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On November 12 2012 18:17 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 17:42 lightertripod wrote:On November 12 2012 17:20 SeAK wrote:
As a Terran player, my biggest frustration in the TVZ match up is how it feels that you just end up getting rolled whenever you lose, regardless of how well you may have been playing prior. Terran has all the tools to win (and can look dominant) if they play somewhat perfectly. Making a few minor mistakes at any point creates the snowball effect to the inevitable steamroll.
Zerg on the other hand seems to have a variety of aggressive openings they can do that don't seem to effect there position in the game.
Zerg can make many mistakes such as: sloppy engagements, losing workers and having less supply! But when the dust settles they can easily make up the lost ground with the Infestor.
One mistake with controlling a terran army and bam, zergs rolled your army with seemingly little effort, and they are back in the game. Where a Terran has a much harder time to even just trade cost efficiently with zerg. Chances of a comeback are slim to none (when put in a similar "behind" situation) unless the zerg player makes giant glaring mistakes, like A moving infestors to there death. Terran game changing mistakes could include : Not pre splitting EVERYTHING before a battle, not focus firing banelings with tanks, not scouting a quick tech switch by zerg and just not microing everything in the battle enough to be somewhat cost efficent.
Bottom line is, as terran player, its frustrating and disheartening to lose a long even macro game in an instant to what seems like easily executable tactics by a zerg player. Its feeling like the entire burden of micro is on us to make the units "balanced". Is it balanced? Probably. Is it a fair match up in TVZ? My opinion is no. Whats yours?
100% agree I also feel and I am sure I read someone state that in a best of 3 terran has a good chance but the higher the best of the less chance there is coming out the victor due to the nature of the game unless your enermy is clueless to what to do vs your build play style you cannot play the same 5 games in a row as Terren zerg is more about little tweats It's because terran uses positionnal play (tanks) where zerg is the one who have to destroys the terran position. When terran plays bio this is not this way that game is played at all.
with fungal and banelings, bio is really really really hard to play, though...
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There is no link to the results in the OP, is there?
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On November 12 2012 17:20 SeAK wrote:
As a Terran player, my biggest frustration in the TVZ match up is how it feels that you just end up getting rolled whenever you lose, regardless of how well you may have been playing prior. Terran has all the tools to win (and can look dominant) if they play somewhat perfectly. Making a few minor mistakes at any point creates the snowball effect to the inevitable steamroll.
Zerg on the other hand seems to have a variety of aggressive openings they can do that don't seem to effect there position in the game.
Zerg can make many mistakes such as: sloppy engagements, losing workers and having less supply! But when the dust settles they can easily make up the lost ground with the Infestor.
One mistake with controlling a terran army and bam, zergs rolled your army with seemingly little effort, and they are back in the game. Where a Terran has a much harder time to even just trade cost efficiently with zerg. Chances of a comeback are slim to none (when put in a similar "behind" situation) unless the zerg player makes giant glaring mistakes, like A moving infestors to there death. Terran game changing mistakes could include : Not pre splitting EVERYTHING before a battle, not focus firing banelings with tanks, not scouting a quick tech switch by zerg and just not microing everything in the battle enough to be somewhat cost efficent.
Bottom line is, as terran player, its frustrating and disheartening to lose a long even macro game in an instant to what seems like easily executable tactics by a zerg player. Its feeling like the entire burden of micro is on us to make the units "balanced". Is it balanced? Probably. Is it a fair match up in TVZ? My opinion is no. Whats yours?
Also one of the most common ones is getting caught out of position, or unsieged. If you're slightly slow to react or if your attention is elsewhere for a split second, the game can end right there. It's very harsh and unforgiving, where as I don't think zerg has quite the same feel about it. In my ladder games it's a nightmare, but apparently even for the best players it regularly happens as well 
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I remember when I used to play bio TvZ, fungals and banes weren't that big a deal because with a lot of medivacs and Marauders you could tank them easily. It was kind of the point of the style because zergs fucking loved ling bane infestor after doing 6 queen openings and a hellion banshee harass into 3-4 OC into bio was extremely strong for a while.
I stopped doing it because if Zerg went mutalisks then you were in a lot of trouble, that was hole in the style I had found.
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Hard to be a Stephano fan and feel zerg is fine when he says himself that he always thought Zerg was the strongest race and that it is waaay imbalanced
After 1 year and a half of imba T we Z are happy to be a bit stronger than P and T. But this series was quite tight i don't understand why there is so much of imba Z in this topic.
In a few month HOTS will be there so don't worry you may not have to wait 1 year and a half to get a balanced game...
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On November 12 2012 17:04 ladyumbra wrote:
While I have no opinion on balance itself I don't think I've seen this much outcry over a single unit or ability since pre patch BFH. It didn't help that it was popular during the gom TvT era and there was nothing fun about repeatedly watching two 4 base terrans lose hundreds of scv's over the course of a game while not actually attacking each other. Then slayers ( RIP) brought their slick build using it to mlg, killed everyone of every race with it and all hell broke lose on the forums and reddit for months every time BFH were used in any matchup until blizzard nerfed it. I think anything that effects multiple matchups heavily including the mirror is going to end up causing unending frustration.
LSC2 wise I was overall happy with the tournament. My chosen player didn't win but a lot of the games were good all weekend long and there were some truly amusing moments. For all the fuss it caused cranks stalker dancing lead to some interesting conversations. Naniwa and qxc's game getting paused on account of ants was cute and qxc stating that he mannered more cc's was adorable. The shadow bracket needs to migrate to more tournaments and koreans need to do more interviews in softspoken english. Also Ganzi should dance between every set instead of having downtime.Oh and I'd never heard Tod cast before today and I really liked that.
Thank you for this post, I agree wholeheartedly and it made me happy to read this during all the balance debates (:
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On November 12 2012 18:25 WhatsInAName wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 17:25 NAPoleonSC wrote:On November 12 2012 16:12 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:59 schaf wrote:my summary: + good players + good games + good casters! + introduction of the SHADOW BRACKET (I love these things!) + qxc yelling at the guy who is eating chicken wings for him + most koreans speaking english on stage interviews (it's just 100x better than translated standard PR blabla) + crowd + ... (your turn, I ran out of things :/ ) - technical issues (wtf guys) - qxc not winning the whole thing  - extended series (meh...) - horrible use of downtime between games: mostly there were just splash screens with or without music, no info when the next games starts and so on... - ... hm tbc I agree with most of your assessment. About extended series: Defend your attitude. They seems perfectly logical. Double Elimination tournament means every must be defeated twice. Everyone. This means everyone gets a second chance. Everyone. Why then would the shining player from the upper bracket be DENIED this when every single other person in the tournament has been granted this. That's simply not fair, is it. In fact, out of ALL of the players in the tournament, the one player with an unblemished score should be paraded/celebrated for his accomplishment, not punished. Now when MLG takes it one step further with the continuity of series, well, that's stretching it too far in my opinion. But I kind of think it makes more sense than PUNISHING the person who should be COMPLIMENTED. I really don't like how LSC did their extended series. It seems unfair. If LSC used MLG's format, Bomber would have won 4-3. Makes no sense to me that Stephano wins with a 4-4. To clarify more: It's double elimination. Everyone get's a second shot with a best of three. Everyone. Now everyone got theirs in the loser's bracket. Except Stephano, he got his in the final. How would it be fair to deny Stephano the same treatment everyone else got. Yes, They are technically 4-4. But it is all about winning the right games at the right time. Perhaps you could view the tournament as: Every person who loses 2 Best of X series is out of the tournament. Stephano was the only player who didn't lose two best of X series, so he wins.
Furthermore, Stephano was looking in prime position to take the game when that first Antiga-game dc'd (which Bomber then won the remake of). I'm really happy he took the last series, it wouldn't have felt right otherwise.
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On November 12 2012 20:07 Trashman420 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 18:25 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 17:25 NAPoleonSC wrote:On November 12 2012 16:12 WhatsInAName wrote:On November 12 2012 15:59 schaf wrote:my summary: + good players + good games + good casters! + introduction of the SHADOW BRACKET (I love these things!) + qxc yelling at the guy who is eating chicken wings for him + most koreans speaking english on stage interviews (it's just 100x better than translated standard PR blabla) + crowd + ... (your turn, I ran out of things :/ ) - technical issues (wtf guys) - qxc not winning the whole thing - extended series (meh...) - horrible use of downtime between games: mostly there were just splash screens with or without music, no info when the next games starts and so on... - ... hm tbc I agree with most of your assessment. About extended series: Defend your attitude. They seems perfectly logical. Double Elimination tournament means every must be defeated twice. Everyone. This means everyone gets a second chance. Everyone. Why then would the shining player from the upper bracket be DENIED this when every single other person in the tournament has been granted this. That's simply not fair, is it. In fact, out of ALL of the players in the tournament, the one player with an unblemished score should be paraded/celebrated for his accomplishment, not punished. Now when MLG takes it one step further with the continuity of series, well, that's stretching it too far in my opinion. But I kind of think it makes more sense than PUNISHING the person who should be COMPLIMENTED. I really don't like how LSC did their extended series. It seems unfair. If LSC used MLG's format, Bomber would have won 4-3. Makes no sense to me that Stephano wins with a 4-4. To clarify more: It's double elimination. Everyone get's a second shot with a best of three. Everyone. Now everyone got theirs in the loser's bracket. Except Stephano, he got his in the final. How would it be fair to deny Stephano the same treatment everyone else got. Yes, They are technically 4-4. But it is all about winning the right games at the right time. Perhaps you could view the tournament as: Every person who loses 2 Best of X series is out of the tournament. Stephano was the only player who didn't lose two best of X series, so he wins. Furthermore, Stephano was looking in prime position to take the game when that first Antiga-game dc'd (which Bomber then won the remake of). I'm really happy he took the last series, it wouldn't have felt right otherwise.
You're wrong, it would have felt good
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Northern Ireland25283 Posts
Good tournament, shame that Bomber didn't win the final but I suppose there has to be an advantage for the player going through the Winner's Bracket.
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Zerg not op, just bad terran players.
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Grtz to Stephano. Couldn't watch the finals sadly enough.
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So I just watched the series between Bomber and Stephano and I was expecting the worst after reading the LR . Wtf ? I saw two players pretty much equal in skill play their best and where the better player won . How can people talk about imba ?
Anyway congratz to Stephano and I hope Bomber will keep showing good results .
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On November 12 2012 21:05 Uni1987 wrote:
Zerg not op, just bad terran players.
In what universe Bomber is a bad terran player ?
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On November 12 2012 21:20 Lasbike wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 21:05 Uni1987 wrote:
Zerg not op, just bad terran players. In what universe Bomber is a bad terran player ?
In the 1 ouf of 5 or something series universe :d
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On November 12 2012 21:20 Lasbike wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 21:05 Uni1987 wrote:
Zerg not op, just bad terran players. In what universe Bomber is a bad terran player ?
In zerg land and Stephano fanboy land
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On November 12 2012 21:30 Linwelin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 21:20 Lasbike wrote:On November 12 2012 21:05 Uni1987 wrote:
Zerg not op, just bad terran players. In what universe Bomber is a bad terran player ? In zerg land and Stephano fanboy land
Pretty amazing to see three levels of circlejerk whine, none of them being aware that they are in fact tugging each other off.
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On November 12 2012 21:45 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 21:30 Linwelin wrote:On November 12 2012 21:20 Lasbike wrote:On November 12 2012 21:05 Uni1987 wrote:
Zerg not op, just bad terran players. In what universe Bomber is a bad terran player ? In zerg land and Stephano fanboy land Pretty amazing to see three levels of circlejerk whine, none of them being aware that they are in fact tugging each other off.
Let me give you a little tug of your own by saying that your analysis is spot on.
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Really nice tournament.
A shame that sc2 LR threads are absolutely unbearable these days. I just took a small peak and that was already too much.
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On November 12 2012 21:15 Swiipii wrote:
So I just watched the series between Bomber and Stephano and I was expecting the worst after reading the LR . Wtf ? I saw two players pretty much equal in skill play their best and where the better player won . How can people talk about imba ?
Anyway congratz to Stephano and I hope Bomber will keep showing good results .
a Korean who Trains hard vs a foreigner who by his own admission does not train enough 
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EPT
