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On January 30 2012 13:18 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 13:07 cArn- wrote:On January 30 2012 12:59 Canucklehead wrote:
I think stephano got off lucky here. The correct decision should be to DQ him entirely from the tournament and give him no ranking and therefore no prize money in such a situation. What he did was unforgivable and a slap in the face at the tourney that invited him. Because asking him to play his finals series at 4am is reasonnable right ? Have a better schedule for the tournament and that would never happen. When players are too tired to play, they're "unforgivable", but it's fine for an organization to save time and money by having such terrible schedule... Well, they did ask Kas to play his finals series at 5am, and had the illusion/catz series gone on longer, it very easily could have been even later.
People are different. Some can stay up for days without sleep others cant..
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On January 30 2012 13:12 mvtaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 13:08 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 30 2012 13:05 mvtaylor wrote:On January 30 2012 13:03 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 30 2012 13:00 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 12:34 habbey wrote:On January 30 2012 12:29 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 12:26 habbey wrote:On January 30 2012 12:24 HappyChris wrote:
The funny thing is LiquidTyler also forfeits but he didnt say any reason whatsoever but nop the TL posters got np at all with it. However when Stephano does it hole TL goes abeshit..
I seen this for so long time now it got nothing todo with what stephano did. It got everything todo that he beats players so horrible that there fans gets angry and he make so much money and people just cant accept it.
jealousy thats the word..
you see no difference between forfeiting in the finals after playing the tourney vs forfeiting before the tourney starts? If speaking of professionalism yourself, no there should be no difference. You can argue whether the ability to forfeit should be a principal player's right or they'd be forced to play for your pleasure with a gun held onto their head. Yes, with respect to professionalism there is a difference... If in your business you blow off a minor meeting with a boss its different than blowing off the quarterly meeting with the board. Except Stephano was under no obligation to play. He surely dissatisfied organizer and fan expectations but surely didn't misconducted in any way regarding standard tournament regulations. Do you really need it in writing? Don't go all legal over this. You want to fine a player for getting to the final of a tournament then going to sleep? I wish people in the thread realised that when told he could play with Kas now and have the games cast from replays he could have agreed to that, six pooled and failed four times, submitted the replays in ten minutes, gone to bed and come second in the final to Kas, taken an extra $600 and given all of you an awful final. Yes. A player who gets to the final and doesn't want to play should be fined..... why doesn't that make any sense? You didn't even defend why you disagree. You want some reasons as to why he shouldn't have been fined? As there were no rules in place from ONOG, they made this up on the spot, it's not like they signed a contract with Stephano and instead relinquished on their pre-announced prize pool. The fact they they expected Stephano to originally stay up and finish playing at 5AM his time even though he played his first game in a tournament 14 hours ago in the same day and was awake before then. As Stephano could have done far worse than just logged off, he could have also provided a bo7 final lasting about ten minutes that would under the rules ONOG were making up on the spot "legit". As Stephano met all the conditions needed to reach the final and beat all players in front of him and had this award taken away. Are those reasons good enough for you?
Oh, you mean that one time that GomTV made up that rule and naniwa got fucked? same situation, same consequences
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On January 30 2012 13:17 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 13:03 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 30 2012 13:00 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 12:34 habbey wrote:On January 30 2012 12:29 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 12:26 habbey wrote:On January 30 2012 12:24 HappyChris wrote:
The funny thing is LiquidTyler also forfeits but he didnt say any reason whatsoever but nop the TL posters got np at all with it. However when Stephano does it hole TL goes abeshit..
I seen this for so long time now it got nothing todo with what stephano did. It got everything todo that he beats players so horrible that there fans gets angry and he make so much money and people just cant accept it.
jealousy thats the word..
you see no difference between forfeiting in the finals after playing the tourney vs forfeiting before the tourney starts? If speaking of professionalism yourself, no there should be no difference. You can argue whether the ability to forfeit should be a principal player's right or they'd be forced to play for your pleasure with a gun held onto their head. Yes, with respect to professionalism there is a difference... If in your business you blow off a minor meeting with a boss its different than blowing off the quarterly meeting with the board. Except Stephano was under no obligation to play. He surely dissatisfied organizer and fan expectations but surely didn't misconducted in any way regarding standard tournament regulations. Do you really need it in writing? Don't go all legal over this. I have to, since people are mixing up formal and informal misbehavior. Of course I was dissappointed of not having a Stephano vs Kas finals. Of course it has damaged the event. Of course it adds into the image of Stephano being a diva. But at the end of the day it's about a player waiving a game for whatever reason. But tournament rules are a way more serious matter. How should players know when it's appropriate to forfeit or not? Up to which stage of a tournament? Finals, Semi's, round of 8,16,32,64,128? How should it be decided to burn a player or not? Will you act as judge for all running events? Or should it be clarified before a player agrees to the terms of the tournament? Is forfeiting even a fundamental right they should have? Which event format should allow forfeiting and which shouldn't?
That's such a moot point.. In any sport, if any player doesn't wanna play he simply doesn't play.. what are the organizers gonna do about it? send him to jail? Still, any player pulling that kind of shit has to pay a price for it.. I hope Stephano also pays a tangible price for his unprofessional behavior. See my above post
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On January 30 2012 13:20 nicotn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 13:04 shaberu wrote:On January 30 2012 12:56 habbey wrote:On January 30 2012 12:46 shaberu wrote:
Obviously both sides are lacking in professionalism. Sure, Stephano could have played; he certainly couldn't have cheesed out of the series, because he'd then face the same reprisal Naniwa faced. Either that, or he could forfeit. It's really not his fault that the tournament hosts hadn't provided in advance for this sort of situation. Either way, he forfeits, he takes the community damage and damage to his reputation in terms of future events inviting him. Even if Stephano doesn't care about the fans, he still placed 2nd in the tournament.
Unfortunately, ONOG showed a serious lack in judgment (on top of a lack of professionalism). Stephano legitimately placed 2nd in their tournament, yet they refused to payout to Stephano? Unless they have a signed contract claiming that Stephano will play all games out in full, what are they even thinking? Even for a snap judgment, it makes absolutely no sense. You could ask the other players if they wanted to play out some matches for the viewers, etc., but how could you be as completely unprofessional as to take a player's rightfully earned winnings, especially after the player had logged off and you had (which is your fault for lack of foresight, as if Stephano wouldn't have given you his phone number had you asked) no way of contacting him?
Disappointing on both sides, but for people running the tournaments, this is absolutely shady and works into the same sort of absurdity as not paying out to winners. Absolutely disgusting. It wouldn't even logically make sense to spite him by forcing him into 4th place; if your logic is that the winner of 3rd/4th plays for 2nd, then shouldn't Stephano logically get at least 3rd place, considering he beat at least one of the 3rd/4th place players? If he forfeited and you had some sort of terms to offer him no money for whatever reason, fine. But what sort of sense does your decision make?
I don't understand how you couldn't possibly have had some sort of alternative -- even the largest tournaments have had severe outages. What if Stephano or Kas' internet had gone out for the remainder of the night? No alternatives planned? No contact information for the players to speak to them through a more reliable medium? Unprofessional. Before you start complaining about the professionalism of the players, we also need to uphold the same standards on the "organizations" involved as well.
Also, this also brings into question the professionalism of casters. Some of them are terrible and should be upheld to the same standard we expect of others in the community, eg: Tumba. I agree with many of the things you have said. I personally think all tournaments should have a clause that says if you forfeit you get DQ'ed. In this particular case it was a really tough decision for the tournament, put yourself in their shoes. Their whole tournament just got destroyed(not by an act of luck like power outage, but by a player you're paying) with I'm sure future tournaments depending on the success of this one (our last tournament got X viewers, etc). As far as the casters go, yes 100% casters are far too unprofessional  TLDR: its a sad situation It's the tournament organizer's fault for not having something planned in case of a disruption. Considering how often tournaments (even the big ones) have experienced random problems, it just makes sense. You can't really complain about money-related anger/how hard you worked to organize this/etc. if you had no acceptable backup plan in case something were to have gone wrong. Unless Stephano agreed to have his prize forfeit upon forfeiting, or if it was clearly stated in some sort of rule, this was highly unprofessional of ONOG and an absolutely disgusting way of treating players. I would be very wary of dealing with an organization like this in the future, just as organizations should be wary of dealing with Stephano (or any number of unprofessional SC2 players). Also, ONOG isn't a kid who made a bad decision after playing for a period of time, and, having already secured a second place finished, decided to bow out rather than play substandard games (Stephano has been criticized for this before, remember). Everyone knows Stephano is only in things for the money, etc. and his reputation precedes him. ONOG should have taken this into account as well. ONOG as an organization made a terrible decision; last minute or not, unless they had some sort of specified contractual clause, they really should have no reason for stripping valid winnings from Stephano, unless, of course, he was being paid to attend and play all of his games (which I'm sure he wasn't). In a way, they did him a favor, they could just as easy disqualified him, and he would get nothing, atleast he gets 150$ now. hit them where it hurts.
Um, they didn't even talk to him about the punishment they decided to dole out upon him as they didn't have any of his offline contact information. He rightfully placed second, gave them hours of entertainment to their profit, and drew a crowd of people who would come to watch Stephano play the games he ended up playing.
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On January 30 2012 13:04 shaberu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 12:56 habbey wrote:On January 30 2012 12:46 shaberu wrote:
Obviously both sides are lacking in professionalism. Sure, Stephano could have played; he certainly couldn't have cheesed out of the series, because he'd then face the same reprisal Naniwa faced. Either that, or he could forfeit. It's really not his fault that the tournament hosts hadn't provided in advance for this sort of situation. Either way, he forfeits, he takes the community damage and damage to his reputation in terms of future events inviting him. Even if Stephano doesn't care about the fans, he still placed 2nd in the tournament.
Unfortunately, ONOG showed a serious lack in judgment (on top of a lack of professionalism). Stephano legitimately placed 2nd in their tournament, yet they refused to payout to Stephano? Unless they have a signed contract claiming that Stephano will play all games out in full, what are they even thinking? Even for a snap judgment, it makes absolutely no sense. You could ask the other players if they wanted to play out some matches for the viewers, etc., but how could you be as completely unprofessional as to take a player's rightfully earned winnings, especially after the player had logged off and you had (which is your fault for lack of foresight, as if Stephano wouldn't have given you his phone number had you asked) no way of contacting him?
Disappointing on both sides, but for people running the tournaments, this is absolutely shady and works into the same sort of absurdity as not paying out to winners. Absolutely disgusting. It wouldn't even logically make sense to spite him by forcing him into 4th place; if your logic is that the winner of 3rd/4th plays for 2nd, then shouldn't Stephano logically get at least 3rd place, considering he beat at least one of the 3rd/4th place players? If he forfeited and you had some sort of terms to offer him no money for whatever reason, fine. But what sort of sense does your decision make?
I don't understand how you couldn't possibly have had some sort of alternative -- even the largest tournaments have had severe outages. What if Stephano or Kas' internet had gone out for the remainder of the night? No alternatives planned? No contact information for the players to speak to them through a more reliable medium? Unprofessional. Before you start complaining about the professionalism of the players, we also need to uphold the same standards on the "organizations" involved as well.
Also, this also brings into question the professionalism of casters. Some of them are terrible and should be upheld to the same standard we expect of others in the community, eg: Tumba. I agree with many of the things you have said. I personally think all tournaments should have a clause that says if you forfeit you get DQ'ed. In this particular case it was a really tough decision for the tournament, put yourself in their shoes. Their whole tournament just got destroyed(not by an act of luck like power outage, but by a player you're paying) with I'm sure future tournaments depending on the success of this one (our last tournament got X viewers, etc). As far as the casters go, yes 100% casters are far too unprofessional TLDR: its a sad situation It's the tournament organizer's fault for not having something planned in case of a disruption. Considering how often tournaments (even the big ones) have experienced random problems, it just makes sense. You can't really complain about money-related anger/how hard you worked to organize this/etc. if you had no acceptable backup plan in case something were to have gone wrong. Unless Stephano agreed to have his prize forfeit upon forfeiting, or if it was clearly stated in some sort of rule, this was highly unprofessional of ONOG and an absolutely disgusting way of treating players. I would be very wary of dealing with an organization like this in the future, just as organizations should be wary of dealing with Stephano (or any number of unprofessional SC2 players). Also, ONOG isn't a kid who made a bad decision after playing for a period of time, and, having already secured a second place finished, decided to bow out rather than play substandard games (Stephano has been criticized for this before, remember). Everyone knows Stephano is only in things for the money, etc. and his reputation precedes him. ONOG should have taken this into account as well. ONOG as an organization made a terrible decision; last minute or not, unless they had some sort of specified contractual clause, they really should have no reason for stripping valid winnings from Stephano, unless, of course, he was being paid to attend and play all of his games (which I'm sure he wasn't).
this is the only post of the last pages i agree with.
If a player decides to forfeit an upcoming match, he still "keeps" his victories from previous rounds.
Watch Tennis: during a Grand Slam, theres often players forfeiting their next matches. This doesnt mean they lose all their previous wins/ranking/prize money. Ofc every player normally rly WANTS to play, therefore they only forfeit in really hard emergencies. But this rules goes with ANY excuse. This is in Tennis, probably even other sports, and also should be the rule for esports. If the excuse is "im tired", he loses respect from his fans and eventually the organizers can consider not inviting this player to next tourneys. But tajking rankings/wins/prozemoney from previous rounds ist just pathetic, and should never happen.
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As some people have posted above, what Stephano did was pretty unprofessional and certainly disappointing for fans and tournament staff alike.
That being said, I think the tournament handled this very poorly. They should have given Stephano 2nd, given Kas first, played the 3rd/4th match, and then released a statement blasting Stephano for what he did.
QUESTION!
Can someone please clarify what Tumba said that has everyone talking about how unprofessional he is? I remember before he got kind of popular and was a poster on WellPlayed, he often came off as rather immature and unprofessional.
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On January 30 2012 13:17 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 13:03 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 30 2012 13:00 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 12:34 habbey wrote:On January 30 2012 12:29 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 12:26 habbey wrote:On January 30 2012 12:24 HappyChris wrote:
The funny thing is LiquidTyler also forfeits but he didnt say any reason whatsoever but nop the TL posters got np at all with it. However when Stephano does it hole TL goes abeshit..
I seen this for so long time now it got nothing todo with what stephano did. It got everything todo that he beats players so horrible that there fans gets angry and he make so much money and people just cant accept it.
jealousy thats the word..
you see no difference between forfeiting in the finals after playing the tourney vs forfeiting before the tourney starts? If speaking of professionalism yourself, no there should be no difference. You can argue whether the ability to forfeit should be a principal player's right or they'd be forced to play for your pleasure with a gun held onto their head. Yes, with respect to professionalism there is a difference... If in your business you blow off a minor meeting with a boss its different than blowing off the quarterly meeting with the board. Except Stephano was under no obligation to play. He surely dissatisfied organizer and fan expectations but surely didn't misconducted in any way regarding standard tournament regulations. Do you really need it in writing? Don't go all legal over this. I have to, since people are mixing up formal and informal misbehavior. Of course I was dissappointed of not having a Stephano vs Kas finals. Of course it has damaged the event. Of course it adds into the image of Stephano being a diva. But at the end of the day it's about a player waiving a game for whatever reason. But tournament rules are a way more serious matter. How should players know when it's appropriate to forfeit or not? Up to which stage of a tournament? Finals, Semi's, round of 8,16,32,64,128? How should it be decided to burn a player or not? Will you act as judge for all running events? Or should it be clarified before a player agrees to the terms of the tournament? Is forfeiting even a fundamental right they should have? Which event format should allow forfeiting and which shouldn't?
I couldn't agree more. These kind of things should be spelt out at the start.
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On January 30 2012 13:07 cArn- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 12:59 Canucklehead wrote:
I think stephano got off lucky here. The correct decision should be to DQ him entirely from the tournament and give him no ranking and therefore no prize money in such a situation. What he did was unforgivable and a slap in the face at the tourney that invited him. Because asking him to play his finals series at 4am is reasonnable right ? Have a better schedule for the tournament and that would never happen. When players are too tired to play, they're "unforgivable", but it's fine for an organization to save time and money by having such terrible schedule...
They offered him to play @ 2am while CatZ vs illusion was going on, but he declined.
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On January 30 2012 13:26 StrykerSC2 wrote:
As some people have posted above, what Stephano did was pretty unprofessional and certainly disappointing for fans and tournament staff alike.
That being said, I think the tournament handled this very poorly. They should have given Stephano 2nd, given Kas first, played the 3rd/4th match, and then released a statement blasting Stephano for what he did.
QUESTION!
Can someone please clarify what Tumba said that has everyone talking about how unprofessional he is? I remember before he got kind of popular and was a poster on WellPlayed, he often came off as rather immature and unprofessional.
he said: "Stephano surrendered like the french do."
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On January 30 2012 13:22 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 13:17 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 13:03 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 30 2012 13:00 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 12:34 habbey wrote:On January 30 2012 12:29 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 12:26 habbey wrote:On January 30 2012 12:24 HappyChris wrote:
The funny thing is LiquidTyler also forfeits but he didnt say any reason whatsoever but nop the TL posters got np at all with it. However when Stephano does it hole TL goes abeshit..
I seen this for so long time now it got nothing todo with what stephano did. It got everything todo that he beats players so horrible that there fans gets angry and he make so much money and people just cant accept it.
jealousy thats the word..
you see no difference between forfeiting in the finals after playing the tourney vs forfeiting before the tourney starts? If speaking of professionalism yourself, no there should be no difference. You can argue whether the ability to forfeit should be a principal player's right or they'd be forced to play for your pleasure with a gun held onto their head. Yes, with respect to professionalism there is a difference... If in your business you blow off a minor meeting with a boss its different than blowing off the quarterly meeting with the board. Except Stephano was under no obligation to play. He surely dissatisfied organizer and fan expectations but surely didn't misconducted in any way regarding standard tournament regulations. Do you really need it in writing? Don't go all legal over this. I have to, since people are mixing up formal and informal misbehavior. Of course I was dissappointed of not having a Stephano vs Kas finals. Of course it has damaged the event. Of course it adds into the image of Stephano being a diva. But at the end of the day it's about a player waiving a game for whatever reason. But tournament rules are a way more serious matter. How should players know when it's appropriate to forfeit or not? Up to which stage of a tournament? Finals, Semi's, round of 8,16,32,64,128? How should it be decided to burn a player or not? Will you act as judge for all running events? Or should it be clarified before a player agrees to the terms of the tournament? Is forfeiting even a fundamental right they should have? Which event format should allow forfeiting and which shouldn't? That's such a moot point.. In any sport, if any player doesn't wanna play he simply doesn't play.. what are the organizers gonna do about it? send him to jail? Still, any player pulling that kind of shit has to pay a price for it.. I hope Stephano also pays a tangible price for his unprofessional behavior. See my above post
It is indeed a moot point with you, since
"Still, any player pulling that kind of shit has to pay a price for it"
You already have made up your mind that forfeiting should not be tolerated, and should be punishable through exception clauses. The only thing I have brought up that there might not be a definite answer to it.
My personal view includes granting players the fundamental right of forfeit. Your's would be the refusal of such a right.
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On January 30 2012 13:29 nicotn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 13:26 StrykerSC2 wrote:
As some people have posted above, what Stephano did was pretty unprofessional and certainly disappointing for fans and tournament staff alike.
That being said, I think the tournament handled this very poorly. They should have given Stephano 2nd, given Kas first, played the 3rd/4th match, and then released a statement blasting Stephano for what he did.
QUESTION!
Can someone please clarify what Tumba said that has everyone talking about how unprofessional he is? I remember before he got kind of popular and was a poster on WellPlayed, he often came off as rather immature and unprofessional. he said: "Stephano surrendered like the french do."
Well if this happend, i dont understand why we even discuss the forfeiting matter here. This torunament is then obviously run by pretty dumb ppl. Just stop watching tourneys like that in the future. Go next.
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I'm honestly surprised people are siding with Stephano at all on this one. ONOG made the correct decision in my opinion, Stephano fucked the finals up for them. He shouldn't have played if he didn't expect to be able to do the finals, it wasn't like it was a secret format or anything. He knew that the finals would be late for him, and he'd likely be tired when they were played. You don't blame the organizers for the timeslot, you blame the player who had participated in a tournament when he knew it didn't fit his schedule very well. He fucked up, he deserves punishment. You can make all the excuses in the world for him, in the end he bowed out of a FINALS, not some meaningless game, the final game of the tournament.
I really have nothing else to say, ONOG ignore the people defending Stephano, you made the correct choice. I hope in the future your tournaments will go without inconsiderate people hurting you guys, and I enjoyed the parts of the cast I tuned into.
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On January 30 2012 13:24 krisss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 13:04 shaberu wrote:On January 30 2012 12:56 habbey wrote:On January 30 2012 12:46 shaberu wrote:
Obviously both sides are lacking in professionalism. Sure, Stephano could have played; he certainly couldn't have cheesed out of the series, because he'd then face the same reprisal Naniwa faced. Either that, or he could forfeit. It's really not his fault that the tournament hosts hadn't provided in advance for this sort of situation. Either way, he forfeits, he takes the community damage and damage to his reputation in terms of future events inviting him. Even if Stephano doesn't care about the fans, he still placed 2nd in the tournament.
Unfortunately, ONOG showed a serious lack in judgment (on top of a lack of professionalism). Stephano legitimately placed 2nd in their tournament, yet they refused to payout to Stephano? Unless they have a signed contract claiming that Stephano will play all games out in full, what are they even thinking? Even for a snap judgment, it makes absolutely no sense. You could ask the other players if they wanted to play out some matches for the viewers, etc., but how could you be as completely unprofessional as to take a player's rightfully earned winnings, especially after the player had logged off and you had (which is your fault for lack of foresight, as if Stephano wouldn't have given you his phone number had you asked) no way of contacting him?
Disappointing on both sides, but for people running the tournaments, this is absolutely shady and works into the same sort of absurdity as not paying out to winners. Absolutely disgusting. It wouldn't even logically make sense to spite him by forcing him into 4th place; if your logic is that the winner of 3rd/4th plays for 2nd, then shouldn't Stephano logically get at least 3rd place, considering he beat at least one of the 3rd/4th place players? If he forfeited and you had some sort of terms to offer him no money for whatever reason, fine. But what sort of sense does your decision make?
I don't understand how you couldn't possibly have had some sort of alternative -- even the largest tournaments have had severe outages. What if Stephano or Kas' internet had gone out for the remainder of the night? No alternatives planned? No contact information for the players to speak to them through a more reliable medium? Unprofessional. Before you start complaining about the professionalism of the players, we also need to uphold the same standards on the "organizations" involved as well.
Also, this also brings into question the professionalism of casters. Some of them are terrible and should be upheld to the same standard we expect of others in the community, eg: Tumba. I agree with many of the things you have said. I personally think all tournaments should have a clause that says if you forfeit you get DQ'ed. In this particular case it was a really tough decision for the tournament, put yourself in their shoes. Their whole tournament just got destroyed(not by an act of luck like power outage, but by a player you're paying) with I'm sure future tournaments depending on the success of this one (our last tournament got X viewers, etc). As far as the casters go, yes 100% casters are far too unprofessional TLDR: its a sad situation It's the tournament organizer's fault for not having something planned in case of a disruption. Considering how often tournaments (even the big ones) have experienced random problems, it just makes sense. You can't really complain about money-related anger/how hard you worked to organize this/etc. if you had no acceptable backup plan in case something were to have gone wrong. Unless Stephano agreed to have his prize forfeit upon forfeiting, or if it was clearly stated in some sort of rule, this was highly unprofessional of ONOG and an absolutely disgusting way of treating players. I would be very wary of dealing with an organization like this in the future, just as organizations should be wary of dealing with Stephano (or any number of unprofessional SC2 players). Also, ONOG isn't a kid who made a bad decision after playing for a period of time, and, having already secured a second place finished, decided to bow out rather than play substandard games (Stephano has been criticized for this before, remember). Everyone knows Stephano is only in things for the money, etc. and his reputation precedes him. ONOG should have taken this into account as well. ONOG as an organization made a terrible decision; last minute or not, unless they had some sort of specified contractual clause, they really should have no reason for stripping valid winnings from Stephano, unless, of course, he was being paid to attend and play all of his games (which I'm sure he wasn't). this is the only post of the last pages i agree with. If a player decides to forfeit an upcoming match, he still "keeps" his victories from previous rounds. Watch Tennis: during a Grand Slam, theres often players forfeiting their next matches. This doesnt mean they lose all their previous wins/ranking/prize money. Ofc every player normally rly WANTS to play, therefore they only forfeit in really hard emergencies. But this rules goes with ANY excuse. This is in Tennis, probably even other sports, and also should be the rule for esports. If the excuse is "im tired", he loses respect from his fans and eventually the organizers can consider not inviting this player to next tourneys. But tajking rankings/wins/prozemoney from previous rounds ist just pathetic, and should never happen.
Nah, kid had it coming.. too many excuses are made of his erratic behavior because he's young.. enough of that seriously. If he can't behave professionally he shouldn't accept invitations to play.. as simple as that. IMHO he should have been stripped of all the money earned, for being a disrespectful jackass, that's why.
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On January 30 2012 13:22 shaberu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 13:20 nicotn wrote:On January 30 2012 13:04 shaberu wrote:On January 30 2012 12:56 habbey wrote:On January 30 2012 12:46 shaberu wrote:
Obviously both sides are lacking in professionalism. Sure, Stephano could have played; he certainly couldn't have cheesed out of the series, because he'd then face the same reprisal Naniwa faced. Either that, or he could forfeit. It's really not his fault that the tournament hosts hadn't provided in advance for this sort of situation. Either way, he forfeits, he takes the community damage and damage to his reputation in terms of future events inviting him. Even if Stephano doesn't care about the fans, he still placed 2nd in the tournament.
Unfortunately, ONOG showed a serious lack in judgment (on top of a lack of professionalism). Stephano legitimately placed 2nd in their tournament, yet they refused to payout to Stephano? Unless they have a signed contract claiming that Stephano will play all games out in full, what are they even thinking? Even for a snap judgment, it makes absolutely no sense. You could ask the other players if they wanted to play out some matches for the viewers, etc., but how could you be as completely unprofessional as to take a player's rightfully earned winnings, especially after the player had logged off and you had (which is your fault for lack of foresight, as if Stephano wouldn't have given you his phone number had you asked) no way of contacting him?
Disappointing on both sides, but for people running the tournaments, this is absolutely shady and works into the same sort of absurdity as not paying out to winners. Absolutely disgusting. It wouldn't even logically make sense to spite him by forcing him into 4th place; if your logic is that the winner of 3rd/4th plays for 2nd, then shouldn't Stephano logically get at least 3rd place, considering he beat at least one of the 3rd/4th place players? If he forfeited and you had some sort of terms to offer him no money for whatever reason, fine. But what sort of sense does your decision make?
I don't understand how you couldn't possibly have had some sort of alternative -- even the largest tournaments have had severe outages. What if Stephano or Kas' internet had gone out for the remainder of the night? No alternatives planned? No contact information for the players to speak to them through a more reliable medium? Unprofessional. Before you start complaining about the professionalism of the players, we also need to uphold the same standards on the "organizations" involved as well.
Also, this also brings into question the professionalism of casters. Some of them are terrible and should be upheld to the same standard we expect of others in the community, eg: Tumba. I agree with many of the things you have said. I personally think all tournaments should have a clause that says if you forfeit you get DQ'ed. In this particular case it was a really tough decision for the tournament, put yourself in their shoes. Their whole tournament just got destroyed(not by an act of luck like power outage, but by a player you're paying) with I'm sure future tournaments depending on the success of this one (our last tournament got X viewers, etc). As far as the casters go, yes 100% casters are far too unprofessional TLDR: its a sad situation It's the tournament organizer's fault for not having something planned in case of a disruption. Considering how often tournaments (even the big ones) have experienced random problems, it just makes sense. You can't really complain about money-related anger/how hard you worked to organize this/etc. if you had no acceptable backup plan in case something were to have gone wrong. Unless Stephano agreed to have his prize forfeit upon forfeiting, or if it was clearly stated in some sort of rule, this was highly unprofessional of ONOG and an absolutely disgusting way of treating players. I would be very wary of dealing with an organization like this in the future, just as organizations should be wary of dealing with Stephano (or any number of unprofessional SC2 players). Also, ONOG isn't a kid who made a bad decision after playing for a period of time, and, having already secured a second place finished, decided to bow out rather than play substandard games (Stephano has been criticized for this before, remember). Everyone knows Stephano is only in things for the money, etc. and his reputation precedes him. ONOG should have taken this into account as well. ONOG as an organization made a terrible decision; last minute or not, unless they had some sort of specified contractual clause, they really should have no reason for stripping valid winnings from Stephano, unless, of course, he was being paid to attend and play all of his games (which I'm sure he wasn't). In a way, they did him a favor, they could just as easy disqualified him, and he would get nothing, atleast he gets 150$ now. hit them where it hurts. Um, they didn't even talk to him about the punishment they decided to dole out upon him as they didn't have any of his offline contact information. He rightfully placed second, gave them hours of entertainment to their profit, and drew a crowd of people who would come to watch Stephano play the games he ended up playing.
Its his own fault, you just don't say to a tournament OK IM TIRED, CYA *LOG OFF*, its disrespecting everything the admins/tournament people have worked for, especially when its the grand final. Imagine someone doing this in MLG.
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didn't millenium pull off the same shit when the forfeited the last game against slayers in ipl team arena?
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Wasnt Stephano the one who delayed this tournament himself by letting Illusion wait?
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On January 30 2012 13:30 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 13:22 s4life wrote:On January 30 2012 13:17 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 13:03 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 30 2012 13:00 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 12:34 habbey wrote:On January 30 2012 12:29 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 12:26 habbey wrote:On January 30 2012 12:24 HappyChris wrote:
The funny thing is LiquidTyler also forfeits but he didnt say any reason whatsoever but nop the TL posters got np at all with it. However when Stephano does it hole TL goes abeshit..
I seen this for so long time now it got nothing todo with what stephano did. It got everything todo that he beats players so horrible that there fans gets angry and he make so much money and people just cant accept it.
jealousy thats the word..
you see no difference between forfeiting in the finals after playing the tourney vs forfeiting before the tourney starts? If speaking of professionalism yourself, no there should be no difference. You can argue whether the ability to forfeit should be a principal player's right or they'd be forced to play for your pleasure with a gun held onto their head. Yes, with respect to professionalism there is a difference... If in your business you blow off a minor meeting with a boss its different than blowing off the quarterly meeting with the board. Except Stephano was under no obligation to play. He surely dissatisfied organizer and fan expectations but surely didn't misconducted in any way regarding standard tournament regulations. Do you really need it in writing? Don't go all legal over this. I have to, since people are mixing up formal and informal misbehavior. Of course I was dissappointed of not having a Stephano vs Kas finals. Of course it has damaged the event. Of course it adds into the image of Stephano being a diva. But at the end of the day it's about a player waiving a game for whatever reason. But tournament rules are a way more serious matter. How should players know when it's appropriate to forfeit or not? Up to which stage of a tournament? Finals, Semi's, round of 8,16,32,64,128? How should it be decided to burn a player or not? Will you act as judge for all running events? Or should it be clarified before a player agrees to the terms of the tournament? Is forfeiting even a fundamental right they should have? Which event format should allow forfeiting and which shouldn't? That's such a moot point.. In any sport, if any player doesn't wanna play he simply doesn't play.. what are the organizers gonna do about it? send him to jail? Still, any player pulling that kind of shit has to pay a price for it.. I hope Stephano also pays a tangible price for his unprofessional behavior. See my above post It is indeed a moot point with you, since "Still, any player pulling that kind of shit has to pay a price for it" You already have made up your mind that forfeiting should not be tolerated, and should be punishable through exception clauses. The only thing I have brought up that there might not be a definite answer to it. My personal view includes granting players the fundamental right of forfeit. Your's would be the refusal of such a right.
Your twisting of my words goes beyond the pale. Professional players of course can forfeit for valid, justifiable reasons, not for being tired or not 'feeling it' mind you.. if a pro tennis player quits in the final of a tennis tournament coz he was just tired, he absolutely deserves to be dismantled by the public and the organizers -- Henin got shredded when she did that against Mauresmo. If a player quits coz he pulled a muscle that's a completely different matter. When did I suggest otherwise?
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On January 30 2012 13:37 CEPEHDREI wrote:
Wasnt Stephano the one who delayed this tournament himself by letting Illusion wait?
No. He got administrative leave to have dinner. Organizers then failed to notify Illusion
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On January 30 2012 13:39 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 13:37 CEPEHDREI wrote:
Wasnt Stephano the one who delayed this tournament himself by letting Illusion wait? No. He got administrative leave to have dinner. Organizers then failed to notify Illusion
haha they'd let him eat and he goes offline for the finals? thats classy.
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On January 30 2012 13:38 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 13:30 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 13:22 s4life wrote:On January 30 2012 13:17 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 13:03 Mr Showtime wrote:On January 30 2012 13:00 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 12:34 habbey wrote:On January 30 2012 12:29 rotegirte wrote:On January 30 2012 12:26 habbey wrote:On January 30 2012 12:24 HappyChris wrote:
The funny thing is LiquidTyler also forfeits but he didnt say any reason whatsoever but nop the TL posters got np at all with it. However when Stephano does it hole TL goes abeshit..
I seen this for so long time now it got nothing todo with what stephano did. It got everything todo that he beats players so horrible that there fans gets angry and he make so much money and people just cant accept it.
jealousy thats the word..
you see no difference between forfeiting in the finals after playing the tourney vs forfeiting before the tourney starts? If speaking of professionalism yourself, no there should be no difference. You can argue whether the ability to forfeit should be a principal player's right or they'd be forced to play for your pleasure with a gun held onto their head. Yes, with respect to professionalism there is a difference... If in your business you blow off a minor meeting with a boss its different than blowing off the quarterly meeting with the board. Except Stephano was under no obligation to play. He surely dissatisfied organizer and fan expectations but surely didn't misconducted in any way regarding standard tournament regulations. Do you really need it in writing? Don't go all legal over this. I have to, since people are mixing up formal and informal misbehavior. Of course I was dissappointed of not having a Stephano vs Kas finals. Of course it has damaged the event. Of course it adds into the image of Stephano being a diva. But at the end of the day it's about a player waiving a game for whatever reason. But tournament rules are a way more serious matter. How should players know when it's appropriate to forfeit or not? Up to which stage of a tournament? Finals, Semi's, round of 8,16,32,64,128? How should it be decided to burn a player or not? Will you act as judge for all running events? Or should it be clarified before a player agrees to the terms of the tournament? Is forfeiting even a fundamental right they should have? Which event format should allow forfeiting and which shouldn't? That's such a moot point.. In any sport, if any player doesn't wanna play he simply doesn't play.. what are the organizers gonna do about it? send him to jail? Still, any player pulling that kind of shit has to pay a price for it.. I hope Stephano also pays a tangible price for his unprofessional behavior. See my above post It is indeed a moot point with you, since "Still, any player pulling that kind of shit has to pay a price for it" You already have made up your mind that forfeiting should not be tolerated, and should be punishable through exception clauses. The only thing I have brought up that there might not be a definite answer to it. My personal view includes granting players the fundamental right of forfeit. Your's would be the refusal of such a right. Your twisting of my words goes beyond the pale. Professional players of course can forfeit for valid, justifiable reasons, not for being tired or not 'feeling it' mind you.. if a pro tennis player quits in the final of a tennis tournament coz he was just tired, he absolutely deserves to be dismantled by the public and the organizers -- Henin got shredded when she did that against Mauresmo. If a player quits coz he pulled a muscle that's a completely different matter. When did I suggest otherwise?
And you have been ignoring a large part of my posts. I explicitly raised the question of how such judgment should be formalized? If it stays in the realm of "open to organizer's disclosure". Event A punishes player for forfeiting in round of 8. Event B doesn't punish. Event C, etc.
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