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On January 30 2012 15:24 syllogism wrote:
Just another demonstration of stephano's attitude towards the game. Koreans regularly stay up until 8 am to participate in the tournaments and stephano no doubt knew the tournament might run quite late. Didn't even have the decency to apologize to fans
Polt forfeited Zotac cup finals yesterday, how strange it is that you don't mention that.
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On January 30 2012 15:47 Mosquitow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 15:24 syllogism wrote:
Just another demonstration of stephano's attitude towards the game. Koreans regularly stay up until 8 am to participate in the tournaments and stephano no doubt knew the tournament might run quite late. Didn't even have the decency to apologize to fans Polt forfeited Zotac cup finals yesterday, how strange it is that you don't mention that.
Becuase its Stephano you know the player everyone loves to hate becuase he is to good and not american!
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How come Kas can play in the same tournies and still stay up?
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"canadian Zerg" :facepalm:
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On January 30 2012 15:29 shaberu wrote:
Most people aren't arguing that Stephano behaved professionally, but, rather, that ONOG was also unprofessional in the way they handled the situation. Forfeiting a match that people were waiting to see played may have consequences for Stephano in the future, certainly, but he obviously wasn't going to throw the games quickly after the recent drama over Naniwa. ONOG, however, behaved in an equally unprofessional manner by revoking the earned prize money of a player without notifying the player (as they admittedly report that Stephano was offline and they had no means of contacting him, which, in itself, is highly unprofessional).
This is a case of both parties behaving in a disrespectful and unprofessional manner, not a battle between who you like/hate more. Stephano deserves his money and to be viewed with the approbation he deserves. ONOG should have thought about the possibilities and prepared in advance. If they think it's fair and professional to back on out advertised prize pools, they should probably get their players to sign a contract.
The problem is that, as an organization, ONOG saddles the other side of the equation we've seen previously in posts regarding tournament winnings and shady organizations. Sure, players (without rehashing the numerous cases we've seen recently) have their own issues, but when tournaments arbitrarily screw players over citing entertainment value, it sets a bad precedent. They clearly stated that the reason Stephano was not given his earned prize was due to his performance not being worthy of a $1,500 final set of games. What performance is worthy, then? If he cheesed out the matches, would that be worthy? If he threw the games entirely, would that be worthy? If the games were just boring, would that be worthy? Was Stephano's performance over the course of the tournament only worth 4th place? Should we start giving out prize money based on how entertaining games were? While the ShoutCraft tip jar is perhaps a great idea, changing advertised prize amounts based on perceived entertainment value is not. Not only that, but was any money made off advertising during the Stephano games? How many viewers can be attributed to having watched specifically for Stephano? There are a lot of less-tangible factors that would come into play.
ONOG didn't think. They made an idiotic split-second decision, and they should pay Stephano his winnings (and, well, I guess pay Illusion the same). Stephano should make yet another PR apology to fans, because everyone knows it won't be sincere and that he probably doesn't care.
I know I'd certainly never support an ONOG event again. They've basically fallen into the trap that plagues esports at the moment:
1 - No back-up plan. Obviously, by now, this is necessity. It is your responsibility to entertain viewers.
2 - Arbitrary revoking/modifying prize pools with no notice to players. This is just disgusting, whether or not Stephano "deserved it" for his behaviour or not. It's not up to you to decide whether matches (or non-matches) were "worth" money unless players have agreed to this beforehand. It is your responsible to payout as advertised.
If Stephano deserves to be banned from tournaments for his unprofessional behaviour, ONOG deserves to be boycotted by players for theirs. You can't have it both ways; professionalism should be displayed from both sides, or we're never going to get anywhere.
As a player, I completely disagree.
I give three reasons for my disagreement, and I believe it's entirely Stephano's fault. Here is why:
1. Stephano was playing two tournaments at once, and forced a 40 minute delay of his semi-final. This in itself is quite rude and could have warranted a walkover being given. Obviously ONOG was trying their best to avoid the situation, but it still does not look good for Stephano.
2. ONOG offered Stephano to play the finals immediately, and to cast from replays, rather than wait for the third place match. This is an extremely generous and lenient offer, and Stephano simply gave ONOG an ultimatum and logged off.
3. It's ridiculously irresponsible of Stephano to log off knowing they have none of your contact info, after giving a ridiculous ultimatum they can't afford to meet. ONOG had outlined the schedule of the tournament beforehand, and Stephano completely disrespected this after ACCEPTING HIS INVITATION and playing through the entire day without any complaint or warning to ONOG. Perhaps he could've said earlier "I don't think I can play the finals at this time" but he simply waited til then, said he was tired, and gave ONOG no opportunity to provide a real solution. "I was tired" is a ridiculous excuse for the finals of a tournament, and cheesing or even drone rushing the finals is by far more respectable than what Stephano did. No one can force a player to try his best one hundred percent, but by accepting an invitation or signing up for a tournament, you're agreeing to play it through. It's ridiculous that we should have to contract players to every tournament, and as a player I completely support and respect ONOG's decision.
The advertised prizemoney was assuming that he actually did complete the tournament placing in second. He obviously didn't do that. Had he reasonably earned the second place money? Possibly, but the three reasons above IMO give plenty of evidence that ONOG tried their hardest to find a solution and simply couldn't under Stephano's absurd terms.
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On January 30 2012 15:54 IMoperator wrote:
How come Kas can play in the same tournies and still stay up?
Maybe Kas is a night person and stephano isn't? Maybe Kas' internal clock was more in synch with the schedule atm? Maybe Stephano wasn't feeling well? You don't know, and I don't know, so neither of us are qualified to comment, much less judge (like 99% of the fine TL'ers in this thread.. pathetic).
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On January 30 2012 15:54 IMoperator wrote:
How come Kas can play in the same tournies and still stay up?
You can't compare a terminator to a mere fleshling...
Joking aside.... Kas could have taken a nap in between the both since he wasn't playing in SCAN's finals
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So... Who won, Illusion or Kas?
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On January 30 2012 16:06 Bagi wrote:
So... Who won, Illusion or Kas?
Kas 4-1 Illusion
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did polt forfeit the match because he needed to go sleep? I highly doubt it, knowing his character, we know that he had a good reason to.
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On January 30 2012 16:07 Pokebunny wrote:Kas 4-1 Illusion
Thanks, Liquipedia isn't updated for some reason.
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On January 30 2012 16:15 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 16:07 Pokebunny wrote:On January 30 2012 16:06 Bagi wrote:
So... Who won, Illusion or Kas? Kas 4-1 Illusion Thanks, Liquipedia isn't updated for some reason.
Yeah, I took care of it.
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On January 30 2012 15:47 Mosquitow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 15:24 syllogism wrote:
Just another demonstration of stephano's attitude towards the game. Koreans regularly stay up until 8 am to participate in the tournaments and stephano no doubt knew the tournament might run quite late. Didn't even have the decency to apologize to fans Polt forfeited Zotac cup finals yesterday, how strange it is that you don't mention that.
How is that strange? Am I supposed to be aware of every single instance of this occurring and make a list? It would have been fine for zotac admins do the same, though the situations are clearly different. One, this is a barcraft tournament so presumably there were "live" viewers. Two, it was likely very late (early) in Korea which was not the case here. The latter isn't all that relevant for the actual decision, but still makes it is more understandable. I also do not know if Zotac admins told him that forfeiting is fine or if they offered him a chance to play the match earlier than scheduled or even offered to reschedule. Perhaps the cup was running way behind schedule, which wasn't the case here as far as I know.
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So now players are unallowed to forfeit? Silly! Soon the tournament rules will say that You are not allowed to chees, or go for the timing push, after all games should be long and drawn out.
PS.I am not saying that Stepahanos behavior was propoer, it wasnt. But it was within his right to do so.
PS2. I am fine with DQ Stephano for playing two tournamnets at once, and not being able to play on shedule, but once the games has been played You cant just change the result. Stephano earned second place.
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On January 30 2012 16:33 Silvanel wrote:
So now players are unallowed to forfeit? Silly! Soon the tournament rules will say that You are not allowed to chees, or go for the timing push, after all games should be long and drawn out.
PS.I am not saying that Stepahanos behavior was propoer, it wasnt. But it was within his right to do so.
That's ridiculous. If he didn't want to play, why would he accept an invitation?
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This thread has the highest density of the terms "(un)respectful" and "(un)professional" I've ever seen on the web. Amazing.
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On January 30 2012 16:33 Silvanel wrote:
So now players are unallowed to forfeit? Silly! Soon the tournament rules will say that You are not allowed to chees, or go for the timing push, after all games should be long and drawn out.
PS.I am not saying that Stepahanos behavior was propoer, it wasnt. But it was within his right to do so.
It obviously always depends on the context. Forfeiting a meaningless match is much more understandable and less damaging to the tournament and the viewers than forfeiting the finals. Actions have consequences and a player forfeiting finals should have foreseen this as a possible consequence.
Also a reminder:
Hey everyone, I'm the President of ONOG. I just wanted to clear up the air regarding Stephano's and Illusion's match.
The problem is not with Stephano but with us. After SCAN finished, Stephano asked if he could take a break and get some food. We told him he could. This caused him to late. Since One Nation of Gamers gave Stephano the green light, we couldn't -in fairness- disqualify him.
We shouldn't have told Stephano it was alright without, at least, asking vileIllusion's permission.
We apologize to vileIllusion, Team Vile and to the community. We will try to do better in our second Invitational.
Best,
Deric Ortiz
President of One Nation of Gamers
He was late 45 minutes and Illusion was quite annoyed.
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On January 30 2012 16:10 IMStyle wrote:
did polt forfeit the match because he needed to go sleep? I highly doubt it, knowing his character, we know that he had a good reason to.
dudes, have you ever been really tired?! i mean REALLY REALLY tired so you would fall asleep in seconds? i think sleeping is a VERY good reason. stephano is just consistent, some months ago he said he cant play for too long in a row, in addition to his tiredness forfeiting is just consequent. remember he was resigning 750$. i can't support the onog decision moving him to 4th, he earnd 2nd.
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Most of you are getting something wrong here. Stephano obviously got the invitations many weeks ago, heard that the onog finals are one day later than the scan inv. and probably didn't really check timezones. Maybe he did even check but think it would works somehow. Afterwards you always know better but i dont get why poeple need to shit on stephano now, he didn't do it because he is bm.
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Ah e-sports. Let no day pass by without drama occuring. TBH, this seems like a simple lack of mutual respect. ONOG felt like Stephano disrespected them by logging off and forfeiting the finals (which he did) and they retaliated to save face (and to ensure other players don't do the same thing). I feel like in a normal scenario, Stephano would've been handed his second place money, and then banned from any future ONOG events. However, the idea of being banned from a sporadic event where the players are decided by fan votes is pretty absurd, and Stephano probably would've laughed it off without a second thought. As such, ONOG hit him where it hurt in the only capability they had, by reducing his prize money while at the same time, ensuring a prize pool for the players still willing to play. In restrospect, they probably should've just DQed him completely which would've been much more clean and professional then messing with the rankings.
As for the people complaining about LiquidTyler, I agree based on the information that we have, that his situation is similar in principle to Stephano's. However, we live in a world based on consequences, not principles, and the consequences of what Stephano did affected the tournament a great deal more then what Tyler did. Tyler forfeited a number of matches that weren't going to be casted, and probably were never going to be seen. Stephano forfeited a BO7 finals which probably would've been a good 1-2 hours of entertainment the sponsors and organizers had been counting on showing on stream. Racism, nationalism, and other discriminatory factors had nothing to do with it. One simply hurt ONOG a lot more and thus was punished proportionately harsher.
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EPT
