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On March 21 2012 00:09 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 00:06 ninjamyst wrote:On March 20 2012 23:58 msjakofsky wrote:On March 20 2012 23:24 ELA wrote:On March 20 2012 23:19 msjakofsky wrote:On March 20 2012 22:57 ELA wrote:On March 20 2012 22:22 msjakofsky wrote:On March 20 2012 22:08 Talin wrote:On March 20 2012 21:04 msjakofsky wrote:On March 20 2012 16:30 Ruscour wrote:
mouz and Empire were neck and neck for best foreign team, and TL came along and snatched it recently. TL 3-1. worth noting that mouz is still 100% foreigner while tl picked up 2 koreans... without the koreans mouz is still heads above everyone else Also worth noting is that if you make arbitrary changes to the roster, you can make any team look better than any other team. funny that you say that cuz that's exactly what these foreigner teams are doing by signing koreans, making themselves looking better with koreans who carry them with results. team suddenly changes from mediocre to top and all the fans are so in love with the new koreans just because they have the teams prefix. i guess you'll be happy too when the team that picks up Taeja suddenly transforms into the best foreign team and vile.taeja will allkil whole teamliquid in any team league with one hand tied behind his back. vile or [insert any random foreign team] will be really snatching it that time. lol, very subtle hating going on here I agree with you, TL's foreign roster aren't carrying their weight.. I mean, Sheth did all-kill EG only a few weeks ago but It was because EG's koreans were having lag.. TLO taking out GumiHo 2 weeks ago and Empire.Kas this weekend.. Coinflips, clearly And Ret, just winning the Red Bull LAN tournament - Not that big of a deal, going through PartinG and Naniwa was all it took. But yeah, im sure that Taeja, with his insanely hard run through S1 Code A (Squirtle, Hyun, Lucky) is able to beat any team, at any time, with his hands behind his back, while picking his nose with his feet - No question! yeah right cuz random wins at online events etc matter just as much as tournament wins. nobody's saying sheth or ret are bad, but they're not really producing tourny results you're also a little clueless about Taeja, not like i couldn't have written any random top korean player to make it true, but still ![[image loading]](http://oi41.tinypic.com/dd154k.jpg) You dont think that its funny at all, that you say that winning random online tournaments arent as detrimental, when Korean Weekly itself is an online tournament?  yeah you could be right if it wasn't the online tournament with the toughest competition in the world, taeja didn't have ridiculously good results in it, including staple winning records over many code S players/champions, + 2 allkills in gstl, etc. or are you denying taeja is one of the best terrans? outside of gsl he has THE best records. there isn't a foreign team that wouldn't have it's potential multiplied if they signed taeja now. and if sheth and ret and tlo were actually winning online tournaments, yet they only have good results here and there by foreigner standards, i don't recall many actual wins. Ret is a solid player, that's true, but him qualifying for gsl a year ago doesn't really help your point, and the fact that most of TL's major results are hero's wins doesn't either. just enjoy the games and quit whining like a little kid that got smacked around by a girl in the playground not agreeing with the praise of liquid team is not whining. just learn to argue and quit acting like a little kid who thinks he is badass because he used swear words in the kindergarten.
To be frank, you are the one who actually should 'learn to argue'. If you look at facts - no opinions, no subjective anything - TL is the most successful team in 2011 with most first places and tied for most top3 finished with EG. And these are very well spread out over the whole team; no one taking more than two first places and everybody but HayprO has a top3 finish.
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ELA: i never denied mouz has less tournament wins than liquid, i just think mouz roster is more solid overall- without hero and zenio. it's all subjective to a degree of course. you were the one who tried to discredit taeja, when he is undoubtedly better than anyone in mouz or liquid. mouz players have better results vs koreans too which matters to me more than decent results vs foreigners.
but yeah i admit i'm biased.
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On March 21 2012 00:19 Bumblebee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 00:09 msjakofsky wrote:On March 21 2012 00:06 ninjamyst wrote:On March 20 2012 23:58 msjakofsky wrote:On March 20 2012 23:24 ELA wrote:On March 20 2012 23:19 msjakofsky wrote:On March 20 2012 22:57 ELA wrote:On March 20 2012 22:22 msjakofsky wrote:On March 20 2012 22:08 Talin wrote:On March 20 2012 21:04 msjakofsky wrote:
[quote]
worth noting that mouz is still 100% foreigner while tl picked up 2 koreans... without the koreans mouz is still heads above everyone else
Also worth noting is that if you make arbitrary changes to the roster, you can make any team look better than any other team. funny that you say that cuz that's exactly what these foreigner teams are doing by signing koreans, making themselves looking better with koreans who carry them with results. team suddenly changes from mediocre to top and all the fans are so in love with the new koreans just because they have the teams prefix. i guess you'll be happy too when the team that picks up Taeja suddenly transforms into the best foreign team and vile.taeja will allkil whole teamliquid in any team league with one hand tied behind his back. vile or [insert any random foreign team] will be really snatching it that time. lol, very subtle hating going on here I agree with you, TL's foreign roster aren't carrying their weight.. I mean, Sheth did all-kill EG only a few weeks ago but It was because EG's koreans were having lag.. TLO taking out GumiHo 2 weeks ago and Empire.Kas this weekend.. Coinflips, clearly And Ret, just winning the Red Bull LAN tournament - Not that big of a deal, going through PartinG and Naniwa was all it took. But yeah, im sure that Taeja, with his insanely hard run through S1 Code A (Squirtle, Hyun, Lucky) is able to beat any team, at any time, with his hands behind his back, while picking his nose with his feet - No question! yeah right cuz random wins at online events etc matter just as much as tournament wins. nobody's saying sheth or ret are bad, but they're not really producing tourny results you're also a little clueless about Taeja, not like i couldn't have written any random top korean player to make it true, but still You dont think that its funny at all, that you say that winning random online tournaments arent as detrimental, when Korean Weekly itself is an online tournament? yeah you could be right if it wasn't the online tournament with the toughest competition in the world, taeja didn't have ridiculously good results in it, including staple winning records over many code S players/champions, + 2 allkills in gstl, etc. or are you denying taeja is one of the best terrans? outside of gsl he has THE best records. there isn't a foreign team that wouldn't have it's potential multiplied if they signed taeja now. and if sheth and ret and tlo were actually winning online tournaments, yet they only have good results here and there by foreigner standards, i don't recall many actual wins. Ret is a solid player, that's true, but him qualifying for gsl a year ago doesn't really help your point, and the fact that most of TL's major results are hero's wins doesn't either. just enjoy the games and quit whining like a little kid that got smacked around by a girl in the playground not agreeing with the praise of liquid team is not whining. just learn to argue and quit acting like a little kid who thinks he is badass because he used swear words in the kindergarten. To be frank, you are the one who actually should 'learn to argue'. If you look at facts - no opinions, no subjective anything - TL is the most successful team in 2011 with most first places and tied for most top3 finished with EG. And these are very well spread out over the whole team; no one taking more than two first places and everybody but HayprO has a top3 finish.
the learn to argue part was meant for the guy who just told me to shut up because he didn't agree with me.
if i count all the wins i consider major:
Ret:
battlenet invitational, online iirc, no koreans
assembly: great win vs the best foreigners, a bit outdated though
he took out MVP which is awesome but hasn't really beaten any other korean
Sheth: nice results, solid player overall, no major championship or good results vs koreans.
hero: torn up the foreigner scene as expected of a code a/arguably code s quality player
mouz: decent tourny results here and there but no major win, more solid results vs koreans though.
you see my point of view is that mouz is the best team skill-wise, not that they have the best results overall, i never said anything like that.
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Going to be a great series of games, love that it is gonna be a rematch of the finals. Go Go Liquid!
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without hero mouz should have this
hero was the one carrying liquid through all the teamleagues and i dont think liquid will win without him (they still have ret though who was playing amazingly at red bull lan)
and they have zenio i completely forgot that they bought themselves another korean.... 
wold like to see a real "foreign team league" where no koreans are allowed
mouz would own in that thing with empire (and maybe eg if huk finally decides to play in teamleagues but i don't think he would do better than jyp so i think they would still do pretty bad)
or mouz signs taeja and ganzi and is the best "foreign team" again... but it doesn't seem to be their style to buy foreigners for even more success in teamleagues
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On March 21 2012 00:22 msjakofsky wrote:
ELA: i never denied mouz has less tournament wins than liquid, i just think mouz roster is more solid overall- without hero and zenio. it's all subjective to a degree of course. you were the one who tried to discredit taeja, when he is undoubtedly better than anyone in mouz or liquid. mouz players have better results vs koreans too which matters to me more than decent results vs foreigners.
but yeah i admit i'm biased.
Being biased is one thing, everybody is biased. Saying things that are factually incorrect is something completely different (the part that concerns numbers at least, which are not subjective).
I wouldn't be so sure that mouz players have better results vs Koreans than Ret does. Thorzain alone might be close, but it'd still take some detailed counting.
On March 21 2012 00:30 msjakofsky wrote:
battlenet invitational, online iirc, no koreans
You remember wrong. It was a live event in Poland, featured Ret playing multiple series against Nani and (incidentally) Thorzain - neither was very close.
This is why you check things.
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On March 21 2012 00:36 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 00:22 msjakofsky wrote:
ELA: i never denied mouz has less tournament wins than liquid, i just think mouz roster is more solid overall- without hero and zenio. it's all subjective to a degree of course. you were the one who tried to discredit taeja, when he is undoubtedly better than anyone in mouz or liquid. mouz players have better results vs koreans too which matters to me more than decent results vs foreigners.
but yeah i admit i'm biased. Being biased is one thing, everybody is biased. Saying things that are factually incorrect is something completely different (the part that concerns numbers at least, which are not subjective). I wouldn't be so sure that mouz players have better results vs Koreans than Ret does. Thorzain alone might be close, but it'd still take some detailed counting.
that's not incorrect at all, if you check it... ret has beaten MVP and has some other koreans in one game here and there.
Thorzain: hero, crank, alicia, MC, fruitdealer, IM team allkill, 3-kill in GSTL, Mana beat MC, Puma, Nada, Clide, DRG, Crank etc.
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On March 21 2012 00:36 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 00:30 msjakofsky wrote:
battlenet invitational, online iirc, no koreans
You remember wrong. It was a live event in Poland, featured Ret playing multiple series against Nani and (incidentally) Thorzain - neither was very close. This is why you check things.
i stand corrected
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On March 21 2012 00:43 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 00:36 Talin wrote:On March 21 2012 00:22 msjakofsky wrote:
ELA: i never denied mouz has less tournament wins than liquid, i just think mouz roster is more solid overall- without hero and zenio. it's all subjective to a degree of course. you were the one who tried to discredit taeja, when he is undoubtedly better than anyone in mouz or liquid. mouz players have better results vs koreans too which matters to me more than decent results vs foreigners.
but yeah i admit i'm biased. Being biased is one thing, everybody is biased. Saying things that are factually incorrect is something completely different (the part that concerns numbers at least, which are not subjective). I wouldn't be so sure that mouz players have better results vs Koreans than Ret does. Thorzain alone might be close, but it'd still take some detailed counting. that's not incorrect at all, if you check it... ret has beaten MVP and has some other koreans in one game here and there. Thorzain: hero, crank, alicia, MC, fruitdealer, IM team allkill, 3-kill in GSTL, Mana beat MC, Puma, Nada, Clide, DRG, Crank etc.
Ret knocked MVP and aLive out of major LAN tournaments (MLG and IPL3), qualified for GSL and won a round, beat PartinG in a series at RB LAN just recently, and that's not even counting online wins which you can check for yourself - more carefully though, just like you did for mouz players. 
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On March 21 2012 00:52 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 00:43 msjakofsky wrote:On March 21 2012 00:36 Talin wrote:On March 21 2012 00:22 msjakofsky wrote:
ELA: i never denied mouz has less tournament wins than liquid, i just think mouz roster is more solid overall- without hero and zenio. it's all subjective to a degree of course. you were the one who tried to discredit taeja, when he is undoubtedly better than anyone in mouz or liquid. mouz players have better results vs koreans too which matters to me more than decent results vs foreigners.
but yeah i admit i'm biased. Being biased is one thing, everybody is biased. Saying things that are factually incorrect is something completely different (the part that concerns numbers at least, which are not subjective). I wouldn't be so sure that mouz players have better results vs Koreans than Ret does. Thorzain alone might be close, but it'd still take some detailed counting. that's not incorrect at all, if you check it... ret has beaten MVP and has some other koreans in one game here and there. Thorzain: hero, crank, alicia, MC, fruitdealer, IM team allkill, 3-kill in GSTL, Mana beat MC, Puma, Nada, Clide, DRG, Crank etc. Ret knocked MVP and aLive out of major LAN tournaments (MLG and IPL3), qualified for GSL and won a round, beat PartinG in a series at RB LAN just recently, and that's not even counting online wins which you can check for yourself - more carefully though, just like you did for mouz players.
didn't list all of mouz's wins either, and ret vs parting is not showed in tlpd. and finally let's agree that 1 year old gsl results don't matter
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On March 21 2012 00:54 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 00:52 Talin wrote:On March 21 2012 00:43 msjakofsky wrote:On March 21 2012 00:36 Talin wrote:On March 21 2012 00:22 msjakofsky wrote:
ELA: i never denied mouz has less tournament wins than liquid, i just think mouz roster is more solid overall- without hero and zenio. it's all subjective to a degree of course. you were the one who tried to discredit taeja, when he is undoubtedly better than anyone in mouz or liquid. mouz players have better results vs koreans too which matters to me more than decent results vs foreigners.
but yeah i admit i'm biased. Being biased is one thing, everybody is biased. Saying things that are factually incorrect is something completely different (the part that concerns numbers at least, which are not subjective). I wouldn't be so sure that mouz players have better results vs Koreans than Ret does. Thorzain alone might be close, but it'd still take some detailed counting. that's not incorrect at all, if you check it... ret has beaten MVP and has some other koreans in one game here and there. Thorzain: hero, crank, alicia, MC, fruitdealer, IM team allkill, 3-kill in GSTL, Mana beat MC, Puma, Nada, Clide, DRG, Crank etc. Ret knocked MVP and aLive out of major LAN tournaments (MLG and IPL3), qualified for GSL and won a round, beat PartinG in a series at RB LAN just recently, and that's not even counting online wins which you can check for yourself - more carefully though, just like you did for mouz players. didn't list all of mouz's wins either, and ret vs parting is not showed in tlpd. and finally let's agree that 1 year old gsl results don't matter
Results don't matter to me at all personally, but if you want to count things, then they count just like everything else. It's not like TSL3 was very recent either.
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On March 21 2012 00:57 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 00:54 msjakofsky wrote:On March 21 2012 00:52 Talin wrote:On March 21 2012 00:43 msjakofsky wrote:On March 21 2012 00:36 Talin wrote:On March 21 2012 00:22 msjakofsky wrote:
ELA: i never denied mouz has less tournament wins than liquid, i just think mouz roster is more solid overall- without hero and zenio. it's all subjective to a degree of course. you were the one who tried to discredit taeja, when he is undoubtedly better than anyone in mouz or liquid. mouz players have better results vs koreans too which matters to me more than decent results vs foreigners.
but yeah i admit i'm biased. Being biased is one thing, everybody is biased. Saying things that are factually incorrect is something completely different (the part that concerns numbers at least, which are not subjective). I wouldn't be so sure that mouz players have better results vs Koreans than Ret does. Thorzain alone might be close, but it'd still take some detailed counting. that's not incorrect at all, if you check it... ret has beaten MVP and has some other koreans in one game here and there. Thorzain: hero, crank, alicia, MC, fruitdealer, IM team allkill, 3-kill in GSTL, Mana beat MC, Puma, Nada, Clide, DRG, Crank etc. Ret knocked MVP and aLive out of major LAN tournaments (MLG and IPL3), qualified for GSL and won a round, beat PartinG in a series at RB LAN just recently, and that's not even counting online wins which you can check for yourself - more carefully though, just like you did for mouz players. didn't list all of mouz's wins either, and ret vs parting is not showed in tlpd. and finally let's agree that 1 year old gsl results don't matter Results don't matter to me at all personally, but if you want to count things, then they count just like everything else. It's not like TSL3 was very recent either.
yeah true. still my point is that mouz still has better average results vs koreans, even if we count rets gsl results. you can't deny that... Ret is on par with the mouz standard though, it's just that the other foreigners in TL aren't.
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On March 21 2012 00:57 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 00:54 msjakofsky wrote:On March 21 2012 00:52 Talin wrote:On March 21 2012 00:43 msjakofsky wrote:On March 21 2012 00:36 Talin wrote:On March 21 2012 00:22 msjakofsky wrote:
ELA: i never denied mouz has less tournament wins than liquid, i just think mouz roster is more solid overall- without hero and zenio. it's all subjective to a degree of course. you were the one who tried to discredit taeja, when he is undoubtedly better than anyone in mouz or liquid. mouz players have better results vs koreans too which matters to me more than decent results vs foreigners.
but yeah i admit i'm biased. Being biased is one thing, everybody is biased. Saying things that are factually incorrect is something completely different (the part that concerns numbers at least, which are not subjective). I wouldn't be so sure that mouz players have better results vs Koreans than Ret does. Thorzain alone might be close, but it'd still take some detailed counting. that's not incorrect at all, if you check it... ret has beaten MVP and has some other koreans in one game here and there. Thorzain: hero, crank, alicia, MC, fruitdealer, IM team allkill, 3-kill in GSTL, Mana beat MC, Puma, Nada, Clide, DRG, Crank etc. Ret knocked MVP and aLive out of major LAN tournaments (MLG and IPL3), qualified for GSL and won a round, beat PartinG in a series at RB LAN just recently, and that's not even counting online wins which you can check for yourself - more carefully though, just like you did for mouz players. didn't list all of mouz's wins either, and ret vs parting is not showed in tlpd. and finally let's agree that 1 year old gsl results don't matter Results don't matter to me at all personally, but if you want to count things, then they count just like everything else. It's not like TSL3 was very recent either.
it's not like ret WON gsl last year but thorzain did win tsl....
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On March 21 2012 00:19 Bumblebee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 00:09 msjakofsky wrote:On March 21 2012 00:06 ninjamyst wrote:On March 20 2012 23:58 msjakofsky wrote:On March 20 2012 23:24 ELA wrote:On March 20 2012 23:19 msjakofsky wrote:On March 20 2012 22:57 ELA wrote:On March 20 2012 22:22 msjakofsky wrote:On March 20 2012 22:08 Talin wrote:On March 20 2012 21:04 msjakofsky wrote:
[quote]
worth noting that mouz is still 100% foreigner while tl picked up 2 koreans... without the koreans mouz is still heads above everyone else
Also worth noting is that if you make arbitrary changes to the roster, you can make any team look better than any other team. funny that you say that cuz that's exactly what these foreigner teams are doing by signing koreans, making themselves looking better with koreans who carry them with results. team suddenly changes from mediocre to top and all the fans are so in love with the new koreans just because they have the teams prefix. i guess you'll be happy too when the team that picks up Taeja suddenly transforms into the best foreign team and vile.taeja will allkil whole teamliquid in any team league with one hand tied behind his back. vile or [insert any random foreign team] will be really snatching it that time. lol, very subtle hating going on here I agree with you, TL's foreign roster aren't carrying their weight.. I mean, Sheth did all-kill EG only a few weeks ago but It was because EG's koreans were having lag.. TLO taking out GumiHo 2 weeks ago and Empire.Kas this weekend.. Coinflips, clearly And Ret, just winning the Red Bull LAN tournament - Not that big of a deal, going through PartinG and Naniwa was all it took. But yeah, im sure that Taeja, with his insanely hard run through S1 Code A (Squirtle, Hyun, Lucky) is able to beat any team, at any time, with his hands behind his back, while picking his nose with his feet - No question! yeah right cuz random wins at online events etc matter just as much as tournament wins. nobody's saying sheth or ret are bad, but they're not really producing tourny results you're also a little clueless about Taeja, not like i couldn't have written any random top korean player to make it true, but still You dont think that its funny at all, that you say that winning random online tournaments arent as detrimental, when Korean Weekly itself is an online tournament? yeah you could be right if it wasn't the online tournament with the toughest competition in the world, taeja didn't have ridiculously good results in it, including staple winning records over many code S players/champions, + 2 allkills in gstl, etc. or are you denying taeja is one of the best terrans? outside of gsl he has THE best records. there isn't a foreign team that wouldn't have it's potential multiplied if they signed taeja now. and if sheth and ret and tlo were actually winning online tournaments, yet they only have good results here and there by foreigner standards, i don't recall many actual wins. Ret is a solid player, that's true, but him qualifying for gsl a year ago doesn't really help your point, and the fact that most of TL's major results are hero's wins doesn't either. just enjoy the games and quit whining like a little kid that got smacked around by a girl in the playground not agreeing with the praise of liquid team is not whining. just learn to argue and quit acting like a little kid who thinks he is badass because he used swear words in the kindergarten. To be frank, you are the one who actually should 'learn to argue'. If you look at facts - no opinions, no subjective anything - TL is the most successful team in 2011 with most first places and tied for most top3 finished with EG. And these are very well spread out over the whole team; no one taking more than two first places and everybody but HayprO has a top3 finish.
Well, the first place finishes you qualified as valuable were also events that didn't include EG players and were even fairly unknown. Head-to-head, EG's win percentage versus Liquid was about 60% in 2011 with even lesser popular players maintaining higher win percentages versus the more popular Liquid players.
Just wanted to clarify that 
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United States4796 Posts
These look more Liquid favored.
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wold like to see a real "foreign team league" where no koreans are allowed
Sounds like a boring league indeed.
Why not just call it "Code C: The Best of the Rest"
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On March 21 2012 01:47 nvs. wrote:Sounds like a boring league indeed. Why not just call it "Code C: The Best of the Rest"
well first of all foreigners are not that bad (and if you compare them to yourself they are gods xD) and it's still better than "b level korean mercenaries own up the rest"
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EPT
