• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 11:38
CEST 17:38
KST 00:38
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!9[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Evil Geniuses - shutting down10ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier5Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1[$1250] International ShieldBattery League53Weekly Cups (October 5-11): Farewell to 5.0.166
StarCraft 2
General
REPORT: StarCraft 2: Remastered In Development Weekly Cups (October 5-11): Farewell to 5.0.16 No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? Evil Geniuses - shutting down How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR?
Tourneys
RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event WORTEX Challenger Series — Open SC2 LAN in Budapes
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 548 Shining Bright The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 547 Temple Of Terror Mutation # 546 Catch the Train
Brood War
General
Sagi.gg Launcher Released Do we even care about balance? [Megathread] Daily Funny Videos Rollback Netcode in Brood War BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[BSL23] RO24 Group Stage KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4 [ASL22] Grand Finals [$1250] International ShieldBattery League
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers Replay Review Process - What do you do?
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Armies of Exigo - YesYes? Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI The Chess Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion!
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
How Much Genes Contribute to…
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8177 users

Lone Star Clash 2: $35k SC2 + LoL, Nov 10-11 in TX - Page…

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
11212 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 554 555 556 557 558 561 Next
ladyumbra
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Canada1699 Posts
November 12 2012 06:43 GMT
#11101
On November 12 2012 15:15 vthree wrote:
Actually, some meta changes were brought on by maps in BW. That is why you see a lot of mirrors in PL, some maps just favor certain races. In SC2, terrain (and thus maps) doesn't make as much difference. Also, a lot of the maps we have now are pretty similiar (relatively easy thirds and a pretty accessible fourth). That is why zergs find Antiga so difficult, the 4th is either exposed (center) or really far to defend by ground (edge expos).


Having race favoured maps in sc2 seems to just create more problems then they solve. I remember calm before the storm was supposed to help struggling protoss in gsl but it just made terrans all-in them harder although the map did produce some really nice mech vs mech TvT games. Bel'shir I think was introduced to help zergs but it was problematic to pvp on etc etc.

I do wish we could have more maps with more interesting setups but everyone seems to think the current setup is the most fair.
zefreak
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States2731 Posts
November 12 2012 06:44 GMT
#11102
On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.

Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm.


Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered.


2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf.


You are just being difficult. People have been asking for a nerf for a while now, but as zerg players master infestor-broodlord engagements and through experience see just how much army they can cut while teching hard, people are being louder and louder about it.

Previously, terran COULD do damage in the very early game if a zerg was greedy. Now, its much easier to defend early aggression vs terran. Even Idra admits this.

You realize that many professional zerg players, including some of the best in the world, think the infestor is a problem. They just want viable options that don't rely on it, because without infestor zerg is much weaker. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem.
www.gosu-sc.com - Starcraft News, Strategy and Merchandise
ssxsilver
Profile Joined June 2007
United States4409 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-12 06:46:05
November 12 2012 06:44 GMT
#11103
On November 12 2012 15:37 zefreak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2012 15:35 WhatsInAName wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:29 zefreak wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.

Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm.


Metagame changes, other units changed affecting the matchup. It's not as simple as you think


Metagame changes ----> Not infestor's fault. Just implies that people haven't re-figured out how to combat intelligently.

Other units changed affecting the matchup -----> Please, continue.


The metagame has evolved in such a way that infestors are being abused far more than ever before. Any possible imbalances caused by the infestor weren't readily apparent before. They are now.



So if we brought back Steppes of War and inferior Terran players win with 100% predictable SCV pulls, you'd respond with "people just have to figure it out" also?
zefreak
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States2731 Posts
November 12 2012 06:46 GMT
#11104
On November 12 2012 15:44 ssxsilver wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2012 15:37 zefreak wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:35 WhatsInAName wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:29 zefreak wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.

Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm.


Metagame changes, other units changed affecting the matchup. It's not as simple as you think


Metagame changes ----> Not infestor's fault. Just implies that people haven't re-figured out how to combat intelligently.

Other units changed affecting the matchup -----> Please, continue.


The metagame has evolved in such a way that infestors are being abused far more than ever before. Any possible imbalances caused by the infestor weren't readily apparent before. They are now.



So if we brought back Steppes of War and inferior Terran players win with 100% predictable SCV pulls you'd respond with "people just have to figure it out" also?


Are you responding to me? I don't think you understood my post. That isn't what I'm saying at all. I think infestor should be changed and don't think its just a metagame shift.
www.gosu-sc.com - Starcraft News, Strategy and Merchandise
ssxsilver
Profile Joined June 2007
United States4409 Posts
November 12 2012 06:46 GMT
#11105
On November 12 2012 15:46 zefreak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2012 15:44 ssxsilver wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:37 zefreak wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:35 WhatsInAName wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:29 zefreak wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.

Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm.


Metagame changes, other units changed affecting the matchup. It's not as simple as you think


Metagame changes ----> Not infestor's fault. Just implies that people haven't re-figured out how to combat intelligently.

Other units changed affecting the matchup -----> Please, continue.


The metagame has evolved in such a way that infestors are being abused far more than ever before. Any possible imbalances caused by the infestor weren't readily apparent before. They are now.



So if we brought back Steppes of War and inferior Terran players win with 100% predictable SCV pulls you'd respond with "people just have to figure it out" also?


Are you responding to me? I don't think you understood my post. That isn't what I'm saying at all. I think infestor should be changed and don't think its just a metagame shift.


Whoops wrong quote =P. I was responding to the other guy.
zefreak
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States2731 Posts
November 12 2012 06:47 GMT
#11106
On November 12 2012 15:43 WhatsInAName wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2012 15:37 zefreak wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:35 WhatsInAName wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:29 zefreak wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.

Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm.


Metagame changes, other units changed affecting the matchup. It's not as simple as you think


Metagame changes ----> Not infestor's fault. Just implies that people haven't re-figured out how to combat intelligently.

Other units changed affecting the matchup -----> Please, continue.


The metagame has evolved in such a way that infestors are being abused far more than ever before. Any possible imbalances caused by the infestor weren't readily apparent before. They are now.



Great. Please explain ------> how Stephano's apparent "infestor abuse" in this tournament is relevant to the discussion of the infestor being to strong. Because in my opinion, Stephano did not abuse the infestor. He barely made them in fact (less than usual). The final 2-3 fungals at the end of the last game (when stephano was already ahead after his surprise bl transition) were clearly taking advantage of the fact Bomber mis-used his inexorability high number of marines by clumping them.

Could it be possible that the metagame just has to shift in favor of another race. Should metagame shifts be instigated by Blizzard or by innovative players?


I don't think Stephano won because of infestors, particularly in the last match. I don't know why you think I am. If we are just talking general balance though, yes.
www.gosu-sc.com - Starcraft News, Strategy and Merchandise
WhatsInAName
Profile Joined November 2012
United States49 Posts
November 12 2012 06:48 GMT
#11107
On November 12 2012 15:41 Dodgin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.

Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm.


Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered.


2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf.


Complaining about Zerg has been going on constantly since the Queen patch, although the complaints have recently shifted from the queen range and overlord speed to the Infestor instead.

Check out this thread from June, about one month after the patch dropped: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346544


Yes interesting. Well, then if you are correct, the problem cannot be solved by fixing infestors alone. The problem is MUCH bigger. Could it be that Blizzard overpowers one unit in an update then must compensate by nerfing another unit in the game? Thus shifting the total design and construct of the original intention of units. Perhaps it is right, zerg has been subtlely getting strong since the queen patch with other upgrades. Perhaps it is more effective to change the things that caused this imbalance rather than a random unit that hasn't been changed for over a year. I don't know.
Alejandrisha
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6566 Posts
November 12 2012 06:49 GMT
#11108
I haven't felt this good about the usa since the election
get rich or die mining
TL+ Member
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
November 12 2012 06:49 GMT
#11109
On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.

Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm.


Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered.


2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf.


Because it took a while for the meta game to shift? And also some time for other races to see if they can re-adjust?

Yes, if you did the same build that zergs are doing now with prepatch queens, hellion runbys would deny creep (they just kite the queens). Which makes the 9 - 9:30 minute tank marine push much more powerful. Zergs had to make a lot of gas units (banes, muta, roach, etc) to defend. They also needed to make spines which slowed their eco. If they didn't, they just died so no infestors.

It is like asking why Mvp didn't use mass ghosts in GSL Jan 2011. The meta game just wasn't at the point. But when he did it at Blizzcon, GSL Aug, it was nerfed because it was deemed OP (and it was). The ghosts itself did not change. Maps also play a role. Maps which hard to defend thirds also make teching straight to infestors much harder. Player's skill level as well. One of the reasons muta/ling/bane is not as effective as say the Nestea era is that terrans have gotten much better at defend it with their marine micro.


zefreak
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States2731 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-12 06:52:20
November 12 2012 06:50 GMT
#11110
On November 12 2012 15:48 WhatsInAName wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2012 15:41 Dodgin wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.

Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm.


Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered.


2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf.


Complaining about Zerg has been going on constantly since the Queen patch, although the complaints have recently shifted from the queen range and overlord speed to the Infestor instead.

Check out this thread from June, about one month after the patch dropped: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346544


Yes interesting. Well, then if you are correct, the problem cannot be solved by fixing infestors alone. The problem is MUCH bigger. Could it be that Blizzard overpowers one unit in an update then must compensate by nerfing another unit in the game? Thus shifting the total design and construct of the original intention of units. Perhaps it is right, zerg has been subtlely getting strong since the queen patch with other upgrades. Perhaps it is more effective to change the things that caused this imbalance rather than a random unit that hasn't been changed for over a year. I don't know.


Whatever happened, infestors are not well-designed, even if they didn't cause imbalance. They are much too useful in every matchup, and have way too much utility.

edit: I'll stop balance/design discussion in this thread because it doesn't really belong here.
www.gosu-sc.com - Starcraft News, Strategy and Merchandise
WhatsInAName
Profile Joined November 2012
United States49 Posts
November 12 2012 06:52 GMT
#11111
On November 12 2012 15:44 zefreak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.

Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm.


Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered.


2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf.


You are just being difficult. People have been asking for a nerf for a while now, but as zerg players master infestor-broodlord engagements and through experience see just how much army they can cut while teching hard, people are being louder and louder about it.

Previously, terran COULD do damage in the very early game if a zerg was greedy. Now, its much easier to defend early aggression vs terran. Even Idra admits this.

You realize that many professional zerg players, including some of the best in the world, think the infestor is a problem. They just want viable options that don't rely on it, because without infestor zerg is much weaker. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem.


Difficult ----> I don't think so.

I'm skeptical about players making calls on balance. It's a conflict of interest. As someone else said a few posts back, the issue is much larger and in fact may not involve infestors at all (or perhaps it has everything to do with infestors). Zerg's have been 15 hatching since day one. So maybe this is greedy, but I don't think so since zerg typically must have more bases than the other races from the get-go. I think Terrans have been more greedy as of late with usually 3 cc builds in seemingly the first few minutes of the game. Nevertheless, Zerg has it's bag of punishes as well.
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
November 12 2012 06:56 GMT
#11112
On November 12 2012 15:48 WhatsInAName wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2012 15:41 Dodgin wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.

Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm.


Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered.


2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf.


Complaining about Zerg has been going on constantly since the Queen patch, although the complaints have recently shifted from the queen range and overlord speed to the Infestor instead.

Check out this thread from June, about one month after the patch dropped: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346544


Yes interesting. Well, then if you are correct, the problem cannot be solved by fixing infestors alone. The problem is MUCH bigger. Could it be that Blizzard overpowers one unit in an update then must compensate by nerfing another unit in the game? Thus shifting the total design and construct of the original intention of units. Perhaps it is right, zerg has been subtlely getting strong since the queen patch with other upgrades. Perhaps it is more effective to change the things that caused this imbalance rather than a random unit that hasn't been changed for over a year. I don't know.


Well, the Queen patch did stabilize the early mid game in TvZ. Zergs did died A LOT due to good early/mid game pushes from terran. Now that the early game has been 'fixed', we are starting to see some issues with infestors/BL in late game. Maybe the fix is with the infestor directly? or maybe buffing terran/protoss counters. But generally, it is easier to tweak one units compare to tweaking everything else around it.
Gator
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States3432 Posts
November 12 2012 06:56 GMT
#11113
does anyone know what the number for the queen buff patch was?
TSM
Dodgin
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada39254 Posts
November 12 2012 06:58 GMT
#11114
On November 12 2012 15:56 Gator wrote:
does anyone know what the number for the queen buff patch was?


Patch 1.4.3 BU

May 10th 2012
schaf
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1326 Posts
November 12 2012 06:59 GMT
#11115
my summary:

+ good players
+ good games
+ good casters!
+ introduction of the SHADOW BRACKET (I love these things!)
+ qxc yelling at the guy who is eating chicken wings for him
+ most koreans speaking english on stage interviews (it's just 100x better than translated standard PR blabla)
+ crowd
+ ... (your turn, I ran out of things :/ )


- technical issues (wtf guys)
- qxc not winning the whole thing
- extended series (meh...)
- horrible use of downtime between games: mostly there were just splash screens with or without music, no info when the next games starts and so on...
- ... hm

tbc
Axiom wins more than it loses. Most viewers don't. - <3 TB
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
November 12 2012 06:59 GMT
#11116
On November 12 2012 15:52 WhatsInAName wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2012 15:44 zefreak wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.

Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm.


Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered.


2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf.


You are just being difficult. People have been asking for a nerf for a while now, but as zerg players master infestor-broodlord engagements and through experience see just how much army they can cut while teching hard, people are being louder and louder about it.

Previously, terran COULD do damage in the very early game if a zerg was greedy. Now, its much easier to defend early aggression vs terran. Even Idra admits this.

You realize that many professional zerg players, including some of the best in the world, think the infestor is a problem. They just want viable options that don't rely on it, because without infestor zerg is much weaker. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem.


Difficult ----> I don't think so.

I'm skeptical about players making calls on balance. It's a conflict of interest. As someone else said a few posts back, the issue is much larger and in fact may not involve infestors at all (or perhaps it has everything to do with infestors). Zerg's have been 15 hatching since day one. So maybe this is greedy, but I don't think so since zerg typically must have more bases than the other races from the get-go. I think Terrans have been more greedy as of late with usually 3 cc builds in seemingly the first few minutes of the game. Nevertheless, Zerg has it's bag of punishes as well.


And everyone has a conflict of interest. You can be a Stephano fan and feel zerg is fine. Or I can be a Bomber fan and think it is not. It is almost impossible to find a neutral person who is knowledgable enough to make balance calls. But even zergs pros have been saying there is a problem with BL/infestors. And I don't think they enjoy HAVING to go that composition to win.
WhatsInAName
Profile Joined November 2012
United States49 Posts
November 12 2012 07:00 GMT
#11117
On November 12 2012 15:49 vthree wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.

Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm.


Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered.


2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf.


Because it took a while for the meta game to shift? And also some time for other races to see if they can re-adjust?

Yes, if you did the same build that zergs are doing now with prepatch queens, hellion runbys would deny creep (they just kite the queens). Which makes the 9 - 9:30 minute tank marine push much more powerful. Zergs had to make a lot of gas units (banes, muta, roach, etc) to defend. They also needed to make spines which slowed their eco. If they didn't, they just died so no infestors.

It is like asking why Mvp didn't use mass ghosts in GSL Jan 2011. The meta game just wasn't at the point. But when he did it at Blizzcon, GSL Aug, it was nerfed because it was deemed OP (and it was). The ghosts itself did not change. Maps also play a role. Maps which hard to defend thirds also make teching straight to infestors much harder. Player's skill level as well. One of the reasons muta/ling/bane is not as effective as say the Nestea era is that terrans have gotten much better at defend it with their marine micro.




Well I feel like you are making your own questions and answering them. Muta/Ling/Bane just had to get "figured out" then it wasn't as effective, or shall we say OP. How much time must pass before we can decide whether infestor usage and its counters have or haven't been "figured out?"

The Blizzcon game was a specific instance of a specific spell abuse in mass quantities. I still don't understand why the discussion is relevant here because an instance of this caliber did not occur in this series.
eviltomahawk
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States11135 Posts
November 12 2012 07:05 GMT
#11118
On November 12 2012 15:59 schaf wrote:
my summary:

+ good players
+ good games
+ good casters!
+ introduction of the SHADOW BRACKET (I love these things!)
+ qxc yelling at the guy who is eating chicken wings for him
+ most koreans speaking english on stage interviews (it's just 100x better than translated standard PR blabla)
+ crowd
+ ... (your turn, I ran out of things :/ )


- technical issues (wtf guys)
- qxc not winning the whole thing
- extended series (meh...)
- horrible use of downtime between games: mostly there were just splash screens with or without music, no info when the next games starts and so on...
- ... hm

tbc

To be fair, the schedule was posted in the OP, and they followed it quite well in the series that I watched. It was one Bo3 every hour with each Bo3 usually starting exactly at their scheduled time, so I personally don't fault them for following this schedule even if it led to a bunch of downtime.
ㅇㅅㅌㅅ
Rasmudd
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden127 Posts
November 12 2012 07:06 GMT
#11119
btw, people have complained about how the infestor works since the very beginning. But it has been very low key as it didn't fill such a big role in the meta. It was just a very strong spellcaster. I like how Zerg has become the race with the most cost effective units and slow moving super late game army .
zefreak
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States2731 Posts
November 12 2012 07:07 GMT
#11120
On November 12 2012 15:59 vthree wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2012 15:52 WhatsInAName wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:44 zefreak wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:38 WhatsInAName wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:34 vthree wrote:
On November 12 2012 15:28 WhatsInAName wrote:
Hi. I don't play sc2 much any more, but I watch a lot. I enjoy fungal as a spell. Not sure why so many people are suddenly going berserk over it. Rather silly, honestly.

Did you know, that the infestor hasn't been changed since patch 1.4.0, which was in September of 2011. In fact, over a year ago. I'm wondering, in fact, why the community is such in a rage all of a sudden when, in fact, the infestor hasn't changed in a year. Hmm.


Because it is 2-3x easier to go straight from ling to infestors now that you have the 4-6 queen builds and overlord speed? It is like if they buff mules to give 540 minerals over its life time. You will just see mass marine builds be OP eventhough the marine itself has not been change. Changes in the meta game can make certain units OP. Ghost snipe were also not nerfed until pretty late because that meta had not be uncovered.


2-3x easier ------------> hmmm. Rethink cause and effect. Are you implying that previously, terran had to do damange in the very early game to hault the ease of going to ling infestor? Also, the queen change was made very long time ago. Explain why just now, people are begging for a nerf.


You are just being difficult. People have been asking for a nerf for a while now, but as zerg players master infestor-broodlord engagements and through experience see just how much army they can cut while teching hard, people are being louder and louder about it.

Previously, terran COULD do damage in the very early game if a zerg was greedy. Now, its much easier to defend early aggression vs terran. Even Idra admits this.

You realize that many professional zerg players, including some of the best in the world, think the infestor is a problem. They just want viable options that don't rely on it, because without infestor zerg is much weaker. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem.


Difficult ----> I don't think so.

I'm skeptical about players making calls on balance. It's a conflict of interest. As someone else said a few posts back, the issue is much larger and in fact may not involve infestors at all (or perhaps it has everything to do with infestors). Zerg's have been 15 hatching since day one. So maybe this is greedy, but I don't think so since zerg typically must have more bases than the other races from the get-go. I think Terrans have been more greedy as of late with usually 3 cc builds in seemingly the first few minutes of the game. Nevertheless, Zerg has it's bag of punishes as well.


And everyone has a conflict of interest. You can be a Stephano fan and feel zerg is fine. Or I can be a Bomber fan and think it is not. It is almost impossible to find a neutral person who is knowledgable enough to make balance calls. But even zergs pros have been saying there is a problem with BL/infestors. And I don't think they enjoy HAVING to go that composition to win.


Hard to be a Stephano fan and feel zerg is fine when he says himself that he always thought Zerg was the strongest race and that it is waaay imbalanced
www.gosu-sc.com - Starcraft News, Strategy and Merchandise
Prev 1 554 555 556 557 558 561 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 7h 22m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko478
LamboSC2 269
Hui .264
Classic 61
Codebar 23
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 41429
Calm 5494
Bisu 2350
EffOrt 941
Shuttle 649
firebathero 568
Light 362
Stork 319
Soma 308
Rush 304
[ Show more ]
Snow 212
ZerO 185
Hyuk 153
Soulkey 126
Dewaltoss 120
Leta 115
hero 111
Sharp 56
Hyun 56
PianO 53
Barracks 47
Movie 45
ggaemo 44
910 38
Mong 34
Killer 34
Trap 28
HiyA 25
Yoon 23
Terrorterran 21
Sacsri 20
sorry 18
Hm[arnc] 17
Shinee 16
Shine 15
soO 13
Free 10
Noble 8
ProTech5
Dota 2
Gorgc14245
qojqva1838
syndereN349
Fuzer 119
League of Legends
Reynor72
Counter-Strike
byalli707
fl0m206
Heroes of the Storm
crisheroes347
Trikslyr65
Other Games
singsing1720
B2W.Neo1099
hiko919
Beastyqt654
ceh9415
XaKoH 221
Liquid`VortiX178
mouzStarbuck166
Liquid`LucifroN29
ZerO(Twitch)17
Chillindude12
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 54
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LUISG 0
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 14
• FirePhoenix8
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 2972
League of Legends
• Nemesis1790
• Jankos1755
• TFBlade521
Other Games
• Shiphtur352
• WagamamaTV267
Upcoming Events
OSC
7h 22m
WardiTV Summer Champion…
19h 22m
Harstem vs Zoun
Harstem vs GgMaChine
GgMaChine vs Lambo
Harstem vs Lambo
GgMaChine vs Zoun
Lambo vs Zoun
OSC
22h 22m
FEL
1d 17h
Patches Events
1d 21h
AI Arena Tournament
2 days
FEL
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
WardiTV Weekly
3 days
[ Show More ]
IntoTheTV X SOOP
4 days
ByuN vs Lambo
MaxPax vs Bunny
PiGosaur Cup
5 days
The PondCast
5 days
Kung Fu Cup
5 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
6 days
SHIN vs GuMiho
Clem vs Classic
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-10-20
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
IPSL Winter 2026-27
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
Acropolis #5 - GSC
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026

Upcoming

BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.