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On January 30 2012 20:01 ceaRshaf wrote:
Look at all these fans that are now banned. Awesome!
I actually think Stephanos way of putting things was out of place so ONOG replied very well. Players have to know that they can be forced respect.
That's a terrible thing to do. Forced respect means nothing.
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So refusing to pay prize money is now OK? I though we hate it. Shame on you ONOG.
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It's perfectly normal that Stephano doesn't get the second place. Why ?
If he were 2nd, then the match between Illusion and Kas would decide who gets to be 1st and who gets to be 3rd.
Now let's say Illusion wins this final match, then Kas get the third place, right ?. Well that would be absolutely crazy. How could Kas be 3rd by playing the final and Stephano 2nd by not playing it ? Okay, now let's think about the other way around now. If Kas wins this match, then, he his 1st and Illusion 3rd, which makes the final match pointless cause Illusion was already 3rd.
That's why playing the final match with a 2nd place assured for Stephano would have been idiot and a waste of time.
There is still one thing I don't agree with, though : it's the 4th place of Stephano, he should have been 3rd. First of all, he won a semi final when Catz didn't. Plus, Stephano & Catz both play zerg. Stephano scored 3-1 against Illusion where Catz lost 0-3 against Illusion.
Considering the events, I think it should have been like this : 1. Kas, 2. Illusion, 3. Stephano, 4. Catz.
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France12907 Posts
Lol Polt forfeited the zotac cup not the MSI pro cup, and there is no prizepool for the 2nd at zotac. Dunno what you tried to say...
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On January 30 2012 20:08 Lasbike wrote:
It's perfectly normal that Stephano doesn't get the second place. Why ?
If he were 2nd, then the match between Illusion and Kas would decide who gets to be 1st and who gets to be 3rd.
Now let's say Illusion wins this final match, then Kas get the third place, right ?. Well that would be absolutely crazy. How could Kas be 3rd by playing the final and Stephano 2nd by not playing it ? Okay, now let's think about the other way around now. If Kas wins this match, then, he his 1st and Illusion 3rd, which makes the final match pointless cause Illusion was already 3rd.
That's why playing the final match with a 2nd place assured for Stephano would have been idiot and a waste of time.
There is still one thing I don't agree with, though : it's the 4th place of Stephano, he should have been 3rd. First of all, he won a semi final when Catz didn't. Plus, Stephano & Catz both play zerg. Stephano scored 3-1 against Illusion where Catz lost 0-3 against Illusion.
Considering the events, I think it should have been like this : 1. Kas, 2. Illusion, 3. Stephano, 4. Catz.
The decision the admins made was just not very good from that point. Stephano did reach the final and did forfeit it. Thus he is 2nd and Kas is first, no matter what.
If you want to show games to the audience, show them 3rd place decider and a showmatch of the winner vs Kas. End of story. But putting Stephano in 4th place or even behind Illusion who he beat 3-1 is wrong.
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I would agree with you, but Kas wouldn't have played a BO7 showmatch at 4 AM.
Edit : And ONOG probably wanted a final for their event.
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Tough luck, still doesn't justify their decision.
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On January 30 2012 20:12 Lasbike wrote:
I would agree with you, but Kas wouldn't have played a BO7 showmatch at 4 AM.
Edit : And ONOG probably wanted a final for their event.
Well they never even asked him, he may have for his fans, he clearly wasn't feeling as tired based on how he played in the finals. They also could have avoided this by casting off replays to avoid delay or any problems like this like most other serious tournaments. Still an unfair decision, is stephano in the right? No, but I think most people agree ONOG is even more wrong for how they handled the situation. If something like that isn't stated up front you can't just decide on the fly. This isn't some kind of disconnect issue during a match where you decide if there is a regame, or win awarded. This has to do with overall prize money and structure. Sure they made the decision, but that doesn't mean it was ok for them to do even if it is within their power.
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I already pointed out that it depends on how you interpret forfeiting. It is entirely possible to justify the decision by saying forfeiting the match means forfeiting the whole tournament and thus retroactively forfeit all your matches. This interpretation is quite acceptable when the decision to forfeit is not acceptable, as in this case. If you can not play, that's different.
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Lol I didnt even think about stephano's prize money, he did earn the second spot either way. Sad to see him have to settle for 4th place just because he was tired. at 4 am..
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Stephano > Unprofessional, he knew this tournament could last long and shouldn't have suscribed maybe. Moreover, his way of dealing with the situation was childish and selfish.
ONOG > Even if it's not your fault if you invited such a child in your tournament, I'm sorry but you can't rightfully take Stephano's pricepool back, unless you had it written before on some contract signed by the players. Being professional is predicting such things and having answers to this type of situation. Obviously you didn't have any and made up an unfair one.
Without mentioning that if Stephano was bm enough to sue you (definitely a possibility), he would be in his rights and you would have to pay him.
Hope you will learn your lesson, thanks anyway for this tournament even if the ending was terrible.
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On January 30 2012 20:11 mTw|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 20:08 Lasbike wrote:
It's perfectly normal that Stephano doesn't get the second place. Why ?
If he were 2nd, then the match between Illusion and Kas would decide who gets to be 1st and who gets to be 3rd.
Now let's say Illusion wins this final match, then Kas get the third place, right ?. Well that would be absolutely crazy. How could Kas be 3rd by playing the final and Stephano 2nd by not playing it ? Okay, now let's think about the other way around now. If Kas wins this match, then, he his 1st and Illusion 3rd, which makes the final match pointless cause Illusion was already 3rd.
That's why playing the final match with a 2nd place assured for Stephano would have been idiot and a waste of time.
There is still one thing I don't agree with, though : it's the 4th place of Stephano, he should have been 3rd. First of all, he won a semi final when Catz didn't. Plus, Stephano & Catz both play zerg. Stephano scored 3-1 against Illusion where Catz lost 0-3 against Illusion.
Considering the events, I think it should have been like this : 1. Kas, 2. Illusion, 3. Stephano, 4. Catz. The decision the admins made was just not very good from that point. Stephano did reach the final and did forfeit it. Thus he is 2nd and Kas is first, no matter what. If you want to show games to the audience, show them 3rd place decider and a showmatch of the winner vs Kas. End of story. But putting Stephano in 4th place or even behind Illusion who he beat 3-1 is wrong.
Its the same idea i had few pages before.
Ps. With Illusion playing Kas for the first place we have the first ever SC2 tournament that changes it's format in the middle of the games. Started the playoffs as single-elimination bracket, ended with the finals resulted from double elimination format ^^
On January 30 2012 20:21 syllogism wrote:
I already pointed out that it depends on how you interpret forfeiting. It is entirely possible to justify the decision by saying forfeiting the match means forfeiting the whole tournament and thus retroactively forfeit all your matches. This interpretation is quite acceptable when the decision to forfeit is not acceptable, as in this case. If you can not play, that's different.
Now that would made the whole play-off part of the tournament invalid.
Since:
a) Catz and Rotti would advance
or
b) Nony wouldn't forfeit his games if he knew Stephanos games would also be forfeited.
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First of all, it wasn't 5AM as some people seem to make it.. it was between 2AM and 3AM, Stephano asked the people holding the tournament if he could play "tomorrow" since he was tired and didn't want to wait for the 3rd/4th-place matches.
They told him no, it was a one-evening event. They then asked him if he could play the finals right then, so they could cast the final games from replays after Catz and Illusion had battled it out. But he said he'd just give Kas the win and went to sleep.
From Stephanos point of view: he was tired, he had been playing all day. I totally understand him and I believe you should be able to drop out (with or without reason) at any point in time. If they choose not to invite him again, it's their call. He got second, he should have second.
From the admins point of view: Stephano had asked to hold his matches for about an hour, delaying the tournament. They were very sympathetic since he just played in another tournament, letting him get a little time off. And then they hear he wants to sleep, they can't cast a Barcraft at the next day/morning since it's not in their or the casters schedules. They ask him to play right then, but he declines, ruines the big finale and logs off. Now they're a bit upset and left with a 3rd-place match as their final games. It's a Barcraft, it's still pretty early in the US (I guess) and with no first place matches it'd be over way sooner than they'd think. What to do?
Now I'm sure I missed something, as it's not quite as easy to hear and read every single thing with a 3 month baby that doesn't wish to sleep. (: But this is all I gathered while watching the stream.
I'm just trying to get people to see what happened and what everyone involved might think. I don't really care much myself, I like Stephano and I like ONOG - I wont stop supporting either.
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I understand all the "he reached the finals and forfeit = loss = second place" discussion.
However, what if we look at it as "he was disqualified", would he still be entitled to 2nd place?
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On January 30 2012 20:28 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 20:11 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 30 2012 20:08 Lasbike wrote:
It's perfectly normal that Stephano doesn't get the second place. Why ?
If he were 2nd, then the match between Illusion and Kas would decide who gets to be 1st and who gets to be 3rd.
Now let's say Illusion wins this final match, then Kas get the third place, right ?. Well that would be absolutely crazy. How could Kas be 3rd by playing the final and Stephano 2nd by not playing it ? Okay, now let's think about the other way around now. If Kas wins this match, then, he his 1st and Illusion 3rd, which makes the final match pointless cause Illusion was already 3rd.
That's why playing the final match with a 2nd place assured for Stephano would have been idiot and a waste of time.
There is still one thing I don't agree with, though : it's the 4th place of Stephano, he should have been 3rd. First of all, he won a semi final when Catz didn't. Plus, Stephano & Catz both play zerg. Stephano scored 3-1 against Illusion where Catz lost 0-3 against Illusion.
Considering the events, I think it should have been like this : 1. Kas, 2. Illusion, 3. Stephano, 4. Catz. The decision the admins made was just not very good from that point. Stephano did reach the final and did forfeit it. Thus he is 2nd and Kas is first, no matter what. If you want to show games to the audience, show them 3rd place decider and a showmatch of the winner vs Kas. End of story. But putting Stephano in 4th place or even behind Illusion who he beat 3-1 is wrong. Its the same idea i had few pages before. Ps. With Illusion playing Kas for the first place we have the first ever SC2 tournament that changes it's format in the middle of the games. Started the playoffs as single-elimination bracket, ended with the finals resulted from double elimination format ^^ Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 20:21 syllogism wrote:
I already pointed out that it depends on how you interpret forfeiting. It is entirely possible to justify the decision by saying forfeiting the match means forfeiting the whole tournament and thus retroactively forfeit all your matches. This interpretation is quite acceptable when the decision to forfeit is not acceptable, as in this case. If you can not play, that's different. Now that would made the whole play-off part of the tournament invalid. Since: a) Catz and Rotti would advance or b) Nony wouldn't forfeit his games if he knew Stephanos games would also be forfeited.
Yes, but then the player who made it furthest would still advance. Retroactive forfeiting is just a mechanic for achieving the intended solution. Another term for disqualification really. While it's harsh, Stephano didn't even have the courtesy to wait until the admins decided what to do.
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On January 30 2012 19:42 mTw|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 30 2012 19:37 Mackguy wrote:Well, I don't like Stephano the man much, but I'd like to personally thanks him, for letting Europeans go to bed earlier, instead of staying up all night and see poor quality games. Like many of you, I was looking forward for a Kas vs Stephano, but allins and rushes no thank you. They are two macro players, who are best in long 40 min + games. Any other way, who have been disrespectful to the community. so it's my personal feeling, that no match is better than a fake one. Stephano probably won't miss that money that much, given all his earnings, and the "I am tired" excuse is totally immature from his part (anybody with a job, would probably laugh his ass off, when hearing a guy payed to play is tired, I know because I did), it's not like he has to wake up @6 take the kids to school, go to work, and face a monster traffic jam... None the less, if tournaments, don't have rules to handle such simple matter like forfeiting, they should not make it on the go, they are screwing the players over, stephano should take legal action against them. In fact, I feel like players are really not well protected against such organization, for many sports, we have player associations, who represent and defends their interest. Esports should have such representation, so that we don't have tournaments, which don't pay the players, outrank them.. as they feel. see, what happend to Cloud : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=281161Progamers are making a living out of this, so this is a serious matter, because if we aim for professional esport, we cannot afford to have such organization. I disagree with you on the point where you see its an excuse of Stephano when he says he's tired. Playing 10+ hours on such a level is exhausting, mentally and physically. I don't think you ever played on high level, but it is demanding. I played broodwar for 12-14 hours a day on B+/A- on iCCup which is not SUPER HIGH like progamer level, but it is a very very high amateur level... and you get fucking tired. You cannot concentrate.
Not the point I was making, but please don't start with "I am paid to play a game, I have a tough life, it's very tiring", no I don't plan to play games for a living. I prefered to bet on education, which is something stephano will do in September when he quits. I don't think you ever got a real job, or having to raise/support a familly. that's when things get tough, enjoy your free happy time  and good luck with your new team
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On January 30 2012 20:37 Mackguy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 19:42 mTw|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 30 2012 19:37 Mackguy wrote:Well, I don't like Stephano the man much, but I'd like to personally thanks him, for letting Europeans go to bed earlier, instead of staying up all night and see poor quality games. Like many of you, I was looking forward for a Kas vs Stephano, but allins and rushes no thank you. They are two macro players, who are best in long 40 min + games. Any other way, who have been disrespectful to the community. so it's my personal feeling, that no match is better than a fake one. Stephano probably won't miss that money that much, given all his earnings, and the "I am tired" excuse is totally immature from his part (anybody with a job, would probably laugh his ass off, when hearing a guy payed to play is tired, I know because I did), it's not like he has to wake up @6 take the kids to school, go to work, and face a monster traffic jam... None the less, if tournaments, don't have rules to handle such simple matter like forfeiting, they should not make it on the go, they are screwing the players over, stephano should take legal action against them. In fact, I feel like players are really not well protected against such organization, for many sports, we have player associations, who represent and defends their interest. Esports should have such representation, so that we don't have tournaments, which don't pay the players, outrank them.. as they feel. see, what happend to Cloud : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=281161Progamers are making a living out of this, so this is a serious matter, because if we aim for professional esport, we cannot afford to have such organization. I disagree with you on the point where you see its an excuse of Stephano when he says he's tired. Playing 10+ hours on such a level is exhausting, mentally and physically. I don't think you ever played on high level, but it is demanding. I played broodwar for 12-14 hours a day on B+/A- on iCCup which is not SUPER HIGH like progamer level, but it is a very very high amateur level... and you get fucking tired. You cannot concentrate. Not the point I was making, but please don't start with "I am paid to play a game, I have a tough life, it's very tiring", no I don't plan to play games for a living. I prefered to bet on education, which is something stephano will do in September when he quits. I don't think you ever got a real job, or having to raise/support a familly. that's when things get tough, enjoy your free happy time and good luck with your new team
The condescension present in this post is so ludicrously unjustified...
What position are you in to justify this level of criticism, you have no difficult or easy his life or the path he's chosen may or may not be. And even if you were, it's completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
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On January 30 2012 20:35 syllogism wrote:
Yes, but then the player who made it furthest would still advance. Retroactive forfeiting is just a mechanic for achieving the intended solution. Another term for disqualification really. While it's harsh, Stephano didn't even have the courtesy to wait until the admins decided what to do.
To be honest i would like to see tournament rules. Because all the info is only about the format and maps.
Did they even have a rule book or just were making up rules as they go?
Since moving Stephano to 4th place could be seen as hasty decision made in a spur of the moment.
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On January 30 2012 20:37 Mackguy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 19:42 mTw|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 30 2012 19:37 Mackguy wrote:Well, I don't like Stephano the man much, but I'd like to personally thanks him, for letting Europeans go to bed earlier, instead of staying up all night and see poor quality games. Like many of you, I was looking forward for a Kas vs Stephano, but allins and rushes no thank you. They are two macro players, who are best in long 40 min + games. Any other way, who have been disrespectful to the community. so it's my personal feeling, that no match is better than a fake one. Stephano probably won't miss that money that much, given all his earnings, and the "I am tired" excuse is totally immature from his part (anybody with a job, would probably laugh his ass off, when hearing a guy payed to play is tired, I know because I did), it's not like he has to wake up @6 take the kids to school, go to work, and face a monster traffic jam... None the less, if tournaments, don't have rules to handle such simple matter like forfeiting, they should not make it on the go, they are screwing the players over, stephano should take legal action against them. In fact, I feel like players are really not well protected against such organization, for many sports, we have player associations, who represent and defends their interest. Esports should have such representation, so that we don't have tournaments, which don't pay the players, outrank them.. as they feel. see, what happend to Cloud : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=281161Progamers are making a living out of this, so this is a serious matter, because if we aim for professional esport, we cannot afford to have such organization. I disagree with you on the point where you see its an excuse of Stephano when he says he's tired. Playing 10+ hours on such a level is exhausting, mentally and physically. I don't think you ever played on high level, but it is demanding. I played broodwar for 12-14 hours a day on B+/A- on iCCup which is not SUPER HIGH like progamer level, but it is a very very high amateur level... and you get fucking tired. You cannot concentrate. Not the point I was making, but please don't start with "I am paid to play a game, I have a tough life, it's very tiring", no I don't plan to play games for a living. I prefered to bet on education, which is something stephano will do in September when he quits. I don't think you ever got a real job, or having to raise/support a familly. that's when things get tough, enjoy your free happy time and good luck with your new team
lol you have no idea what your talking about dude, I'm pretty sure naruto is not a full time pro gamer and am pretty sure he works. Honestly what are you trying to say?
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On January 30 2012 20:37 Mackguy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 19:42 mTw|NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 30 2012 19:37 Mackguy wrote:Well, I don't like Stephano the man much, but I'd like to personally thanks him, for letting Europeans go to bed earlier, instead of staying up all night and see poor quality games. Like many of you, I was looking forward for a Kas vs Stephano, but allins and rushes no thank you. They are two macro players, who are best in long 40 min + games. Any other way, who have been disrespectful to the community. so it's my personal feeling, that no match is better than a fake one. Stephano probably won't miss that money that much, given all his earnings, and the "I am tired" excuse is totally immature from his part (anybody with a job, would probably laugh his ass off, when hearing a guy payed to play is tired, I know because I did), it's not like he has to wake up @6 take the kids to school, go to work, and face a monster traffic jam... None the less, if tournaments, don't have rules to handle such simple matter like forfeiting, they should not make it on the go, they are screwing the players over, stephano should take legal action against them. In fact, I feel like players are really not well protected against such organization, for many sports, we have player associations, who represent and defends their interest. Esports should have such representation, so that we don't have tournaments, which don't pay the players, outrank them.. as they feel. see, what happend to Cloud : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=281161Progamers are making a living out of this, so this is a serious matter, because if we aim for professional esport, we cannot afford to have such organization. I disagree with you on the point where you see its an excuse of Stephano when he says he's tired. Playing 10+ hours on such a level is exhausting, mentally and physically. I don't think you ever played on high level, but it is demanding. I played broodwar for 12-14 hours a day on B+/A- on iCCup which is not SUPER HIGH like progamer level, but it is a very very high amateur level... and you get fucking tired. You cannot concentrate. Not the point I was making, but please don't start with "I am paid to play a game, I have a tough life, it's very tiring", no I don't plan to play games for a living. I prefered to bet on education, which is something stephano will do in September when he quits. I don't think you ever got a real job, or having to raise/support a familly. that's when things get tough, enjoy your free happy time and good luck with your new team
You just made yourself look stupid. I have a full-time job. Nightshifts, Lateshifts, Earlyshifts. I know how tough a job is. I do live on my own and I still invest some time into Starcraft 2. Playing a game on high level is physically demanding and tiring, if you are not able to see or feel it, you never had a high level in any game.
After a 14 hour ladder run when trying to focus as much as possible I am exhausted. Its different from when I do body workout or my job, but its still exhausting and tiring and you lose so much focus over the time.
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EPT
