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On January 30 2012 19:27 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 19:18 Legace wrote:
Oh well, next time -- let's put a gun to Stephanos head; "DANCE MONKEY, DANCE FOR OUR PLEASURE!"
They should have planned to start with Kas vs. CatZ as soon as they knew Stephano reached the SCAN final. Are you saying organizers should foresee circumstances that the players themselves should take care of? gimme a freaking break will ya..
Uhm, no. I said they should have started with the Kas vs. CatZ match when the Stephano vs. Illusion was supposed to be played instead of running 40 minutes late to start of the day.
Sir, are you retarded?
User was temp banned for this post.
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Well,
I don't like Stephano the man much, but I'd like to personally thanks him, for letting Europeans go to bed earlier, instead of staying up all night and see poor quality games. Like many of you, I was looking forward for a Kas vs Stephano, but allins and rushes no thank you.
They are two macro players, who are best in long 40 min + games. Any other way, who have been disrespectful to the community. so it's my personal feeling, that no match is better than a fake one.
Stephano probably won't miss that money that much, given all his earnings, and the "I am tired" excuse is totally immature from his part (anybody with a job, would probably laugh his ass off, when hearing a guy payed to play is tired, I know because I did), it's not like he has to wake up @6 take the kids to school, go to work, and face a monster traffic jam...
None the less, if tournaments, don't have rules to handle such simple matter like forfeiting, they should not make it on the go, they are screwing the players over, stephano should take legal action against them. In fact, I feel like players are really not well protected against such organization, for many sports, we have player associations, who represent and defends their interest. Esports should have such representation, so that we don't have tournaments, which don't pay the players, outrank them.. as they feel.
see, what happend to Cloud : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=281161
Progamers are making a living out of this, so this is a serious matter, because if we aim for professional esport, we cannot afford to have such organization.
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I doubt Stephano cares much about 2nd or 4th place prize differences. More about all the people getting rage at him forfeiting.
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On January 30 2012 19:35 Megabuster123 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 19:29 Holdinga wrote:On January 30 2012 19:26 Megabuster123 wrote:On January 30 2012 19:25 Holdinga wrote:
This is a fucking disgrace. Stephano should fight for his rights. Illusion should give the 2nd place prize to stephano if he is a good man. No, that would be retarded...Why would Illusion give away the prize money that he earned....>_> Because he lost to stephano fair and square in the semi-finals. There should be a thread in the general section about this thing. A lot of people should be informed about what ONOG did so they never support / watch it again. I saw the whole tournament. Illusion made it farther than Stephano in the tournament. Whatever qualm you have should be with the tournament, not with players. Illusion shouldn't be penalized because of this stupid complicated mess that's been created.
Of course he doesnt have to be penalized. I never said he should be penalized. I just said if he is a good guy he will write a check for the difference between 3rd and 2nd place to stephano. I know i would. But there are not many people like me that think about what is right and what is wrong.
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There isn't a thread for this either.
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On January 30 2012 19:35 Megabuster123 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 19:29 Holdinga wrote:On January 30 2012 19:26 Megabuster123 wrote:On January 30 2012 19:25 Holdinga wrote:
This is a fucking disgrace. Stephano should fight for his rights. Illusion should give the 2nd place prize to stephano if he is a good man. No, that would be retarded...Why would Illusion give away the prize money that he earned....>_> Because he lost to stephano fair and square in the semi-finals. There should be a thread in the general section about this thing. A lot of people should be informed about what ONOG did so they never support / watch it again. I saw the whole tournament. Illusion made it farther than Stephano in the tournament. Whatever qualm you have should be with the tournament, not with players. Illusion shouldn't be penalized because of this stupid complicated mess that's been created.
Come on? How did Illusion make it further than Stephano? Seriously now its really getting out of hand. Illusion lost 1-3 to Stephano fair and square. Forfeiting in the final does mean Stephano is second. Putting him in 4th place is wrong.
And I don't support Stephanos unprofessional way of forfeiting, but its his right to do so and he should not receive penalty for that or be put in 4th place. You can give him a penalty for his behavior and not invite him to the next tournament, but in that situation it is like it is.
And the event managers have to deal with it.
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On January 30 2012 19:31 Agathon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 19:29 mrGRAPE wrote:On January 30 2012 19:26 Agathon wrote:
"stephano the french pride - french doing what the french do best and surrender, keeping the record in surrendering" Well that's pretty damn bad manner as well - who was it? Dunno, it was not Bitter. My english is pretty bad, i didn't get the name of his cocaster.
Unless they switched casters it was TumbaSC then.
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On January 30 2012 19:31 cyclone25 wrote:
If you want the players to act professional, the tournament organizers must be professional themselves first.
Not other professional sport forces the players to play at 3:00am in the morning.
Also Stephano just posted on twitter: "I dont understand why people can get mad cuz i gave up for onog, even if i had played the game would have been awful."
This is incorrect. See for instance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_Hours_of_Le_Mans
I'm sure there are many other examples. Also, no one is being forced to do anything as the players know in advance that the event might run quite late into the night. Why do people keep repeating these nonsensical claims? The majority of pro gamers practice all night even when they aren't "forced" by a tournament.
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On January 30 2012 19:38 Holdinga wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 19:35 Megabuster123 wrote:On January 30 2012 19:29 Holdinga wrote:On January 30 2012 19:26 Megabuster123 wrote:On January 30 2012 19:25 Holdinga wrote:
This is a fucking disgrace. Stephano should fight for his rights. Illusion should give the 2nd place prize to stephano if he is a good man. No, that would be retarded...Why would Illusion give away the prize money that he earned....>_> Because he lost to stephano fair and square in the semi-finals. There should be a thread in the general section about this thing. A lot of people should be informed about what ONOG did so they never support / watch it again. I saw the whole tournament. Illusion made it farther than Stephano in the tournament. Whatever qualm you have should be with the tournament, not with players. Illusion shouldn't be penalized because of this stupid complicated mess that's been created. Of course he doesnt have to be penalized. I never said he should be penalized. I just said if he is a good guy he will write a check for the difference between 3rd and 2nd place to stephano. I know i would. But there are not many people like me that think about what is right and what is wrong.
Na, I don't think you would.
Illusion got kinda screwed earlier, and now he's supposed to send this guy money after the fact? Not likely.
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On January 30 2012 19:37 Mackguy wrote:Well, I don't like Stephano the man much, but I'd like to personally thanks him, for letting Europeans go to bed earlier, instead of staying up all night and see poor quality games. Like many of you, I was looking forward for a Kas vs Stephano, but allins and rushes no thank you. They are two macro players, who are best in long 40 min + games. Any other way, who have been disrespectful to the community. so it's my personal feeling, that no match is better than a fake one. Stephano probably won't miss that money that much, given all his earnings, and the "I am tired" excuse is totally immature from his part (anybody with a job, would probably laugh his ass off, when hearing a guy payed to play is tired, I know because I did), it's not like he has to wake up @6 take the kids to school, go to work, and face a monster traffic jam... None the less, if tournaments, don't have rules to handle such simple matter like forfeiting, they should not make it on the go, they are screwing the players over, stephano should take legal action against them. In fact, I feel like players are really not well protected against such organization, for many sports, we have player associations, who represent and defends their interest. Esports should have such representation, so that we don't have tournaments, which don't pay the players, outrank them.. as they feel. see, what happend to Cloud : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=281161Progamers are making a living out of this, so this is a serious matter, because if we aim for professional esport, we cannot afford to have such organization.
I disagree with you on the point where you see its an excuse of Stephano when he says he's tired. Playing 10+ hours on such a level is exhausting, mentally and physically. I don't think you ever played on high level, but it is demanding. I played broodwar for 12-14 hours a day on B+/A- on iCCup which is not SUPER HIGH like progamer level, but it is a very very high amateur level... and you get fucking tired. You cannot concentrate.
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On January 30 2012 19:40 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 19:31 cyclone25 wrote:
If you want the players to act professional, the tournament organizers must be professional themselves first.
Not other professional sport forces the players to play at 3:00am in the morning.
Also Stephano just posted on twitter: "I dont understand why people can get mad cuz i gave up for onog, even if i had played the game would have been awful." This is incorrect. See for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_Hours_of_Le_MansI'm sure there are many other examples. Also, no one is being forced to do anything as the players know in advance that the event might run quite late into the night. Why do people keep repeating these nonsensical claims?
And you realise, that no driver drives for 24 hours? I don't believe it is more than 2 hours at any period ... he was playing all day ...
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On January 30 2012 19:39 mTw|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 19:35 Megabuster123 wrote:On January 30 2012 19:29 Holdinga wrote:On January 30 2012 19:26 Megabuster123 wrote:On January 30 2012 19:25 Holdinga wrote:
This is a fucking disgrace. Stephano should fight for his rights. Illusion should give the 2nd place prize to stephano if he is a good man. No, that would be retarded...Why would Illusion give away the prize money that he earned....>_> Because he lost to stephano fair and square in the semi-finals. There should be a thread in the general section about this thing. A lot of people should be informed about what ONOG did so they never support / watch it again. I saw the whole tournament. Illusion made it farther than Stephano in the tournament. Whatever qualm you have should be with the tournament, not with players. Illusion shouldn't be penalized because of this stupid complicated mess that's been created. Come on? How did Illusion make it further than Stephano? Seriously now its really getting out of hand. Illusion lost 1-3 to Stephano fair and square. Forfeiting in the final does mean Stephano is second. Putting him in 4th place is wrong. And I don't support Stephanos unprofessional way of forfeiting, but its his right to do so and he should not receive penalty for that or be put in 4th place. You can give him a penalty for his behavior and not invite him to the next tournament, but in that situation it is like it is. And the event managers have to deal with it.
He made it farther because the tournament organizers said he did. I'm not going to make any more comments on the ethics of either party, but based on the format that they created Illusion made it further.
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On January 30 2012 19:43 Megabuster123 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 19:39 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 30 2012 19:35 Megabuster123 wrote:On January 30 2012 19:29 Holdinga wrote:On January 30 2012 19:26 Megabuster123 wrote:On January 30 2012 19:25 Holdinga wrote:
This is a fucking disgrace. Stephano should fight for his rights. Illusion should give the 2nd place prize to stephano if he is a good man. No, that would be retarded...Why would Illusion give away the prize money that he earned....>_> Because he lost to stephano fair and square in the semi-finals. There should be a thread in the general section about this thing. A lot of people should be informed about what ONOG did so they never support / watch it again. I saw the whole tournament. Illusion made it farther than Stephano in the tournament. Whatever qualm you have should be with the tournament, not with players. Illusion shouldn't be penalized because of this stupid complicated mess that's been created. Come on? How did Illusion make it further than Stephano? Seriously now its really getting out of hand. Illusion lost 1-3 to Stephano fair and square. Forfeiting in the final does mean Stephano is second. Putting him in 4th place is wrong. And I don't support Stephanos unprofessional way of forfeiting, but its his right to do so and he should not receive penalty for that or be put in 4th place. You can give him a penalty for his behavior and not invite him to the next tournament, but in that situation it is like it is. And the event managers have to deal with it. He made it farther because the tournament organizers said he did. I'm not going to make any more comments on the ethics of either party, but based on the format that they created Illusion made it further.
What format? Where is the format saying Stephano gets dropped to 4th? Just their decision last night?
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On January 30 2012 19:45 b0rt_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 19:43 Megabuster123 wrote:On January 30 2012 19:39 mTw|NarutO wrote:On January 30 2012 19:35 Megabuster123 wrote:On January 30 2012 19:29 Holdinga wrote:On January 30 2012 19:26 Megabuster123 wrote:On January 30 2012 19:25 Holdinga wrote:
This is a fucking disgrace. Stephano should fight for his rights. Illusion should give the 2nd place prize to stephano if he is a good man. No, that would be retarded...Why would Illusion give away the prize money that he earned....>_> Because he lost to stephano fair and square in the semi-finals. There should be a thread in the general section about this thing. A lot of people should be informed about what ONOG did so they never support / watch it again. I saw the whole tournament. Illusion made it farther than Stephano in the tournament. Whatever qualm you have should be with the tournament, not with players. Illusion shouldn't be penalized because of this stupid complicated mess that's been created. Come on? How did Illusion make it further than Stephano? Seriously now its really getting out of hand. Illusion lost 1-3 to Stephano fair and square. Forfeiting in the final does mean Stephano is second. Putting him in 4th place is wrong. And I don't support Stephanos unprofessional way of forfeiting, but its his right to do so and he should not receive penalty for that or be put in 4th place. You can give him a penalty for his behavior and not invite him to the next tournament, but in that situation it is like it is. And the event managers have to deal with it. He made it farther because the tournament organizers said he did. I'm not going to make any more comments on the ethics of either party, but based on the format that they created Illusion made it further. What format? Where is the format saying Stephano gets dropped to 4th? Just their decision last night?
Yeah, that format. When the tournament organizers made the call. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but that's the call they made, and they run the tournament.
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On January 30 2012 19:42 coko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 19:40 syllogism wrote:On January 30 2012 19:31 cyclone25 wrote:
If you want the players to act professional, the tournament organizers must be professional themselves first.
Not other professional sport forces the players to play at 3:00am in the morning.
Also Stephano just posted on twitter: "I dont understand why people can get mad cuz i gave up for onog, even if i had played the game would have been awful." This is incorrect. See for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_Hours_of_Le_MansI'm sure there are many other examples. Also, no one is being forced to do anything as the players know in advance that the event might run quite late into the night. Why do people keep repeating these nonsensical claims? And you realise, that no driver drives for 24 hours? I don't believe it is more than 2 hours at any period ... he was playing all day ...
Why can't you let him take responsibility choir his own actions? No one forced him to play all day. Why should I feel sorry for him when it's his own fault?
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On January 30 2012 19:40 Legace wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 19:31 Agathon wrote:On January 30 2012 19:29 mrGRAPE wrote:On January 30 2012 19:26 Agathon wrote:
"stephano the french pride - french doing what the french do best and surrender, keeping the record in surrendering" Well that's pretty damn bad manner as well - who was it? Dunno, it was not Bitter. My english is pretty bad, i didn't get the name of his cocaster. Unless they switched casters it was TumbaSC then.
yeah Tumba did say that , I already heard that french bashing quote when, Stephano "gratz" (aka gg) in another tournament.. I guess french are cowards, germans are nazis, we'll get this all the time, and it gets tiring.
Everybody did gg or ragequit a game right ? so everybody surrender all the time, give us a break.
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Next time ONOG will do as all serious online tournaments between EU US and KR do, they will play the matches beforehand and stream the replays. That would have been the best solution considering it was for barcrafts, as all delays would have been avoided. There was a big chance trying to run the event live would end up in a disaster, and it did. Both Stephano and ONOG are at fault to not anticipate it, and more ONOG than Stephano imho, as it was another small tournament for Stephano and he probably didn't even know that it was streamed live in barcraft, whereas it's ONOG responsibility to actually ORGANIZE the tournament to make sure everything runs smooth.
Few points to notice :
- Stephano asked for a pause after the Scan tournament, admin accepted it, so in no way he is at fault for the 1 hour delay at the start.
- The right to forfeit should be absolute. Considering the actions the admin took, there are 2 possibilities : it is covered by the tournament's rules, or it's not. In this case, it's not, so the most common rule could have been applied, forfeit loss = 0 4 + 2nd place for Stephano, and possible sanction for next events (not being invited or smg). On a more "human" pov, you can't blame Stephano to forfeit, playing super tired would have led to awful games and / or 4 six-pools, it's actually respectful towards viewers to prevent that. You can blame him for not planning it properly beforehand, but for that, see above
- However, it was an even for barcraft, so matches needed to be played, so you can understand the solution chosen by the admins, even if it doesn't seem fair for Stephano, it's totally within their rights : no written rule = you can do whatever you want. And it was actually a good solution for viewers.
- This Tumba caster has to go. You don't make xenophobic jokes on a widely viewed stream, no matter how used / funny the joke is. As a french, even if I don't feel particularly upset with this joke, having to hear / read it every second day on the internet actually gets a bit old and annoying. In french we have a saying, "les blagues les plus courtes sont les meilleures", ie "shortest jokes are the best ones".
All in one, it was the first tournament organized by ONOG and I'm sure they'll use it as an experience and learn from it, so we can expect better organization in the future. As for Stephano, everyone will have forgotten in 2 weeks, especially considering he was for a lot of ppl well within his rights.
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He is second, just pay him, and never invit him in futur if you don't like him. That's all.
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Look at all these fans that are now banned. Awesome!
I actually think Stephanos way of putting things was out of place so ONOG replied very well. Players have to know that they can be forced respect.
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EPT
