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On November 12 2012 14:31 andaylin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 14:30 jmbthirteen wrote:On November 12 2012 14:26 andaylin wrote:On November 12 2012 14:25 jmbthirteen wrote:On November 12 2012 14:23 Astro-Penguin wrote:On November 12 2012 14:22 IMNasty wrote:
lol no thanks for EG sponsors, suspensions incoming we all know how brutal his last suspension was, he wasn't allowed to participate in a whole whopping amount of 0 tournaments you do know he had to withdraw from the GD Studio tournament that Thorzain won and DH Bucharest right? He wouldn't have gone to Bucharest, he was already qualified for Winter Finals. Only GD Studio. ummm he was scheduled to go to Bucharest. He was on the original player list. Why? Better question is why would DH allow him if he was already qualified.
What are you going on about? DH do not prevent players going if they had already qualified. Look at Mana, finished 3rd at Bucharest, having previously won a DH.
You should just admit you were wrong. Stephano's ban prevented him from attending 2 tournaments he had planned to attend.
Since his return he has had a 3rd place finish, a 2nd place finish and now a first place finish.
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Give excuses all you want zergs....Protoss and Terrans, get ready for LOTS of Zerg tears when Blizz finally decides to nerf infestors...
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 12 2012 14:33 v_lm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 14:26 TimENT wrote:On November 12 2012 14:24 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 12 2012 14:21 Gator wrote:On November 12 2012 14:18 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 12 2012 14:16 Thomanson wrote:On November 12 2012 14:15 FlyingTurtle wrote:
LOL @ all the fungal whine. Bomber's army was what, 100 marines and just 6 tanks? He was asking for it. Tier 3 army beats a tier 2 army = OP QQ NERF
Well played Stephano. I'd buy that argument, if Terran had Tier 3 that was any use against....well anything. Go watch some of Gumiho's games or any games where the Terran makes anything out of his Starports other than Vikings and Meds. Bomber lost because he went pure marine tank versus a hive composition instead of throwing in Ravens, BCs, Thors, etc. WTF how do build that army on Ohana lol, that game lasted what 20 minutes? Bomber couldn't even take a 4th base I'll tell you how. You don't go for the maxed-out marine-tank push on 3 bases. You don't fall behind on tech and econ due to a fake roach bust. You don't make the mistakes Bomber made while Stephano rushed up to hive tech. So many excuses from these Zergs :/ We get it...Bomber made mistakes. Infestors are still ruining SC2. Terran whinings are ruining sc2 imo. Its just sad a lot of people see stephano moves not as genius ones but as "Wow so powerful I could whine on that" ones...
Actually, its not that Terran and Protoss are whining, its that GGrowths are ruining the game.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 12 2012 14:24 andaylin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 14:24 zefreak wrote:On November 12 2012 14:21 Jeremy Reimer wrote:On November 12 2012 14:12 Gescom wrote:
Let's all ignore Stephano's fantastic early game build combined with Bomber's huge mid-game mistakes and cry about fungal instead. Guffah. This. The story of game five, the amazing story, was Stephano poking in with four roaches and tricking Bomber into thinking that a roach push was incoming. He made THREE BUNKERS! Then Stephano went for hive and greater spire, but he had to hold off Bomber in the middle of the map to get them up. Then there was the stim that Stephano forced out on, what, like 30 marines? All down to half health, with no medivacs? Then when the broodlords came out, Bomber made Vikings, but that forced him to cut down on his medivac production! And Stephano had made more infestors AND speed banes, and Bomber made nothing but marines and clumped them all up... he had a huge bank versus Bomber's negligible bank, Bomber was busy making vikings but Stephano had corrupters AND was prepared for a tech switch into Ultras, which he could have done with ease with his huge bank... ... and it was THE FINAL GAME after a back-and-forth, amazingly close series... 3-2 for Bomber and then 2-1 for Stephano... But NO... the game sucks because fungal sucks and infestors suck. Right. THAT'S the reaction you have. Come on, just enjoy the games! 4 roaches is a bigger econ hit than 3 bunkers early game, especially with the bomber build, especially when you can sell them I know right? That 75 minerals wasted on salvaged bunkers.
But what about the economic damage of Bomber turtling up on two bases and delaying his third expansion? Even when he finally floated his orbital over, he used it for vision instead of landing it!
It's not just about the minerals lost or spent. Stephano needed the time that Bomber spent turtling in order for him to get his tech up safely.
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The roaches were a decoy to get Stephano an econ lead so he could do what he likes to do and crush his opponent.
Bomber bought into it.
We're seeing more and more players set-up traps like this.
Bomber knows to fear that build because Stephano has a very high win rate when he does and gee golly. Bomber was already on the receiving end. Unfortunately for him he didn't check to see the follow-up.
Advantage Stephano.
It's a very common, solid move by Zergs.
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On November 12 2012 14:29 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 14:28 TimENT wrote:On November 12 2012 14:26 Jacmert wrote:
Is it just me or did Bomber totally neglect to split/spread his marines in the final engagement? Maybe fatigue was starting to get to him? Trying to siege his tanks, attack from two angles, stim, splitting his vikings BEAUTIFULLY, and macroing like a god all at once isn't enough for the Fungal menace :/ Sorry Bomber's marines...Terran can't do everything at once. But infestors can. dude i'm all for nerfing infestors to stop MASS INFESTOR play. But stephano hardly even had any infestors. He just hit perfect fungals with the ones he had. This game has nothing to do with the reason infestors should be nerfed.
When considering the payoff. The difficulty of casting "perfect fungals" doesn't seem as difficult as it should be. However, it's the heavy reliance upon the "freeze" effect that's the issue. It's a spell, like vortex, that players must rely upon to insta-win a battle, or lose otherwise. It's frustrating spell from a micro-management perspective and from a spectator perspective. I'm not for nerfing zerg. i just feel blizzard should give zerg more robust INTERESTING options and either take fungal away, or make it like plague. I hope hydra-viper-ling eventually eclipses infestor play. The swarm effect will give the terran an option to PULL AWAY once hit by the range limiting spell. Which is infinitely more interesting from a viewer perspective.
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If you're whining about balance, refute me or GTFO. Here's the crux: so Fungal is OP? A "skill-less" skill? What about lurkers in BW? Move your marines into a few of them, get shredded...and the Zerg didn't even have to click "F". Lockdown prevents micro? DEFINITELY OP. Plague = guaranteed damage? OP. You might as well say that the entire game of SC BW was just whoever could get the most OP units on the field. There's something called MICRO, idiots. Bomber clumped his marines and lost the game, simple as that.
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Hmm, that stats guy predicted a Stephano win in this tournament! Folks scoffed at him and his predictions! Is BB the Nate Silver of Team Liquid?
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On November 12 2012 14:39 thepuppyassassin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 14:29 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 12 2012 14:28 TimENT wrote:On November 12 2012 14:26 Jacmert wrote:
Is it just me or did Bomber totally neglect to split/spread his marines in the final engagement? Maybe fatigue was starting to get to him? Trying to siege his tanks, attack from two angles, stim, splitting his vikings BEAUTIFULLY, and macroing like a god all at once isn't enough for the Fungal menace :/ Sorry Bomber's marines...Terran can't do everything at once. But infestors can. dude i'm all for nerfing infestors to stop MASS INFESTOR play. But stephano hardly even had any infestors. He just hit perfect fungals with the ones he had. This game has nothing to do with the reason infestors should be nerfed. When considering the payoff. The difficulty of casting "perfect fungals" doesn't seem as difficult as it should be. However, it's the heavy reliance upon the "freeze" effect that's the issue. It's a spell, like vortex, that players must rely upon to insta-win a battle. It's frustrating spell from a micro-management perspective and from a spectator perspective. I'm not for nerfing zerg. i just feel blizzard should give zerg more robust INTERESTING options and either take fungal away, or make it like plague. I hope hydra-viper-ling eventually eclipses infestor play. The swarm effect will give the terran an option to PULL AWAY once hit by the range limiting spell. Which is infinitely more interesting from a viewer perspective.
Yeah i agree, but that final game had nothing to do with it. Bomber didn't micro his marines and left them in one big clump. If stephano had made 100 banelings and walked them in a big clump into tank fire no-one would asking for a tank nerf.
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On November 12 2012 14:41 revel8 wrote:
Hmm, that stats guy predicted a Stephano win in this tournament! Folks scoffed at him and his predictions! Is BB the Nate Silver of Team Liquid?
HAHAHA Yes, that dudes stats were awesome.
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On November 12 2012 14:41 revel8 wrote:
Hmm, that stats guy predicted a Stephano win in this tournament! Folks scoffed at him and his predictions! Is BB the Nate Silver of Team Liquid?
The true Nate Silver of Team Liquid picks opposite of whatever Fionn picks 
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On November 12 2012 14:40 FlyingTurtle wrote:
If you're whining about balance, refute me or GTFO. Here's the crux: so Fungal is OP? A "skill-less" skill? What about lurkers in BW? Move your marines into a few of them, get shredded...and the Zerg didn't even have to click "F". Lockdown prevents micro? DEFINITELY OP. Plague = guaranteed damage? OP. You might as well say that the entire game of SC BW was just whoever could get the most OP units on the field. There's something called MICRO, idiots. Bomber clumped his marines and lost the game, simple as that.
The difference you are looking for is that in Broodwar Zerg didn't win almost every single tournament. Is that good enough for you?
No wait, Zergs are just better than Terrans and Protoss players righ? Right...
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 12 2012 14:31 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 14:28 Havik_ wrote:On November 12 2012 14:24 nokz88 wrote:On November 12 2012 14:20 Havik_ wrote:
To some extent I think Terrans have no right to QQ about Infestors until they start making Ghosts in TvZ again. Protoss can complain all they want though :p Yes those same Ghosts Blizzard butchered after Zergs cried rivers because Mvp used them like none other. Its called EMP. You can't whine about Infestors and not make their counter. 1 EMP can neutralize infinite infestors if they're clumped up. Are you trolling?
No, but based on how stubborn Terran players have always been, I can't blame you for thinking that I am when I actually pose a potential solution to your problem. I don't really care though. Its not my ladder win rate that's going in the toilet.
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On November 12 2012 14:35 nokz88 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 14:33 v_lm wrote:On November 12 2012 14:26 TimENT wrote:On November 12 2012 14:24 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 12 2012 14:21 Gator wrote:On November 12 2012 14:18 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 12 2012 14:16 Thomanson wrote:On November 12 2012 14:15 FlyingTurtle wrote:
LOL @ all the fungal whine. Bomber's army was what, 100 marines and just 6 tanks? He was asking for it. Tier 3 army beats a tier 2 army = OP QQ NERF
Well played Stephano. I'd buy that argument, if Terran had Tier 3 that was any use against....well anything. Go watch some of Gumiho's games or any games where the Terran makes anything out of his Starports other than Vikings and Meds. Bomber lost because he went pure marine tank versus a hive composition instead of throwing in Ravens, BCs, Thors, etc. WTF how do build that army on Ohana lol, that game lasted what 20 minutes? Bomber couldn't even take a 4th base I'll tell you how. You don't go for the maxed-out marine-tank push on 3 bases. You don't fall behind on tech and econ due to a fake roach bust. You don't make the mistakes Bomber made while Stephano rushed up to hive tech. So many excuses from these Zergs :/ We get it...Bomber made mistakes. Infestors are still ruining SC2. Terran whinings are ruining sc2 imo. Its just sad a lot of people see stephano moves not as genius ones but as "Wow so powerful I could whine on that" ones... One more reason to get rid of fungals. Stephano's genius is being overshadowed by it.
On the contrary Stephano genius is emphasised by it because he only had a limited numbers of fungals and used them perfectly, and so is player like MMAs genius because they are able to split their army perfectly to dodge the fungals (you can micro against fungal but its just positionnig micro) or even thorzain who s able to use ghosts perfectly against infestors.
Plus ur sentance makes no sense.
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On November 12 2012 14:37 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 14:33 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 12 2012 14:30 c0sm0naut wrote:On November 12 2012 14:24 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 12 2012 14:21 Gator wrote:On November 12 2012 14:18 FlyingTurtle wrote:On November 12 2012 14:16 Thomanson wrote:On November 12 2012 14:15 FlyingTurtle wrote:
LOL @ all the fungal whine. Bomber's army was what, 100 marines and just 6 tanks? He was asking for it. Tier 3 army beats a tier 2 army = OP QQ NERF
Well played Stephano. I'd buy that argument, if Terran had Tier 3 that was any use against....well anything. Go watch some of Gumiho's games or any games where the Terran makes anything out of his Starports other than Vikings and Meds. Bomber lost because he went pure marine tank versus a hive composition instead of throwing in Ravens, BCs, Thors, etc. WTF how do build that army on Ohana lol, that game lasted what 20 minutes? Bomber couldn't even take a 4th base I'll tell you how. You don't go for the maxed-out marine-tank push on 3 bases. You don't fall behind on tech and econ due to a fake roach bust. You don't make the mistakes Bomber made while Stephano rushed up to hive tech. don'ts: 1. play safe vs all ins 2. do a standard prehive timing push 3. let your opponent rush to hive while you make mistakes am i getting everything? so the margin of error is about, 75 minerals in salvaged bunkers, an unnecessary stim and reading the committal of unit production from a zerg player perfectly all game Obviously you've never heard of present value vs future value. 75 minerals in salvaged bunkers? He paid 100 upfront for each bunker. If he spent that money on, say, another CC or more upgrades, etc, he would have been paid back more than just 100 minerals for the investment. Bomber didn't just lose those 75 minerals, he invested 400 minerals that would have paid exponential dividends as the game went on. Learn your stuff before you post any of this nonsense. do you mean opportunity cost? dont talk to me like i'm retarded. If stephano has 8 roaches out there, breaks the rocks and then floods in with banes like he did on cloud kingdom, bombers loses that game in a minute. even with 2 bunkers. he chose to play safe and it lost him the game, stop calling it a "mistake" when in reality zergs make midgame zerglings all the time just to be "safe" and it doens't make them as critically far behind as youre claiming it made bomber..
Opportunity cost refers to any trade-off. In your specific case, you're making the mistake of thinking that 75 minerals at the 6 minute mark is worth 75 minerals at the 8 minute mark and so forth. If you want me to explain to you why dismissing it as "75 minerals" is stupid, I'll be glad to point it out.
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On November 12 2012 14:43 Havik_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 14:31 zefreak wrote:On November 12 2012 14:28 Havik_ wrote:On November 12 2012 14:24 nokz88 wrote:On November 12 2012 14:20 Havik_ wrote:
To some extent I think Terrans have no right to QQ about Infestors until they start making Ghosts in TvZ again. Protoss can complain all they want though :p Yes those same Ghosts Blizzard butchered after Zergs cried rivers because Mvp used them like none other. Its called EMP. You can't whine about Infestors and not make their counter. 1 EMP can neutralize infinite infestors if they're clumped up. Are you trolling? No, but based on how stubborn Terran players have always been, I can't blame you for thinking that I am when I actually pose a potential solution to your problem. I don't really care though. Its not my ladder win rate that's going in the toilet.
lol. If this 'solution' was viable don't you think that maybe one or two progamers might have tried it?
There are many reasons why it just would not work. At lower levels it might though.
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On November 12 2012 14:19 Traceback wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 14:17 SafeAsCheese wrote:On November 12 2012 14:15 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On November 12 2012 14:12 shockaslim wrote:On November 12 2012 14:11 SafeAsCheese wrote:
You dumbasses complaining about fungal when bomber makes 100 marines?
Storm would have the exact same effect in that battle. Except.......it wouldn't have. This! at least you can dodge Storm/micro out of it.... Meh IMO Bomber out played Stephano that series. I'm gonna try to limit my whining because I do hate when LR threads fill up with it... but god damn its just frustrating to watch sometimes... Microing out of storms when you have 100 marines doesn't do anything, besides make you spam stim that your medivacs can never keep up with. Having 70% of your army has a T1 core unit that late in the game is just bad, only arguably marauders can make that work and usually not without great difficulty. Regardless, watching storm micro is 1000x more exciting then watching that... Watching that ending makes me not want to watch starcraft. 3 spells and micro is turned irrelevant and you watch the game end. That's such a terrible spectator experience.
There is more to micro than what you do while you fight. Pre battle micro is heavily neglected because of moving armies around in a blob. Terrans don't even afford a raven because you can't amove them around with your army.
Zerg micro is currently way to easy, but that doesn't mean that you can't beat it. And BW had even worse things than Fungal, still it was great for spectators. You can atleast stop Chain fungal from happening after the first one did hit. Plague was one hit and you could throw the part that was hit away.
About the 70% T1 core ... yeah Protoss does it too. Zerg has the advantage of being able to user their defense structures as part of their army to avoid having t1 units around, otherwise you would see it there as well.
Can't wait for the Fungal nerf ... but people will soon find a new target to qq about. But with the recent BluePost I have no doubt that we won't see refinements on either beating or perfecting Broodlord Infestor. So they can just get it over with.
Personally I still hope they will change the way fungal affected units work, so that won't lose their given movement orders. That way it would atleast prevent units from derping around, unless their target moves out of attack range. But it is really annoying if your units start attacking summoned units (ai prioritizes those if uncontrolled) after each fungal.
But atleast you can make Zerg players still rage by dropping a mule behind their army and all the Broodlords waste one volley when you attack or use the time to move your ghosts in for some sniping Infestor action.
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On November 12 2012 14:39 thepuppyassassin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 14:29 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 12 2012 14:28 TimENT wrote:On November 12 2012 14:26 Jacmert wrote:
Is it just me or did Bomber totally neglect to split/spread his marines in the final engagement? Maybe fatigue was starting to get to him? Trying to siege his tanks, attack from two angles, stim, splitting his vikings BEAUTIFULLY, and macroing like a god all at once isn't enough for the Fungal menace :/ Sorry Bomber's marines...Terran can't do everything at once. But infestors can. dude i'm all for nerfing infestors to stop MASS INFESTOR play. But stephano hardly even had any infestors. He just hit perfect fungals with the ones he had. This game has nothing to do with the reason infestors should be nerfed. When considering the payoff. The difficulty of casting "perfect fungals" doesn't seem as difficult as it should be. However, it's the heavy reliance upon the "freeze" effect that's the issue. It's a spell, like vortex, that players must rely upon to insta-win a battle, or lose otherwise. It's frustrating spell from a micro-management perspective and from a spectator perspective. I'm not for nerfing zerg. i just feel blizzard should give zerg more robust INTERESTING options and either take fungal away, or make it like plague. I hope hydra-viper-ling eventually eclipses infestor play. The swarm effect will give the terran an option to PULL AWAY once hit by the range limiting spell. Which is infinitely more interesting from a viewer perspective.
Casting perfect fungals is as easy as your opponent makes it. In this game, Bomber made it incredibly easy.
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On November 12 2012 14:43 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 14:40 FlyingTurtle wrote:
If you're whining about balance, refute me or GTFO. Here's the crux: so Fungal is OP? A "skill-less" skill? What about lurkers in BW? Move your marines into a few of them, get shredded...and the Zerg didn't even have to click "F". Lockdown prevents micro? DEFINITELY OP. Plague = guaranteed damage? OP. You might as well say that the entire game of SC BW was just whoever could get the most OP units on the field. There's something called MICRO, idiots. Bomber clumped his marines and lost the game, simple as that. The difference you are looking for is that in Broodwar Zerg didn't win almost every single tournament. Is that good enough for you? No wait, Zergs are just better than Terrans and Protoss players righ? Right...
LOL this is one of the most ridiculous arguments I've seen on TL. For certain periods of time, a race DID dominate the scene in BW. Remember the Six Dragons era, when Terran was considered the weakest race by far? Remember how Boxer led the Terrans to learn new ways to deal with the Protoss endgame composition without begging Blizzard for a Terran buff? No, of course you don't. This is just a period when Zerg is rising. Deal with it.
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On November 12 2012 14:43 Havik_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 14:31 zefreak wrote:On November 12 2012 14:28 Havik_ wrote:On November 12 2012 14:24 nokz88 wrote:On November 12 2012 14:20 Havik_ wrote:
To some extent I think Terrans have no right to QQ about Infestors until they start making Ghosts in TvZ again. Protoss can complain all they want though :p Yes those same Ghosts Blizzard butchered after Zergs cried rivers because Mvp used them like none other. Its called EMP. You can't whine about Infestors and not make their counter. 1 EMP can neutralize infinite infestors if they're clumped up. Are you trolling? No, but based on how stubborn Terran players have always been, I can't blame you for thinking that I am when I actually pose a potential solution to your problem. I don't really care though. Its not my ladder win rate that's going in the toilet.
Really? How were Terrans ever stubborn? Terrans have been the most innovative players in SC2. So many different builds. We tried Ghosts, BFH, Thors in TvP, etc.. but almost everything we tried got insta-nerfed. It's not so much the fact that Terran players are stubborn, the actual reason why Terran players aren't "trying" any of these exotic units anymore is because we ran out of options due to previous nerfs. Or did you already forget how Ghosts got nerfed... not once... but twice (or maybe even three times I'm not even sure anymore)? This is just ridiculous really.
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EPT
