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On November 14 2011 07:18 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 07:14 K3Nyy wrote:On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote:
So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead... It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting. Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest. YES IT IS You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third. Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese.
Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas.
Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening.
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Know your player is greedy? Punish it? Win game?
DOESNT MATTER YOU CHEESY NOOB
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On November 14 2011 07:32 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 07:28 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:26 AIOL! wrote:On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote:
kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me. I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2) How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now? achievements =/= level of play it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performanceidra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world when he hasn't at LANs sort of tells another story.
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On November 14 2011 07:41 KvltMan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 07:32 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 07:28 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:26 AIOL! wrote:On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote:
kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me. I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2) How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now? achievements =/= level of play it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performanceidra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
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On November 14 2011 07:42 Deckkie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 07:41 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:32 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 07:28 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:26 AIOL! wrote:On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote:
kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me. I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2) How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now? achievements =/= level of play it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performanceidra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot. your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
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On November 14 2011 07:36 KvltMan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 07:31 AIOL! wrote:On November 14 2011 07:28 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:26 AIOL! wrote:On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote:
kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me. I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2) How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now? Did not kas 4-0ed Nada?  And GoOdy/Adelscott beat NesTea/MVP too, do you honestly think that they are the better players? Though I will admit that Kas was prolly better then NaDa back then. But look, I like Kas a lot, he is my favorite terran streamer after GosiTerran, but really? Kas does not even come close to IdrA's tournament success, and it seems quite delusional to say that he is "more solid" because he cranks out so many ladder games.
Kas @ LAN is not kas, he is a random top20 EU terran. So we dont talk about the same kas ( my kas is the online monster, the most succesfull online player of all time behind nerchio)
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On November 14 2011 07:43 KvltMan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 07:42 Deckkie wrote:On November 14 2011 07:41 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:32 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 07:28 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:26 AIOL! wrote:On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote:
kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me. I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2) How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now? achievements =/= level of play it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performanceidra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot. your " imo" proofs his point. Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet.
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Russian Federation51 Posts
I like how people talk about who "deserved" or "didn't deserve" to win. Come on, this is a sport! Things can go not as planned, supposed, should, blah-blah-blah. You dont have to be stronger overall to win, you just have to be stronger at this particular moment! This (not knowing the outcome of the game) is one of the things that makes watching any sport exciting, isn't it?
Idra has been performing extremely recently and I wont believe that in his successful, long runs he hasnt dealt with mass hellion harass. So really, just cut it. He had a good chance to win, and he lost. Dont let his emotions cloud your mind. Besides, do you, all Idra fans out there, really think that the "I'm going to win, when all the conditions I want are present" is a champion's mentality? Or do you treat your idol like a whimsical child, who cant control his emotions? I surely think that EGIdra, the amazing players that he is, certainly deserves better. Btw, referring you to a beautiful article here, on TL, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226236 for some idea about what a winner, a champion, actually, looks like.
Also, I like how some pros say that Sc2 is a new and rapidly changing game, so all the players in the world (including Nestea, Mvp and the likes) SUCK at it atm. There is sooooo much more to learn and explore about the game, that everyone has to improve vigorously and constantly, otherwise they are risking to be left over the side in a snap! New strat has appeared. Haven't seen, haven't prepared? Cya!
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results someone? There's nothing in the OP
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Switzerland2892 Posts
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On November 14 2011 07:43 KvltMan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 07:42 Deckkie wrote:On November 14 2011 07:41 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:32 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 07:28 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:26 AIOL! wrote:On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote:
kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me. I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2) How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now? achievements =/= level of play it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performanceidra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot. your " imo" proofs his point. Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Arnt all these things outside factors that can influence someones game?
Meaning that instead of it giving the best tool for measurement it gives a scewed tool for measurement.
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On November 14 2011 07:46 norlock wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 07:43 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:42 Deckkie wrote:On November 14 2011 07:41 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:32 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 07:28 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:26 AIOL! wrote:On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote:
kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me. I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2) How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now? achievements =/= level of play it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performanceidra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot. your " imo" proofs his point. Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough? Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet.
Fair enough, actually. This is the part where it's annoying because my opinion sort of differs from yours, but yeah. I'll actually give you this one. Sorry if I seemed rabid at some point during the discussion.
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On November 14 2011 07:39 norlock wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 07:18 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 14 2011 07:14 K3Nyy wrote:On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote:
So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead... It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting. Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest. YES IT IS You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third. Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese. Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas. Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening.
You're stupid because in my FIRST post in this thread I congratulated Kas for winning.
How does Idra not playing safe make my argument invalid....? No decent Terran is going to let you scout his 2nd fact unless you get a lucky OL scout. So you have to guess if he's going eco or not.
After Reactor Hellion, Terran can go 2 fact hellion, 1 fact 3rd OC, or 2 fact siege edit: or hellion maurauder all in. What Idra did covers the latter three while still maintaining econ and getting Lair fast enough to deal with specific pre muta pushes.
You obviously don't understand the match up at all, you're just happy to see Idra lose like everyone else bashing him in this thread. If Idra was as well mannered as Sheth, EVERYONE in this thread would be saying, "OMG, STUPID CHEESE KAS IDRA IS STILL BETTER" but instead, because TLers are so quick to confuse personality bias with game play, we have "LOLOLOL IDRA BM NOOB L2SCOUT".
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On November 14 2011 07:51 Deckkie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 07:43 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:42 Deckkie wrote:On November 14 2011 07:41 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:32 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 07:28 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:26 AIOL! wrote:On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote:
kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me. I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2) How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now? achievements =/= level of play it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performanceidra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot. your " imo" proofs his point. Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough? Arnt all these things outside factors that can influence someones game? Meaning that instead of it giving the best tool for measurement it gives a scewed tool for measurement.
I was thinking more that a player that faces players of equal, or higher, skill and coming out ahead at a LAN sort of dictates who is the better player. But as I wrote to the other guy, it's prolly a bad way of measuring skill as it just shows that some players just thrive in different enviroments.
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On November 14 2011 07:39 norlock wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 07:18 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 14 2011 07:14 K3Nyy wrote:On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote:
So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead... It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting. Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest. YES IT IS You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third. Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese. Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas. Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening.
Getting 2 reactor facts early isn't cheesy in the slightest. It doesn't put you behind in any way even if you don't do enough damage . If you don't suicide the hellions in just for the chance of some drone kills, you can deny creep tumors while keeping map control with the hellions, and then when you switch over to marine/tanks production the hellions are a great addition scouting ahead, protecting flanks and killing lings.
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On November 14 2011 07:52 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 07:39 norlock wrote:On November 14 2011 07:18 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 14 2011 07:14 K3Nyy wrote:On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote:
So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead... It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting. Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest. YES IT IS You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third. Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese. Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas. Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening. You're stupid because in my FIRST post in this thread I congratulated Kas for winning. How does Idra not playing safe make my argument invalid....? No decent Terran is going to let you scout his 2nd fact unless you get a lucky OL scout. So you have to guess if he's going eco or not. After Reactor Hellion, Terran can go 2 fact hellion, 1 fact 3rd OC, or 2 fact siege. What Idra did covers the latter two while still maintaining econ and getting Lair fast enough to deal with specific pre muta pushes. You obviously don't understand the match up at all, you're just happy to see Idra lose like everyone else bashing him in this thread. If Idra was as well mannered as Sheth, EVERYONE in this thread would be saying, "OMG, STUPID CHEESE KAS IDRA IS STILL BETTER" but instead, because TLers are so quick to confuse personality bias with game play, we have "LOLOLOL IDRA BM NOOB L2SCOUT".
Dont think it has anything to do with IdrA his BM.
Think it has more to do with the IdrA vs Stephano argument.
The second Stephano lost yesterday the chat thread was full with people screaming that Stephano was overrated and that everybody who liked Stephano should stfu.
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Roaches are not a viable option here. Just look at DRG v. IMHappy in the GSL Nov. round of 32. + Show Spoiler + IMHappy went mass hellion opener and DRG saw more than 6 hellions and built a roach warren. He stopped the hellions from harassing but was unable to transition into anything that could stop Happy's push that followed. Happy transitioned into pure mech adding on tanks and thors and rolled over DRG. Im not saying this is imba so dont troll. But it is very hard to stop hellion openers with lings and very hard to transition out of roaches in time to stop the terran follow up.
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On November 14 2011 07:55 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 07:39 norlock wrote:On November 14 2011 07:18 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 14 2011 07:14 K3Nyy wrote:On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote:
So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead... It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting. Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest. YES IT IS You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third. Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese. Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas. Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening. Getting 2 reactor facts early isn't cheesy in the slightest. It doesn't put you behind in any way even if you don't do enough damage . If you don't suicide the hellions in just for the chance of some drone kills, you can deny creep tumors while keeping map control with the hellions, and then when you switch over to marine/tanks production the hellions are a great addition scouting ahead, protecting flanks and killing lings.
Yes
It
Is
You cannot tech fast enough to stop midgame Zerg tech if all your hellions do is deny creep tumors. You are forced to go for some sort of delayed mech or marine tank hellion 2 base all in. PLEASE show me 1 replay that exists of a Terran opening 2 fact hellion and NOT doing any damage, then winning in the mid game.
Please.
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On November 14 2011 07:55 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 07:39 norlock wrote:On November 14 2011 07:18 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 14 2011 07:14 K3Nyy wrote:On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote:
So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead... It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting. Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest. YES IT IS You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third. Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese. Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas. Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening. Getting 2 reactor facts early isn't cheesy in the slightest. It doesn't put you behind in any way even if you don't do enough damage . If you don't suicide the hellions in just for the chance of some drone kills, you can deny creep tumors while keeping map control with the hellions, and then when you switch over to marine/tanks production the hellions are a great addition scouting ahead, protecting flanks and killing lings.
Because 16hellions will help you against 10 mutas that pop at 11 minutes?
and because you made 16 hellions instead of marines now u cant take the 3rd base because of mutas, get real, it's alliny as hell.
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EPT
