On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
YES IT IS
You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third.
Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese.
Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas.
Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening.
Don't bring Protoss in here. They qq b/c they're actually losing left and right. IdrA fanboys and him bm'ed the hell outta everyone even when Zerg and IdrA winning right and left. Totally different.
Umm... Huk didn't just win MLG, did he? With MC in 2nd?
Look at Code A Tosses right now.... lmao.
This isn't 1 month ago.
Really don't wanna argue with you about this to off topic. Just look at the bigger picture and figure yourself.
Agreed, I really don't think HuK winning orlando is very representative of the current state of balance. He had group with all protosses + July. His winners bracket games did not have very good showings from either terrans. On the other hand, MCs run through the lower bracket was pretty impressive.
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet.
Fair enough, actually. This is the part where it's annoying because my opinion sort of differs from yours, but yeah. I'll actually give you this one. Sorry if I seemed rabid at some point during the discussion.
my point was that until both kas and idra play bo7s with 20 random top players from all race and eachother and enter the same tournaments, there is no way to prove idra is better, especially since they play different races. idra has more major success, everyone knows that.
kas' achievements are not as major but good none the less, he wins a lesser tournament every week or so and makes 300-500 euros this way, which is probably better for him cuz he is from ukraine where that money is really good and probably empire doesn't even give a salary while EG gives money/tickets everything to idra.
they're different players, Idra has huge lan experience, Kas has nerve problems, and they didn't prove themselves at equal conditions repeatedly for a large enough sample size to tell which of the 2 is better. i find it a bit annoying that a lot of people write these online heroes off, because you know Stephano is one too who who won more money in 2 weeks than idra in his whole sc2 career, and Nerchio is one too, who is 4-0 vs idra and consistently beats very top players who have a good record against idra- but people say nooo idra is 100 times better! there is no real evidence and it's disrespectful to these players.
it's like saying if i can lift 3000 kilos i'm not the strongest man in the world until i do it in front of a large audience, which is silly, cuz obviously i'm the strongest anyway, just don't have a paper of it. you can have your opinion that idra is better, but if you think i'm stupid if i have a different one, when there is no bloody evidence, that's not clever and nice.
On November 14 2011 12:19 MountainDewJunkie wrote: I thought Idra was far more professional in the last few months as a player. Professional/mannered/respectful, is what I'm getting at.
Then this happens.
You want to like Idra, you really do, but man he makes it too hard...
I think this kind of behaviour has become his business model. Would be dumb to change it.
First: It's EG's own fault with letting Axslav and Incontrol playing, Demuslim, Huk or even Machine would have been better choices. Second: Xeris, learn to update the results or at least put a link to Liquipedia. Damn it. Third: Great tournament. There need to be more teamleagues in the foreigner scene.
On November 14 2011 16:31 SkyTheUnknown wrote: First: It's EG's own fault with letting Axslav and Incontrol playing, Demuslim, Huk or even Machine would have been better choices. Second: Xeris, learn to update the results or at least put a link to Liquipedia. Damn it. Third: Great tournament. There need to be more teamleagues in the foreigner scene.
Maybe not more, but longer/more exciting, perhaps a 16 team tournament, with the top foreignteams: mTw, aTn, Fnatic, Liquid, EG, Quantic, Gosu, Mouz, Empire, Dignitas, Millenium, Na'Vi, complexity, Sixjay, VT, eSuba, Acer, etc.
15 playweeks,
after that play offs with the top 4/8 teams.
Prolly there will be way too much discussion when there are 16 teams, so invite 12 teams, and do a qualification tourney for the last 4 teams.
wow probably the weakest of the 4 remaining teams and yet empire still managed to win
all these people saying HuK and demuslim should have played instead are retarded. If they were able to play they would have HuK cant always find the time, plus being in KR doesnt help. And demuslim was away at the time iirc
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
how do u measure level of play if not by achievements? lol? if you win -> u get achievements -> u are a good player
bottom line. the more achievements -> the better player you are.
e.g Roger Federer has 100000000000 tournaments, the more grand slams, etc. -> best player in fkn history. Nadal beats Federer a lot. doesnt matter.. Federer is still the best player in fkn history because he has the more achievements.
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
how do u measure level of play if not by achievements? lol? if you win -> u get achievements -> u are a good player
bottom line. the more achievements -> the better player you are.
e.g Roger Federer has 100000000000 tournaments, the more grand slams, etc. -> best player in fkn history. Nadal beats Federer a lot. doesnt matter.. Federer is still the best player in fkn history because he has the more achievements.
Well, I think that Federer is also considerd the best because of his style, while Nadal just has a lot of raw power in his play.
Congratulations to team Empire and to Kas for beating EG and idra.
For those complaiting about Kas play style, seriously you don't expect someone to be able to defend against so many helions with a dozen of zergling and a couple of queens.
That was poor play from idra. no proper scout, no roaches, and yet he managed to BM Kas.. lololol
EPT
