On January 30 2012 14:13 Ghanburighan wrote: [quote]
You make no sense. Leaving any tournament is unprofessional, whether you know you'll be penalized or not. That's because you've made a commitment to the organizers and fans. It doesn't matter what his excuse is, he should not make the decision not to play the game. That's what professionalism is about, doing the right thing yourself.
No, it's not unprofessional. It's bad entertainment. But the concept of forfeiture is integral to any fair competition. Unless you see a player's profession purely in entertaining you.
Tell that to the volunteers busting their asses to make this tournament happen. "Don't worry guys, Stephano had a bad entertainment day. Your work and effort is for naught, but try again next time, perhaps you'll get lucky."
You really, really have to separate formal and informal misbehavior. I know I have already used that sentence and get tired of having to repeat it.
It's disappointing, yes. It is disrespecting towards the organizer, fans and parts of the community. That is out of question.
But regarding the competitive spirit he literally did nothing wrong. He discontinued to compete once he felt not being able to any more. He notified the organizer.
The concept professional has about 4 aspects to it. a) Doing something as a job. b) Being qualified. c) Doing it constantly. d) Being worthy of being considered a professional because your behaviour is appropriate.
You only look at the first 3 aspects, if those, and completely forget the fourth. Ask a lawyer, or doctor, or university professor what "professional" means and I bet you anything that they'll spend most of their time explaining the fourth as in the end, the whole system relies on that, and the other follow. If people keep pulling Naniwa's on tournaments, we'll soon find tournaments disappear or become Kespa-like and the fun we're having now disappear.
The difference is the direct entanglement of entertainment and competition in eSports. As public expectations are subject to change, such a delicate industry would be well-advised to clear this matter once and for all. The reason is that forfeiture is not any insignificant or rare matter.
To be able to fulfill point 4, it is imperative to find a coherent ruling. The problem I have is less the forfeiture itself, but that there are no existing rules about it at all. Today Stephano was effectively fined 600$ for a forfeit in the finals of a tournament. Next time another player could face another punishment over a different sum at the round of 8. Or you forfeit playing for place 7/8 at MLG and loose all your points for this particular run. And at Homestory cup suddenly it might not have any consequences at all.
Talking about demotion to 4th is distracting. Let's concentrate on the topic at hand. Stephano should have never left. Whatever happened after that bears to consequence on the simple fact that it's unprofessional of him to leave a tournament, especially at this stage. And you speak of forfeiting games as if it were somehow acceptable in sport, but it surely is not. Only major injuries lead to forfeits in real sports with real professionals. The fact that it happens in SC2 is a very bad sign and it should be uniformly denounced by everyone for the good of the community.
And that is where the major rift between us lies. I may accept an arbitrary -but universal- rule depending on the actual formulation of applicable cases and severity of punishment. You on the other hand defy the concept of forfeiture by principle based on your personal view on professionalism- of which point 4 is heavily based on subjective morality.
If morality is subjective, I deem you worthy of being painted pink. And you know I'm right, because whatever my personal values say, is ok, right? So when I find you, and I paint you pink, you'll have to admit that I'm right to do so.
Or neither of us is right
You still get painted pink... Or, in more Hobbesian terms, killed by the superior or the inferior.
Damn, how did I not hear about this awesome tournament. Actually I think I did a little bit before since I think I recall Rotterdam playing (and he took out Tyler? :O) but I'm disappointed I missed a tournament with such a cool lineup. Having Rotterdam, Flo and other players you might not see with some higher tier players like Kas and Stephano is cool IMO. I guess it might be boring to some, but the wide range makes it interesting to me, and gives people a shot to pull through and get a bit of the spotlight.
Thanks for hosting the tournament, despite me missing it. >.< I only heard of it because of the whole Stephano business.
Kind of funny with all these people trying to logically work their way through Stephano's actions as somehow being professional. Might want to dig deep inside and try to find your humanity again, the dude was unprofessional today.
On January 30 2012 15:01 Chicane wrote: Damn, how did I not hear about this awesome tournament. Actually I think I did a little bit before since I think I recall Rotterdam playing (and he took out Tyler? :O) but I'm disappointed I missed a tournament with such a cool lineup. Having Rotterdam, Flo and other players you might not see with some higher tier players like Kas and Stephano is cool IMO. I guess it might be boring to some, but the wide range makes it interesting to me, and gives people a shot to pull through and get a bit of the spotlight.
Thanks for hosting the tournament, despite me missing it. >.< I only heard of it because of the whole Stephano business.
Tyler didnt lose to Rotterdam. Tyler forfeited the rest of his matches after losing 0-2 to catz
On January 30 2012 15:01 Chicane wrote: Damn, how did I not hear about this awesome tournament. Actually I think I did a little bit before since I think I recall Rotterdam playing (and he took out Tyler? :O) but I'm disappointed I missed a tournament with such a cool lineup. Having Rotterdam, Flo and other players you might not see with some higher tier players like Kas and Stephano is cool IMO. I guess it might be boring to some, but the wide range makes it interesting to me, and gives people a shot to pull through and get a bit of the spotlight.
Thanks for hosting the tournament, despite me missing it. >.< I only heard of it because of the whole Stephano business.
Tyler didnt lose to Rotterdam. Tyler forfeited the rest of his matches after losing 0-2 to catz
Ahh thank you. That's good to know, because that would have looked bad for Tyler.
On January 30 2012 15:01 Chicane wrote: Damn, how did I not hear about this awesome tournament. Actually I think I did a little bit before since I think I recall Rotterdam playing (and he took out Tyler? :O) but I'm disappointed I missed a tournament with such a cool lineup. Having Rotterdam, Flo and other players you might not see with some higher tier players like Kas and Stephano is cool IMO. I guess it might be boring to some, but the wide range makes it interesting to me, and gives people a shot to pull through and get a bit of the spotlight.
Thanks for hosting the tournament, despite me missing it. >.< I only heard of it because of the whole Stephano business.
Tyler didnt lose to Rotterdam. Tyler forfeited the rest of his matches after losing 0-2 to catz
Ahh thank you. That's good to know, because that would have looked bad for Tyler.
forfeiting after a loss doesn't exactly make him look good, does it? But yeah, still not as bad as losing to a caster. =)
On January 30 2012 15:01 Chicane wrote: Damn, how did I not hear about this awesome tournament. Actually I think I did a little bit before since I think I recall Rotterdam playing (and he took out Tyler? :O) but I'm disappointed I missed a tournament with such a cool lineup. Having Rotterdam, Flo and other players you might not see with some higher tier players like Kas and Stephano is cool IMO. I guess it might be boring to some, but the wide range makes it interesting to me, and gives people a shot to pull through and get a bit of the spotlight.
Thanks for hosting the tournament, despite me missing it. >.< I only heard of it because of the whole Stephano business.
Tyler didnt lose to Rotterdam. Tyler forfeited the rest of his matches after losing 0-2 to catz
Ahh thank you. That's good to know, because that would have looked bad for Tyler.
Like forfeiting after one set make him look good...
On the side note. Would you people prefere Stephano forfeiting finals or doing drone rush every game of the finals? Im asking so i will know what you guys think is more disrespectfull to the organisers and the audience.
Just another demonstration of stephano's attitude towards the game. Koreans regularly stay up until 8 am to participate in the tournaments and stephano no doubt knew the tournament might run quite late. Didn't even have the decency to apologize to fans
On January 30 2012 13:37 CEPEHDREI wrote: Wasnt Stephano the one who delayed this tournament himself by letting Illusion wait?
Exactly...
As much as I want to fault ONOG for not paying out a legitimate 2nd place title... It is really tough considering that Stephano delayed the game for an hour himself.
He didn't seem too tired when he was talking in game about the fish, mashed potato's, and broccoli that he cooked himself while the entire tournament and viewers waited.This is not a quick meal to cook and eat.
When I first got the word of the 4th place demotion. I called bull. He won 2nd. However, when you think of this growing industry, and the fact that these online tournaments make a good portion of their prize pool from viewers and advertising, Stephano deserve's anything the tournament wants to do with his status. The stream had almost 20k viewers when I turned it off.
Does anyone know if Stephano gave the organizers a chance to talk about rescheduling? The thread implies that he said forfeit and logged off. That furthers the validity of his demotion because if he didn't ask for rescheduling, and they make their money from games being shown...Where does that leave the tournament? They obviously want/need to show more meaningful content to hit their ad revenue.
As a fan of Stephano's play, I have to admit his arrogance and egocentrism is staggering. This type of unprofessionalism is not worthy of invitational tournaments.
He did ask for rescheduling but they sayd no. And thats the hole problem. Then Stephano proberly got pissed and sayd well ill forfeit to Kas and then we got this incident
Most people aren't arguing that Stephano behaved professionally, but, rather, that ONOG was also unprofessional in the way they handled the situation. Forfeiting a match that people were waiting to see played may have consequences for Stephano in the future, certainly, but he obviously wasn't going to throw the games quickly after the recent drama over Naniwa. ONOG, however, behaved in an equally unprofessional manner by revoking the earned prize money of a player without notifying the player (as they admittedly report that Stephano was offline and they had no means of contacting him, which, in itself, is highly unprofessional).
This is a case of both parties behaving in a disrespectful and unprofessional manner, not a battle between who you like/hate more. Stephano deserves his money and to be viewed with the approbation he deserves. ONOG should have thought about the possibilities and prepared in advance. If they think it's fair and professional to back on out advertised prize pools, they should probably get their players to sign a contract.
The problem is that, as an organization, ONOG saddles the other side of the equation we've seen previously in posts regarding tournament winnings and shady organizations. Sure, players (without rehashing the numerous cases we've seen recently) have their own issues, but when tournaments arbitrarily screw players over citing entertainment value, it sets a bad precedent. They clearly stated that the reason Stephano was not given his earned prize was due to his performance not being worthy of a $1,500 final set of games. What performance is worthy, then? If he cheesed out the matches, would that be worthy? If he threw the games entirely, would that be worthy? If the games were just boring, would that be worthy? Was Stephano's performance over the course of the tournament only worth 4th place? Should we start giving out prize money based on how entertaining games were? While the ShoutCraft tip jar is perhaps a great idea, changing advertised prize amounts based on perceived entertainment value is not. Not only that, but was any money made off advertising during the Stephano games? How many viewers can be attributed to having watched specifically for Stephano? There are a lot of less-tangible factors that would come into play.
ONOG didn't think. They made an idiotic split-second decision, and they should pay Stephano his winnings (and, well, I guess pay Illusion the same). Stephano should make yet another PR apology to fans, because everyone knows it won't be sincere and that he probably doesn't care.
I know I'd certainly never support an ONOG event again. They've basically fallen into the trap that plagues esports at the moment:
1 - No back-up plan. Obviously, by now, this is necessity. It is your responsibility to entertain viewers.
2 - Arbitrary revoking/modifying prize pools with no notice to players. This is just disgusting, whether or not Stephano "deserved it" for his behaviour or not. It's not up to you to decide whether matches (or non-matches) were "worth" money unless players have agreed to this beforehand. It is your responsible to payout as advertised.
If Stephano deserves to be banned from tournaments for his unprofessional behaviour, ONOG deserves to be boycotted by players for theirs. You can't have it both ways; professionalism should be displayed from both sides, or we're never going to get anywhere.
On January 30 2012 10:15 RHoudini wrote: Sad that Stephano did not learn from the Naniwa incident at the GSL. Showing so little respect for the tournament organization and spectators. Sad...
anyone who things this way is dumb... you probably never was so tired to understand those players who simply dont care about anything anymore.they just want to sleep for a week. this isnt card game or chess game where you can sit and sleep..this is proly the most intense pc game.
Most people aren't arguing that Stephano behaved professionally, but, rather, that ONOG was also unprofessional in the way they handled the situation. Forfeiting a match that people were waiting to see played may have consequences for Stephano in the future, certainly, but he obviously wasn't going to throw the games quickly after the recent drama over Naniwa. ONOG, however, behaved in an equally unprofessional manner by revoking the earned prize money of a player without notifying the player (as they admittedly report that Stephano was offline and they had no means of contacting him, which, in itself, is highly unprofessional).
This is a case of both parties behaving in a disrespectful and unprofessional manner, not a battle between who you like/hate more. Stephano deserves his money and to be viewed with the approbation he deserves. ONOG should have thought about the possibilities and prepared in advance. If they think it's fair and professional to back on out advertised prize pools, they should probably get their players to sign a contract.
The problem is that, as an organization, ONOG saddles the other side of the equation we've seen previously in posts regarding tournament winnings and shady organizations. Sure, players (without rehashing the numerous cases we've seen recently) have their own issues, but when tournaments arbitrarily screw players over citing entertainment value, it sets a bad precedent. They clearly stated that the reason Stephano was not given his earned prize was due to his performance not being worthy of a $1,500 final set of games. What performance is worthy, then? If he cheesed out the matches, would that be worthy? If he threw the games entirely, would that be worthy? If the games were just boring, would that be worthy? Was Stephano's performance over the course of the tournament only worth 4th place? Should we start giving out prize money based on how entertaining games were? While the ShoutCraft tip jar is perhaps a great idea, changing advertised prize amounts based on perceived entertainment value is not. Not only that, but was any money made off advertising during the Stephano games? How many viewers can be attributed to having watched specifically for Stephano? There are a lot of less-tangible factors that would come into play.
ONOG didn't think. They made an idiotic split-second decision, and they should pay Stephano his winnings (and, well, I guess pay Illusion the same). Stephano should make yet another PR apology to fans, because everyone knows it won't be sincere and that he probably doesn't care.
I know I'd certainly never support an ONOG event again. They've basically fallen into the trap that plagues esports at the moment:
1 - No back-up plan. Obviously, by now, this is necessity. It is your responsibility to entertain viewers.
2 - Arbitrary revoking/modifying prize pools with no notice to players. This is just disgusting, whether or not Stephano "deserved it" for his behaviour or not. It's not up to you to decide whether matches (or non-matches) were "worth" money unless players have agreed to this beforehand. It is your responsible to payout as advertised.
If Stephano deserves to be banned from tournaments for his unprofessional behaviour, ONOG deserves to be boycotted by players for theirs. You can't have it both ways; professionalism should be displayed from both sides, or we're never going to get anywhere.
Shaberu you proberly the best "new poster" I ever seen. You post are well written and you got some excellent points. Only problem I got with you are that you make me look so bad
On January 30 2012 10:15 RHoudini wrote: Sad that Stephano did not learn from the Naniwa incident at the GSL. Showing so little respect for the tournament organization and spectators. Sad...
anyone who things this way is dumb... you probably never was so tired to understand those players who simply dont care about anything anymore.they just want to sleep for a week. this isnt card game or chess game where you can sit and sleep..this is proly the most intense pc game.
No, you have it backwards. The people who think like you is the reason why e-sports will never go mainstream or attract mainstream sponsors. There's too much unprofessionalism in the scene still and fans like yourself let players get away with it, so they never learn. People would rather just cheer for their favourite players while excusing everything they do wrong and blame others.
shaberu while that is a very reasonable and well argued post, it's a bit disingenuous to say they backed out on advertised prize pools and that screwed "players over citing entertainment value". It's an entirely reasonable position for the tournament to say that forfeiting a match means you forfeit the whole tournament. It's also not reasonable to expect a small tournament like this to prepare for everything in advance and when an unexpected situation arises, the decision is left to admins. It was not arbitrary.
On January 30 2012 15:24 syllogism wrote: Just another demonstration of stephano's attitude towards the game. Koreans regularly stay up until 8 am to participate in the tournaments and stephano no doubt knew the tournament might run quite late. Didn't even have the decency to apologize to fans
The funny part is, a lot of Koreans stayed up all night/morning to play in the TLOpens for $100 too.
On January 30 2012 10:15 RHoudini wrote: Sad that Stephano did not learn from the Naniwa incident at the GSL. Showing so little respect for the tournament organization and spectators. Sad...
anyone who things this way is dumb... you probably never was so tired to understand those players who simply dont care about anything anymore.they just want to sleep for a week. this isnt card game or chess game where you can sit and sleep..this is proly the most intense pc game.
No, you have it backwards. The people who think like you is the reason why e-sports will never go mainstream or attract mainstream sponsors. There's too much unprofessionalism in the scene still and fans like yourself let players get away with it, so they never learn. People would rather just cheer for their favourite players while excusing everything they do wrong and blame others.
Ok, personaly I belive E-sport never will go mainstream becuase of people like you bitching and going emo over every little thing there is.
If is not the casters then its the stream. If it isnt the stream then its the players. If is not the players then is balance if is not balance then its something els. Complain, complain bla bla bla
I mean I might cut him some slack if he was working a 40 hour a week job and had to play the tournament after a day of manual labor, but this guy is a progamer who signed up for a tournament. Its his freaking JOB to do it, and unless he had already been up for over 24 hours straight it really isn't difficult to stay up a couple hours more, especially with the potential to win a decent amount of money.
I understand that the matches were long drawn out for players in the EU, I just want to say that why don't ONOG and SCAN comprimised a mutual time for all players? I wonder how these tournaments were set up so they got so close to each other. Stephano should have really just picked one. However, I would not want to watch Stephano playing tired and throwing games away/lose. I watched snippet of Stephano vs vileIllusion Game 4 in ONOG, Stephano is apparently just wanted to end by going huge roach aggression, there were no drones mining in his 3rd or 4th, he just wanted it to end. I don't really want to watch at all. From that standpoint, I think Stephano made a correct decision for himself (not for ONOG or Kas of course). For ONOG I think they really should get a mutual time for all players and cannot let the EU players play till 6am in the morning.
EPT
