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No balance whine |
No question, the design of PvZ late game is as horrible as can be,
But still HerO chocked hardcore in the end. The Vortex was bad, not rebuilding any tech was not very smart. When you cast 5 Feedbacks into a group of 20 infestors, that is like throwing a bottle of water into a burning house and to expect the fire to go out. You just have to wait for some storms there I feel. Also, did he really need to go to 6 bases? Because in the end he did not have enough money to build a new army fast enough. Even one base less with pylons, assimilators, cannons and maybe 1-2 gateways, could easily give you 1500 extra minerals which he could have used.
Starcraft always was like this, it doesn't matter if you control your enemy for 90% of the time, you gotta finish him. It has happened before (for some reason Flash vs GGPlay on Plasma comes to mind).
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On September 27 2012 20:25 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 20:23 Dosey wrote:On September 27 2012 20:21 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2012 20:20 Dosey wrote:On September 27 2012 20:17 Scarlett` wrote:
zerg player way ahead, gets half his broodlords vortexed and insta loses
protoss players "spread your broods"
protoss player way ahead, lets his mothership get neuraled, gets three quarters his army vortexed and insta loses
protoss players "zerg op :3" It wasn't an insta lose either though. HerO had ample opportunity to win that even after the vortex but instead just sat in a corner while not rebuilding any tech structures. It's like he mentally collapsed the moment the vortex hit. He had nothing to destroy such a high BL/Infestor count... He had a bank and blink stalkers vs a slow Broodfestor army. The base racers dream. Oh and a Mothership, which has a nifty retreat ability called mass recall o_O You mean moving Spines which can safely hide beneath your BL army?
Guess you weren't watching the match and are just bitching in general terms.
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On the bright side, HerO wont be team killing no matter what 
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On September 27 2012 20:27 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 20:22 wangstra wrote:On September 27 2012 20:18 Dali. wrote:On September 27 2012 20:17 Scarlett` wrote:
zerg player way ahead, gets half his broodlords vortexed and insta loses
protoss players "spread your broods"
protoss player way ahead, lets his mothership get neuraled, gets three quarters his army vortexed and insta loses
protoss players "zerg op :3" Scarlett dropping madddddd truth. I see it but a six base Zerg with infestors won't loose to one vortex. At least if they are not asleep on their macro. Except that's not true. A massive economic advantage can be negated by an army with momentum. Both Zerg and Protoss lategame armies possess this ability. There's many examples where a complacent zerg can lose most of their army inefficiently due to vortex and straight up die because they don't have the time to pool all their resources into a meaningful counter deathball. Momentum is king.
Most intelligent/truthful comment i've seen so far.Deserves to be quoted again.
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On September 27 2012 20:29 shabby wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 20:27 Maloreon wrote:
Haha, this happens in other matchups (in every match up). Just because a player plays well during the majority of the game does not mean he "deserves" to win. As we say in chess, the game is not won by he who makes the most mistakes but lost by he who makes the last mistake. Meaning, the ultimate mistake. Deal with it. Well said.
Final engagements? Sure. Two buttons? No, thank you.
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On September 27 2012 20:28 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 20:24 CodeskyE wrote:
The real problem is Mothership.
Sure it works for Protoss players against Zerg, but when it gets neuraled and your own units get vortexed by your own Mothership, then you basically lose the game as well. The real problem is a combination of things. There's no 1 unit that is the issue here. Mothership as a response to Broodlord infestor lategame is the issue. There's probably some refinement to be had for all three units. Protoss will keep building motherships because it's currently the only thing that keeps BL infestor from looking seriously imbalanced.
that mothership vortex turned that game around.
sadly this time, it made the protoss lose.
but i agree, protoss has and needs to make mothership late-game.
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The problem isn't the mothership ... dunno what you talking about... the mothership is the only solution and it's a stupid solution
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On September 27 2012 20:29 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 20:23 budar wrote:
Amazing play by Leenock in that engagement to be honest. But still, this is the reason why I was pissed when the mothership was announced to be in this game in the first place (or any other "hero unit"). The whole reason why PvZ lategame is retarded is because the mothership is the most god awful unit ever. The whole dynamic around vortex is just dumb, and I think pretty much everyone agrees with that. I was super disappointed when they decided to keep the mothership (and vortex) in HotS.
I'm aware Protoss can't do anything else to counter broodlord/infestor, but the whole point is that with the mothership out, another way would emerge either trough metagame changes or balance changes. Keep in mind that Zerg actually can't do anything else lategame than go broodlord/infestor either because everything else is completely worthless against the "deathball". lol, without mothership. I think most protoss would just 2 base all in every game (or many do some 1 base). The BL/infestor synergy is just too good. Personally, I don't think you should be able to cast vortex when Mothership is neural'ed. I think just taking over the mothership and preventing the vortex is enough. Protoss should be given a chance to focus fire the infestor to get it back. But now, they just need it for a split second and protoss is dead.
Well, if the ship had full energy Zerg could just Recall to waste all of the mana I guess.
Kinda like a super Viper AOE snag
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On September 27 2012 20:26 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 20:17 Scarlett` wrote:
zerg player way ahead, gets half his broodlords vortexed and insta loses
protoss players "spread your broods"
protoss player way ahead, lets his mothership get neuraled, gets three quarters his army vortexed and insta loses
protoss players "zerg op :3" I think the more annoying thing is that Hero was so far ahead and kept killing so much but he just couldn't finish of Leenock. In any other match up with that much of an advantage the game would have been over in Hero's favour much earlier. *not saying Zerg op because balance whining isn't my thing, but it is frustrating to see it happen to my favourite player.
It's a good thing that being far ahead doesn't mean you're guaranteed a win, it means that games don't end in the first 5 minutes every time. A huge part of winning is knowing how to capitalize on a lead, the way you do that isn't by getting your mothership neuraled when you're up 6 bases to 3
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On September 27 2012 20:28 Bahajinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 20:25 Arco wrote:
Antiga Shipyard needs to be scrapped from the map pool, not enough room to maneuver around that Zerg deathball and kill it. Not to mention, Mothership vs Neural Parasite is stupid. Everything is said here. Antiga Shipyard is a map which is simply not balanced. PvT is a nightmare and PvZ as well if a Protoss gets to the lategame.
I've been saying this for the longest time. It needs to go.
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oh well.
im not even gonna bother watching pvz for a while.
I really enjoy watching Hero's pvz, but that last match
was a fucking joke.
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LR Thread: Came for the results, staying for the protoss tears.
LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENOCK!!!!!!!!
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So many ppl sound like me when i TvP on ladder. I get 5 bases, protoss is on 3 and maxes out. I think i have a huge advantage but it turns out his ultimate army stomps me and i proceed to whine.
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On September 27 2012 20:30 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 20:27 Megabuster123 wrote:
I feel like people are overrating hero's play that game he basically played a standard Antiga Shipyard vs Zerg but let the zerg max on a deathball with only three bases and then let 5 colossus get neuralled for no reason..>_> Come on... It's such a bad game design when you can just get the ultimate army and stimroll your opponent. And all your opponent can do is rely on one spell from a single unique unit. Terrible design.
Yeah, late game PvZ is stupid. But that doesn't mean that Hero played as well as your all making it out to be.
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Leenock mass trolls all of you. GG.
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MC is pissed, from twitter :
protoss = killed all drones and queens zerg = all dead drones hatchery queens just parasite to mothership win
blizzard plz make no parasite to mothership and don't moving colonys out of creep.. hero was so good but lost....
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On September 27 2012 20:27 sc2chronic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 20:25 Havik_ wrote:
Hero could have just walked in and killed Leenock long before BLs we're out, so that's on him. He had ample opportunity to just smash him, but he sat back and teched. Bad call. yeah. all that foreplay and not finishing him off. hero just got blue balled.
The guy had spines with his army. He couldn't have won the base race.
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Seeing people trying to justify the autrocity that is zerg lategame is just ridiculous
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On September 27 2012 20:26 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 20:17 Scarlett` wrote:
zerg player way ahead, gets half his broodlords vortexed and insta loses
protoss players "spread your broods"
protoss player way ahead, lets his mothership get neuraled, gets three quarters his army vortexed and insta loses
protoss players "zerg op :3" I think the more annoying thing is that Hero was so far ahead and kept killing so much but he just couldn't finish of Leenock. In any other match up with that much of an advantage the game would have been over in Hero's favour much earlier. *not saying Zerg op because balance whining isn't my thing, but it is frustrating to see it happen to my favourite player.
If it had been the case that a 6base Leenock got 80% or his BLs vortexed and ultimately lost then we'd call him out for complacent army control (among other things). I see no reason why we shouldn't call out Hero for the same.
I found that game really exciting because I like both players.
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EPT
