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TL has become a cesspool of entitled little armchair critics who think everything should go the way they want OR ELSE. Match fixing accusations with nothing other than one guy lost (no shit, happens) and they were former teammates is retarded.
First off you guys don't even know shit about Inca or Zenio's personal relationships. For all you know Inca could be better friends with any one of those players than Zenio a former teammate (zenio doesn't even live in ogs house anymore dur), players aren't only friends with their teammates for fucks sake, they all live in the same city and hang out/play together all the time regardless of teams.
If that sort of stupid logic is enough to accuse people of match fixing literally almost every single group play now then what about all the other reasons you can come up with? What about just wanting weaker players to go through to maybe make his bracket easier in code s? Helping the guy who helped you prepare for a certain match, or gave him a piece of their lunch that day? We have to monitor every player 24/7 to make sure they have no interaction with each other that might make them like or favor one player over another one. /eyeroll
Koreans especially know the gravity of match fixing, look what happened to Coca. Koreans aren't retarded and they mostly care quite a bit more than non koreans about "showing good games" and "trying their best", they aren't going to "match fix" just cause they were former team mates with someone. As for Inca's play, Inca is not a very solid player he always relies on risky or cheesey builds that either win or fail miserably. How can you be surprised he messes up and loses vs Zenio, the guy is in code S because he DT cheesed out Polt ffs and almost even messed that up too. You need a lot more evidence then that if you're going to throw out stupid accusations.
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On December 22 2011 02:02 CosmicSpiral wrote:
His argument and my argument are completely different. Why should I bother refuting an argument that has nothing to do with my complaint? Maybe tree.hugger should ask me to clarify my position before trying to rip me apart.
If you make a post about something and have a position, make that position clear in your post.
You didn't then, but now you have the chance: clarify your position.
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Considering Zenio and Inca were from the same team and lived together for a long time, GOM should've made them play first instead of last to dispel any accusations.
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wow that's awesome, great to see InCa make it! didn't think he'd be able to honestly
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Oh goddamnit, I did not want Inca back in code S. I do not enjoy his play at all.
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Nice to see Inca finally back where he belongs!
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Wtf... who would have guessed Inca would be back in Code S. I did not want him to make it back in over Losira. Oh well..
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8751 Posts
On December 22 2011 02:02 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 01:37 Hassybaby wrote:On December 22 2011 01:28 CosmicSpiral wrote:On December 22 2011 01:13 tree.hugger wrote:On December 22 2011 00:55 CosmicSpiral wrote:On December 22 2011 00:10 bennyaus wrote:
Inca is nowhere near as bad as people are making him out to be. It is Polt and Losira's fault they lost, not his fault that he won. He has shown a new level of play, both in the Korean Weekly, and in his previous Code A match, before this season, against DRG (I thought he played really well vs DRG back then). He is a capable player that may or may not get nerves on stage. No need to shit all over him. The system worked, he beat 2 ex-Code S players in Bo1 and finished 2nd in the Up and Down group, so he goes up to Code S. If you want to complain about a so-called bad player going to Code S, then talking to Losira and Polt and ask them how they lost to Inca, even though they know DT is his trademark, and there are standard timings for turrets/spores. If they are so much better than him, they can afford the slight loss of economy for 100% safety. Similarly, ask Losira how he lost to a 'worse' player in Zenio, despite gaining an advantage in the early game. Don't blame the player who won, blame the one you wanted to win, who lost, as it is his fault. See that's the entire problem with this system. That's not a problem, that's simply how the system works. It doesn't disadvantage good players any more than it disadvantages bad players. Everyone knows what the system is, everyone knows what they need to prepare for, and if you prepare poorly, you'll lose. Your argument isn't borne out by the reality of the games, Zenio beat LosirA and lost to Polt in longer games, he didn't cheese his way through, there's no evidence that LosirA would've suddenly been guaranteed to win the second two games if it were a Bo3. InCa prepared extremely well, do you think if it were a Bo3 he'd somehow be incapable of preparing builds on other maps? Just because the players you think should've advanced didn't don't mean the system is broken. Yesterday there was a group that went exactly as it should've, there wasn't really a single upset. Good players aren't the kind of players who can only win in long series, just as good players aren't the kind of players who can win in only short series. The fact is, good players should be able to win no matter what the circumstances of the tournament are. ...it amuses me with people type long paragraphs about issues I am not talking about, Sorry your one line response wasn't clear enough. He responded to the highlighted part, assumed you meant the problem is the Bo1 format. I do think the BO1 format is a problem, but it's not necessarily because the "better" player will fail to make it out of his group. That happens all the time in BO3, BO5, BO7, etc. because one player outplays the other one. However this format obscures who "deserves" Code S status because it promotes map-specific strategies and generally poor long-term play in combination. While the unorthodox plays have been well-executed for the most part, the macro games have been uniformly terrible with a few exceptions (e.g. Gumiho vs Ryung). I don't know why this is the case but it's happened far too often to be a mere coincidence. In short I think this format is far too loose in distinguishing Code S from Code A. Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 01:38 DrakeFZX3 wrote:On December 22 2011 01:28 CosmicSpiral wrote:On December 22 2011 01:13 tree.hugger wrote:On December 22 2011 00:55 CosmicSpiral wrote:On December 22 2011 00:10 bennyaus wrote:
Inca is nowhere near as bad as people are making him out to be. It is Polt and Losira's fault they lost, not his fault that he won. He has shown a new level of play, both in the Korean Weekly, and in his previous Code A match, before this season, against DRG (I thought he played really well vs DRG back then). He is a capable player that may or may not get nerves on stage. No need to shit all over him. The system worked, he beat 2 ex-Code S players in Bo1 and finished 2nd in the Up and Down group, so he goes up to Code S. If you want to complain about a so-called bad player going to Code S, then talking to Losira and Polt and ask them how they lost to Inca, even though they know DT is his trademark, and there are standard timings for turrets/spores. If they are so much better than him, they can afford the slight loss of economy for 100% safety. Similarly, ask Losira how he lost to a 'worse' player in Zenio, despite gaining an advantage in the early game. Don't blame the player who won, blame the one you wanted to win, who lost, as it is his fault. See that's the entire problem with this system. That's not a problem, that's simply how the system works. It doesn't disadvantage good players any more than it disadvantages bad players. Everyone knows what the system is, everyone knows what they need to prepare for, and if you prepare poorly, you'll lose. Your argument isn't borne out by the reality of the games, Zenio beat LosirA and lost to Polt in longer games, he didn't cheese his way through, there's no evidence that LosirA would've suddenly been guaranteed to win the second two games if it were a Bo3. InCa prepared extremely well, do you think if it were a Bo3 he'd somehow be incapable of preparing builds on other maps? Just because the players you think should've advanced didn't don't mean the system is broken. Yesterday there was a group that went exactly as it should've, there wasn't really a single upset. Good players aren't the kind of players who can only win in long series, just as good players aren't the kind of players who can win in only short series. The fact is, good players should be able to win no matter what the circumstances of the tournament are. ...it amuses me with people type long paragraphs about issues I am not talking about, I find it funny rather than refute his argument, you type a single statement that explains nothing. His argument and my argument are completely different. Why should I bother refuting an argument that has nothing to do with my complaint? Maybe tree.hugger should ask me to clarify my position before trying to rip me apart.
If you want your argument to make sense, then go ahead and explain why you think preparing unique/creative/non-macro builds for each game in a series of games is so much more effective for series involving multiple opponents than it is for series involving one opponent. His argument (reasonably) assumes that preparing such builds for each game is equally effective whether facing the same opponent over and over or different opponents. As long as it's unpredictable, it makes no difference.
There could be a problem in formats if Code S gave a random opponent and random map immediately before each match (generally favors standard play) while Up/Down gave that information far in advance (generally favors specifically prepared strategies). But that's not the case.
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Inca's PvZ has always been terrible and 1 more terrible game in a long series of terrible games shouldn't suprise anyone. I'm not excited to see him back and I feel like he hasn't grown at all since he dropped out. His play is exactly the same as it was when he dropped out, and he'll drop out again for exactly the same reasons.
Zenio looked solid in his ZvZ, but I found the rest of the games to be uninspiring at best. I don't see him hanging around in code S either.
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On December 22 2011 02:02 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 01:37 Hassybaby wrote:On December 22 2011 01:28 CosmicSpiral wrote:On December 22 2011 01:13 tree.hugger wrote:On December 22 2011 00:55 CosmicSpiral wrote:On December 22 2011 00:10 bennyaus wrote:
Inca is nowhere near as bad as people are making him out to be. It is Polt and Losira's fault they lost, not his fault that he won. He has shown a new level of play, both in the Korean Weekly, and in his previous Code A match, before this season, against DRG (I thought he played really well vs DRG back then). He is a capable player that may or may not get nerves on stage. No need to shit all over him. The system worked, he beat 2 ex-Code S players in Bo1 and finished 2nd in the Up and Down group, so he goes up to Code S. If you want to complain about a so-called bad player going to Code S, then talking to Losira and Polt and ask them how they lost to Inca, even though they know DT is his trademark, and there are standard timings for turrets/spores. If they are so much better than him, they can afford the slight loss of economy for 100% safety. Similarly, ask Losira how he lost to a 'worse' player in Zenio, despite gaining an advantage in the early game. Don't blame the player who won, blame the one you wanted to win, who lost, as it is his fault. See that's the entire problem with this system. That's not a problem, that's simply how the system works. It doesn't disadvantage good players any more than it disadvantages bad players. Everyone knows what the system is, everyone knows what they need to prepare for, and if you prepare poorly, you'll lose. Your argument isn't borne out by the reality of the games, Zenio beat LosirA and lost to Polt in longer games, he didn't cheese his way through, there's no evidence that LosirA would've suddenly been guaranteed to win the second two games if it were a Bo3. InCa prepared extremely well, do you think if it were a Bo3 he'd somehow be incapable of preparing builds on other maps? Just because the players you think should've advanced didn't don't mean the system is broken. Yesterday there was a group that went exactly as it should've, there wasn't really a single upset. Good players aren't the kind of players who can only win in long series, just as good players aren't the kind of players who can win in only short series. The fact is, good players should be able to win no matter what the circumstances of the tournament are. ...it amuses me with people type long paragraphs about issues I am not talking about, Sorry your one line response wasn't clear enough. He responded to the highlighted part, assumed you meant the problem is the Bo1 format. I do think the BO1 format is a problem, but it's not necessarily because the "better" player will fail to make it out of his group. That happens all the time in BO3, BO5, BO7, etc. because one player outplays the other one. However this format obscures who "deserves" Code S status because it promotes map-specific strategies and generally poor long-term play in combination. While the unorthodox plays have been well-executed for the most part, the macro games have been uniformly terrible with a few exceptions (e.g. Gumiho vs Ryung). I don't know why this is the case but it's happened far too often to be a mere coincidence. In short I think this format is far too loose in distinguishing Code S from Code A. Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 01:38 DrakeFZX3 wrote:On December 22 2011 01:28 CosmicSpiral wrote:On December 22 2011 01:13 tree.hugger wrote:On December 22 2011 00:55 CosmicSpiral wrote:On December 22 2011 00:10 bennyaus wrote:
Inca is nowhere near as bad as people are making him out to be. It is Polt and Losira's fault they lost, not his fault that he won. He has shown a new level of play, both in the Korean Weekly, and in his previous Code A match, before this season, against DRG (I thought he played really well vs DRG back then). He is a capable player that may or may not get nerves on stage. No need to shit all over him. The system worked, he beat 2 ex-Code S players in Bo1 and finished 2nd in the Up and Down group, so he goes up to Code S. If you want to complain about a so-called bad player going to Code S, then talking to Losira and Polt and ask them how they lost to Inca, even though they know DT is his trademark, and there are standard timings for turrets/spores. If they are so much better than him, they can afford the slight loss of economy for 100% safety. Similarly, ask Losira how he lost to a 'worse' player in Zenio, despite gaining an advantage in the early game. Don't blame the player who won, blame the one you wanted to win, who lost, as it is his fault. See that's the entire problem with this system. That's not a problem, that's simply how the system works. It doesn't disadvantage good players any more than it disadvantages bad players. Everyone knows what the system is, everyone knows what they need to prepare for, and if you prepare poorly, you'll lose. Your argument isn't borne out by the reality of the games, Zenio beat LosirA and lost to Polt in longer games, he didn't cheese his way through, there's no evidence that LosirA would've suddenly been guaranteed to win the second two games if it were a Bo3. InCa prepared extremely well, do you think if it were a Bo3 he'd somehow be incapable of preparing builds on other maps? Just because the players you think should've advanced didn't don't mean the system is broken. Yesterday there was a group that went exactly as it should've, there wasn't really a single upset. Good players aren't the kind of players who can only win in long series, just as good players aren't the kind of players who can win in only short series. The fact is, good players should be able to win no matter what the circumstances of the tournament are. ...it amuses me with people type long paragraphs about issues I am not talking about, I find it funny rather than refute his argument, you type a single statement that explains nothing. His argument and my argument are completely different. Why should I bother refuting an argument that has nothing to do with my complaint? Maybe tree.hugger should ask me to clarify my position before trying to rip me apart.
What are you talking about, map-specific strategies is a BIG factor in GSL. For example look at the MMA interview after he beat MVP, he had specifically prepared those all-ins on Bel'shir Beach and Shakuras Plateu, also look at any Ganzi game, he knows where to proxy on every map
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INCA!!
I don't care how the guy wins. If he goes far in Code S, the rage in the LR threads will be more fun to follow than most games.
People are really sensitive about match fixing nowadays. I remember that one EPL team got punished for fielding a team of substitutes against a top team they had no chance against. I guess at some point, not trying hard enough becomes [blurs into] match fixing, especially for people who have a vested interest in seeing competitive games [sponsors, organizers]. You can't eliminate the possibility that he wasn't fully into the last game. And anyone who's lived a day in this world knows you cannot ignore the fact that Inca and Zenio were once friends and teammates.
Benefit of the doubt should be given though. They're Pros, after all. They take pride in what they do, and competition is their world.
Losira and Polt though. Damn. I thought Polt would maraud all over this group.
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Is it even possible to have a round robin where avoiding so called meaningless games is possible?
The whole simul-casting of some persons seems feasible though. If it makes fans feel better about thr games, they should do it.
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On December 22 2011 04:50 Steel wrote:
Inca is in code S, lmao.
Why is that funny when he beat the other two people who would've otherwise made it?
Do you even watch korean weekly or are you just clueless and basing your opinion off what we saw of him months ago?
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37118 Posts
On December 22 2011 03:46 farnham wrote:
SONGAMHUK!
who?
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On December 22 2011 04:56 ffadicted wrote:Why is that funny when he beat the other two people who would've otherwise made it? Do you even watch korean weekly or are you just clueless and basing your opinion off what we saw of him months ago?
I saw him on Korean weekly vs a zerg and he looked AWFUL 
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On December 22 2011 04:56 ffadicted wrote:Why is that funny when he beat the other two people who would've otherwise made it? Do you even watch korean weekly or are you just clueless and basing your opinion off what we saw of him months ago?
To be fair, his two wins were on the back of DT's that his opponents didn't prepare for at all (derp move by Polt and LosirA considering InCa is the DT king) and his two losses were in a macro game against Virus and making a derp move with his wall against Zenio, it was probably the least impressive effort to get out of Up & Downs. People are right when they say that InCa looks exactly like he did in the finals against NesTea, completely one-dimensional and reliant on some gimmicky strats. I wouldn't expect a person like that to last in Code S either.
Zenio's ZvZ against LosirA looked really good, but his ZvT still seems sloppy and we didn't really get to see his ZvP.
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Damn, I wanted Polt to advance
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GJ to Zenio and InCa, though I doubt their staying power in Code S.
That said, I hope Clide makes it out on Friday. That way we get to see a group of MC, Clide, Zenio and IdrA. :D
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EPT
