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On January 30 2012 14:00 TangyOrange wrote:
Either Stephano knew that he would be penalised and left knowing so, which would make his decision perfectly reasonable and professional. Or he didn't know he would be penalised and ONOG is simply lashing out at him, being unprofessional and kind of failing their role as the tournament organisers to reward their participants for winning games.
No, I'm not trying to defend Stephano or attack ONOG, I'm just saying it as it is. Yes, I'm disappointed that I didn't get to see a Kas-Stephano finals but that doesn't mean that I should get upset and start lashing out at him.
For all those saying that Stephano is being "unprofessional", you might as well be saying "Mommy! Stephano broke my feelings!" because it is either a case where everybody was being professional, or ONOG wasn't.
No, I'm not saying that you should like what Stephano did, just accept it and if you really think that he shouldn't have done so then you don't have to support him. Simple as that. Don't start crying and whining (and, to be honest, bitching) over it.
You make no sense. Leaving any tournament is unprofessional, whether you know you'll be penalized or not. That's because you've made a commitment to the organizers and fans. It doesn't matter what his excuse is, he should not make the decision not to play the game. That's what professionalism is about, doing the right thing yourself.
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On January 30 2012 14:13 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 14:00 TangyOrange wrote:
Either Stephano knew that he would be penalised and left knowing so, which would make his decision perfectly reasonable and professional. Or he didn't know he would be penalised and ONOG is simply lashing out at him, being unprofessional and kind of failing their role as the tournament organisers to reward their participants for winning games.
No, I'm not trying to defend Stephano or attack ONOG, I'm just saying it as it is. Yes, I'm disappointed that I didn't get to see a Kas-Stephano finals but that doesn't mean that I should get upset and start lashing out at him.
For all those saying that Stephano is being "unprofessional", you might as well be saying "Mommy! Stephano broke my feelings!" because it is either a case where everybody was being professional, or ONOG wasn't.
No, I'm not saying that you should like what Stephano did, just accept it and if you really think that he shouldn't have done so then you don't have to support him. Simple as that. Don't start crying and whining (and, to be honest, bitching) over it. You make no sense. Leaving any tournament is unprofessional, whether you know you'll be penalized or not. That's because you've made a commitment to the organizers and fans. It doesn't matter what his excuse is, he should not make the decision not to play the game. That's what professionalism is about, doing the right thing yourself.
No, it's not unprofessional. It's bad entertainment. But the concept of forfeiture is integral to any fair competition. Unless you see a player's profession purely in entertaining you.
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On January 30 2012 13:59 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 13:50 s4life wrote:On January 30 2012 13:42 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 13:38 s4life wrote:On January 30 2012 13:30 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 13:22 s4life wrote:On January 30 2012 13:17 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 13:03 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 30 2012 13:00 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 12:34 habbey wrote:
[quote]
Yes, with respect to professionalism there is a difference... If in your business you blow off a minor meeting with a boss its different than blowing off the quarterly meeting with the board. Except Stephano was under no obligation to play. He surely dissatisfied organizer and fan expectations but surely didn't misconducted in any way regarding standard tournament regulations. Do you really need it in writing? Don't go all legal over this. I have to, since people are mixing up formal and informal misbehavior. Of course I was dissappointed of not having a Stephano vs Kas finals. Of course it has damaged the event. Of course it adds into the image of Stephano being a diva. But at the end of the day it's about a player waiving a game for whatever reason. But tournament rules are a way more serious matter. How should players know when it's appropriate to forfeit or not? Up to which stage of a tournament? Finals, Semi's, round of 8,16,32,64,128? How should it be decided to burn a player or not? Will you act as judge for all running events? Or should it be clarified before a player agrees to the terms of the tournament? Is forfeiting even a fundamental right they should have? Which event format should allow forfeiting and which shouldn't? That's such a moot point.. In any sport, if any player doesn't wanna play he simply doesn't play.. what are the organizers gonna do about it? send him to jail? Still, any player pulling that kind of shit has to pay a price for it.. I hope Stephano also pays a tangible price for his unprofessional behavior. See my above post It is indeed a moot point with you, since "Still, any player pulling that kind of shit has to pay a price for it" You already have made up your mind that forfeiting should not be tolerated, and should be punishable through exception clauses. The only thing I have brought up that there might not be a definite answer to it. My personal view includes granting players the fundamental right of forfeit. Your's would be the refusal of such a right. Your twisting of my words goes beyond the pale. Professional players of course can forfeit for valid, justifiable reasons, not for being tired or not 'feeling it' mind you.. if a pro tennis player quits in the final of a tennis tournament coz he was just tired, he absolutely deserves to be dismantled by the public and the organizers -- Henin got shredded when she did that against Mauresmo. If a player quits coz he pulled a muscle that's a completely different matter. When did I suggest otherwise? And you have been ignoring a large part of my posts. I explicitly raised the question of how such judgment should be formalized? If it stays in the realm of "open to organizer's disclosure". Event A punishes player for forfeiting in round of 8. Event B doesn't punish. Event C, etc. Oh but the rule for granting a forfeit is very simple: any forfeit that's due to an accident, or some factor that falls completely out of a player's responsibility should be allowed without punishment. Any other reason for forfeiting, including lack preparation -- as in Stephano's case -- should be reason enough to absolutely hammer the player for being unprofessional. That's a fair ground of discussion. Mind you, not everybody share's the same. I take it, your opinion is that the majority of forfeits of past MLG should have been punished with stripping of earned points up to that point?
How is not being able to fly to a tournament is comparable to what stephano did?
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On January 30 2012 14:18 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 13:59 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 13:50 s4life wrote:On January 30 2012 13:42 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 13:38 s4life wrote:On January 30 2012 13:30 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 13:22 s4life wrote:On January 30 2012 13:17 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 13:03 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 30 2012 13:00 rotegirte wrote:
[quote]
Except Stephano was under no obligation to play. He surely dissatisfied organizer and fan expectations but surely didn't misconducted in any way regarding standard tournament regulations. Do you really need it in writing? Don't go all legal over this. I have to, since people are mixing up formal and informal misbehavior. Of course I was dissappointed of not having a Stephano vs Kas finals. Of course it has damaged the event. Of course it adds into the image of Stephano being a diva. But at the end of the day it's about a player waiving a game for whatever reason. But tournament rules are a way more serious matter. How should players know when it's appropriate to forfeit or not? Up to which stage of a tournament? Finals, Semi's, round of 8,16,32,64,128? How should it be decided to burn a player or not? Will you act as judge for all running events? Or should it be clarified before a player agrees to the terms of the tournament? Is forfeiting even a fundamental right they should have? Which event format should allow forfeiting and which shouldn't? That's such a moot point.. In any sport, if any player doesn't wanna play he simply doesn't play.. what are the organizers gonna do about it? send him to jail? Still, any player pulling that kind of shit has to pay a price for it.. I hope Stephano also pays a tangible price for his unprofessional behavior. See my above post It is indeed a moot point with you, since "Still, any player pulling that kind of shit has to pay a price for it" You already have made up your mind that forfeiting should not be tolerated, and should be punishable through exception clauses. The only thing I have brought up that there might not be a definite answer to it. My personal view includes granting players the fundamental right of forfeit. Your's would be the refusal of such a right. Your twisting of my words goes beyond the pale. Professional players of course can forfeit for valid, justifiable reasons, not for being tired or not 'feeling it' mind you.. if a pro tennis player quits in the final of a tennis tournament coz he was just tired, he absolutely deserves to be dismantled by the public and the organizers -- Henin got shredded when she did that against Mauresmo. If a player quits coz he pulled a muscle that's a completely different matter. When did I suggest otherwise? And you have been ignoring a large part of my posts. I explicitly raised the question of how such judgment should be formalized? If it stays in the realm of "open to organizer's disclosure". Event A punishes player for forfeiting in round of 8. Event B doesn't punish. Event C, etc. Oh but the rule for granting a forfeit is very simple: any forfeit that's due to an accident, or some factor that falls completely out of a player's responsibility should be allowed without punishment. Any other reason for forfeiting, including lack preparation -- as in Stephano's case -- should be reason enough to absolutely hammer the player for being unprofessional. That's a fair ground of discussion. Mind you, not everybody share's the same. I take it, your opinion is that the majority of forfeits of past MLG should have been punished with stripping of earned points up to that point? How is not being able to fly to a tournament is comparable to what stephano did?
I'm speaking of consolation games?
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So Stephano gave away $600 because he was too tired to log on and lose 4 games?
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On January 30 2012 14:17 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 14:13 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:00 TangyOrange wrote:
Either Stephano knew that he would be penalised and left knowing so, which would make his decision perfectly reasonable and professional. Or he didn't know he would be penalised and ONOG is simply lashing out at him, being unprofessional and kind of failing their role as the tournament organisers to reward their participants for winning games.
No, I'm not trying to defend Stephano or attack ONOG, I'm just saying it as it is. Yes, I'm disappointed that I didn't get to see a Kas-Stephano finals but that doesn't mean that I should get upset and start lashing out at him.
For all those saying that Stephano is being "unprofessional", you might as well be saying "Mommy! Stephano broke my feelings!" because it is either a case where everybody was being professional, or ONOG wasn't.
No, I'm not saying that you should like what Stephano did, just accept it and if you really think that he shouldn't have done so then you don't have to support him. Simple as that. Don't start crying and whining (and, to be honest, bitching) over it. You make no sense. Leaving any tournament is unprofessional, whether you know you'll be penalized or not. That's because you've made a commitment to the organizers and fans. It doesn't matter what his excuse is, he should not make the decision not to play the game. That's what professionalism is about, doing the right thing yourself. No, it's not unprofessional. It's bad entertainment. But the concept of forfeiture is integral to any fair competition. Unless you see a player's profession purely in entertaining you.
Tell that to the volunteers busting their asses to make this tournament happen. "Don't worry guys, Stephano had a bad entertainment day. Your work and effort is for naught, but try again next time, perhaps you'll get lucky."
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On January 30 2012 14:21 MrSexington wrote:
So Stephano gave away $600 because he was too tired to log on and lose 4 games?
Yes. It's also a player being fined $600 because he was too tired to log on and loose 4 games.
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On January 30 2012 14:21 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 14:17 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 14:13 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:00 TangyOrange wrote:
Either Stephano knew that he would be penalised and left knowing so, which would make his decision perfectly reasonable and professional. Or he didn't know he would be penalised and ONOG is simply lashing out at him, being unprofessional and kind of failing their role as the tournament organisers to reward their participants for winning games.
No, I'm not trying to defend Stephano or attack ONOG, I'm just saying it as it is. Yes, I'm disappointed that I didn't get to see a Kas-Stephano finals but that doesn't mean that I should get upset and start lashing out at him.
For all those saying that Stephano is being "unprofessional", you might as well be saying "Mommy! Stephano broke my feelings!" because it is either a case where everybody was being professional, or ONOG wasn't.
No, I'm not saying that you should like what Stephano did, just accept it and if you really think that he shouldn't have done so then you don't have to support him. Simple as that. Don't start crying and whining (and, to be honest, bitching) over it. You make no sense. Leaving any tournament is unprofessional, whether you know you'll be penalized or not. That's because you've made a commitment to the organizers and fans. It doesn't matter what his excuse is, he should not make the decision not to play the game. That's what professionalism is about, doing the right thing yourself. No, it's not unprofessional. It's bad entertainment. But the concept of forfeiture is integral to any fair competition. Unless you see a player's profession purely in entertaining you. Tell that to the volunteers busting their asses to make this tournament happen. "Don't worry guys, Stephano had a bad entertainment day. Your work and effort is for naught, but try again next time, perhaps you'll get lucky."
You really, really have to separate formal and informal misbehavior. I know I have already used that sentence and get tired of having to repeat it.
It's disappointing, yes. It is disrespecting towards the organizer, fans and parts of the community. That is out of question.
But regarding the competitive spirit he literally did nothing wrong. He discontinued to compete once he felt not being able to any more. He notified the organizer.
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On January 30 2012 14:27 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 14:21 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:17 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 14:13 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:00 TangyOrange wrote:
Either Stephano knew that he would be penalised and left knowing so, which would make his decision perfectly reasonable and professional. Or he didn't know he would be penalised and ONOG is simply lashing out at him, being unprofessional and kind of failing their role as the tournament organisers to reward their participants for winning games.
No, I'm not trying to defend Stephano or attack ONOG, I'm just saying it as it is. Yes, I'm disappointed that I didn't get to see a Kas-Stephano finals but that doesn't mean that I should get upset and start lashing out at him.
For all those saying that Stephano is being "unprofessional", you might as well be saying "Mommy! Stephano broke my feelings!" because it is either a case where everybody was being professional, or ONOG wasn't.
No, I'm not saying that you should like what Stephano did, just accept it and if you really think that he shouldn't have done so then you don't have to support him. Simple as that. Don't start crying and whining (and, to be honest, bitching) over it. You make no sense. Leaving any tournament is unprofessional, whether you know you'll be penalized or not. That's because you've made a commitment to the organizers and fans. It doesn't matter what his excuse is, he should not make the decision not to play the game. That's what professionalism is about, doing the right thing yourself. No, it's not unprofessional. It's bad entertainment. But the concept of forfeiture is integral to any fair competition. Unless you see a player's profession purely in entertaining you. Tell that to the volunteers busting their asses to make this tournament happen. "Don't worry guys, Stephano had a bad entertainment day. Your work and effort is for naught, but try again next time, perhaps you'll get lucky." You really, really have to separate formal and informal misbehavior. I know I have already used that sentence and get tired of having to repeat it. It's disappointing, yes. It is disrespecting towards the organizer, fans and parts of the community. That is out of question. But regarding the competitive spirit he literally did nothing wrong. He discontinued to compete once he felt not being able to any more. He notified the organizer.
The concept professional has about 4 aspects to it.
a) Doing something as a job.
b) Being qualified.
c) Doing it constantly.
d) Being worthy of being considered a professional because your behaviour is appropriate.
You only look at the first 3 aspects, if those, and completely forget the fourth. Ask a lawyer, or doctor, or university professor what "professional" means and I bet you anything that they'll spend most of their time explaining the fourth as in the end, the whole system relies on that, and the other follow. Edit: You probably want clarification: appropriate behaviour includes only acting when you know you can uphold your high criteria. You construe it as a licence to give up, but the real way to read it is to never slip and to always prepare well enough not to need excuses. He accepted the invitation, and should have taken the time to do his upmost.
If people keep pulling Naniwa's on tournaments, we'll soon find tournaments disappear or become Kespa-like and the fun we're having now disappear.
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Stephano is being unprofessional. There were so many people that wanted to burn Naniwa over a game that didn't even matter. The games he played had $$$$ on the line and he just leaves in the finals. Stephano basically just said "Fuck You" to the viewers, and to ONOG. I don't understand how anyone can consider that acceptable behavior, he has to take responsibility for his actions. I believe ONOG did the best with what they had and I think docking him the $600 is fine.
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Why would you organize tournament that finishes at 6am european time, when it's obvious that 2 euros will be in the finals ?
You are doomed to have bad games.
this post has nothing to do with the situation that occured !
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On January 30 2012 14:27 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 14:21 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:17 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 14:13 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:00 TangyOrange wrote:
Either Stephano knew that he would be penalised and left knowing so, which would make his decision perfectly reasonable and professional. Or he didn't know he would be penalised and ONOG is simply lashing out at him, being unprofessional and kind of failing their role as the tournament organisers to reward their participants for winning games.
No, I'm not trying to defend Stephano or attack ONOG, I'm just saying it as it is. Yes, I'm disappointed that I didn't get to see a Kas-Stephano finals but that doesn't mean that I should get upset and start lashing out at him.
For all those saying that Stephano is being "unprofessional", you might as well be saying "Mommy! Stephano broke my feelings!" because it is either a case where everybody was being professional, or ONOG wasn't.
No, I'm not saying that you should like what Stephano did, just accept it and if you really think that he shouldn't have done so then you don't have to support him. Simple as that. Don't start crying and whining (and, to be honest, bitching) over it. You make no sense. Leaving any tournament is unprofessional, whether you know you'll be penalized or not. That's because you've made a commitment to the organizers and fans. It doesn't matter what his excuse is, he should not make the decision not to play the game. That's what professionalism is about, doing the right thing yourself. No, it's not unprofessional. It's bad entertainment. But the concept of forfeiture is integral to any fair competition. Unless you see a player's profession purely in entertaining you. Tell that to the volunteers busting their asses to make this tournament happen. "Don't worry guys, Stephano had a bad entertainment day. Your work and effort is for naught, but try again next time, perhaps you'll get lucky." You really, really have to separate formal and informal misbehavior. I know I have already used that sentence and get tired of having to repeat it. It's disappointing, yes. It is disrespecting towards the organizer, fans and parts of the community. That is out of question. But regarding the competitive spirit he literally did nothing wrong. He discontinued to compete once he felt not being able to any more. He notified the organizer.
He should have scheduled his sleep so this wouldn't have happened or he should have declined his invitation. He didn't do anything wrong in the moment, but not planning ahead for an invitational event is being unprofessional.
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On January 30 2012 13:37 CEPEHDREI wrote:
Wasnt Stephano the one who delayed this tournament himself by letting Illusion wait?
Exactly...
As much as I want to fault ONOG for not paying out a legitimate 2nd place title... It is really tough considering that Stephano delayed the game for an hour himself.
He didn't seem too tired when he was talking in game about the fish, mashed potato's, and broccoli that he cooked himself while the entire tournament and viewers waited.This is not a quick meal to cook and eat.
When I first got the word of the 4th place demotion. I called bull. He won 2nd. However, when you think of this growing industry, and the fact that these online tournaments make a good portion of their prize pool from viewers and advertising, Stephano deserve's anything the tournament wants to do with his status. The stream had almost 20k viewers when I turned it off.
Does anyone know if Stephano gave the organizers a chance to talk about rescheduling? The thread implies that he said forfeit and logged off. That furthers the validity of his demotion because if he didn't ask for rescheduling, and they make their money from games being shown...Where does that leave the tournament? They obviously want/need to show more meaningful content to hit their ad revenue.
As a fan of Stephano's play, I have to admit his arrogance and egocentrism is staggering. This type of unprofessionalism is not worthy of invitational tournaments.
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On January 30 2012 14:31 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 14:27 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 14:21 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:17 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 14:13 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:00 TangyOrange wrote:
Either Stephano knew that he would be penalised and left knowing so, which would make his decision perfectly reasonable and professional. Or he didn't know he would be penalised and ONOG is simply lashing out at him, being unprofessional and kind of failing their role as the tournament organisers to reward their participants for winning games.
No, I'm not trying to defend Stephano or attack ONOG, I'm just saying it as it is. Yes, I'm disappointed that I didn't get to see a Kas-Stephano finals but that doesn't mean that I should get upset and start lashing out at him.
For all those saying that Stephano is being "unprofessional", you might as well be saying "Mommy! Stephano broke my feelings!" because it is either a case where everybody was being professional, or ONOG wasn't.
No, I'm not saying that you should like what Stephano did, just accept it and if you really think that he shouldn't have done so then you don't have to support him. Simple as that. Don't start crying and whining (and, to be honest, bitching) over it. You make no sense. Leaving any tournament is unprofessional, whether you know you'll be penalized or not. That's because you've made a commitment to the organizers and fans. It doesn't matter what his excuse is, he should not make the decision not to play the game. That's what professionalism is about, doing the right thing yourself. No, it's not unprofessional. It's bad entertainment. But the concept of forfeiture is integral to any fair competition. Unless you see a player's profession purely in entertaining you. Tell that to the volunteers busting their asses to make this tournament happen. "Don't worry guys, Stephano had a bad entertainment day. Your work and effort is for naught, but try again next time, perhaps you'll get lucky." You really, really have to separate formal and informal misbehavior. I know I have already used that sentence and get tired of having to repeat it. It's disappointing, yes. It is disrespecting towards the organizer, fans and parts of the community. That is out of question. But regarding the competitive spirit he literally did nothing wrong. He discontinued to compete once he felt not being able to any more. He notified the organizer. The concept professional has about 4 aspects to it. a) Doing something as a job. b) Being qualified. c) Doing it constantly. d) Being worthy of being considered a professional because your behaviour is appropriate. You only look at the first 3 aspects, if those, and completely forget the fourth. Ask a lawyer, or doctor, or university professor what "professional" means and I bet you anything that they'll spend most of their time explaining the fourth as in the end, the whole system relies on that, and the other follow. If people keep pulling Naniwa's on tournaments, we'll soon find tournaments disappear or become Kespa-like and the fun we're having now disappear.
The difference is the direct entanglement of entertainment and competition in eSports. As public expectations are subject to change, such a delicate industry would be well-advised to clear this matter once and for all. The reason is that forfeiture is not any insignificant or rare matter.
To be able to fulfill point 4, it is imperative to find a coherent ruling. The problem I have is less the forfeiture itself, but that there are no existing rules about it at all. Today Stephano was effectively fined 600$ for a forfeit in the finals of a tournament. Next time another player could face another punishment over a different sum at the round of 8. Or you forfeit playing for place 7/8 at MLG and loose all your points for this particular run. And at Homestory cup suddenly it might not have any consequences at all.
Edit: upon revisiting your additional clarification, it still remains blurry. While romantic, such a notion of professional honor is ultimately only being measured against everybody's personal values.
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On January 30 2012 14:41 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 14:31 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:27 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 14:21 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:17 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 14:13 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:00 TangyOrange wrote:
Either Stephano knew that he would be penalised and left knowing so, which would make his decision perfectly reasonable and professional. Or he didn't know he would be penalised and ONOG is simply lashing out at him, being unprofessional and kind of failing their role as the tournament organisers to reward their participants for winning games.
No, I'm not trying to defend Stephano or attack ONOG, I'm just saying it as it is. Yes, I'm disappointed that I didn't get to see a Kas-Stephano finals but that doesn't mean that I should get upset and start lashing out at him.
For all those saying that Stephano is being "unprofessional", you might as well be saying "Mommy! Stephano broke my feelings!" because it is either a case where everybody was being professional, or ONOG wasn't.
No, I'm not saying that you should like what Stephano did, just accept it and if you really think that he shouldn't have done so then you don't have to support him. Simple as that. Don't start crying and whining (and, to be honest, bitching) over it. You make no sense. Leaving any tournament is unprofessional, whether you know you'll be penalized or not. That's because you've made a commitment to the organizers and fans. It doesn't matter what his excuse is, he should not make the decision not to play the game. That's what professionalism is about, doing the right thing yourself. No, it's not unprofessional. It's bad entertainment. But the concept of forfeiture is integral to any fair competition. Unless you see a player's profession purely in entertaining you. Tell that to the volunteers busting their asses to make this tournament happen. "Don't worry guys, Stephano had a bad entertainment day. Your work and effort is for naught, but try again next time, perhaps you'll get lucky." You really, really have to separate formal and informal misbehavior. I know I have already used that sentence and get tired of having to repeat it. It's disappointing, yes. It is disrespecting towards the organizer, fans and parts of the community. That is out of question. But regarding the competitive spirit he literally did nothing wrong. He discontinued to compete once he felt not being able to any more. He notified the organizer. The concept professional has about 4 aspects to it. a) Doing something as a job. b) Being qualified. c) Doing it constantly. d) Being worthy of being considered a professional because your behaviour is appropriate. You only look at the first 3 aspects, if those, and completely forget the fourth. Ask a lawyer, or doctor, or university professor what "professional" means and I bet you anything that they'll spend most of their time explaining the fourth as in the end, the whole system relies on that, and the other follow. If people keep pulling Naniwa's on tournaments, we'll soon find tournaments disappear or become Kespa-like and the fun we're having now disappear. + Show Spoiler +
The difference is the direct entanglement of entertainment and competition in eSports. As public expectations are subject to change, such a delicate industry would be well-advised to clear this matter once and for all. The reason is that forfeiture is not any insignificant or rare matter.
To be able to fulfill point 4, it is imperative to find a coherent ruling. The problem I have is less the forfeiture itself, but that there are no existing rules about it at all. Today Stephano was effectively fined 600$ for a forfeit in the finals of a tournament. Next time another player could face another punishment over a different sum at the round of 8. Or you forfeit playing for place 7/8 at MLG and loose all your points for this particular run. And at Homestory cup suddenly it might not have any consequences at all.
Talking about demotion to 4th is distracting. Let's concentrate on the topic at hand. Stephano should have never left. Whatever happened after that bears to consequence on the simple fact that it's unprofessional of him to leave a tournament, especially at this stage. And you speak of forfeiting games as if it were somehow acceptable in sport, but it surely is not. Only major injuries lead to forfeits in real sports with real professionals. The fact that it happens in SC2 is a very bad sign and it should be uniformly denounced by everyone for the good of the community.
Edit: No, not personal values. The bar, ethics councils, regulatory bodies, etc. have all grown out of a set of common criteria that specify what is deemed acceptable. With esports, the growth of these criteria and their regulatio is slow and apparently not painless. But the criteria should be no different from any sport. If you sign up to play, you play. If you pull a Tevez, expect harsh punishments. And I still don't understand how anyone could find Stephano's actions acceptable as a maxim.
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On January 30 2012 14:47 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 14:41 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 14:31 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:27 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 14:21 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:17 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 14:13 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:00 TangyOrange wrote:
Either Stephano knew that he would be penalised and left knowing so, which would make his decision perfectly reasonable and professional. Or he didn't know he would be penalised and ONOG is simply lashing out at him, being unprofessional and kind of failing their role as the tournament organisers to reward their participants for winning games.
No, I'm not trying to defend Stephano or attack ONOG, I'm just saying it as it is. Yes, I'm disappointed that I didn't get to see a Kas-Stephano finals but that doesn't mean that I should get upset and start lashing out at him.
For all those saying that Stephano is being "unprofessional", you might as well be saying "Mommy! Stephano broke my feelings!" because it is either a case where everybody was being professional, or ONOG wasn't.
No, I'm not saying that you should like what Stephano did, just accept it and if you really think that he shouldn't have done so then you don't have to support him. Simple as that. Don't start crying and whining (and, to be honest, bitching) over it. You make no sense. Leaving any tournament is unprofessional, whether you know you'll be penalized or not. That's because you've made a commitment to the organizers and fans. It doesn't matter what his excuse is, he should not make the decision not to play the game. That's what professionalism is about, doing the right thing yourself. No, it's not unprofessional. It's bad entertainment. But the concept of forfeiture is integral to any fair competition. Unless you see a player's profession purely in entertaining you. Tell that to the volunteers busting their asses to make this tournament happen. "Don't worry guys, Stephano had a bad entertainment day. Your work and effort is for naught, but try again next time, perhaps you'll get lucky." You really, really have to separate formal and informal misbehavior. I know I have already used that sentence and get tired of having to repeat it. It's disappointing, yes. It is disrespecting towards the organizer, fans and parts of the community. That is out of question. But regarding the competitive spirit he literally did nothing wrong. He discontinued to compete once he felt not being able to any more. He notified the organizer. The concept professional has about 4 aspects to it. a) Doing something as a job. b) Being qualified. c) Doing it constantly. d) Being worthy of being considered a professional because your behaviour is appropriate. You only look at the first 3 aspects, if those, and completely forget the fourth. Ask a lawyer, or doctor, or university professor what "professional" means and I bet you anything that they'll spend most of their time explaining the fourth as in the end, the whole system relies on that, and the other follow. If people keep pulling Naniwa's on tournaments, we'll soon find tournaments disappear or become Kespa-like and the fun we're having now disappear. + Show Spoiler +
The difference is the direct entanglement of entertainment and competition in eSports. As public expectations are subject to change, such a delicate industry would be well-advised to clear this matter once and for all. The reason is that forfeiture is not any insignificant or rare matter.
To be able to fulfill point 4, it is imperative to find a coherent ruling. The problem I have is less the forfeiture itself, but that there are no existing rules about it at all. Today Stephano was effectively fined 600$ for a forfeit in the finals of a tournament. Next time another player could face another punishment over a different sum at the round of 8. Or you forfeit playing for place 7/8 at MLG and loose all your points for this particular run. And at Homestory cup suddenly it might not have any consequences at all.
Talking about demotion to 4th is distracting. Let's concentrate on the topic at hand. Stephano should have never left. Whatever happened after that bears to consequence on the simple fact that it's unprofessional of him to leave a tournament, especially at this stage. And you speak of forfeiting games as if it were somehow acceptable in sport, but it surely is not. Only major injuries lead to forfeits in real sports with real professionals. The fact that it happens in SC2 is a very bad sign and it should be uniformly denounced by everyone for the good of the community.
And that is where the major rift between us lies. I may accept an arbitrary -but universal- rule depending on the actual formulation of applicable cases and severity of punishment. You on the other hand defy the concept of forfeiture by principle based on your personal view on professionalism- of which point 4 is heavily based on subjective morality.
Edit: Don't get me wrong, I do condemn his behavior. But it's also wrong to treat players as modern gladiators, whose only purpose is to provide cheap entertainment. And act as guinea-pigs in the course of actually grow the body of customary law. Your stance is particular extreme in regards to player protection, since it would place them at whim to organizer's decisions. "But we found it disrespectful" would allow tournaments any ruling they wish to.
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So you guys think stephano should have pulled a naniwa and 6pooled all the games of the finals ?
You gotta respect the dude for putting his health before the money, thats the right choice.
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On January 30 2012 14:53 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 14:47 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:41 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 14:31 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:27 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 14:21 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:17 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 14:13 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:00 TangyOrange wrote:
Either Stephano knew that he would be penalised and left knowing so, which would make his decision perfectly reasonable and professional. Or he didn't know he would be penalised and ONOG is simply lashing out at him, being unprofessional and kind of failing their role as the tournament organisers to reward their participants for winning games.
No, I'm not trying to defend Stephano or attack ONOG, I'm just saying it as it is. Yes, I'm disappointed that I didn't get to see a Kas-Stephano finals but that doesn't mean that I should get upset and start lashing out at him.
For all those saying that Stephano is being "unprofessional", you might as well be saying "Mommy! Stephano broke my feelings!" because it is either a case where everybody was being professional, or ONOG wasn't.
No, I'm not saying that you should like what Stephano did, just accept it and if you really think that he shouldn't have done so then you don't have to support him. Simple as that. Don't start crying and whining (and, to be honest, bitching) over it. You make no sense. Leaving any tournament is unprofessional, whether you know you'll be penalized or not. That's because you've made a commitment to the organizers and fans. It doesn't matter what his excuse is, he should not make the decision not to play the game. That's what professionalism is about, doing the right thing yourself. No, it's not unprofessional. It's bad entertainment. But the concept of forfeiture is integral to any fair competition. Unless you see a player's profession purely in entertaining you. Tell that to the volunteers busting their asses to make this tournament happen. "Don't worry guys, Stephano had a bad entertainment day. Your work and effort is for naught, but try again next time, perhaps you'll get lucky." You really, really have to separate formal and informal misbehavior. I know I have already used that sentence and get tired of having to repeat it. It's disappointing, yes. It is disrespecting towards the organizer, fans and parts of the community. That is out of question. But regarding the competitive spirit he literally did nothing wrong. He discontinued to compete once he felt not being able to any more. He notified the organizer. The concept professional has about 4 aspects to it. a) Doing something as a job. b) Being qualified. c) Doing it constantly. d) Being worthy of being considered a professional because your behaviour is appropriate. You only look at the first 3 aspects, if those, and completely forget the fourth. Ask a lawyer, or doctor, or university professor what "professional" means and I bet you anything that they'll spend most of their time explaining the fourth as in the end, the whole system relies on that, and the other follow. If people keep pulling Naniwa's on tournaments, we'll soon find tournaments disappear or become Kespa-like and the fun we're having now disappear. + Show Spoiler +
The difference is the direct entanglement of entertainment and competition in eSports. As public expectations are subject to change, such a delicate industry would be well-advised to clear this matter once and for all. The reason is that forfeiture is not any insignificant or rare matter.
To be able to fulfill point 4, it is imperative to find a coherent ruling. The problem I have is less the forfeiture itself, but that there are no existing rules about it at all. Today Stephano was effectively fined 600$ for a forfeit in the finals of a tournament. Next time another player could face another punishment over a different sum at the round of 8. Or you forfeit playing for place 7/8 at MLG and loose all your points for this particular run. And at Homestory cup suddenly it might not have any consequences at all.
Talking about demotion to 4th is distracting. Let's concentrate on the topic at hand. Stephano should have never left. Whatever happened after that bears to consequence on the simple fact that it's unprofessional of him to leave a tournament, especially at this stage. And you speak of forfeiting games as if it were somehow acceptable in sport, but it surely is not. Only major injuries lead to forfeits in real sports with real professionals. The fact that it happens in SC2 is a very bad sign and it should be uniformly denounced by everyone for the good of the community. And that is where the major rift between us lies. I may accept an arbitrary -but universal- rule depending on the actual formulation of applicable cases and severity of punishment. You on the other hand defy the concept of forfeiture by principle based on your personal view on professionalism- of which point 4 is heavily based on subjective morality.
If morality is subjective, I deem you worthy of being painted pink. And you know I'm right, because whatever my personal values say, is ok, right? So when I find you, and I paint you pink, you'll have to admit that I'm right to do so.
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On January 30 2012 14:54 Rowa wrote:
So you guys think stephano should have pulled a naniwa and 6pooled all the games of the finals ?
You gotta respect the dude for putting his health before the money, thats the right choice.
Same answer as with Naniwa, he should have played his heart out. And guaranteed that he's able to do so.
No-one seems to care about the money, so it's not a choice between health and money. He went to sleep regardless of promises to organizers and fans. That's where the problem lies.
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On January 30 2012 14:56 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 14:53 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 14:47 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:41 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 14:31 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:27 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 14:21 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:17 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 14:13 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 30 2012 14:00 TangyOrange wrote:
Either Stephano knew that he would be penalised and left knowing so, which would make his decision perfectly reasonable and professional. Or he didn't know he would be penalised and ONOG is simply lashing out at him, being unprofessional and kind of failing their role as the tournament organisers to reward their participants for winning games.
No, I'm not trying to defend Stephano or attack ONOG, I'm just saying it as it is. Yes, I'm disappointed that I didn't get to see a Kas-Stephano finals but that doesn't mean that I should get upset and start lashing out at him.
For all those saying that Stephano is being "unprofessional", you might as well be saying "Mommy! Stephano broke my feelings!" because it is either a case where everybody was being professional, or ONOG wasn't.
No, I'm not saying that you should like what Stephano did, just accept it and if you really think that he shouldn't have done so then you don't have to support him. Simple as that. Don't start crying and whining (and, to be honest, bitching) over it. You make no sense. Leaving any tournament is unprofessional, whether you know you'll be penalized or not. That's because you've made a commitment to the organizers and fans. It doesn't matter what his excuse is, he should not make the decision not to play the game. That's what professionalism is about, doing the right thing yourself. No, it's not unprofessional. It's bad entertainment. But the concept of forfeiture is integral to any fair competition. Unless you see a player's profession purely in entertaining you. Tell that to the volunteers busting their asses to make this tournament happen. "Don't worry guys, Stephano had a bad entertainment day. Your work and effort is for naught, but try again next time, perhaps you'll get lucky." You really, really have to separate formal and informal misbehavior. I know I have already used that sentence and get tired of having to repeat it. It's disappointing, yes. It is disrespecting towards the organizer, fans and parts of the community. That is out of question. But regarding the competitive spirit he literally did nothing wrong. He discontinued to compete once he felt not being able to any more. He notified the organizer. The concept professional has about 4 aspects to it. a) Doing something as a job. b) Being qualified. c) Doing it constantly. d) Being worthy of being considered a professional because your behaviour is appropriate. You only look at the first 3 aspects, if those, and completely forget the fourth. Ask a lawyer, or doctor, or university professor what "professional" means and I bet you anything that they'll spend most of their time explaining the fourth as in the end, the whole system relies on that, and the other follow. If people keep pulling Naniwa's on tournaments, we'll soon find tournaments disappear or become Kespa-like and the fun we're having now disappear. + Show Spoiler +
The difference is the direct entanglement of entertainment and competition in eSports. As public expectations are subject to change, such a delicate industry would be well-advised to clear this matter once and for all. The reason is that forfeiture is not any insignificant or rare matter.
To be able to fulfill point 4, it is imperative to find a coherent ruling. The problem I have is less the forfeiture itself, but that there are no existing rules about it at all. Today Stephano was effectively fined 600$ for a forfeit in the finals of a tournament. Next time another player could face another punishment over a different sum at the round of 8. Or you forfeit playing for place 7/8 at MLG and loose all your points for this particular run. And at Homestory cup suddenly it might not have any consequences at all.
Talking about demotion to 4th is distracting. Let's concentrate on the topic at hand. Stephano should have never left. Whatever happened after that bears to consequence on the simple fact that it's unprofessional of him to leave a tournament, especially at this stage. And you speak of forfeiting games as if it were somehow acceptable in sport, but it surely is not. Only major injuries lead to forfeits in real sports with real professionals. The fact that it happens in SC2 is a very bad sign and it should be uniformly denounced by everyone for the good of the community. And that is where the major rift between us lies. I may accept an arbitrary -but universal- rule depending on the actual formulation of applicable cases and severity of punishment. You on the other hand defy the concept of forfeiture by principle based on your personal view on professionalism- of which point 4 is heavily based on subjective morality. If morality is subjective, I deem you worthy of being painted pink. And you know I'm right, because whatever my personal values say, is ok, right? So when I find you, and I paint you pink, you'll have to admit that I'm right to do so.
Or neither of us is right
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EPT
