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On November 12 2012 16:00 WhatsInAName wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 15:49 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.
Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm. Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered. 2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf. Because it took a while for the meta game to shift? And also some time for other races to see if they can re-adjust? Yes, if you did the same build that zergs are doing now with prepatch queens, hellion runbys would deny creep (they just kite the queens). Which makes the 9 - 9:30 minute tank marine push much more powerful. Zergs had to make a lot of gas units (banes, muta, roach, etc) to defend. They also needed to make spines which slowed their eco. If they didn't, they just died so no infestors. It is like asking why Mvp didn't use mass ghosts in GSL Jan 2011. The meta game just wasn't at the point. But when he did it at Blizzcon, GSL Aug, it was nerfed because it was deemed OP (and it was). The ghosts itself did not change. Maps also play a role. Maps which hard to defend thirds also make teching straight to infestors much harder. Player's skill level as well. One of the reasons muta/ling/bane is not as effective as say the Nestea era is that terrans have gotten much better at defend it with their marine micro. Well I feel like you are making your own questions and answering them. Muta/Ling/Bane just had to get "figured out" then it wasn't as effective, or shall we say OP. How much time must pass before we can decide whether infestor usage and its counters have or haven't been "figured out?" The Blizzcon game was a specific instance of a specific spell abuse in mass quantities. I still don't understand why the discussion is relevant here because an instance of this caliber did not occur in this series.
And how long did zergs have to 'figure out' mass ghosts?
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On November 12 2012 15:59 schaf wrote:my summary: + good players + good games + good casters! + introduction of the SHADOW BRACKET (I love these things!) + qxc yelling at the guy who is eating chicken wings for him + most koreans speaking english on stage interviews (it's just 100x better than translated standard PR blabla) + crowd + ... (your turn, I ran out of things :/ ) - technical issues (wtf guys) - qxc not winning the whole thing  - extended series (meh...) - horrible use of downtime between games: mostly there were just splash screens with or without music, no info when the next games starts and so on... - ... hm tbc
You need to read up on the definition of extended series if you thought that was in play this LSC.
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On November 12 2012 15:52 WhatsInAName wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 15:44 zefreak wrote:On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.
Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm. Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered. 2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf. You are just being difficult. People have been asking for a nerf for a while now, but as zerg players master infestor-broodlord engagements and through experience see just how much army they can cut while teching hard, people are being louder and louder about it. Previously, terran COULD do damage in the very early game if a zerg was greedy. Now, its much easier to defend early aggression vs terran. Even Idra admits this. You realize that many professional zerg players, including some of the best in the world, think the infestor is a problem. They just want viable options that don't rely on it, because without infestor zerg is much weaker. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem. Difficult ----> I don't think so. I'm skeptical about players making calls on balance. It's a conflict of interest. As someone else said a few posts back, the issue is much larger and in fact may not involve infestors at all (or perhaps it has everything to do with infestors). Zerg's have been 15 hatching since day one. So maybe this is greedy, but I don't think so since zerg typically must have more bases than the other races from the get-go. I think Terrans have been more greedy as of late with usually 3 cc builds in seemingly the first few minutes of the game. Nevertheless, Zerg has it's bag of punishes as well.
Part of the problem may be that you don't play the game. 15 hatch isn't the greedy part, its what comes after that. Drone drone drone, delay army/defend with queens while getting mass upgrades/tech, and still pump out an army quickly enough to stop most aggression from terran and protoss.
Terrans are being greedy with 3cc builds because its impossible to punish zerg greed in the early game now. If you cant punish greed, you have to be greedy yourself.
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On November 12 2012 15:49 Alejandrisha wrote:
I haven't felt this good about the usa since the election
well it's only been a week haha 
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On November 12 2012 15:59 schaf wrote:my summary: + good players + good games + good casters! + introduction of the SHADOW BRACKET (I love these things!) + qxc yelling at the guy who is eating chicken wings for him + most koreans speaking english on stage interviews (it's just 100x better than translated standard PR blabla) + crowd + ... (your turn, I ran out of things :/ ) - technical issues (wtf guys) - qxc not winning the whole thing - extended series (meh...) - horrible use of downtime between games: mostly there were just splash screens with or without music, no info when the next games starts and so on... - ... hm tbc
I agree with most of your assessment.
About extended series: Defend your attitude. They seems perfectly logical. Double Elimination tournament means every must be defeated twice. Everyone. This means everyone gets a second chance. Everyone. Why then would the shining player from the upper bracket be DENIED this when every single other person in the tournament has been granted this. That's simply not fair, is it. In fact, out of ALL of the players in the tournament, the one player with an unblemished score should be paraded/celebrated for his accomplishment, not punished.
Now when MLG takes it one step further with the continuity of series, well, that's stretching it too far in my opinion. But I kind of think it makes more sense than PUNISHING the person who should be COMPLIMENTED.
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On November 12 2012 15:49 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.
Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm. Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered. 2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf. Because it took a while for the meta game to shift? And also some time for other races to see if they can re-adjust? Yes, if you did the same build that zergs are doing now with prepatch queens, hellion runbys would deny creep (they just kite the queens). Which makes the 9 - 9:30 minute tank marine push much more powerful. Zergs had to make a lot of gas units (banes, muta, roach, etc) to defend. They also needed to make spines which slowed their eco. If they didn't, they just died so no infestors. It is like asking why Mvp didn't use mass ghosts in GSL Jan 2011. The meta game just wasn't at the point. But when he did it at Blizzcon, GSL Aug, it was nerfed because it was deemed OP (and it was). The ghosts itself did not change. Maps also play a role. Maps which hard to defend thirds also make teching straight to infestors much harder. Player's skill level as well. One of the reasons muta/ling/bane is not as effective as say the Nestea era is that terrans have gotten much better at defend it with their marine micro.
It is true, however, not only MVP used mass ghosts. They were counter to everything zerg had Broods, Infestors, Ultras, Mutas. Now it is being the same with fungal. Or is it? The zerg are on the rise only recently. Season 2 GSL Ro8 had 0 zergs. That was May. Seems like they began to play better. That and some scouting changes and early defense.
However, metagame does not shift in one month. Nor should it. There were many threads - saying what approach should blizz take, and a lot of pros said let the maps balance it out, until it clear. Is it clear now? i dont know. It seems so. However, Infestor is really core unit for zerg as it stands, it glues together everything zerg has for late game. Ultras without infestors ? Sucks. Broodlords without infestors? Pretty huge risk and investment. Banelings without infestors at 200 opponents supply? Not so good.
However, before nerfing infestor into the ground they should consider buffing unused units. Raven needs BIG buff. Reaper could use some utility buff. Carriers should be buffed really good. If that doesnt solve anything about late game, blizz should say - fuck this, nerf em.
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On November 12 2012 16:08 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 16:00 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:49 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.
Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm. Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered. 2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf. Because it took a while for the meta game to shift? And also some time for other races to see if they can re-adjust? Yes, if you did the same build that zergs are doing now with prepatch queens, hellion runbys would deny creep (they just kite the queens). Which makes the 9 - 9:30 minute tank marine push much more powerful. Zergs had to make a lot of gas units (banes, muta, roach, etc) to defend. They also needed to make spines which slowed their eco. If they didn't, they just died so no infestors. It is like asking why Mvp didn't use mass ghosts in GSL Jan 2011. The meta game just wasn't at the point. But when he did it at Blizzcon, GSL Aug, it was nerfed because it was deemed OP (and it was). The ghosts itself did not change. Maps also play a role. Maps which hard to defend thirds also make teching straight to infestors much harder. Player's skill level as well. One of the reasons muta/ling/bane is not as effective as say the Nestea era is that terrans have gotten much better at defend it with their marine micro. Well I feel like you are making your own questions and answering them. Muta/Ling/Bane just had to get "figured out" then it wasn't as effective, or shall we say OP. How much time must pass before we can decide whether infestor usage and its counters have or haven't been "figured out?" The Blizzcon game was a specific instance of a specific spell abuse in mass quantities. I still don't understand why the discussion is relevant here because an instance of this caliber did not occur in this series. And how long did zergs have to 'figure out' mass ghosts?
That change was implemented rather quickly because of the clarity of the problem. In that game, there was CLEAR abuse. The fact that you could snipe any detector in half a millisecond and massacre the slowest, grandest unit of the zerg race just doesn't make sense. In my experience as a spectator, I haven't seen that level of abuse with the infestor.
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On November 12 2012 16:15 NightOfTheDead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 15:49 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.
Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm. Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered. 2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf. Because it took a while for the meta game to shift? And also some time for other races to see if they can re-adjust? Yes, if you did the same build that zergs are doing now with prepatch queens, hellion runbys would deny creep (they just kite the queens). Which makes the 9 - 9:30 minute tank marine push much more powerful. Zergs had to make a lot of gas units (banes, muta, roach, etc) to defend. They also needed to make spines which slowed their eco. If they didn't, they just died so no infestors. It is like asking why Mvp didn't use mass ghosts in GSL Jan 2011. The meta game just wasn't at the point. But when he did it at Blizzcon, GSL Aug, it was nerfed because it was deemed OP (and it was). The ghosts itself did not change. Maps also play a role. Maps which hard to defend thirds also make teching straight to infestors much harder. Player's skill level as well. One of the reasons muta/ling/bane is not as effective as say the Nestea era is that terrans have gotten much better at defend it with their marine micro. It is true, however, not only MVP used mass ghosts. They were counter to everything zerg had Broods, Infestors, Ultras, Mutas. Now it is being the same with fungal. Or is it? The zerg are on the rise only recently. Season 2 GSL Ro8 had 0 zergs. That was May. Seems like they began to play better. That and some scouting changes and early defense. However, metagame does not shift in one month. Nor should it. There were many threads - saying what approach should blizz take, and a lot of pros said let the maps balance it out, until it clear. Is it clear now? i dont know. It seems so. However, Infestor is really core unit for zerg as it stands, it glues together everything zerg has for late game. Ultras without infestors ? Sucks. Broodlords without infestors? Pretty huge risk investment. Banelings without infestors at 200 opponents supply? Not so good. However, before nerfing infestor into the ground they should consider buffing unused units. Raven needs BIG buff. Reaper could use some utility buff. Carriers should be buffed really good. If that doesnt solve anything about late game, blizz should say - fuck this, nerf em.
I would rather they nerf infestor and buff other zerg units if necessary. Let's face it, infestors don't exactly lend themselves towards the kind of play we expect from zerg (multi-front aggression, runbys, backstabs, multitasking). Infestors promote deathball play, and thats what is so frustrating with zerg right now.
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On November 12 2012 16:17 WhatsInAName wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 16:08 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 16:00 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:49 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.
Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm. Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered. 2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf. Because it took a while for the meta game to shift? And also some time for other races to see if they can re-adjust? Yes, if you did the same build that zergs are doing now with prepatch queens, hellion runbys would deny creep (they just kite the queens). Which makes the 9 - 9:30 minute tank marine push much more powerful. Zergs had to make a lot of gas units (banes, muta, roach, etc) to defend. They also needed to make spines which slowed their eco. If they didn't, they just died so no infestors. It is like asking why Mvp didn't use mass ghosts in GSL Jan 2011. The meta game just wasn't at the point. But when he did it at Blizzcon, GSL Aug, it was nerfed because it was deemed OP (and it was). The ghosts itself did not change. Maps also play a role. Maps which hard to defend thirds also make teching straight to infestors much harder. Player's skill level as well. One of the reasons muta/ling/bane is not as effective as say the Nestea era is that terrans have gotten much better at defend it with their marine micro. Well I feel like you are making your own questions and answering them. Muta/Ling/Bane just had to get "figured out" then it wasn't as effective, or shall we say OP. How much time must pass before we can decide whether infestor usage and its counters have or haven't been "figured out?" The Blizzcon game was a specific instance of a specific spell abuse in mass quantities. I still don't understand why the discussion is relevant here because an instance of this caliber did not occur in this series. And how long did zergs have to 'figure out' mass ghosts? That change was implemented rather quickly because of the clarity of the problem. In that game, there was CLEAR abuse. The fact that you could snipe any detector in half a millisecond and massacre the slowest, grandest unit of the zerg race just doesn't make sense. In my experience as a spectator, I haven't seen that level of abuse with the infestor.
I am sure this is how protoss feel when their GRANDEST unit (they can only have 1) gets neuraled and vortex's its own army. Or when fungals just kills all the interceptors for their Capital ships. Or when terrans took the time to make ravens AND save up energy and they just get fungal. They probably feel it is CLEAR abuse as well. How about zergs walking around with spines and spores in their infestor/BL army after all their bases have been destroyed.
There are many example of games where mass infestors in the late game has been CLEARLY abusive.
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On November 12 2012 16:18 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 16:15 NightOfTheDead wrote:On November 12 2012 15:49 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.
Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm. Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered. 2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf. Because it took a while for the meta game to shift? And also some time for other races to see if they can re-adjust? Yes, if you did the same build that zergs are doing now with prepatch queens, hellion runbys would deny creep (they just kite the queens). Which makes the 9 - 9:30 minute tank marine push much more powerful. Zergs had to make a lot of gas units (banes, muta, roach, etc) to defend. They also needed to make spines which slowed their eco. If they didn't, they just died so no infestors. It is like asking why Mvp didn't use mass ghosts in GSL Jan 2011. The meta game just wasn't at the point. But when he did it at Blizzcon, GSL Aug, it was nerfed because it was deemed OP (and it was). The ghosts itself did not change. Maps also play a role. Maps which hard to defend thirds also make teching straight to infestors much harder. Player's skill level as well. One of the reasons muta/ling/bane is not as effective as say the Nestea era is that terrans have gotten much better at defend it with their marine micro. It is true, however, not only MVP used mass ghosts. They were counter to everything zerg had Broods, Infestors, Ultras, Mutas. Now it is being the same with fungal. Or is it? The zerg are on the rise only recently. Season 2 GSL Ro8 had 0 zergs. That was May. Seems like they began to play better. That and some scouting changes and early defense. However, metagame does not shift in one month. Nor should it. There were many threads - saying what approach should blizz take, and a lot of pros said let the maps balance it out, until it clear. Is it clear now? i dont know. It seems so. However, Infestor is really core unit for zerg as it stands, it glues together everything zerg has for late game. Ultras without infestors ? Sucks. Broodlords without infestors? Pretty huge risk investment. Banelings without infestors at 200 opponents supply? Not so good. However, before nerfing infestor into the ground they should consider buffing unused units. Raven needs BIG buff. Reaper could use some utility buff. Carriers should be buffed really good. If that doesnt solve anything about late game, blizz should say - fuck this, nerf em. I would rather they nerf infestor and buff other zerg units if necessary. Let's face it, infestors don't exactly lend themselves towards the kind of play we expect from zerg (multi-front aggression, runbys, backstabs, multitasking). Infestors promote deathball play, and thats what is so frustrating with zerg right now.
Fungal does, yes. Give other tools if you nerf it, imo. However, infested terrans offer backstab plays pretty well, harrasing in enemy base and what not. Im not defending fungal in any way, all im saying that it is no light decision in how you nerf infestors. They werent exactly well designed because all zerg gameplay revolves around it in current metagame.
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On November 12 2012 16:18 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 16:15 NightOfTheDead wrote:On November 12 2012 15:49 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.
Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm. Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered. 2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf. Because it took a while for the meta game to shift? And also some time for other races to see if they can re-adjust? Yes, if you did the same build that zergs are doing now with prepatch queens, hellion runbys would deny creep (they just kite the queens). Which makes the 9 - 9:30 minute tank marine push much more powerful. Zergs had to make a lot of gas units (banes, muta, roach, etc) to defend. They also needed to make spines which slowed their eco. If they didn't, they just died so no infestors. It is like asking why Mvp didn't use mass ghosts in GSL Jan 2011. The meta game just wasn't at the point. But when he did it at Blizzcon, GSL Aug, it was nerfed because it was deemed OP (and it was). The ghosts itself did not change. Maps also play a role. Maps which hard to defend thirds also make teching straight to infestors much harder. Player's skill level as well. One of the reasons muta/ling/bane is not as effective as say the Nestea era is that terrans have gotten much better at defend it with their marine micro. It is true, however, not only MVP used mass ghosts. They were counter to everything zerg had Broods, Infestors, Ultras, Mutas. Now it is being the same with fungal. Or is it? The zerg are on the rise only recently. Season 2 GSL Ro8 had 0 zergs. That was May. Seems like they began to play better. That and some scouting changes and early defense. However, metagame does not shift in one month. Nor should it. There were many threads - saying what approach should blizz take, and a lot of pros said let the maps balance it out, until it clear. Is it clear now? i dont know. It seems so. However, Infestor is really core unit for zerg as it stands, it glues together everything zerg has for late game. Ultras without infestors ? Sucks. Broodlords without infestors? Pretty huge risk investment. Banelings without infestors at 200 opponents supply? Not so good. However, before nerfing infestor into the ground they should consider buffing unused units. Raven needs BIG buff. Reaper could use some utility buff. Carriers should be buffed really good. If that doesnt solve anything about late game, blizz should say - fuck this, nerf em. I would rather they nerf infestor and buff other zerg units if necessary. Let's face it, infestors don't exactly lend themselves towards the kind of play we expect from zerg (multi-front aggression, runbys, backstabs, multitasking). Infestors promote deathball play, and thats what is so frustrating with zerg right now.
Well, that's interesting. Infestors don't promote deathball play. In fact, they counter deathball play. Fungal is designed to disarm a deathball in fact.
As for your other sentence:
There is:
-burrowed infestor harassment (multitasking+runby+multi-front aggression)
-burrowed infestor siegetank bate (multi-front aggression) - especially the way Stephano uses them, putting infestors just below the terran army.
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Stephano such a beast !! Yeah !!!!!
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On November 12 2012 16:25 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 16:17 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 16:08 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 16:00 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:49 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.
Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm. Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered. 2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf. Because it took a while for the meta game to shift? And also some time for other races to see if they can re-adjust? Yes, if you did the same build that zergs are doing now with prepatch queens, hellion runbys would deny creep (they just kite the queens). Which makes the 9 - 9:30 minute tank marine push much more powerful. Zergs had to make a lot of gas units (banes, muta, roach, etc) to defend. They also needed to make spines which slowed their eco. If they didn't, they just died so no infestors. It is like asking why Mvp didn't use mass ghosts in GSL Jan 2011. The meta game just wasn't at the point. But when he did it at Blizzcon, GSL Aug, it was nerfed because it was deemed OP (and it was). The ghosts itself did not change. Maps also play a role. Maps which hard to defend thirds also make teching straight to infestors much harder. Player's skill level as well. One of the reasons muta/ling/bane is not as effective as say the Nestea era is that terrans have gotten much better at defend it with their marine micro. Well I feel like you are making your own questions and answering them. Muta/Ling/Bane just had to get "figured out" then it wasn't as effective, or shall we say OP. How much time must pass before we can decide whether infestor usage and its counters have or haven't been "figured out?" The Blizzcon game was a specific instance of a specific spell abuse in mass quantities. I still don't understand why the discussion is relevant here because an instance of this caliber did not occur in this series. And how long did zergs have to 'figure out' mass ghosts? That change was implemented rather quickly because of the clarity of the problem. In that game, there was CLEAR abuse. The fact that you could snipe any detector in half a millisecond and massacre the slowest, grandest unit of the zerg race just doesn't make sense. In my experience as a spectator, I haven't seen that level of abuse with the infestor. I am sure this is how protoss feel when their GRANDEST unit (they can only have 1) gets neuraled and vortex's its own army. Or when fungals just kills all the interceptors for their Capital ships. Or when terrans took the time to make ravens AND save up energy and they just get fungal. They probably feel it is CLEAR abuse as well. How about zergs walking around with spines and spores in their infestor/BL army after all their bases have been destroyed. There are many example of games where mass infestors in the late game has been CLEARLY abusive.
Hmm.. Then I just haven't seen those games. I watch really only professional level games and haven't seen this kind of mass infestor abuse. They are always a pretty standard mix in the zerg army.
This is the LSC thread, so I don't see how those arguments are even relevant to the Stephano v. Bomber games.
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On November 12 2012 16:45 WhatsInAName wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 16:25 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 16:17 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 16:08 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 16:00 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:49 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.
Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm. Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered. 2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf. Because it took a while for the meta game to shift? And also some time for other races to see if they can re-adjust? Yes, if you did the same build that zergs are doing now with prepatch queens, hellion runbys would deny creep (they just kite the queens). Which makes the 9 - 9:30 minute tank marine push much more powerful. Zergs had to make a lot of gas units (banes, muta, roach, etc) to defend. They also needed to make spines which slowed their eco. If they didn't, they just died so no infestors. It is like asking why Mvp didn't use mass ghosts in GSL Jan 2011. The meta game just wasn't at the point. But when he did it at Blizzcon, GSL Aug, it was nerfed because it was deemed OP (and it was). The ghosts itself did not change. Maps also play a role. Maps which hard to defend thirds also make teching straight to infestors much harder. Player's skill level as well. One of the reasons muta/ling/bane is not as effective as say the Nestea era is that terrans have gotten much better at defend it with their marine micro. Well I feel like you are making your own questions and answering them. Muta/Ling/Bane just had to get "figured out" then it wasn't as effective, or shall we say OP. How much time must pass before we can decide whether infestor usage and its counters have or haven't been "figured out?" The Blizzcon game was a specific instance of a specific spell abuse in mass quantities. I still don't understand why the discussion is relevant here because an instance of this caliber did not occur in this series. And how long did zergs have to 'figure out' mass ghosts? That change was implemented rather quickly because of the clarity of the problem. In that game, there was CLEAR abuse. The fact that you could snipe any detector in half a millisecond and massacre the slowest, grandest unit of the zerg race just doesn't make sense. In my experience as a spectator, I haven't seen that level of abuse with the infestor. I am sure this is how protoss feel when their GRANDEST unit (they can only have 1) gets neuraled and vortex's its own army. Or when fungals just kills all the interceptors for their Capital ships. Or when terrans took the time to make ravens AND save up energy and they just get fungal. They probably feel it is CLEAR abuse as well. How about zergs walking around with spines and spores in their infestor/BL army after all their bases have been destroyed. There are many example of games where mass infestors in the late game has been CLEARLY abusive. Hmm.. Then I just haven't seen those games. I watch really only professional level games and haven't seen this kind of mass infestor abuse. They are always a pretty standard mix in the zerg army. This is the LSC thread, so I don't see how those arguments are even relevant to the Stephano v. Bomber games.
You don't watch professional level games if you haven't seen what he is talking about. Do you watch GSL/GSTL/OSL?
Anyone who watches high level PvZ knows what he is talking about. You apparently don't.
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good job by stephano, even though he got lucky with not getting any zvz's.
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On November 12 2012 16:41 WhatsInAName wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 16:18 zefreak wrote:On November 12 2012 16:15 NightOfTheDead wrote:On November 12 2012 15:49 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.
Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm. Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered. 2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf. Because it took a while for the meta game to shift? And also some time for other races to see if they can re-adjust? Yes, if you did the same build that zergs are doing now with prepatch queens, hellion runbys would deny creep (they just kite the queens). Which makes the 9 - 9:30 minute tank marine push much more powerful. Zergs had to make a lot of gas units (banes, muta, roach, etc) to defend. They also needed to make spines which slowed their eco. If they didn't, they just died so no infestors. It is like asking why Mvp didn't use mass ghosts in GSL Jan 2011. The meta game just wasn't at the point. But when he did it at Blizzcon, GSL Aug, it was nerfed because it was deemed OP (and it was). The ghosts itself did not change. Maps also play a role. Maps which hard to defend thirds also make teching straight to infestors much harder. Player's skill level as well. One of the reasons muta/ling/bane is not as effective as say the Nestea era is that terrans have gotten much better at defend it with their marine micro. It is true, however, not only MVP used mass ghosts. They were counter to everything zerg had Broods, Infestors, Ultras, Mutas. Now it is being the same with fungal. Or is it? The zerg are on the rise only recently. Season 2 GSL Ro8 had 0 zergs. That was May. Seems like they began to play better. That and some scouting changes and early defense. However, metagame does not shift in one month. Nor should it. There were many threads - saying what approach should blizz take, and a lot of pros said let the maps balance it out, until it clear. Is it clear now? i dont know. It seems so. However, Infestor is really core unit for zerg as it stands, it glues together everything zerg has for late game. Ultras without infestors ? Sucks. Broodlords without infestors? Pretty huge risk investment. Banelings without infestors at 200 opponents supply? Not so good. However, before nerfing infestor into the ground they should consider buffing unused units. Raven needs BIG buff. Reaper could use some utility buff. Carriers should be buffed really good. If that doesnt solve anything about late game, blizz should say - fuck this, nerf em. I would rather they nerf infestor and buff other zerg units if necessary. Let's face it, infestors don't exactly lend themselves towards the kind of play we expect from zerg (multi-front aggression, runbys, backstabs, multitasking). Infestors promote deathball play, and thats what is so frustrating with zerg right now. Well, that's interesting. Infestors don't promote deathball play. In fact, they counter deathball play. Fungal is designed to disarm a deathball in fact. As for your other sentence: There is: -burrowed infestor harassment (multitasking+runby+multi-front aggression) -burrowed infestor siegetank bate (multi-front aggression) - especially the way Stephano uses them, putting infestors just below the terran army.
They promote deathball play because they are expensive and you never want them alone without support unless you are going for burrow harass. If you actually watch games that get to hive tech, itll be a ball of broodlord corruptor with a ball of infestors underneath, moving about in a ball.
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On November 12 2012 16:48 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 16:45 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 16:25 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 16:17 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 16:08 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 16:00 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:49 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.
Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm. Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered. 2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf. Because it took a while for the meta game to shift? And also some time for other races to see if they can re-adjust? Yes, if you did the same build that zergs are doing now with prepatch queens, hellion runbys would deny creep (they just kite the queens). Which makes the 9 - 9:30 minute tank marine push much more powerful. Zergs had to make a lot of gas units (banes, muta, roach, etc) to defend. They also needed to make spines which slowed their eco. If they didn't, they just died so no infestors. It is like asking why Mvp didn't use mass ghosts in GSL Jan 2011. The meta game just wasn't at the point. But when he did it at Blizzcon, GSL Aug, it was nerfed because it was deemed OP (and it was). The ghosts itself did not change. Maps also play a role. Maps which hard to defend thirds also make teching straight to infestors much harder. Player's skill level as well. One of the reasons muta/ling/bane is not as effective as say the Nestea era is that terrans have gotten much better at defend it with their marine micro. Well I feel like you are making your own questions and answering them. Muta/Ling/Bane just had to get "figured out" then it wasn't as effective, or shall we say OP. How much time must pass before we can decide whether infestor usage and its counters have or haven't been "figured out?" The Blizzcon game was a specific instance of a specific spell abuse in mass quantities. I still don't understand why the discussion is relevant here because an instance of this caliber did not occur in this series. And how long did zergs have to 'figure out' mass ghosts? That change was implemented rather quickly because of the clarity of the problem. In that game, there was CLEAR abuse. The fact that you could snipe any detector in half a millisecond and massacre the slowest, grandest unit of the zerg race just doesn't make sense. In my experience as a spectator, I haven't seen that level of abuse with the infestor. I am sure this is how protoss feel when their GRANDEST unit (they can only have 1) gets neuraled and vortex's its own army. Or when fungals just kills all the interceptors for their Capital ships. Or when terrans took the time to make ravens AND save up energy and they just get fungal. They probably feel it is CLEAR abuse as well. How about zergs walking around with spines and spores in their infestor/BL army after all their bases have been destroyed. There are many example of games where mass infestors in the late game has been CLEARLY abusive. Hmm.. Then I just haven't seen those games. I watch really only professional level games and haven't seen this kind of mass infestor abuse. They are always a pretty standard mix in the zerg army. This is the LSC thread, so I don't see how those arguments are even relevant to the Stephano v. Bomber games. You don't watch professional level games if you haven't seen what he is talking about. Do you watch GSL/GSTL/OSL? Anyone who watches high level PvZ knows what he is talking about. You apparently don't.
You're doing great. Here is your assignment. Find three games in the GSL/GSTL/OSL that have clear infestor abuse, preferably to the level of the mvp blizzcon game and post them in the ongoing discussion in a relevant thread (or perhaps make your own would also work) regarding fixing infestors. These games will then suffice as evidence for abuse and might lead blizzard in a forward direction regarding the changes.
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On November 12 2012 16:12 WhatsInAName wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 15:59 schaf wrote:my summary: + good players + good games + good casters! + introduction of the SHADOW BRACKET (I love these things!) + qxc yelling at the guy who is eating chicken wings for him + most koreans speaking english on stage interviews (it's just 100x better than translated standard PR blabla) + crowd + ... (your turn, I ran out of things :/ ) - technical issues (wtf guys) - qxc not winning the whole thing - extended series (meh...) - horrible use of downtime between games: mostly there were just splash screens with or without music, no info when the next games starts and so on... - ... hm tbc I agree with most of your assessment. About extended series: Defend your attitude. They seems perfectly logical. Double Elimination tournament means every must be defeated twice. Everyone. This means everyone gets a second chance. Everyone. Why then would the shining player from the upper bracket be DENIED this when every single other person in the tournament has been granted this. That's simply not fair, is it. In fact, out of ALL of the players in the tournament, the one player with an unblemished score should be paraded/celebrated for his accomplishment, not punished. Now when MLG takes it one step further with the continuity of series, well, that's stretching it too far in my opinion. But I kind of think it makes more sense than PUNISHING the person who should be COMPLIMENTED.
Hmmm... I agree but it just doesn't feel right to have a player come into the grand finals with that kind of drawback. Maybe it's just me, but I was routing for Bomber and although the final score was 4-4, he lost.
I think it's more of a storyline (and thus "stomach") thing, it's cool to see a player like Bomber 2-0'ing through the lower bracket game after game and then have him finally face off against the strongest player in the tournament. He had to play 7 sets before the finals vs. Stephano's 4, so there is already a drawback. On the other hand, without the extended series rule in the final set it would be kind of disappointing to have a player lose in the upper bracket's finals, win the lower bracket's finals and then come on even terms with the guy he lost to like half an hour ago.
So, all in all I have to agree with you, but it just doesn't feel right  - It's just that the finals is not on even terms, I think that is what I dislike. Still, great showing from both Stephano and Bomber and in the end I think the better player won.
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On November 12 2012 16:52 WhatsInAName wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 16:48 zefreak wrote:On November 12 2012 16:45 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 16:25 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 16:17 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 16:08 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 16:00 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:49 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:
[quote]
Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered.
2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf. Because it took a while for the meta game to shift? And also some time for other races to see if they can re-adjust? Yes, if you did the same build that zergs are doing now with prepatch queens, hellion runbys would deny creep (they just kite the queens). Which makes the 9 - 9:30 minute tank marine push much more powerful. Zergs had to make a lot of gas units (banes, muta, roach, etc) to defend. They also needed to make spines which slowed their eco. If they didn't, they just died so no infestors. It is like asking why Mvp didn't use mass ghosts in GSL Jan 2011. The meta game just wasn't at the point. But when he did it at Blizzcon, GSL Aug, it was nerfed because it was deemed OP (and it was). The ghosts itself did not change. Maps also play a role. Maps which hard to defend thirds also make teching straight to infestors much harder. Player's skill level as well. One of the reasons muta/ling/bane is not as effective as say the Nestea era is that terrans have gotten much better at defend it with their marine micro. Well I feel like you are making your own questions and answering them. Muta/Ling/Bane just had to get "figured out" then it wasn't as effective, or shall we say OP. How much time must pass before we can decide whether infestor usage and its counters have or haven't been "figured out?" The Blizzcon game was a specific instance of a specific spell abuse in mass quantities. I still don't understand why the discussion is relevant here because an instance of this caliber did not occur in this series. And how long did zergs have to 'figure out' mass ghosts? That change was implemented rather quickly because of the clarity of the problem. In that game, there was CLEAR abuse. The fact that you could snipe any detector in half a millisecond and massacre the slowest, grandest unit of the zerg race just doesn't make sense. In my experience as a spectator, I haven't seen that level of abuse with the infestor. I am sure this is how protoss feel when their GRANDEST unit (they can only have 1) gets neuraled and vortex's its own army. Or when fungals just kills all the interceptors for their Capital ships. Or when terrans took the time to make ravens AND save up energy and they just get fungal. They probably feel it is CLEAR abuse as well. How about zergs walking around with spines and spores in their infestor/BL army after all their bases have been destroyed. There are many example of games where mass infestors in the late game has been CLEARLY abusive. Hmm.. Then I just haven't seen those games. I watch really only professional level games and haven't seen this kind of mass infestor abuse. They are always a pretty standard mix in the zerg army. This is the LSC thread, so I don't see how those arguments are even relevant to the Stephano v. Bomber games. You don't watch professional level games if you haven't seen what he is talking about. Do you watch GSL/GSTL/OSL? Anyone who watches high level PvZ knows what he is talking about. You apparently don't. You're doing great. Here is your assignment. Find three games in the GSL/GSTL/OSL that have clear infestor abuse, preferably to the level of the mvp blizzcon game and post them in the ongoing discussion in a relevant thread (or perhaps make your own would also work) regarding fixing infestors. These games will then suffice as evidence for abuse and might lead blizzard in a forward direction regarding the changes.
well, there was that game HerO vs. Leenock on Antiga, where Leenock just got outplayed in every single aspect of the game and in the big engagement he neuraled the mommaship, vortexed HerOs army and stomped it. I found that pretty abusive, you can't keep back the MS in a big engagement because you have to cloak your units and hit them vortexes (vortices? :D ). I think last GSL season RO32 CODE S?
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On November 12 2012 16:49 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 16:41 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 16:18 zefreak wrote:On November 12 2012 16:15 NightOfTheDead wrote:On November 12 2012 15:49 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.
Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm. Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered. 2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf. Because it took a while for the meta game to shift? And also some time for other races to see if they can re-adjust? Yes, if you did the same build that zergs are doing now with prepatch queens, hellion runbys would deny creep (they just kite the queens). Which makes the 9 - 9:30 minute tank marine push much more powerful. Zergs had to make a lot of gas units (banes, muta, roach, etc) to defend. They also needed to make spines which slowed their eco. If they didn't, they just died so no infestors. It is like asking why Mvp didn't use mass ghosts in GSL Jan 2011. The meta game just wasn't at the point. But when he did it at Blizzcon, GSL Aug, it was nerfed because it was deemed OP (and it was). The ghosts itself did not change. Maps also play a role. Maps which hard to defend thirds also make teching straight to infestors much harder. Player's skill level as well. One of the reasons muta/ling/bane is not as effective as say the Nestea era is that terrans have gotten much better at defend it with their marine micro. It is true, however, not only MVP used mass ghosts. They were counter to everything zerg had Broods, Infestors, Ultras, Mutas. Now it is being the same with fungal. Or is it? The zerg are on the rise only recently. Season 2 GSL Ro8 had 0 zergs. That was May. Seems like they began to play better. That and some scouting changes and early defense. However, metagame does not shift in one month. Nor should it. There were many threads - saying what approach should blizz take, and a lot of pros said let the maps balance it out, until it clear. Is it clear now? i dont know. It seems so. However, Infestor is really core unit for zerg as it stands, it glues together everything zerg has for late game. Ultras without infestors ? Sucks. Broodlords without infestors? Pretty huge risk investment. Banelings without infestors at 200 opponents supply? Not so good. However, before nerfing infestor into the ground they should consider buffing unused units. Raven needs BIG buff. Reaper could use some utility buff. Carriers should be buffed really good. If that doesnt solve anything about late game, blizz should say - fuck this, nerf em. I would rather they nerf infestor and buff other zerg units if necessary. Let's face it, infestors don't exactly lend themselves towards the kind of play we expect from zerg (multi-front aggression, runbys, backstabs, multitasking). Infestors promote deathball play, and thats what is so frustrating with zerg right now. Well, that's interesting. Infestors don't promote deathball play. In fact, they counter deathball play. Fungal is designed to disarm a deathball in fact. As for your other sentence: There is: -burrowed infestor harassment (multitasking+runby+multi-front aggression) -burrowed infestor siegetank bate (multi-front aggression) - especially the way Stephano uses them, putting infestors just below the terran army. They promote deathball play because they are expensive and you never want them alone without support unless you are going for burrow harass. If you actually watch games that get to hive tech, itll be a ball of broodlord corruptor with a ball of infestors underneath, moving about in a ball.
With regards to terran and protoss, infestors PUNISH deathball play. This is obvious.
With regards to zerg's own army formation with infestors, perhaps in the BL+Infestor composition, it is appropriete for them to bundle up. Protoss vortex and the forgotten Terran EMP PUNISH zerg deathball play.
I suppose we are both kind of right in this situation.
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I don't have to, other people are already doing it and Blizzard is looking at fixing the problem.
My only goal is to fix your misunderstanding, although i'm beginning to think your mind is set and that I should stop caring what you think. Have fun 'watching professional games yet never seeing mass infestor counter carriers or a protoss army vortexed by a neuraled mothership' (What? Is that even possible?)
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EPT
