It's that time again... you thought I forgot? Nope! After a hectic October, it's finally time to start the GCPL Playoffs! Last season, FnaticMSI took down Dignitas in a thrilling series to win the $7,000 first prize. This season... four teams: EG, Liquid, Empire, and Mouz will be fighting for $5,000 in cash!
If you want to re-live the regular season, check out GosuCoaching.com, or this thread on TL. The VODs for this season can be found on our TwitchTV page!
EG took down Liquid in the semi final match, and Empire shocked everyone by beating Mouz, now we have a true David vs Goliath story in the Grand Finals... the teams are battling for $3,000 for the winner, and $1,500 for the loser. Who will take home the win and be crowned champion? Find out!
Well, I can always hope Puma and IdrA both own it up, which is fairly likely, but jeez... seems like I have no faith in Incontroll or axslav, please prove me wrong guys. >.>
putting in incontrol over huk/demuslim? very risky maneuver... woudla said with huk puma idra demu/axslav that they could win this pretty convincingly... inc/axslav is odd choice for league finals
I really look forward to the day when there are team leagues out there that will have enough incentive to get teams to actually consistently play their A-team ;/. (Same as EGMC finals weekend --
On November 12 2011 15:01 RyanRushia wrote: putting in incontrol over huk/demuslim? very risky maneuver... woudla said with huk puma idra demu/axslav that they could win this pretty convincingly... inc/axslav is odd choice for league finals
Huk and Demuslim probably weren't available when this was played.
Its going to come down to the idra vs kas. if idra wins eg wins, if kas wins then empire wins. i hope incontrol proves me wrong though. i love that guy, hes awesome!
On November 12 2011 15:48 iNcontroL wrote: huk can't play all the time from korea demuslim is in england
We can't always have our top lineups... part of the problem with having our guys traveling the world etc.
don't let haters bring you down, you're a fcking pro gamer. Go stomp some face, EG FIGHTING
Yah I am pretty sure for every hater that Incontrol has he has a ton of fans to go with it that feel he is awesome either way Pricks are just always very loud in the online world.
On November 13 2011 18:15 Belisarius wrote: Forgive me for my ignorance of the foreign scene's less visible players, but I assume this happy is not IM's second-best Terran on loan?
Interesting that HuK's not in the lineup. Something else on?
nope. Its ex WC3 EG player ^^.
PS.
Xeris does it again... He really must hate empire and its players.
I think u all shouldn't count happy out! He's a very solid player and he can win his games vs. puma! + Easy Game for BeastyQT so it will probably end 3:1 for Empire!
On November 13 2011 19:40 I3lackout wrote: I think u all shouldn't count happy out! He's a very solid player and he can win his games vs. puma! + Easy Game for BeastyQT so it will probably end 3:1 for Empire!
Happy is good, but I woud not put him above a Korean that's defeated Polt in a TvT.
I think Incontrol has a good chance against Beastyqt. TvP is beastys worst matchup... could be close. Rest is gonna be really close... IdrA vs. Kas is going to be awesome!
If incontrol goes 2 base aggressive timing vs Beastyqt, he should have a good chance at winning. Can't see him winning a macro game. Would like to be wrong though.
I'm actually seeing it going to EG with a score of 3-1. With Beastyqt taking his series for Empire, simply because he is so good looking. And I'm a straight guy.
For everyone that rated Kas over Idra, i want you to look at Idra's recent ZvT result and tell me that at the very least, idra is not slightly favoured. And also, in Battle in Berlin, i believed Kas was 2-0ed by Ret, and i won't rate Ret's ZvT over Idra's. So sorry for smashing your dream.
Unless HuK and DeMusliM cannot play for a specific reason, I hope EG loses for not putting in their top lineup...... If there is something getting in their way, then I hope EG will pull through.
On November 14 2011 00:23 TolEranceNA wrote: For everyone that rated Kas over Idra, i want you to look at Idra's recent ZvT result and tell me that at the very least, idra is not slightly favoured. And also, in Battle in Berlin, i believed Kas was 2-0ed by Ret, and i won't rate Ret's ZvT over Idra's. So sorry for smashing your dream.
Agreed, IdrA's ZvT is among the best in the world, hard to imagine Kas taking the series.
On November 14 2011 00:29 Shinta) wrote: Unless HuK and DeMusliM cannot play for a specific reason, I hope EG loses for not putting in their top lineup...... If there is something getting in their way, then I hope EG will pull through.
From first page:
On November 12 2011 15:48 iNcontroL wrote: huk can't play all the time from korea demuslim is in england
We can't always have our top lineups... part of the problem with having our guys traveling the world etc.
On November 14 2011 00:23 TolEranceNA wrote: For everyone that rated Kas over Idra, i want you to look at Idra's recent ZvT result and tell me that at the very least, idra is not slightly favoured. And also, in Battle in Berlin, i believed Kas was 2-0ed by Ret, and i won't rate Ret's ZvT over Idra's. So sorry for smashing your dream.
Good job ignoring the fact that Kas 2-0ed Idra last time they met in the EG teamleague (and it wasn't very close tbh). Also Kas traditionally underperforms on LANs, but plays amazing online. It's possible that this goes either way, but "smashing dreams" by leaving out the most important fact (the result of their last match) is certainly a good talent toi have.
Couldn't Demuslim play from England? Anway, it sucks that EG couldn't play their top lineup, I think they would steam roll if they could. As it is, I think Empire could take it, Kas has to beat Idra and they win imo.
On November 14 2011 01:46 MCDayC wrote: Couldn't Demuslim play from England? Anway, it sucks that EG couldn't play their top lineup, I think they would steam roll if they could. As it is, I think Empire could take it, Kas has to beat Idra and they win imo.
Yeah the reason given for Demuslim not playing is pretty funny (he is in England). As if they have no internet there. :D
Seems like Demuslim has taken a break from sc2 after his IPL3 loss. I might be mistaken, but I think he has not played a single game since then on his EGDemuslim accounts.
On November 14 2011 01:46 MCDayC wrote: Couldn't Demuslim play from England? Anway, it sucks that EG couldn't play their top lineup, I think they would steam roll if they could. As it is, I think Empire could take it, Kas has to beat Idra and they win imo.
Yeah the reason given for Demuslim not playing is pretty funny (he is in England). As if they have no internet there. :D
Seems like Demuslim has taken a break from sc2 after his IPL3 loss. I might be mistaken, but I think he has not played a single game since then on his EGDemuslim accounts.
He is currently devoting said time in England with his gf. He's probably playing on some smurf, or something, because he will be partaking in the IPL4 UK qualifiers. But I think that he wanted to spend this time with his gf before he goes to Korea in December.
that was a really, really poor engagement decision from puma to unsiege against 2 thors t.t his macro should be able to rectify it though, regardless, happy is playing really, really well
Why is the grand finals of the GCPL being commentated solo by a guy who spends half his time repeating himself and the other half of the time trying to pre-emptively insult himself so the stream doesn't get to? So confused!
On November 14 2011 02:56 Fandango wrote: Why is the grand finals of the GCPL being commentated solo by a guy who spends half his time repeating himself and the other half of the time trying to pre-emptively insult himself so the stream doesn't get to? So confused!
On November 14 2011 02:56 Fandango wrote: Why is the grand finals of the GCPL being commentated solo by a guy who spends half his time repeating himself and the other half of the time trying to pre-emptively insult himself so the stream doesn't get to? So confused!
Doa should have made him company. Or maybe he's too busy with other stuff?
He's an ok caster most of the time, but watching his stream hurts my eyes and I have no idea why, like he's streaming at a low frame rate or something. Am I the only getting this issue? It doesn't happen on other streams.
Puma attacking with unsieged tanks into thors + a siege tank after he won the first big fight in the center really screwed him over. He lost like 6-7 tanks to kill 2 thors and 1 siege tank. Gave up his supply lead/tank lead/ and control of the mid.
On November 14 2011 02:56 Fandango wrote: Why is the grand finals of the GCPL being commentated solo by a guy who spends half his time repeating himself and the other half of the time trying to pre-emptively insult himself so the stream doesn't get to? So confused!
Doa should have made him company. Or maybe he's too busy with other stuff?
But then we'd have two people repeating what the current dude says!
On November 14 2011 03:06 Dexington wrote: TvT is so boring.
It's the Map thats to blame play on a Map like Shakuras , Crossfire , Metalopolis where it's easy to split the Map making it hard to engage and this will happen. You can't just directly engage against a Siege line with Terran not even with Air since Terran-Air is pretty easy to kill off.
On November 14 2011 03:13 Topdoller wrote: TvT's should be played on maps like Steps of War, 53 min game was painful to watch,
TvT on Steps was a pain as well big Siege Line in the Middle of the Map and not too many attack paths. Steps wasn't big from base to base but was pretty wide and had a buttload of expands.
Thought Puma was dead after late factory and no scout. Combat shield first seems really good vs that. It's probably why all Terrans in gsl get combat shields first vs Terran.
If Beasty had just waited in his main for a couple of minutes before taking his nat after causing all that damage, he would have a big lead instead of being dead.
On November 14 2011 03:56 hewley wrote: I wasn't watching for a minute when Beasty camped incontrol's ramp. Now its the other way around, what happened in between?
He moved up, caused a bunch of damage, then tried to take his nat despite having a harvester lead and an army deficit, and incontrol countered.
On November 14 2011 03:56 hewley wrote: I wasn't watching for a minute when Beasty camped incontrol's ramp. Now its the other way around, what happened in between?
He moved up, caused a bunch of damage, then tried to take his nat despite having a harvester lead and an army deficit, and incontrol countered.
Ah ok ,thx for the response. =) Well, looks like Beasty is in the lead again. =>Weird Game.
Micro wars is incredibly easy as T with marine,marauder, medivac... Donno what incontrol is doing other than throwing the game by attacking repeatedly and cutting workers when he was ahead so much.
I'm sorry to say this, but if Beasty was against any other player in that position, he would have gg-ed, instead he waited for a dumb mistake and he received it ... InControl, you can do so much better
On November 14 2011 04:00 Zzoram wrote: iNcontroL's win rate the past 6 months has been like 5%
very optimistic.
i really appreciate all the great things incontrol has done for the community and still does, but i think he should start to let sink in the thought that he is not made for a career as a player. he is probably better off just staying in the community as a caster and organizer of events. this is not intended as player bashing, but come on, seriously?
I don't understand why iNcontroL is playing so terribly. We've seen some much superior play out of him in the past. I hope those games were played a long time ago or something, otherwise it doesn't look good for Providence.
On November 14 2011 03:53 Micket wrote: Why does incontrol neveer have any units? Bit disappointed. He even scouted the 2 rax.
I don't think he scouted the 2rax. He scouted the reactored barracks and assumed a 1/1/1.
Beastyqt may have lost the game. 1 gate stargate vs 2 rax and he...retreats. -_-
If incontrol thinks that is the timing for the reactor in a 1/1/1 build, I don't know what to say. This game is so sloppy lol.
Maybe. Either that or he thought Beasty was going for some hellion play, which would explain why he delayed sentry production and made stalkers. Or maybe he believed it was a reactored barracks expand, and was making stalkers to pressure. I don't know. *confused*
On November 14 2011 04:00 n00b3rt wrote: I'm sorry to say this, but if Beasty was against any other player in that position, he would have gg-ed, instead he waited for a dumb mistake and he received it ... InControl, you can do so much better
On November 14 2011 04:03 Thrax wrote: I don't understand why iNcontroL is playing so terribly. We've seen some much superior play out of him in the past. I hope those games were played a long time ago or something, otherwise it doesn't look good for Providence.
I don't think its been looking good for Providence if your an Incontrol fan for a loooong time.
Disappointed in Incontrol his all-in kill so many workers he had like 20 workers to 3 scvs? Why not expand?Opponent have like medivacs out and you cant deal with that with gathway units. Incontrol just played like crap frankly speaking incontrol is bad what happen to him saying hes practicing very hard?
My goodness that was disappointing. I certainly feel bad for Incontrol. He puts in so much time in effort into helping Esports, and serves as a leader for Team EG, but watching him play was just frustrating. On one hand I admire the fact that he keeps at progaming, despite all of the haters, but on the other hand I feel that he may be past his prime.
He's won some Maps but hasn't won a single BoX .... . I really like Incontrol but damn he just keep losing while playing extremely bad as well ...
There's a few series wins in there. White Ra in NASL1, Drewbie, TLO, Haypro in various MLG's, and a bunch of random small tournaments against people I don't know.
On November 14 2011 04:00 n00b3rt wrote: I'm sorry to say this, but if Beasty was against any other player in that position, he would have gg-ed, instead he waited for a dumb mistake and he received it ... InControl, you can do so much better
I really dont think he can
I don't even understand how you can do what he did and think it's a good decision. I mean, he was trading cost effectively for a while, then he faced a wall off and a bunker...he attacked anyway.
I don't understand how a 'pro' gamer can have such poor decision making.
On November 14 2011 04:06 Bagration wrote: My goodness that was disappointing. I certainly feel bad for Incontrol. He puts in so much time in effort into helping Esports, and serves as a leader for Team EG, but watching him play was just frustrating. On one hand I admire the fact that he keeps at progaming, despite all of the haters, but on the other hand I feel that he may be past his prime.
I don't "hate" him, but tournaments like MLG will only stay at the top level by having top players competing. Having someone who can't win a Bo3 seeded into pool play is crazy.
He's won some Maps but hasn't won a single BoX .... . I really like Incontrol but damn he just keep losing while playing extremely bad as well ...
There's a few series wins in there. White Ra in NASL1, Drewbie, TLO, Haypro in various MLG's, and a bunch of random small tournaments against people I don't know.
Yeah i know i just looked at the first page. Last time he won a televied BoX Series against someone notworthy though was more then 2 months ago.
I must say, that is absolutely humiliating how badly Kas microed in that situation. Three banelings don't deserve to kill that many marines, unless you go AFK.
On November 14 2011 04:18 gulati wrote: I must say, that is absolutely humiliating how badly Kas microed in that situation. Three banelings don't deserve to kill that many marines, unless you go AFK.
Kas fucked that all-in badly. He was too hastily trying to push into idra natural when siege mode was 3/4 complete. He should have waited and it could have went differently but Idra caught on that all-in quickly and react quite apprioriately .
It's funny how XNC was once considered the most balanced map and people were saying that SC2 maps didn't need to be bigger than it. Metalopolis still seems to trundle along though.
On November 14 2011 04:40 Fandango wrote: It's funny how XNC was once considered the most balanced map and people were saying that SC2 maps didn't need to be bigger than it. Metalopolis still seems to trundle along though.
It was a good map under the standards of beta maps (which included gems like Steppes of War, Blistering Sands, Kulas Ravine, etc).
On November 14 2011 04:45 Riyomori wrote: can these guys start talking about the game instead of damn zombie invasions?
Seconded.
Agreed. It's a little stupid. They didn't say anything about IdrA being a bit agressive at the start slowing down construction of CC and a depot, kills 2 SCVs.
On November 14 2011 04:48 clusen wrote: Who is the caster that is not Sheth?
Axeltoss. He is a decent caster - good voice, good knowledge. At times just can't seem to stay on topic which is really annoying. (and not just because of the zombie discussion)
On November 14 2011 04:59 foxmeep wrote: wtf is the point of elevator... instead of throwing away his units and wasting time Kas could have literally A-moved and rolled Idra
Not really lol there were 6 infestors, good amount of lings and a few banes with a good amount of muta's. A move into that and you might as well type gg.
kas fucked up when idra first attacked him, he didnt split rines or siege tanks, he just left rines bunched up and let everything get fungalled wtf was that
Wow, Idra handled that game very well. His ZvT has improved drastically these past months, probably due to Puma joining EG and Demuslim improving (also probably a result of Puma joining EG).
On November 14 2011 05:06 HeavenS wrote: kas fucked up when idra first attacked him, he didnt split rines or siege tanks, he just left rines bunched up and let everything get fungalled wtf was that
Kas has never had amazing micro, just solid solid macro.
Unfortuneately, against guys like Idra that usually won't be neough
On November 14 2011 05:07 Bagration wrote: Wow, Idra handled that game very well. His ZvT has improved drastically these past months, probably due to Puma joining EG and Demuslim improving (also probably a result of Puma joining EG).
His ZvT has always been his strong point, just his overall play has risen (his performance in all three matchups is a lot better than 4 months ago)
Idra was in pretty good shape when Kas went for the 16 marine drop and did no damage.
I still think Kas was in a great position to win that game, but he didn't advance his siege tanks at all. TvZ is all about timing, and Idra managed to buy himself enough time for his eco/hive tech to kick in.
On November 14 2011 05:07 Bagration wrote: Wow, Idra handled that game very well. His ZvT has improved drastically these past months, probably due to Puma joining EG and Demuslim improving (also probably a result of Puma joining EG).
His ZvT has always been his strong point, just his overall play has risen (his performance in all three matchups is a lot better than 4 months ago)
Idra was in pretty good shape when Kas went for the 16 marine drop and did no damage.
Don't know why Kas didn't drop 1/2 on low, 1/2 on high... it would have done some damage since all Idra had was ling/bane and no spine on the cliff.
On November 14 2011 05:07 Bagration wrote: Wow, Idra handled that game very well. His ZvT has improved drastically these past months, probably due to Puma joining EG and Demuslim improving (also probably a result of Puma joining EG).
His ZvT has always been his strong point, just his overall play has risen (his performance in all three matchups is a lot better than 4 months ago)
Idra was in pretty good shape when Kas went for the 16 marine drop and did no damage.
Kas also forgot to target blings with his tanks during his first push, way too many blings connected
On November 14 2011 05:06 Orome wrote: Ugh, if tournaments want to keep loser picks map, they really need to think more about their map pool.
I hope you mean xel naga caverns because terrans in the clockwise position of zerg on Tal'Darim tend to do pretty well. To be honest i'm surprised IdrA didn't go for Metalopolis.
Agh, I think EG's got it, with either Idra or Puma playing again. Dunno about this format, you basically only need 2 very good players to pull an entire team. :-/
On November 14 2011 05:14 JustPassingBy wrote: Agh, I think EG's got it, with either Idra or Puma playing again. Dunno about this format, you basically only need 2 very good players to pull an entire team. :-/
Most teams excluding Korean team only have around 2 very good players. If you make it so you need more there's going to be less exciting series imo.
On November 14 2011 05:14 JustPassingBy wrote: Agh, I think EG's got it, with either Idra or Puma playing again. Dunno about this format, you basically only need 2 very good players to pull an entire team. :-/
What format would you prefer? The GSTL All-Kill format where you could theoretically get by with only one exceptional player?
On November 14 2011 05:14 JustPassingBy wrote: Agh, I think EG's got it, with either Idra or Puma playing again. Dunno about this format, you basically only need 2 very good players to pull an entire team. :-/
Um, what?
You act like good players never lose. Puma's lost in these team matches before. Kas has beaten Idra before. Stop making excuses when the team you want to win isn't winning, especially when the tournament's not even over yet.
On November 14 2011 05:14 JustPassingBy wrote: Agh, I think EG's got it, with either Idra or Puma playing again. Dunno about this format, you basically only need 2 very good players to pull an entire team. :-/
Um, what?
You act like good players never lose. Puma's lost in these team matches before. Kas has beaten Idra before. Stop making excuses when the team you want to win isn't winning, especially when the tournament's not even over yet.
Also it's not like Empire is streaming with talent: EG isn't even playing HuK/DeMuslim, and Empire has Aristeo playing, who, while a decent player, isn't exactly world-blowing.
On November 14 2011 05:14 JustPassingBy wrote: Agh, I think EG's got it, with either Idra or Puma playing again. Dunno about this format, you basically only need 2 very good players to pull an entire team. :-/
What format would you prefer? The GSTL All-Kill format where you could theoretically get by with only one exceptional player?
Lol exactly.
Not bashing DRG here, he's my second favorite player in the world behind Idra, but look at the GTSL matches with MVP in the past before they started all getting better:
Opposing team plays very well and takes first 3 games.
Well, maybe I'm just frustrated that a well rounded team is losing to a team with two champions pulling it. Always rooting for the underdog in this constellation. :-)
On November 14 2011 05:38 JustPassingBy wrote: Well, maybe I'm just frustrated that a well rounded team is losing to a team with two champions pulling it. Always rooting for the underdog in this constellation. :-)
EG is pretty well rounded. Huk and DeMuslim just weren't available for this match.
On November 14 2011 05:38 JustPassingBy wrote: Well, maybe I'm just frustrated that a well rounded team is losing to a team with two champions pulling it. Always rooting for the underdog in this constellation. :-)
Too be fair, EG is just as well rounded, they are just lacking half of their good players today
And I mean, Empire is basically Happy, Kas, and Beasty. I wouldn't call that any more well rounded than the other teams in this tourney
On November 14 2011 05:38 JustPassingBy wrote: Well, maybe I'm just frustrated that a well rounded team is losing to a team with two champions pulling it. Always rooting for the underdog in this constellation. :-)
EG is pretty well rounded. Huk and DeMuslim just weren't available for this match.
I was a bit psyched when it was said that Sheth was going to co-cast, but I think it turned out to the worse. He's like that goofy kid in class that demoralizes the others. This is serious business! :p
It seems like HuK is the obvious choice for an ace match for EG. Empire is probably going to throw kas in there again because he's their best player, or at least that's my guess.
On November 14 2011 05:58 Chewbacca. wrote: I can't believe Protoss don't scout their base after doing a pylon wall off...nydus is the response like 90% of the time.
Exactly this lol. I am very surprised nydus actually worked at this level.
Puma's probably coming out, but I would love it for Idra to be played as the ace. Gladheateher is DeMuslim's old euro smurf account, he played on it when he lived with Rotti.
On November 14 2011 06:05 MCDayC wrote: Quite nice to see EG have faith in Idra over Puma.
Yeah, but not surprising. Idra and Huk are in the top tier of players in the whole world. I don't get why Incontrol was sent out, no offense he's a great guy, but hasn't really showed any results lately..
He's a grumpy little man but I suppose that's what makes him unique. I'm not keen on him myself but I can see why other people like him, he's the "bad boy" of sc2.
On November 14 2011 06:13 Cosmology wrote: LOL I love all the people bitching about IdrA being BM. Total hypocrites and they don't even realise it, it's so sad.
On November 14 2011 06:14 Pirat6662001 wrote: Casters are kinda showing american knowledge, Russia is 50% of European continent. And apparently Europe is a country now
On November 14 2011 06:13 Cosmology wrote: LOL I love all the people bitching about IdrA being BM. Total hypocrites and they don't even realise it, it's so sad.
On November 14 2011 06:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I wish that EG had been able to use their best line-up (Puma, HuK, IdrA, Demuslim); I really don't see how it would have gone to an ace match.
It would have been cool with some valid reasoning as to why Demuslim at least couldn't play, "he is in england". What? Is that another way to say he's been doing jackshit for the last 4 weeks with his GF?
On November 14 2011 06:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I wish that EG had been able to use their best line-up (Puma, HuK, IdrA, Demuslim); I really don't see how it would have gone to an ace match.
It would have been cool with some valid reasoning as to why Demuslim at least couldn't play, "he is in england". What? Is that another way to say he's been doing jackshit for the last 4 weeks with his GF?
Well the lag from England to Europe is pretty bad as I've heard.
On November 14 2011 06:29 Lysanias wrote: Kas should be more merciless, like koreans are. Use Idra's weakness cheese him 3 games in a row or even 5 if some fail.
Yeah maybe, but I guess he knows he can beat Idra in a macro game and that's what he enjoys more.
Guys, what did you expect from Idra on Xel'Naga? Its pretty much impossible to win ZvT on that map and Idra doesn't like to waste his time like that. Settle down.
On November 14 2011 06:39 jmbthirteen wrote: Guys, what did you expect from Idra on Xel'Naga? Its pretty much impossible to win ZvT on that map and Idra doesn't like to waste his time like that. Settle down.
On November 14 2011 06:41 diLLa wrote: Kas is heavily reliant on gimmick builds and terran imbalanced map pickings, i understand idra's rage to be honest.
stfu idra fanboy, kas is a super standard T player
and its not his fault that xel naga is on the mappool
On November 14 2011 06:40 Flonomenalz wrote: Wow, Kas gets abusable positions AGAIN?
How lucky can you get?
Lmfao.
Not so lucky to play a version of the map without rocks blocking the 3rd.
On November 14 2011 06:41 diLLa wrote: Kas is heavily reliant on gimmick builds and terran imbalanced map pickings, i understand idra's rage to be honest.
On November 14 2011 06:41 diLLa wrote: Kas is heavily reliant on gimmick builds and terran imbalanced map pickings, i understand idra's rage to be honest.
On November 14 2011 06:41 diLLa wrote: Kas is heavily reliant on gimmick builds and terran imbalanced map pickings, i understand idra's rage to be honest.
man. he did allin vs 2 orbitals terran. lose army. quit. Nothing about rage etc
you will also didn't find more balanced-builds-terran than kas.
On November 14 2011 06:41 diLLa wrote: Kas is heavily reliant on gimmick builds and terran imbalanced map pickings, i understand idra's rage to be honest.
You clearly do not follow the proscene, or Kas in general.
On November 14 2011 06:41 diLLa wrote: Kas is heavily reliant on gimmick builds and terran imbalanced map pickings, i understand idra's rage to be honest.
stfu idra fanboy, kas is a super standard T player
and its not his fault that xel naga is on the mappool
Kas is gimmicky in the way that he is like 2 months behind in the metagame :p
Just look at his wins and it just proves it is true. He won twice on xel-naga where zerg just can't get a third ever, and instant lose when terran has gold. And he won 1 with a gimmick mass hellion build. Any game that went in late-game he got crushed like a bug.
On November 14 2011 06:41 diLLa wrote: Kas is heavily reliant on gimmick builds and terran imbalanced map pickings, i understand idra's rage to be honest.
You clearly do not follow the proscene, or Kas in general.
He is a very strong standard player.
I do,
I'm solely talking about idra-kas specifically. I know kas is solid, but just not good enough to beat idra in a straight up game.
On November 14 2011 06:41 diLLa wrote: Kas is heavily reliant on gimmick builds and terran imbalanced map pickings, i understand idra's rage to be honest.
man. he did allin vs 2 orbitals terran. lose army. quit. Nothing about rage etc
you will also didn't find more balanced-builds-terran than kas.
Idra did the allin on Xel Naga because it was his best chance to win and it would be quick. Its a terrible map and I play T. It shouldn't be in any tournaments.
On November 14 2011 06:41 diLLa wrote: Kas is heavily reliant on gimmick builds and terran imbalanced map pickings, i understand idra's rage to be honest.
You clearly do not follow the proscene, or Kas in general.
He is a very strong standard player.
Game one he went mass hellions which is gimmicky and game 3 he won cause of the map.
Kas is a great player, but this series has not shown his great play at all.
On November 14 2011 06:44 diLLa wrote: Just look at his wins and it just proves it is true. He won twice on xel-naga where zerg just can't get a third ever, and instant lose when terran has gold. And he won 1 with a gimmick mass hellion build. Any game that went in late-game he got crushed like a bug.
kas beat idra in a huge taldarim macro game recently, so ur statements are pretty much invalid,
On November 14 2011 06:46 OreoBoi wrote: Why are people arguing? Gimmicky play = standard play for terrans. It's just the way terran has to play because they are at a macro disadvantage.
+1 most people dont get that, but the whole point of terran is to punish other races for mistakes, its the only way to win.
On November 14 2011 06:44 MCDayC wrote: Are people really saying Kas is gimmicky? He was one of the original euro macro Terrans, before Thorzain or anyone else really mattered.
He's beating idra tho, so he's obviously the worst cheeser abuser starcraft ever saw. edit : and lucky
On November 14 2011 06:41 diLLa wrote: Kas is heavily reliant on gimmick builds and terran imbalanced map pickings, i understand idra's rage to be honest.
You clearly do not follow the proscene, or Kas in general.
He is a very strong standard player.
I do,
I'm solely talking about idra-kas specifically. I know kas is solid, but just not good enough to beat idra in a straight up game.
Yes, agreed.
However, Idra consistently loses against people he is "better than".
But this says something about Idra and his inability to adapt to the cheese and all-ins people use against him.
On November 14 2011 06:44 MCDayC wrote: Are people really saying Kas is gimmicky? He was one of the original euro macro Terrans, before Thorzain or anyone else really mattered.
He's beating idra tho, so he's obviously the worst cheeser abuser starcraft ever saw. edit : and lucky
Yea calling Kas gimmicky is pretty much the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. He's solid as shit yo. Not that the last 20 replies haven't already told you this. W/e ;D
On November 14 2011 06:44 diLLa wrote: Just look at his wins and it just proves it is true. He won twice on xel-naga where zerg just can't get a third ever, and instant lose when terran has gold. And he won 1 with a gimmick mass hellion build. Any game that went in late-game he got crushed like a bug.
kas beat idra in a huge taldarim macro game recently, so ur statements are pretty much invalid,
He is talking the games today dude. Everyone knows Kas is a beast, but his wins vs Idra today haven't shown it.
On November 14 2011 06:41 diLLa wrote: Kas is heavily reliant on gimmick builds and terran imbalanced map pickings, i understand idra's rage to be honest.
You clearly do not follow the proscene, or Kas in general.
He is a very strong standard player.
I do,
I'm solely talking about idra-kas specifically. I know kas is solid, but just not good enough to beat idra in a straight up game.
Idra is often labeling any game which isnt 7 base 200-200 as cheesy or gimmicky. I find that unfair towards other players. I mean like he didnt 10pooled (or what) Jinro in GSL. It's just state of game, he is strong in macro but like he wants people to "no attack 10 mins" vs him. Of course he will be in advantage because of his macro style and race of course.
idra just beat kas on the correct version of this map in the first series, with kas using the same strategy, don't think this would have ended much different, besides kas got 2 free wins from xel naga and gets last map choice for last game.
edit infact this game is playing out almost exactly the same as the first one on the correct tal-darim, even down to the big push from kas going better than expected but this time kas had 3 attack on his marines
IdrA needs to do what NesTea does when he is ahead on 5 bases, just spend that 1500 gas you have on 60 banelings and completely crush the terran army...
I missed the first 3 games, but you guys are saying IdrA prematurely gg-ed again so I was wondering - which is worse - to be a fan of a premature gg-er or to watch your favorite player get torn apart and still not leave. Cause it hurts me from the inside to see Kas staying in that game for so long :D
On November 14 2011 06:55 Elyvilon wrote: Kas is playing a lot worse today than I've seen him play in quite a while.
Yeah, he was clearly in a bad shape when these games were played, dno how they ended up picking him for the ace. Well, actually, looking at the rest of the roster... :-s
On November 14 2011 06:55 n00b3rt wrote: I missed the first 3 games, but you guys are saying IdrA prematurely gg-ed again so I was wondering - which is worse - to be a fan of a premature gg-er or to watch your favorite player get torn apart and still not leave. Cause it hurts me from the inside to see Kas staying in that game for so long :D
One of those is bad for the player (leaving early), and one is bad for the viewer (leaving late). Ideally you want to leave later since it benefits you as a player, but leaving too late and just dragging out a game you have lost already is pointless.
CC first is just a bad build. Seen the same thing from MVP, TOP and other top koreans as well. Zerg gets to do whatever they want and the T can't apply pressure.
On November 14 2011 06:55 n00b3rt wrote: I missed the first 3 games, but you guys are saying IdrA prematurely gg-ed again so I was wondering - which is worse - to be a fan of a premature gg-er or to watch your favorite player get torn apart and still not leave. Cause it hurts me from the inside to see Kas staying in that game for so long :D
staying even when you have little chance is not disrespectful to your opponent/lack of sportmanship
On November 14 2011 06:46 OreoBoi wrote: Why are people arguing? Gimmicky play = standard play for terrans. It's just the way terran has to play because they are at a macro disadvantage.
+1 most people dont get that, but the whole point of terran is to punish other races for mistakes, its the only way to win.
You watch MVP bro? Reactor hellion into expand, into make units into win. The only time he attacks is when he knows he will be cost efficient in an engagement. Bad Terrans think they need to be gimicky to win. IMMVP will max out before 80% of all pro zergs even if there is no engagement (unless z goes roach).
On November 14 2011 06:55 n00b3rt wrote: I missed the first 3 games, but you guys are saying IdrA prematurely gg-ed again so I was wondering - which is worse - to be a fan of a premature gg-er or to watch your favorite player get torn apart and still not leave. Cause it hurts me from the inside to see Kas staying in that game for so long :D
Idra didn't premature gg at all. One because he didn't gg. Two, because he lost both games when he left them.
On November 14 2011 06:46 OreoBoi wrote: Why are people arguing? Gimmicky play = standard play for terrans. It's just the way terran has to play because they are at a macro disadvantage.
+1 most people dont get that, but the whole point of terran is to punish other races for mistakes, its the only way to win.
You watch MVP bro? Reactor hellion into expand, into make units into win. The only time he attacks is when he knows he will be cost efficient in an engagement. Bad Terrans think they need to be gimicky to win. IMMVP will max out before 80% of all pro zergs even if there is no engagement (unless z goes roach).
Yeah, but that's because he's better than all the zergs. If you're way better than someone, which maxing out before a zerg would indicate, you just do a safe strategy and then win. But we're talking about 2 players around the same skill level, Kas is not going to outmacro idra, it's never gonna happen. Standard play for a terran against a zerg around the same skill level will be gimmicky, theres no way around it.
GGGGGGGGGG. Dammit EG. I have so much love for you. Why can't you win a Team League.... GJ to Empire. They're a fucking amazing team, they fully deserved it.
Lmao, idra continues to behave like a five year old. He just can't keep his rage in check. A shame really because he could improve a lot if he only stopped QQ'ing and actually worked on practicing against the shit he hates.
On November 14 2011 07:05 Cosmology wrote: why are so many people a fan of Kas....he didn't do anything that was cool or particularily impressive, all the games he won were cheese and xel naga.
lol as if double reactor hellions with an expo in between is cheese.
zerg is freewin if they get to mutas and 3 base so I dont get all the whiners saying kas doing gimmicks bc really if you dont you are playing from a insane disadvantage.
On November 14 2011 07:06 skrotcyk wrote: not really impressed with kas's play, 2 of his wins on XNC which is freewin, and 2 other wins by only massing hellions.
Hey, why bother trying when you're playing Idra and you can get free wins by just doing things he doesn't want to prepare for or scout?
On November 14 2011 07:06 4Servy wrote: zerg is freewin if they get to mutas and 3 base so I dont get all the whiners saying kas doing gimmicks bc really if you dont you are playing from a insane disadvantage.
Why did Incontrol or Axslav play in the finals? Huk, Demuslim, or even Machine would have been better choices if they wanted to maximize their chances of winning...
On November 14 2011 07:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Why the hell doesn't IdrA ever build roaches unless he's going all-in? -.-' He scouted fast hellions.
Yeah, it was just bad decision making from Idra. At the very least, he could have put his evo chamber at the front to wall. But he does nothing, and goes for a hidden expansion instead. Meanwhile, unlike what some other commentators are claiming, it's not like mass hellions can really be called gimmicky anymore, after we've seen it so many times. So who's really the gimmicky player in this situation?
On November 14 2011 07:07 BandonBanshee wrote: Is it possable to not be cost effective with hellions? Divebomb into a mineral line and your gaurenteed to kill enough drones to make it worth it.
Watch when people do that to DRG 90% of the time they get destroyed. Its silly to QQ if IdRA looked at mini map and attack with lings he could have held. He let the hellions get past it with like 2 hits
On November 14 2011 07:07 BandonBanshee wrote: Is it possable to not be cost effective with hellions? Divebomb into a mineral line and your gaurenteed to kill enough drones to make it worth it.
Well not really. 8 Hellions = 800 Minerals So you need to kill at least 16 drones, which isn't as easy as it looks if the zerg actually walls off properly and splits his drones.
On November 14 2011 07:07 BandonBanshee wrote: Is it possable to not be cost effective with hellions? Divebomb into a mineral line and your gaurenteed to kill enough drones to make it worth it.
Watch when people do that to DRG 90% of the time they get destroyed.
Ya you'll lose all your hellions but what does it matter when you've killed 14 drones + enough lings to stop a counter attack. Its not like they cost gas or anything.
On November 14 2011 07:05 Micket wrote: The only games Kas wins are on Xelnaga, or with double reactor hellion.
yeah double reactor helion on 2 bases transitioning into tank/marine is pure cheese
and the game on Xelnaga had nothing to do with the map. idra did a fail all-in
get your fanboy bias out of here
If it's a bad map, don't expect good games to be played on it. Toss are crying just as much about it as Z's and it's ridiculous that it's even in tournaments.
Alright peiople stop kidding yourselves it was blind 2reactor hellions, he wasn't ''punishing'' idra for anything because he didnt scout anything, he just prayed and hoped there wouldnt be enouth defence, underwhelming games.
I don't care if some of you are mad about the way Empire won, but they played very well in most of their matches in GCPL and deserve more recognition than they get. Also, Kas has an incredible record in team leagues, even if he didn't play to his fullest potential this time, overall the win is deserved. IdrA failed to adapt to his strategies, so why shouldn't he win?
On November 14 2011 07:06 4Servy wrote: zerg is freewin if they get to mutas and 3 base so I dont get all the whiners saying kas doing gimmicks bc really if you dont you are playing from a insane disadvantage.
then ur terrible, just look at gsl they are fine going up against mutas and more than 3bases.
On November 14 2011 07:07 BandonBanshee wrote: Is it possable to not be cost effective with hellions? Divebomb into a mineral line and your gaurenteed to kill enough drones to make it worth it.
Well not really. 8 Hellions = 800 Minerals So you need to kill at least 16 drones, which isn't as easy as it looks if the zerg actually walls off properly and splits his drones.
The zerg player not only loses drones... also loses mining time and larvae.
On November 14 2011 07:07 BandonBanshee wrote: Is it possable to not be cost effective with hellions? Divebomb into a mineral line and your gaurenteed to kill enough drones to make it worth it.
Watch when people do that to DRG 90% of the time they get destroyed.
Ya you'll lose all your hellions but what does it matter when you've killed 14 drones + enough lings to stop a counter attack. Its not like they cost gas or anything.
Compared to all the gas that the drones and lings cost
On November 14 2011 07:07 BandonBanshee wrote: Is it possable to not be cost effective with hellions? Divebomb into a mineral line and your gaurenteed to kill enough drones to make it worth it.
Well not really. 8 Hellions = 800 Minerals So you need to kill at least 16 drones, which isn't as easy as it looks if the zerg actually walls off properly and splits his drones.
You don't even need to kill 16 drones, cause you force a lot of units and the drones you kill won't mine until they are replaced.
On November 14 2011 07:07 BandonBanshee wrote: Is it possable to not be cost effective with hellions? Divebomb into a mineral line and your gaurenteed to kill enough drones to make it worth it.
Well not really. 8 Hellions = 800 Minerals So you need to kill at least 16 drones, which isn't as easy as it looks if the zerg actually walls off properly and splits his drones.
Well done Empire and especially Kas. TvZ is probably his worst matchup, but it's still good enough for a lot of top zergs. He is definitely the best teamleague player (in EGMC and GCPL at least).
On November 14 2011 07:06 skrotcyk wrote: not really impressed with kas's play, 2 of his wins on XNC which is freewin, and 2 other wins by only massing hellions.
Hey, why bother trying when you're playing Idra and you can get free wins by just doing things he doesn't want to prepare for or scout?
u do realize that reactor hellion opening deny scouting and u gotta go blind roaches as zerg, and that will put you at a disadvantage.
On November 14 2011 07:07 BandonBanshee wrote: Is it possable to not be cost effective with hellions? Divebomb into a mineral line and your gaurenteed to kill enough drones to make it worth it.
Watch when people do that to DRG 90% of the time they get destroyed.
Ya you'll lose all your hellions but what does it matter when you've killed 14 drones + enough lings to stop a counter attack. Its not like they cost gas or anything.
If you at least kinda prepare for something that doesn't happen though. Idra just diddn't defend at all.
On November 14 2011 07:07 BandonBanshee wrote: Is it possable to not be cost effective with hellions? Divebomb into a mineral line and your gaurenteed to kill enough drones to make it worth it.
Watch when people do that to DRG 90% of the time they get destroyed. Its silly to QQ if IdRA looked at mini map and attack with lings he could have held. He let the hellions get past it with like 2 hits
Actually DRG has been losing quite a bit lately to hellion builds when he tries to skip roaches.
On November 14 2011 07:07 BandonBanshee wrote: Is it possable to not be cost effective with hellions? Divebomb into a mineral line and your gaurenteed to kill enough drones to make it worth it.
Watch when people do that to DRG 90% of the time they get destroyed.
Ya you'll lose all your hellions but what does it matter when you've killed 14 drones + enough lings to stop a counter attack. Its not like they cost gas or anything.
Compared to all the gas that the drones and lings cost
Since when do drones and lings counter hellions? Lol wtf.
On November 14 2011 07:07 BandonBanshee wrote: Is it possable to not be cost effective with hellions? Divebomb into a mineral line and your gaurenteed to kill enough drones to make it worth it.
Well not really. 8 Hellions = 800 Minerals So you need to kill at least 16 drones, which isn't as easy as it looks if the zerg actually walls off properly and splits his drones.
You can't compare cost for cost like that.
He just asked if it's possible to not be cost effective.... Of course you can compare cost for cost. Not even including the hidden losses you sustain from sacrificing your hellions, loosing all map vision, creep denial etc.
On November 14 2011 07:07 BandonBanshee wrote: Is it possable to not be cost effective with hellions? Divebomb into a mineral line and your gaurenteed to kill enough drones to make it worth it.
Watch when people do that to DRG 90% of the time they get destroyed. Its silly to QQ if IdRA looked at mini map and attack with lings he could have held. He let the hellions get past it with like 2 hits
Actually DRG has been losing quite a bit lately to hellion builds when he tries to skip roaches.
And when DRG goes roaches, he usually losses against the decent terrans.
That's how much of a crutch roaches are in that TvZ matchup.
Soo awful by Kas =) Gz to team Empire. Although, Kas should really work on his TvZ. After Asus Rog it seemed that Idra had his emotions pretty much under control. Apparently, he still has a long way to go. Anyway, I'm still concerned about Happy and Aristeo since they are going to represent Russia at the next WCG.
P.S. I love how Beastyqt's Serbian flag is similar to Russian and ppl tend to mix them up =)
On November 14 2011 07:07 BandonBanshee wrote: Is it possable to not be cost effective with hellions? Divebomb into a mineral line and your gaurenteed to kill enough drones to make it worth it.
Watch when people do that to DRG 90% of the time they get destroyed.
Ya you'll lose all your hellions but what does it matter when you've killed 14 drones + enough lings to stop a counter attack. Its not like they cost gas or anything.
Compared to all the gas that the drones and lings cost
Since when do drones and lings counter hellions? Lol wtf.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
On November 14 2011 07:10 StarVe wrote: I don't care if some of you are mad about the way Empire won, but they played very well in most of their matches in GCPL and deserve more recognition than they get. Also, Kas has an incredible record in team leagues, even if he didn't play to his fullest potential this time, overall the win is deserved. IdrA failed to adapt to his strategies, so why shouldn't he win?
Exactly. Idra's strength is late game macro and Kas clearly doesn't want to do that, why the hell should he? In the end you do what you feel gives you the best chances of winning, Kas did and he won. You play to win the game, not get to 200/200 first.
On November 14 2011 07:06 4Servy wrote: zerg is freewin if they get to mutas and 3 base so I dont get all the whiners saying kas doing gimmicks bc really if you dont you are playing from a insane disadvantage.
then ur terrible, just look at gsl they are fine going up against mutas and more than 3bases.
There's a huge fucking difference between going to 3 bases safely and going to 3 bases on one spine and 8 lings then whining and talking like you have a clue when you die 50 seconds later.
Also, yeah, Servy, he's pretty bad, saw him low Diamond last time.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
Hellions deny any scouting and that map has such a large base that you can't OL scout.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
On November 14 2011 07:12 HQuality wrote: kas win xnc = "bad map, nothing to talk about" idra win taldarim = "kas noob can't win normal game from idra"
normal TL thread
Hehe yeah, exactly my thought.
Grats to Empire, and thanks for some awesome last game bm amusement
kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
Hellions deny any scouting and that map has such a large base that you can't OL scout.
So the reaction to no information is to mass drones? Lol, please stop being biased.
On November 14 2011 07:10 Micket wrote: At least Idra has done Kas a favour, and immortalised him, just like he did with Cruncher.
This is just a disgrace to Kas
Wouldn't dare to say that he's immortilized Kas either, it was some run-of-the-mill BM that you can come across on the ladder. Also, the fact that IdrA has said that he actually thinks that Kas is good sort of makes this entire thing less "omg idra so bm y u looose".
On November 14 2011 07:10 StarVe wrote: I don't care if some of you are mad about the way Empire won, but they played very well in most of their matches in GCPL and deserve more recognition than they get. Also, Kas has an incredible record in team leagues, even if he didn't play to his fullest potential this time, overall the win is deserved. IdrA failed to adapt to his strategies, so why shouldn't he win?
Exactly. Idra's strength is late game macro and Kas clearly doesn't want to do that, why the hell should he? In the end you do what you feel gives you the best chances of winning, Kas did and he won. You play to win the game, not get to 200/200 first.
The roach build easily counters this. But Zergs have gotten so used to being able to drone into the midgame that when they get punished for it it becomes "Cheese". What ever happenned to conservative zergplay like in BW?
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
I know it isn't all-in, nothing really is for terran, but making 10 hellions blindly and charging directly into your opponents mineral line should be considered cheese. 5 rax reaper wasn't an all-in either, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered cheese.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
YES IT IS
You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third.
Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
Hellions deny any scouting and that map has such a large base that you can't OL scout.
And if you can't scout then playing so supergreedy like Idra did was just moronic especially considering he already died for that exact same reason in a game earlier agaist the same opponent.
On November 14 2011 07:07 BandonBanshee wrote: Is it possable to not be cost effective with hellions? Divebomb into a mineral line and your gaurenteed to kill enough drones to make it worth it.
Watch when people do that to DRG 90% of the time they get destroyed.
Ya you'll lose all your hellions but what does it matter when you've killed 14 drones + enough lings to stop a counter attack. Its not like they cost gas or anything.
Compared to all the gas that the drones and lings cost
Since when do drones and lings counter hellions? Lol wtf.
read your previous post, lol
How does that have anything to do with what I said? Have you ever been counter attacked by drones? Kas didn't do anything special, He didn't scout idra for an extended period of time and just hoped his hellions would do enough damage....It makes for terrible quality games because either way its over in a flash. If you see the game from Kas's vision he didn't know what spawn idra was at until 7:00 minutes in. Idra made alot of mistakes too but at the end of the day kas just crossed his fingers.
On November 14 2011 07:06 skrotcyk wrote: not really impressed with kas's play, 2 of his wins on XNC which is freewin, and 2 other wins by only massing hellions.
Hey, why bother trying when you're playing Idra and you can get free wins by just doing things he doesn't want to prepare for or scout?
u do realize that reactor hellion opening deny scouting and u gotta go blind roaches as zerg, and that will put you at a disadvantage.
Exacly. Roaches are really bad vs marine tank pushes. And that is the thing Idra said on sotg: Terran does not lose to bulls**t. I'm sure every zerg has really dumb loses because they were not able to scout it and they were totally unprepared. It's almost impossible to surprise a terran player (ye roach ling all in is defendable with playing standard)
On November 14 2011 07:17 JediGamer wrote: The roach build easily counters this. But Zergs have gotten so used to being able to drone into the midgame that when they get punished for it it becomes "Cheese". What ever happenned to conservative zergplay like in BW?
"The" roach build? Are you talking about something specific, or just making roaches in general?
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
Hellions deny any scouting and that map has such a large base that you can't OL scout.
So the reaction to no information is to mass drones? Lol, please stop being biased.
You don't need roaches to stop a normal reactor hellion opening. IdrA prepared for what he saw, which was MOST LIKELY 6-8 hellions.
If you did not see, he had a spine, 3 queens, and 15 zerglings, enough to stop that.
Are you saying he should have went roaches, just on the OFF CHANCE that Kas made double factory and 16 hellions?
That's why IdrA dislikes early TvZ, you have to fucking guess sometimes.
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
Kas hasn't really been impressive at any big LANs so far, and also just faces the European a-team mostly, where he isn't as consistent as he used to be.
On November 14 2011 07:17 JediGamer wrote: The roach build easily counters this. But Zergs have gotten so used to being able to drone into the midgame that when they get punished for it it becomes "Cheese". What ever happenned to conservative zergplay like in BW?
Because BW isn't SC2 genius. Conservative Zerg play doesn't work, lmfao.
The roach build counters this if you do the roach build blindly and hope he doesn't tech straight to siege tanks because then your Lair is too late, and Marine/Siege push pre-muta kills you. Idra just got the wrong side of the coin flip.
On November 14 2011 07:10 StarVe wrote: I don't care if some of you are mad about the way Empire won, but they played very well in most of their matches in GCPL and deserve more recognition than they get. Also, Kas has an incredible record in team leagues, even if he didn't play to his fullest potential this time, overall the win is deserved. IdrA failed to adapt to his strategies, so why shouldn't he win?
Exactly. Idra's strength is late game macro and Kas clearly doesn't want to do that, why the hell should he? In the end you do what you feel gives you the best chances of winning, Kas did and he won. You play to win the game, not get to 200/200 first.
I couldnt agree more.
actually kas' macro is on par with idras but his multitasking is worse
i've seen like a million kas games and he goes for long macro games almost all the time. he was trying to mindfuck idra, he succeeded, and fanboys are angry about it. 6 lings on 3 bases at 10 minute is simply bad play from idra, kas deserves the win.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
Hellions deny any scouting and that map has such a large base that you can't OL scout.
So the reaction to no information is to mass drones? Lol, please stop being biased.
You don't need roaches to stop a normal reactor hellion opening. IdrA prepared for what he saw, which was MOST LIKELY 6-8 hellions.
If you did not see, he had a spine, 3 queens, and 15 zerglings, enough to stop that.
Are you saying he should have went roaches, just on the OFF CHANCE that Kas made double factory and 16 hellions?
That's why IdrA dislikes early TvZ, you have to fucking guess sometimes.
How about keeping a ling infront of your ramp and walling OR putting your queens in position to keep potential Helions away. He already lost to Kas building a buttload of Helions why take the risk to die to that again.
On November 14 2011 07:07 BandonBanshee wrote: Is it possable to not be cost effective with hellions? Divebomb into a mineral line and your gaurenteed to kill enough drones to make it worth it.
Well not really. 8 Hellions = 800 Minerals So you need to kill at least 16 drones, which isn't as easy as it looks if the zerg actually walls off properly and splits his drones.
The zerg player not only loses drones... also loses mining time and larvae.
terran not only loses hellions, but also tech time which is crucial because all ur important upgrades whether u go mech or bio (especially bio) will be delayed with investing so much resources into the early hellion play.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
Hellions deny any scouting and that map has such a large base that you can't OL scout.
And if you can't scout then playing so supergreedy like Idra did was just moronic especially considering he already died for that exact same reason in a game earlier agaist the same opponent.
no but if he gonna make blind roaches he's gonna lose to any competent terran who's gonna get 3base up rly fast on a map like that. so he didn't have much of a choice and kas did a good job abusing it.
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
Kas hasn't really been impressive at any big LANs so far, and also just faces the European a-team mostly, where he isn't as consistent as he used to be.
what? Kas played final in Copenhagen games,lose to MC(when MC was in best form).
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
Hellions deny any scouting and that map has such a large base that you can't OL scout.
So the reaction to no information is to mass drones? Lol, please stop being biased.
You don't need roaches to stop a normal reactor hellion opening. IdrA prepared for what he saw, which was MOST LIKELY 6-8 hellions.
If you did not see, he had a spine, 3 queens, and 15 zerglings, enough to stop that.
Are you saying he should have went roaches, just on the OFF CHANCE that Kas made double factory and 16 hellions?
That's why IdrA dislikes early TvZ, you have to fucking guess sometimes.
How about keeping a ling infront of your ramp and walling OR putting your queens in position to keep potential Helions away. He already lost to Kas building a buttload of Helions why take the risk to die to that again.
Hellions give map control for the ling comment, and queens need to be injecting. He had his spare queen at the ramp.
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
Kas hasn't really been impressive at any big LANs so far, and also just faces the European a-team mostly, where he isn't as consistent as he used to be.
what? Kas played final in Copenhagen games,lose to MC(when MC was in best form).
Also, he won WCG Ukraine when players like Dimaga, White-Ra, Strelok and HappyZerg attended.
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
Kas hasn't really been impressive at any big LANs so far, and also just faces the European a-team mostly, where he isn't as consistent as he used to be.
what? Kas played final in Copenhagen games,lose to MC(when MC was in best form).
Also, he won WCG Ukraine when players like Dimaga, White-Ra, Strelok and HappyZerg attended.
I stand corrected in that case. But I still wouldn't call his tournament results as impressive as IdrA's, not by a long shot.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
Hellions deny any scouting and that map has such a large base that you can't OL scout.
So the reaction to no information is to mass drones? Lol, please stop being biased.
You don't need roaches to stop a normal reactor hellion opening. IdrA prepared for what he saw, which was MOST LIKELY 6-8 hellions.
If you did not see, he had a spine, 3 queens, and 15 zerglings, enough to stop that.
Are you saying he should have went roaches, just on the OFF CHANCE that Kas made double factory and 16 hellions?
That's why IdrA dislikes early TvZ, you have to fucking guess sometimes.
How about keeping a ling infront of your ramp and walling OR putting your queens in position to keep potential Helions away. He already lost to Kas building a buttload of Helions why take the risk to die to that again.
Hellions give map control for the ling comment, and queens need to be injecting. He had his spare queen at the ramp.
Yes they do but when the ling dies that you positioned infront of your base you can move one or more Queens to deny entry to the base via blocking the ramp. Then put spine(s) behind it and the Helions will not get in without taking heavy losses.
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
Kas hasn't really been impressive at any big LANs so far, and also just faces the European a-team mostly, where he isn't as consistent as he used to be.
what? Kas played final in Copenhagen games,lose to MC(when MC was in best form).
yes and that's his absolute best lan achievement which only had 4 good players in it.
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
On November 14 2011 07:26 Deckkie wrote: Lately I see more and more Zergs going roaches against Terran, wonder if this is the reason.
Stephano and Nerchio go roaches in zvt all the time- people are just pretending that building a roach warren would be sooo bad for idra cuz if you have a roach warren you have 0% chance in zvt to make a nice excuse for idra for playing bad
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
I'm not sure if ladder ratio is the best measure of who's more consistent. It's accepted that zerg is more volatile and susceptible to all-ins and terran rarely loses to cheese. Lots of ladder for pros is fighting off all-ins.
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
I'm not sure if ladder ratio is the best measure of who's more consistent. It's accepted that zerg is more volatile and susceptible to all-ins and terran rarely loses to cheese. Lots of ladder for pros is fighting off all-ins.
Since some european zergs have an absolutly ridiculous ratio (Stephano, Nerchio...) i think that zergplay is less volatile than the early SC2 time.
On November 14 2011 07:26 Deckkie wrote: Lately I see more and more Zergs going roaches against Terran, wonder if this is the reason.
Stephano and Nerchio go roaches in zvt all the time- people are just pretending that building a roach warren would be sooo bad for idra cuz if you have a roach warren you have 0% chance in zvt to make a nice excuse for idra for playing bad
u so have no clue at all of what your talking about if u think stephano goes roaches all the time in zvt. and for that matter i've seen stephano been slaughtered by this build many times too.
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
Did not kas 4-0ed Nada?
And GoOdy/Adelscott beat NesTea/MVP too, do you honestly think that they are the better players? Though I will admit that Kas was prolly better then NaDa back then. But look, I like Kas a lot, he is my favorite terran streamer after GosiTerran, but really? Kas does not even come close to IdrA's tournament success, and it seems quite delusional to say that he is "more solid" because he cranks out so many ladder games.
On November 14 2011 07:05 ShadezOwnage wrote: idra is a victim of himself.
also, fck demuslim and huk for not playing this and auto winning
Seriously +1 to this.
Wouldn't have even needed the ace match, but I can't believe IdrA doesn't cheese-proof himself. So damn greedy.
I don't blame Kas at all for playing the way he did to win those three games. He got roflstomped in the other 2 (longer, macro, standard) games, and you play to win, period.
Congratulations to Empire, but I wanted EG to win and I'm facepalming because EG totally threw that series.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
YES IT IS
You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third.
Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese.
Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas.
Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening.
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world when he hasn't at LANs sort of tells another story.
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
Did not kas 4-0ed Nada?
And GoOdy/Adelscott beat NesTea/MVP too, do you honestly think that they are the better players? Though I will admit that Kas was prolly better then NaDa back then. But look, I like Kas a lot, he is my favorite terran streamer after GosiTerran, but really? Kas does not even come close to IdrA's tournament success, and it seems quite delusional to say that he is "more solid" because he cranks out so many ladder games.
Kas @ LAN is not kas, he is a random top20 EU terran. So we dont talk about the same kas ( my kas is the online monster, the most succesfull online player of all time behind nerchio)
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet.
I like how people talk about who "deserved" or "didn't deserve" to win. Come on, this is a sport! Things can go not as planned, supposed, should, blah-blah-blah. You dont have to be stronger overall to win, you just have to be stronger at this particular moment! This (not knowing the outcome of the game) is one of the things that makes watching any sport exciting, isn't it?
Idra has been performing extremely recently and I wont believe that in his successful, long runs he hasnt dealt with mass hellion harass. So really, just cut it. He had a good chance to win, and he lost. Dont let his emotions cloud your mind. Besides, do you, all Idra fans out there, really think that the "I'm going to win, when all the conditions I want are present" is a champion's mentality? Or do you treat your idol like a whimsical child, who cant control his emotions? I surely think that EGIdra, the amazing players that he is, certainly deserves better. Btw, referring you to a beautiful article here, on TL, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226236 for some idea about what a winner, a champion, actually, looks like.
Also, I like how some pros say that Sc2 is a new and rapidly changing game, so all the players in the world (including Nestea, Mvp and the likes) SUCK at it atm. There is sooooo much more to learn and explore about the game, that everyone has to improve vigorously and constantly, otherwise they are risking to be left over the side in a snap! New strat has appeared. Haven't seen, haven't prepared? Cya!
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Arnt all these things outside factors that can influence someones game? Meaning that instead of it giving the best tool for measurement it gives a scewed tool for measurement.
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet.
Fair enough, actually. This is the part where it's annoying because my opinion sort of differs from yours, but yeah. I'll actually give you this one. Sorry if I seemed rabid at some point during the discussion.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
YES IT IS
You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third.
Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese.
Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas.
Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening.
You're stupid because in my FIRST post in this thread I congratulated Kas for winning.
How does Idra not playing safe make my argument invalid....? No decent Terran is going to let you scout his 2nd fact unless you get a lucky OL scout. So you have to guess if he's going eco or not.
After Reactor Hellion, Terran can go 2 fact hellion, 1 fact 3rd OC, or 2 fact siege edit: or hellion maurauder all in. What Idra did covers the latter three while still maintaining econ and getting Lair fast enough to deal with specific pre muta pushes.
You obviously don't understand the match up at all, you're just happy to see Idra lose like everyone else bashing him in this thread. If Idra was as well mannered as Sheth, EVERYONE in this thread would be saying, "OMG, STUPID CHEESE KAS IDRA IS STILL BETTER" but instead, because TLers are so quick to confuse personality bias with game play, we have "LOLOLOL IDRA BM NOOB L2SCOUT".
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Arnt all these things outside factors that can influence someones game? Meaning that instead of it giving the best tool for measurement it gives a scewed tool for measurement.
I was thinking more that a player that faces players of equal, or higher, skill and coming out ahead at a LAN sort of dictates who is the better player. But as I wrote to the other guy, it's prolly a bad way of measuring skill as it just shows that some players just thrive in different enviroments.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
YES IT IS
You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third.
Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese.
Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas.
Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening.
Getting 2 reactor facts early isn't cheesy in the slightest. It doesn't put you behind in any way even if you don't do enough damage . If you don't suicide the hellions in just for the chance of some drone kills, you can deny creep tumors while keeping map control with the hellions, and then when you switch over to marine/tanks production the hellions are a great addition scouting ahead, protecting flanks and killing lings.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
YES IT IS
You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third.
Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese.
Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas.
Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening.
You're stupid because in my FIRST post in this thread I congratulated Kas for winning.
How does Idra not playing safe make my argument invalid....? No decent Terran is going to let you scout his 2nd fact unless you get a lucky OL scout. So you have to guess if he's going eco or not.
After Reactor Hellion, Terran can go 2 fact hellion, 1 fact 3rd OC, or 2 fact siege. What Idra did covers the latter two while still maintaining econ and getting Lair fast enough to deal with specific pre muta pushes.
You obviously don't understand the match up at all, you're just happy to see Idra lose like everyone else bashing him in this thread. If Idra was as well mannered as Sheth, EVERYONE in this thread would be saying, "OMG, STUPID CHEESE KAS IDRA IS STILL BETTER" but instead, because TLers are so quick to confuse personality bias with game play, we have "LOLOLOL IDRA BM NOOB L2SCOUT".
Dont think it has anything to do with IdrA his BM. Think it has more to do with the IdrA vs Stephano argument. The second Stephano lost yesterday the chat thread was full with people screaming that Stephano was overrated and that everybody who liked Stephano should stfu.
Roaches are not a viable option here. Just look at DRG v. IMHappy in the GSL Nov. round of 32. + Show Spoiler +
IMHappy went mass hellion opener and DRG saw more than 6 hellions and built a roach warren. He stopped the hellions from harassing but was unable to transition into anything that could stop Happy's push that followed. Happy transitioned into pure mech adding on tanks and thors and rolled over DRG. Im not saying this is imba so dont troll. But it is very hard to stop hellion openers with lings and very hard to transition out of roaches in time to stop the terran follow up.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
YES IT IS
You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third.
Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese.
Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas.
Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening.
Getting 2 reactor facts early isn't cheesy in the slightest. It doesn't put you behind in any way even if you don't do enough damage . If you don't suicide the hellions in just for the chance of some drone kills, you can deny creep tumors while keeping map control with the hellions, and then when you switch over to marine/tanks production the hellions are a great addition scouting ahead, protecting flanks and killing lings.
Yes
It
Is
You cannot tech fast enough to stop midgame Zerg tech if all your hellions do is deny creep tumors. You are forced to go for some sort of delayed mech or marine tank hellion 2 base all in. PLEASE show me 1 replay that exists of a Terran opening 2 fact hellion and NOT doing any damage, then winning in the mid game.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
YES IT IS
You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third.
Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese.
Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas.
Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening.
Getting 2 reactor facts early isn't cheesy in the slightest. It doesn't put you behind in any way even if you don't do enough damage . If you don't suicide the hellions in just for the chance of some drone kills, you can deny creep tumors while keeping map control with the hellions, and then when you switch over to marine/tanks production the hellions are a great addition scouting ahead, protecting flanks and killing lings.
Because 16hellions will help you against 10 mutas that pop at 11 minutes? and because you made 16 hellions instead of marines now u cant take the 3rd base because of mutas, get real, it's alliny as hell.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
YES IT IS
You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third.
Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese.
Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas.
Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening.
Don't bring Protoss in here. They qq b/c they're actually losing left and right. IdrA fanboys and him bm'ed the hell outta everyone even when Zerg and IdrA winning right and left. Totally different.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
YES IT IS
You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third.
Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese.
Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas.
Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening.
Don't bring Protoss in here. They qq b/c they're actually losing left and right. IdrA fanboys and him bm'ed the hell outta everyone even when Zerg and IdrA winning right and left. Totally different.
Umm... Huk didn't just win MLG, did he? With MC in 2nd?
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
YES IT IS
You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third.
Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese.
Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas.
Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening.
Don't bring Protoss in here. They qq b/c they're actually losing left and right. IdrA fanboys and him bm'ed the hell outta everyone even when Zerg and IdrA winning right and left. Totally different.
Umm... Huk didn't just win MLG, did he? With MC in 2nd?
Look at Code A Tosses right now.... lmao.
This isn't 1 month ago.
Really don't wanna argue with you about this to off topic. Just look at the bigger picture and figure yourself.
Congratulations to Team Empire. They are such a strong team. Let us not forget how close it was that they would not make it through to the playoffs. It was decided in the absolute last game in the last round with the standing 1-1 in the ace between Kas and Select. After that 3-2 Mouz - the team that kicked their asses in the group and recently in the EG Master's Cup - to winning the finals. Not bad. :D
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
YES IT IS
You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third.
Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese.
Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas.
Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening.
Getting 2 reactor facts early isn't cheesy in the slightest. It doesn't put you behind in any way even if you don't do enough damage . If you don't suicide the hellions in just for the chance of some drone kills, you can deny creep tumors while keeping map control with the hellions, and then when you switch over to marine/tanks production the hellions are a great addition scouting ahead, protecting flanks and killing lings.
Yes
It
Is
You cannot tech fast enough to stop midgame Zerg tech if all your hellions do is deny creep tumors. You are forced to go for some sort of delayed mech or marine tank hellion 2 base all in. PLEASE show me 1 replay that exists of a Terran opening 2 fact hellion and NOT doing any damage, then winning in the mid game.
On November 14 2011 08:58 Resilient wrote: Beating mouz and EG is amazing. Even more amusing it was the team that Xeris called bad a few months ago that did it.
The fact that Empire beat Fnatic in this tourney and twice in the most recent Evil Geniuses Master's Cup just makes it a bit more sweeter. + Show Spoiler +
some - not so serious - team banter is just healthy for the sport
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
YES IT IS
You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third.
Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese.
Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas.
Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening.
Getting 2 reactor facts early isn't cheesy in the slightest. It doesn't put you behind in any way even if you don't do enough damage . If you don't suicide the hellions in just for the chance of some drone kills, you can deny creep tumors while keeping map control with the hellions, and then when you switch over to marine/tanks production the hellions are a great addition scouting ahead, protecting flanks and killing lings.
Yes
It
Is
You cannot tech fast enough to stop midgame Zerg tech if all your hellions do is deny creep tumors. You are forced to go for some sort of delayed mech or marine tank hellion 2 base all in. PLEASE show me 1 replay that exists of a Terran opening 2 fact hellion and NOT doing any damage, then winning in the mid game.
Please.
it is fine as long as u transition into mech.
Yeah KINDA, but you're going to have to then rush tech in order to get siege mode, enough turrets to stop the incoming 10 mutas, and start getting Thors out. GL taking a third anytime soon, and Zerg is free to double expand while you're rushing your mech tech that you delayed putting out so many hellions.
You just HAVE to do damage with this, there's no other option.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
YES IT IS
You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third.
Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese.
Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas.
Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening.
Getting 2 reactor facts early isn't cheesy in the slightest. It doesn't put you behind in any way even if you don't do enough damage . If you don't suicide the hellions in just for the chance of some drone kills, you can deny creep tumors while keeping map control with the hellions, and then when you switch over to marine/tanks production the hellions are a great addition scouting ahead, protecting flanks and killing lings.
Yes
It
Is
You cannot tech fast enough to stop midgame Zerg tech if all your hellions do is deny creep tumors. You are forced to go for some sort of delayed mech or marine tank hellion 2 base all in. PLEASE show me 1 replay that exists of a Terran opening 2 fact hellion and NOT doing any damage, then winning in the mid game.
Please.
Please, watch Dongraegu vs Happy this GSL he doesnt kill any drones with this opening, still win macro game. now don't tell me DRG isnt a decent zerg.
On November 14 2011 08:48 cold- wrote: idra is a newb who doesn't know how to counter mass hellions
he lost like so many times to this same old strat and still doesn't know that he needs to make more spines or roaches
what an ignorant post
He obviously knows how to counter it. Its the scouting part that is the issue. U make some spines and roaches and the terran ends up doing standard marine tank timing and then what?
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
YES IT IS
You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third.
Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese.
Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas.
Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening.
Don't bring Protoss in here. They qq b/c they're actually losing left and right. IdrA fanboys and him bm'ed the hell outta everyone even when Zerg and IdrA winning right and left. Totally different.
Umm... Huk didn't just win MLG, did he? With MC in 2nd?
Look at Code A Tosses right now.... lmao.
This isn't 1 month ago.
Really don't wanna argue with you about this to off topic. Just look at the bigger picture and figure yourself.
All of the protoss players in code s advanced to the next group stage. What more do you want?
On November 14 2011 07:07 BandonBanshee wrote: Is it possable to not be cost effective with hellions? Divebomb into a mineral line and your gaurenteed to kill enough drones to make it worth it.
Watch when people do that to DRG 90% of the time they get destroyed. Its silly to QQ if IdRA looked at mini map and attack with lings he could have held. He let the hellions get past it with like 2 hits
Actually DRG has been losing quite a bit lately to hellion builds when he tries to skip roaches.
And when DRG goes roaches, he usually losses against the decent terrans.
That's how much of a crutch roaches are in that TvZ matchup.
Considering that 90% of terrans go reactored hellion expand, and about half of the time they get greedy and don't get a bunker or a tank, roaches are not bad at all in TvZ. They often win the game straight up, considering how popular the double OC followup to reactored hellion expand is.
On November 14 2011 08:48 cold- wrote: idra is a newb who doesn't know how to counter mass hellions
he lost like so many times to this same old strat and still doesn't know that he needs to make more spines or roaches
what an ignorant post
He obviously knows how to counter it. Its the scouting part that is the issue. U make some spines and roaches and the terran ends up doing standard marine tank timing and then what?
how is it standard when he invested in 10 hellions ignoramus
On November 14 2011 08:48 cold- wrote: idra is a newb who doesn't know how to counter mass hellions
he lost like so many times to this same old strat and still doesn't know that he needs to make more spines or roaches
what an ignorant post
He obviously knows how to counter it. Its the scouting part that is the issue. U make some spines and roaches and the terran ends up doing standard marine tank timing and then what?
how is it standard when he invested in 10 hellions ignoramus
On November 14 2011 10:11 NuclearJudas wrote: Predicting 3-1 for Empire, with Happy, Beastyqt and Aristeo taking the wins. If not, then 3-2 in EG's favour with Idra winning the ace match.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
YES IT IS
You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third.
Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese.
Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas.
Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening.
Getting 2 reactor facts early isn't cheesy in the slightest. It doesn't put you behind in any way even if you don't do enough damage . If you don't suicide the hellions in just for the chance of some drone kills, you can deny creep tumors while keeping map control with the hellions, and then when you switch over to marine/tanks production the hellions are a great addition scouting ahead, protecting flanks and killing lings.
Yes
It
Is
You cannot tech fast enough to stop midgame Zerg tech if all your hellions do is deny creep tumors. You are forced to go for some sort of delayed mech or marine tank hellion 2 base all in. PLEASE show me 1 replay that exists of a Terran opening 2 fact hellion and NOT doing any damage, then winning in the mid game.
Please.
Please, watch Dongraegu vs Happy this GSL he doesnt kill any drones with this opening, still win macro game. now don't tell me DRG isnt a decent zerg.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
YES IT IS
You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third.
Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese.
Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas.
Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening.
Getting 2 reactor facts early isn't cheesy in the slightest. It doesn't put you behind in any way even if you don't do enough damage . If you don't suicide the hellions in just for the chance of some drone kills, you can deny creep tumors while keeping map control with the hellions, and then when you switch over to marine/tanks production the hellions are a great addition scouting ahead, protecting flanks and killing lings.
Yes
It
Is
You cannot tech fast enough to stop midgame Zerg tech if all your hellions do is deny creep tumors. You are forced to go for some sort of delayed mech or marine tank hellion 2 base all in. PLEASE show me 1 replay that exists of a Terran opening 2 fact hellion and NOT doing any damage, then winning in the mid game.
Please.
Please, watch Dongraegu vs Happy this GSL he doesnt kill any drones with this opening, still win macro game. now don't tell me DRG isnt a decent zerg.
On November 14 2011 07:11 hitpoint wrote: So the entire league ended with two mass hellion cheeses and one xel'naga auto win, but people are complaining about some mild bm instead...
It's not cheese. In a sense, Idra "cheesed" more than Kas, though his "cheese" was blindly build drones without scouting.
Kas went 2fact reactor hellions which isn't cheese in the slightest.
YES IT IS
You have to go 2fact reactor blind and pray that your opponent doesn't get a random lucky OL scout in to see the second fact. If you don't do enough damage you are behind and any decent Zerg midgame will just crush you, as you will be so hard pressed to take a third.
Idra played greedy like always, and Kas won with simple hellion builds. If Idra had said GG and left, this thread wouldn't even be going nuts. Kas played average in every single game, but Terran cheese is best cheese.
Well considering that Idra doesn't play safe and doesn't open most of the times with a roach warren, makes your arguement invalid. He eco cheeses. They both didn't play safe in any way, and Kas was just able to punish it. Now show some manner and congratulate Empire and Kas.
Idra fanboys complain just as much as a protos wins as that a Terran wins, it is sickening.
Don't bring Protoss in here. They qq b/c they're actually losing left and right. IdrA fanboys and him bm'ed the hell outta everyone even when Zerg and IdrA winning right and left. Totally different.
Umm... Huk didn't just win MLG, did he? With MC in 2nd?
Look at Code A Tosses right now.... lmao.
This isn't 1 month ago.
Really don't wanna argue with you about this to off topic. Just look at the bigger picture and figure yourself.
Agreed, I really don't think HuK winning orlando is very representative of the current state of balance. He had group with all protosses + July. His winners bracket games did not have very good showings from either terrans. On the other hand, MCs run through the lower bracket was pretty impressive.
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet.
Fair enough, actually. This is the part where it's annoying because my opinion sort of differs from yours, but yeah. I'll actually give you this one. Sorry if I seemed rabid at some point during the discussion.
my point was that until both kas and idra play bo7s with 20 random top players from all race and eachother and enter the same tournaments, there is no way to prove idra is better, especially since they play different races. idra has more major success, everyone knows that.
kas' achievements are not as major but good none the less, he wins a lesser tournament every week or so and makes 300-500 euros this way, which is probably better for him cuz he is from ukraine where that money is really good and probably empire doesn't even give a salary while EG gives money/tickets everything to idra.
they're different players, Idra has huge lan experience, Kas has nerve problems, and they didn't prove themselves at equal conditions repeatedly for a large enough sample size to tell which of the 2 is better. i find it a bit annoying that a lot of people write these online heroes off, because you know Stephano is one too who who won more money in 2 weeks than idra in his whole sc2 career, and Nerchio is one too, who is 4-0 vs idra and consistently beats very top players who have a good record against idra- but people say nooo idra is 100 times better! there is no real evidence and it's disrespectful to these players.
it's like saying if i can lift 3000 kilos i'm not the strongest man in the world until i do it in front of a large audience, which is silly, cuz obviously i'm the strongest anyway, just don't have a paper of it. you can have your opinion that idra is better, but if you think i'm stupid if i have a different one, when there is no bloody evidence, that's not clever and nice.
On November 14 2011 12:19 MountainDewJunkie wrote: I thought Idra was far more professional in the last few months as a player. Professional/mannered/respectful, is what I'm getting at.
Then this happens.
You want to like Idra, you really do, but man he makes it too hard...
I think this kind of behaviour has become his business model. Would be dumb to change it.
First: It's EG's own fault with letting Axslav and Incontrol playing, Demuslim, Huk or even Machine would have been better choices. Second: Xeris, learn to update the results or at least put a link to Liquipedia. Damn it. Third: Great tournament. There need to be more teamleagues in the foreigner scene.
On November 14 2011 16:31 SkyTheUnknown wrote: First: It's EG's own fault with letting Axslav and Incontrol playing, Demuslim, Huk or even Machine would have been better choices. Second: Xeris, learn to update the results or at least put a link to Liquipedia. Damn it. Third: Great tournament. There need to be more teamleagues in the foreigner scene.
Maybe not more, but longer/more exciting, perhaps a 16 team tournament, with the top foreignteams: mTw, aTn, Fnatic, Liquid, EG, Quantic, Gosu, Mouz, Empire, Dignitas, Millenium, Na'Vi, complexity, Sixjay, VT, eSuba, Acer, etc.
15 playweeks,
after that play offs with the top 4/8 teams.
Prolly there will be way too much discussion when there are 16 teams, so invite 12 teams, and do a qualification tourney for the last 4 teams.
wow probably the weakest of the 4 remaining teams and yet empire still managed to win
all these people saying HuK and demuslim should have played instead are retarded. If they were able to play they would have HuK cant always find the time, plus being in KR doesnt help. And demuslim was away at the time iirc
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
how do u measure level of play if not by achievements? lol? if you win -> u get achievements -> u are a good player
bottom line. the more achievements -> the better player you are.
e.g Roger Federer has 100000000000 tournaments, the more grand slams, etc. -> best player in fkn history. Nadal beats Federer a lot. doesnt matter.. Federer is still the best player in fkn history because he has the more achievements.
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
how do u measure level of play if not by achievements? lol? if you win -> u get achievements -> u are a good player
bottom line. the more achievements -> the better player you are.
e.g Roger Federer has 100000000000 tournaments, the more grand slams, etc. -> best player in fkn history. Nadal beats Federer a lot. doesnt matter.. Federer is still the best player in fkn history because he has the more achievements.
Well, I think that Federer is also considerd the best because of his style, while Nadal just has a lot of raw power in his play.
Congratulations to team Empire and to Kas for beating EG and idra.
For those complaiting about Kas play style, seriously you don't expect someone to be able to defend against so many helions with a dozen of zergling and a couple of queens.
That was poor play from idra. no proper scout, no roaches, and yet he managed to BM Kas.. lololol
This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad.
I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win.
I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see.
On November 14 2011 07:25 Killmouse wrote: everytime idra looses, the thread turns to a balance discussion lol
haha
OR
it becomes a discussion about how the other player "cheesed" him. Considering "cheese" is part of the game, I suggest people stop sooking and get used to it. Kas' strategy prevailed, simple as that...
This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad.
I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win.
I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see.
I like Idra and Kas, but it's a little bit feeble to tilt like this. Kas is a decent player and did well. I feel bad for Idra having to play on Xel'Naga, but that was the previous series, and the amount of ragequits that he did over the 2 series only served to motivate Kas. Idra has so much big tournament experience (more than Kas), and he should have done better. I can't think of a Terran in the world who would want to go in to a macro game with Idra, it's his strength, and Zerg's strength in general. It's not exactly a new or surprising strategy to try and do a lot of damage early on.
If you dont let idra blindly drone up 3 bases you are cheesing him and clearly deserv to get flamed.....at least thats what Idra hand his fans seem to look at it.
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
how do u measure level of play if not by achievements? lol? if you win -> u get achievements -> u are a good player
bottom line. the more achievements -> the better player you are.
e.g Roger Federer has 100000000000 tournaments, the more grand slams, etc. -> best player in fkn history. Nadal beats Federer a lot. doesnt matter.. Federer is still the best player in fkn history because he has the more achievements.
ok let me explain it to you
when thorzain came into the scene, he had less wins than fruitdealer, mc, naniwa, kas
1 month later- thorzain was the tsl champion.
so at the start of the tsl3, thorzain had ZERO achievements yet he still beat everyone. so, according to you thorzain was the worst player in the world at that time, when in fact he was 3 weeks away from beating the world's best korean player at that time, without lag cuz MC was in koppenhagen. so how do you explain this? Thorzain was the worlds worst player and in 3 weeks he practiced so much he could beat MC?
you see now how your logic is flawed? achievements is a good way to tell if someone is a good player or not, is it good enough to tell his exact skill level? nope, it's really not hard to understand
or are you unable to comprehend that having the most achievements is not equal to playing better?
This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad.
I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win.
I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see.
I like Idra and Kas, but it's a little bit feeble to tilt like this. Kas is a decent player and did well. I feel bad for Idra having to play on Xel'Naga, but that was the previous series, and the amount of ragequits that he did over the 2 series only served to motivate Kas. Idra has so much big tournament experience (more than Kas), and he should have done better. I can't think of a Terran in the world who would want to go in to a macro game with Idra, it's his strength, and Zerg's strength in general. It's not exactly a new or surprising strategy to try and do a lot of damage early on.
i guess you feel bad for Kas too because he had to play on tal darim 0.9 where tvz is much worse statistically than zvt on xel'naga, right?
and there are plenty of terrans who could easily beat him in a macro game, stop being ridiculous. macro might be his strength, but try to remember that in mlg vs bomber even though he won the series bomber was consistently outmacroing him, terran up on supply vs a macro zerg, that's cute isn't it.
This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad.
I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win.
I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see.
I like Idra and Kas, but it's a little bit feeble to tilt like this. Kas is a decent player and did well. I feel bad for Idra having to play on Xel'Naga, but that was the previous series, and the amount of ragequits that he did over the 2 series only served to motivate Kas. Idra has so much big tournament experience (more than Kas), and he should have done better. I can't think of a Terran in the world who would want to go in to a macro game with Idra, it's his strength, and Zerg's strength in general. It's not exactly a new or surprising strategy to try and do a lot of damage early on.
i guess you feel bad for Kas too because he had to play on tal darim 0.9 where tvz is much worse statistically than zvt on xel'naga, right?
and there are plenty of terrans who could easily beat him in a macro game, stop being ridiculous. macro might be his strength, but try to remember that in mlg vs bomber even though he won the series bomber was consistently outmacroing him, terran up on supply vs a macro zerg, that's cute isn't it.
Yes, I do, but Kas isn't the tilt machine that Idra is, he can deal with playing on an unfavoured map. I never said it was impossible, and I would give any decent Korean Terran a chance in a macro game with him, I just meant that it's preferable to try and kill him early, so that's what people often try to do. I'm not sure what your point is with Bomber, he's one of the best macro players in the world, agreed, and Idra beat him, right? Idra also beet Puma in macro games recently. It's doable, but Idra's strength is obviously 3+ bases onwards.
This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad.
I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win.
I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see.
I like Idra and Kas, but it's a little bit feeble to tilt like this. Kas is a decent player and did well. I feel bad for Idra having to play on Xel'Naga, but that was the previous series, and the amount of ragequits that he did over the 2 series only served to motivate Kas. Idra has so much big tournament experience (more than Kas), and he should have done better. I can't think of a Terran in the world who would want to go in to a macro game with Idra, it's his strength, and Zerg's strength in general. It's not exactly a new or surprising strategy to try and do a lot of damage early on.
i guess you feel bad for Kas too because he had to play on tal darim 0.9 where tvz is much worse statistically than zvt on xel'naga, right?
and there are plenty of terrans who could easily beat him in a macro game, stop being ridiculous. macro might be his strength, but try to remember that in mlg vs bomber even though he won the series bomber was consistently outmacroing him, terran up on supply vs a macro zerg, that's cute isn't it.
Yes, I do, but Kas isn't the tilt machine that Idra is, he can deal with playing on an unfavoured map. I never said it was impossible, and I would give any decent Korean Terran a chance in a macro game with him, I just meant that it's preferable to try and kill him early, so that's what people often try to do. I'm not sure what your point is with Bomber, he's one of the best macro players in the world, agreed, and Idra beat him, right? Idra also beet Puma in macro games recently. It's doable, but Idra's strength is obviously 3+ bases onwards.
Bomber lost but he was outmacroing idra hard
my point is that there are plenty of players who have just as good or better macro and you say "noone in the world would want to play him in late game" or something like that, which is a little bit too worshipy
Mad props to Kas, willing to win any possible way. Use your oponents weakness to your advantage, this is not a macro only game but anything goes including mind games an cheese and for 5k i'd cheese his ass of aswell. Don't be a nice guy but be a winner plus this is not about you alone but also about your teammates and team aswell. Haters gonne hate.
This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad.
I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win.
I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see.
I like Idra and Kas, but it's a little bit feeble to tilt like this. Kas is a decent player and did well. I feel bad for Idra having to play on Xel'Naga, but that was the previous series, and the amount of ragequits that he did over the 2 series only served to motivate Kas. Idra has so much big tournament experience (more than Kas), and he should have done better. I can't think of a Terran in the world who would want to go in to a macro game with Idra, it's his strength, and Zerg's strength in general. It's not exactly a new or surprising strategy to try and do a lot of damage early on.
i guess you feel bad for Kas too because he had to play on tal darim 0.9 where tvz is much worse statistically than zvt on xel'naga, right?
and there are plenty of terrans who could easily beat him in a macro game, stop being ridiculous. macro might be his strength, but try to remember that in mlg vs bomber even though he won the series bomber was consistently outmacroing him, terran up on supply vs a macro zerg, that's cute isn't it.
Yes, I do, but Kas isn't the tilt machine that Idra is, he can deal with playing on an unfavoured map. I never said it was impossible, and I would give any decent Korean Terran a chance in a macro game with him, I just meant that it's preferable to try and kill him early, so that's what people often try to do. I'm not sure what your point is with Bomber, he's one of the best macro players in the world, agreed, and Idra beat him, right? Idra also beet Puma in macro games recently. It's doable, but Idra's strength is obviously 3+ bases onwards.
Bomber lost but he was outmacroing idra hard
my point is that there are plenty of players who have just as good or better macro and you say "noone in the world would want to play him in late game" or something like that, which is a little bit too worshipy
Hmm. Worshipy isn't actually a word, and outmacroing someone means nothing if you lose the macro game. If it's not clear already, what I said wasn't meant to be taken completely literally, just that people will often avoid macro games with Idra, his macro is great, and he has beaten some extremely good players in macro games. It was a slight exaggeration to make a point. I'm sure the fact that Bomber "outmacroed" Idra is of great comfort to him. He probably would have preferred to have won.
I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see.
It's not sad it's incredibly entertaining. I don't understand how someone could support a player who is just awful and/or doesn't put the effort in to practice, yet lots of people do. Whats the use in being mannered if you play boring and lose all the time?
Well played Kas. Got one step ahead of IdrA in the mindgames. IdrA's new LAN mentality doesn't seem to have carried over to his online play. There was no excuse for letting 30 drones die but well played Kas for making it work. And then the final game, great reactions in pulling SCVs and going up the ramp. He successfully had IdrA on tilt and that all-in was just awful.
This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad.
I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win.
I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see.
I like Idra and Kas, but it's a little bit feeble to tilt like this. Kas is a decent player and did well. I feel bad for Idra having to play on Xel'Naga, but that was the previous series, and the amount of ragequits that he did over the 2 series only served to motivate Kas. Idra has so much big tournament experience (more than Kas), and he should have done better. I can't think of a Terran in the world who would want to go in to a macro game with Idra, it's his strength, and Zerg's strength in general. It's not exactly a new or surprising strategy to try and do a lot of damage early on.
i guess you feel bad for Kas too because he had to play on tal darim 0.9 where tvz is much worse statistically than zvt on xel'naga, right?
and there are plenty of terrans who could easily beat him in a macro game, stop being ridiculous. macro might be his strength, but try to remember that in mlg vs bomber even though he won the series bomber was consistently outmacroing him, terran up on supply vs a macro zerg, that's cute isn't it.
Yes, I do, but Kas isn't the tilt machine that Idra is, he can deal with playing on an unfavoured map. I never said it was impossible, and I would give any decent Korean Terran a chance in a macro game with him, I just meant that it's preferable to try and kill him early, so that's what people often try to do. I'm not sure what your point is with Bomber, he's one of the best macro players in the world, agreed, and Idra beat him, right? Idra also beet Puma in macro games recently. It's doable, but Idra's strength is obviously 3+ bases onwards.
Bomber lost but he was outmacroing idra hard
my point is that there are plenty of players who have just as good or better macro and you say "noone in the world would want to play him in late game" or something like that, which is a little bit too worshipy
Hmm. Worshipy isn't actually a word, and outmacroing someone means nothing if you lose the macro game. If it's not clear already, what I said wasn't meant to be taken completely literally, just that people will often avoid macro games with Idra, his macro is great, and he has beaten some extremely good players in macro games. It was a slight exaggeration to make a point. I'm sure the fact that Bomber "outmacroed" Idra is of great comfort to him. He probably would have preferred to have won.
yeah i guess players are avoiding micro games with marineking and decisionmaking games vs mvp and multitask games vs mma?
an early rush that transitions into longer game well is not out of trying to avoid something, Kas beat him cuz he felt like he could punish idra for his greedy play, which is funny because idra had the same weakness a year ago and he didn't fix it in one year. not because he was afraid of idra's macro. if anything, kas' macro was on par with idra's, his multitasking was way worse, not his macro.
idra's macro is good, but show me a top foreigner who has got bad macro nowadays
I dont give shit, he can call him whatever he wants. It doesn't change the end result.
Personally, yeah its sad to see him lose like that. And as a zerg only player a part wept. But fuck, it was entertaining. And just on a strategic level im surprised idra didn't expect something similar to game 1. It woulda been pretty obvious since Kas couldn't match idra's macro. That isnt a knock on Kas, he is a decent player to say the least, its just my observation.
So thinking what the players would do next, idra as always goes for the macro style muta ling bane and defeating Kas in game 2 it would be expected Kas would resort to whatever it took to beat him.... just like in game 1.
As a zerg player who is a big fan of idras macro, terran players please punish him with cheesy all-ins every game.
1. For some entertaining BM.
and
2. When the day comes and he finally decides to wise-up and do something other than mega macro muta ling bane, i can learn from it.
On November 14 2011 23:45 phrenzy wrote: I dont give shit, he can call him whatever he wants. It doesn't change the end result.
Personally, yeah its sad to see him lose like that. And as a zerg only player a part wept. But fuck, it was entertaining. And just on a strategic level im surprised idra didn't expect something similar to game 1. It woulda been pretty obvious since Kas couldn't match idra's macro. That isnt a knock on Kas, he is a decent player to say the least, its just my observation.
So thinking what the players would do next, idra as always goes for the macro style muta ling bane and defeating Kas in game 2 it would be expected Kas would resort to whatever it took to beat him.... just like in game 1.
As a zerg player who is a big fan of idras macro, terran players please punish him with cheesy all-ins every game.
1. For some entertaining BM.
and
2. When the day comes and he finally decides to wise-up and do something other than mega macro muta ling bane, i can learn from it.
how did he not match him in macro? his supply was always almost even with idra's. his muta defense and multitasking was poor, his thor timing was late, mutas picked him apart in the tal'darim game (i don't remember the other). he wasn't able to secure a 4th base but that was after idra got like 20 mutas, killed his armory repeatedly etc, that's not a macro mistake
Kas' macro is actually his strong point, he is one of the terrans that expands most agressively and usually outmacros everyone.
On November 14 2011 23:45 phrenzy wrote: I dont give shit, he can call him whatever he wants. It doesn't change the end result.
Personally, yeah its sad to see him lose like that. And as a zerg only player a part wept. But fuck, it was entertaining. And just on a strategic level im surprised idra didn't expect something similar to game 1. It woulda been pretty obvious since Kas couldn't match idra's macro. That isnt a knock on Kas, he is a decent player to say the least, its just my observation.
So thinking what the players would do next, idra as always goes for the macro style muta ling bane and defeating Kas in game 2 it would be expected Kas would resort to whatever it took to beat him.... just like in game 1.
As a zerg player who is a big fan of idras macro, terran players please punish him with cheesy all-ins every game.
1. For some entertaining BM.
and
2. When the day comes and he finally decides to wise-up and do something other than mega macro muta ling bane, i can learn from it.
how did he not match him in macro? his supply was always almost even with idra's. his muta defense and multitasking was poor, his thor timing was late, mutas picked him apart in the tal'darim game (i don't remember the other). he wasn't able to secure a 4th base but that was after idra got like 20 mutas, killed his armory repeatedly etc, that's not a macro mistake
Kas' macro is actually his strong point, he is one of the terrans that expands most agressively and usually outmacros everyone.
Marines last time i check were pretty good against mutas, Thors are great and do great amounts of splash especially if you target central mutas that arent boxed but Kas was mainly going mainly bio, and cheap and cheerful stimmed marines are pretty good against mutas (especially if they got upgrades).
Kas macro might be his strong point, i just dont think its as good as idras. Glad he won though
This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad.
I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win.
I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see.
I like Idra and Kas, but it's a little bit feeble to tilt like this. Kas is a decent player and did well. I feel bad for Idra having to play on Xel'Naga, but that was the previous series, and the amount of ragequits that he did over the 2 series only served to motivate Kas. Idra has so much big tournament experience (more than Kas), and he should have done better. I can't think of a Terran in the world who would want to go in to a macro game with Idra, it's his strength, and Zerg's strength in general. It's not exactly a new or surprising strategy to try and do a lot of damage early on.
i guess you feel bad for Kas too because he had to play on tal darim 0.9 where tvz is much worse statistically than zvt on xel'naga, right?
and there are plenty of terrans who could easily beat him in a macro game, stop being ridiculous. macro might be his strength, but try to remember that in mlg vs bomber even though he won the series bomber was consistently outmacroing him, terran up on supply vs a macro zerg, that's cute isn't it.
Yes, I do, but Kas isn't the tilt machine that Idra is, he can deal with playing on an unfavoured map. I never said it was impossible, and I would give any decent Korean Terran a chance in a macro game with him, I just meant that it's preferable to try and kill him early, so that's what people often try to do. I'm not sure what your point is with Bomber, he's one of the best macro players in the world, agreed, and Idra beat him, right? Idra also beet Puma in macro games recently. It's doable, but Idra's strength is obviously 3+ bases onwards.
Bomber lost but he was outmacroing idra hard
my point is that there are plenty of players who have just as good or better macro and you say "noone in the world would want to play him in late game" or something like that, which is a little bit too worshipy
Hmm. Worshipy isn't actually a word, and outmacroing someone means nothing if you lose the macro game. If it's not clear already, what I said wasn't meant to be taken completely literally, just that people will often avoid macro games with Idra, his macro is great, and he has beaten some extremely good players in macro games. It was a slight exaggeration to make a point. I'm sure the fact that Bomber "outmacroed" Idra is of great comfort to him. He probably would have preferred to have won.
yeah i guess players are avoiding micro games with marineking and decisionmaking games vs mvp and multitask games vs mma?
an early rush that transitions into longer game well is not out of trying to avoid something, Kas beat him cuz he felt like he could punish idra for his greedy play, which is funny because idra had the same weakness a year ago and he didn't fix it in one year. not because he was afraid of idra's macro. if anything, kas' macro was on par with idra's, his multitasking was way worse, not his macro.
idra's macro is good, but show me a top foreigner who has got bad macro nowadays
This discussion is getting progressively more and more daft. It's obvious that he killed him because he thought he could. As far as I remember, Idra won all of the macro games in that series with Kas (I missed one or two in the second set). I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make, I'm talking about macro games, not necessarily commenting on whether someone has good or bad macro. You even gave the example of a player who had excellent macro, losing a macro game to Idra. Kas lost the longer, macro games, partly because his Thor timing was a bit off, partly because Idra's muta control is good, party because Idra and zerg in general are stronger late game against Terran. It doesn't matter if you lose to poor multitasking, poor decision making, or questionable build order decisions, it's still the same end result, and a product of the type of game that Idra is good at, and on the flip side, often vulnerable in the early game.
This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad.
I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win.
I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see.
I like Idra and Kas, but it's a little bit feeble to tilt like this. Kas is a decent player and did well. I feel bad for Idra having to play on Xel'Naga, but that was the previous series, and the amount of ragequits that he did over the 2 series only served to motivate Kas. Idra has so much big tournament experience (more than Kas), and he should have done better. I can't think of a Terran in the world who would want to go in to a macro game with Idra, it's his strength, and Zerg's strength in general. It's not exactly a new or surprising strategy to try and do a lot of damage early on.
i guess you feel bad for Kas too because he had to play on tal darim 0.9 where tvz is much worse statistically than zvt on xel'naga, right?
and there are plenty of terrans who could easily beat him in a macro game, stop being ridiculous. macro might be his strength, but try to remember that in mlg vs bomber even though he won the series bomber was consistently outmacroing him, terran up on supply vs a macro zerg, that's cute isn't it.
Yes, I do, but Kas isn't the tilt machine that Idra is, he can deal with playing on an unfavoured map. I never said it was impossible, and I would give any decent Korean Terran a chance in a macro game with him, I just meant that it's preferable to try and kill him early, so that's what people often try to do. I'm not sure what your point is with Bomber, he's one of the best macro players in the world, agreed, and Idra beat him, right? Idra also beet Puma in macro games recently. It's doable, but Idra's strength is obviously 3+ bases onwards.
Bomber lost but he was outmacroing idra hard
my point is that there are plenty of players who have just as good or better macro and you say "noone in the world would want to play him in late game" or something like that, which is a little bit too worshipy
Hmm. Worshipy isn't actually a word, and outmacroing someone means nothing if you lose the macro game. If it's not clear already, what I said wasn't meant to be taken completely literally, just that people will often avoid macro games with Idra, his macro is great, and he has beaten some extremely good players in macro games. It was a slight exaggeration to make a point. I'm sure the fact that Bomber "outmacroed" Idra is of great comfort to him. He probably would have preferred to have won.
yeah i guess players are avoiding micro games with marineking and decisionmaking games vs mvp and multitask games vs mma?
an early rush that transitions into longer game well is not out of trying to avoid something, Kas beat him cuz he felt like he could punish idra for his greedy play, which is funny because idra had the same weakness a year ago and he didn't fix it in one year. not because he was afraid of idra's macro. if anything, kas' macro was on par with idra's, his multitasking was way worse, not his macro.
idra's macro is good, but show me a top foreigner who has got bad macro nowadays
This discussion is getting progressively more and more daft. It's obvious that he killed him because he thought he could. As far as I remember, Idra won all of the macro games in that series with Kas (I missed one or two in the second set). I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make, I'm talking about macro games, not necessarily commenting on whether someone has good or bad macro. You even gave the example of a player who had excellent macro, losing a macro game to Idra. Kas lost the longer, macro games, partly because his Thor timing was a bit off, partly because Idra's muta control is good, party because Idra and zerg in general are stronger late game against Terran. It doesn't matter if you lose to poor multitasking, poor decision making, or questionable build order decisions, it's still the same end result, and a product of the type of game that Idra is good at, and on the flip side, often vulnerable in the early game.
ok, i explain it clearly:
winning in a macro game is not equal with "having better macro". kas' macro is among the best
idra won the macro games, but not because his macro was better, rather because other aspects of his play was better. also note that tal'darim 0.9 is a hugely zerg favored map, people keep forgetting that but i've seen like 20 posts whining about xel'naga
i'm only explaining this cuz you or some other guy implied that people are afraid of getting into a macro game with idra, which is simply not true.
On November 14 2011 23:45 phrenzy wrote: I dont give shit, he can call him whatever he wants. It doesn't change the end result.
Personally, yeah its sad to see him lose like that. And as a zerg only player a part wept. But fuck, it was entertaining. And just on a strategic level im surprised idra didn't expect something similar to game 1. It woulda been pretty obvious since Kas couldn't match idra's macro. That isnt a knock on Kas, he is a decent player to say the least, its just my observation.
So thinking what the players would do next, idra as always goes for the macro style muta ling bane and defeating Kas in game 2 it would be expected Kas would resort to whatever it took to beat him.... just like in game 1.
As a zerg player who is a big fan of idras macro, terran players please punish him with cheesy all-ins every game.
1. For some entertaining BM.
and
2. When the day comes and he finally decides to wise-up and do something other than mega macro muta ling bane, i can learn from it.
how did he not match him in macro? his supply was always almost even with idra's. his muta defense and multitasking was poor, his thor timing was late, mutas picked him apart in the tal'darim game (i don't remember the other). he wasn't able to secure a 4th base but that was after idra got like 20 mutas, killed his armory repeatedly etc, that's not a macro mistake
Kas' macro is actually his strong point, he is one of the terrans that expands most agressively and usually outmacros everyone.
Marines last time i check were pretty good against mutas, Thors are great and do great amounts of splash especially if you target central mutas that arent boxed but Kas was mainly going mainly bio, and cheap and cheerful stimmed marines are pretty good against mutas (especially if they got upgrades).
Kas macro might be his strong point, i just dont think its as good as idras. Glad he won though
yeah of course that is true however we can agree that having bad defense vs mutas is not really a macro problem, which is basically what i said
This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad.
I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win.
I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see.
I like Idra and Kas, but it's a little bit feeble to tilt like this. Kas is a decent player and did well. I feel bad for Idra having to play on Xel'Naga, but that was the previous series, and the amount of ragequits that he did over the 2 series only served to motivate Kas. Idra has so much big tournament experience (more than Kas), and he should have done better. I can't think of a Terran in the world who would want to go in to a macro game with Idra, it's his strength, and Zerg's strength in general. It's not exactly a new or surprising strategy to try and do a lot of damage early on.
i guess you feel bad for Kas too because he had to play on tal darim 0.9 where tvz is much worse statistically than zvt on xel'naga, right?
and there are plenty of terrans who could easily beat him in a macro game, stop being ridiculous. macro might be his strength, but try to remember that in mlg vs bomber even though he won the series bomber was consistently outmacroing him, terran up on supply vs a macro zerg, that's cute isn't it.
Yes, I do, but Kas isn't the tilt machine that Idra is, he can deal with playing on an unfavoured map. I never said it was impossible, and I would give any decent Korean Terran a chance in a macro game with him, I just meant that it's preferable to try and kill him early, so that's what people often try to do. I'm not sure what your point is with Bomber, he's one of the best macro players in the world, agreed, and Idra beat him, right? Idra also beet Puma in macro games recently. It's doable, but Idra's strength is obviously 3+ bases onwards.
Bomber lost but he was outmacroing idra hard
my point is that there are plenty of players who have just as good or better macro and you say "noone in the world would want to play him in late game" or something like that, which is a little bit too worshipy
Hmm. Worshipy isn't actually a word, and outmacroing someone means nothing if you lose the macro game. If it's not clear already, what I said wasn't meant to be taken completely literally, just that people will often avoid macro games with Idra, his macro is great, and he has beaten some extremely good players in macro games. It was a slight exaggeration to make a point. I'm sure the fact that Bomber "outmacroed" Idra is of great comfort to him. He probably would have preferred to have won.
yeah i guess players are avoiding micro games with marineking and decisionmaking games vs mvp and multitask games vs mma?
an early rush that transitions into longer game well is not out of trying to avoid something, Kas beat him cuz he felt like he could punish idra for his greedy play, which is funny because idra had the same weakness a year ago and he didn't fix it in one year. not because he was afraid of idra's macro. if anything, kas' macro was on par with idra's, his multitasking was way worse, not his macro.
idra's macro is good, but show me a top foreigner who has got bad macro nowadays
This discussion is getting progressively more and more daft. It's obvious that he killed him because he thought he could. As far as I remember, Idra won all of the macro games in that series with Kas (I missed one or two in the second set). I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make, I'm talking about macro games, not necessarily commenting on whether someone has good or bad macro. You even gave the example of a player who had excellent macro, losing a macro game to Idra. Kas lost the longer, macro games, partly because his Thor timing was a bit off, partly because Idra's muta control is good, party because Idra and zerg in general are stronger late game against Terran. It doesn't matter if you lose to poor multitasking, poor decision making, or questionable build order decisions, it's still the same end result, and a product of the type of game that Idra is good at, and on the flip side, often vulnerable in the early game.
ok, i explain it clearly:
winning in a macro game is not equal with "having better macro". kas' macro is among the best
idra won the macro games, but not because his macro was better, rather because other aspects of his play was better. also note that tal'darim 0.9 is a hugely zerg favored map, people keep forgetting that but i've seen like 20 posts whining about xel'naga
i'm only explaining this cuz you or some other guy implied that people are afraid of getting into a macro game with idra, which is simply not true.
Wow, you've succeeded at being patronising, and just repeating what I said back at me! You're confusing the act of macro with getting in to macro (long) games. You've even rephrased what I said in my post above to show that you understand that winning a long (macro) game isn't just about who can build the most units. If Terran players aren't afraid of getting in to long games with Idra, then they should be, it's his strength and he often cuts corners to get in to an even stronger late game position. Bomber thought he could do it, and couldn't, Kas couldn't do it, Puma has lost, and even MMA was a little fortunate that Idra gg'd prematurely.
The macro games between idra and kas were pretty much like this: Idra didn't play very safe, so he could easily crush every midgame marine/tank push and after that Idra was ahead and Kas didn't manage to come back.
I don't understand why Idra always has to BM. If he thinks that he is so much better than Kas, he should ask himsef why he lost 4 games against him. Maybe he should work on his builds and his scouting instead of blaming other things for his losses.
It's nice to play greedy, because it makes you look good in the mid- and lategame, but it's not the only way to play the game.
On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote: kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet.
Fair enough, actually. This is the part where it's annoying because my opinion sort of differs from yours, but yeah. I'll actually give you this one. Sorry if I seemed rabid at some point during the discussion.
my point was that until both kas and idra play bo7s with 20 random top players from all race and eachother and enter the same tournaments, there is no way to prove idra is better, especially since they play different races. idra has more major success, everyone knows that.
kas' achievements are not as major but good none the less, he wins a lesser tournament every week or so and makes 300-500 euros this way, which is probably better for him cuz he is from ukraine where that money is really good and probably empire doesn't even give a salary while EG gives money/tickets everything to idra.
they're different players, Idra has huge lan experience, Kas has nerve problems, and they didn't prove themselves at equal conditions repeatedly for a large enough sample size to tell which of the 2 is better. i find it a bit annoying that a lot of people write these online heroes off, because you know Stephano is one too who who won more money in 2 weeks than idra in his whole sc2 career, and Nerchio is one too, who is 4-0 vs idra and consistently beats very top players who have a good record against idra- but people say nooo idra is 100 times better! there is no real evidence and it's disrespectful to these players.
it's like saying if i can lift 3000 kilos i'm not the strongest man in the world until i do it in front of a large audience, which is silly, cuz obviously i'm the strongest anyway, just don't have a paper of it. you can have your opinion that idra is better, but if you think i'm stupid if i have a different one, when there is no bloody evidence, that's not clever and nice.
There is an old saying from the FPS community, do it on lan. Online heros will never be as regarded as LAN champions, it's just the way it is. Claiming you have nerve issues so you can't win is a joke, controlling your emotions and playing well when it counts is part of the skill of being a champ. They can win all the online cups and collect all the payouts in the world but they will never be respected like LAN champions.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet.
Fair enough, actually. This is the part where it's annoying because my opinion sort of differs from yours, but yeah. I'll actually give you this one. Sorry if I seemed rabid at some point during the discussion.
my point was that until both kas and idra play bo7s with 20 random top players from all race and eachother and enter the same tournaments, there is no way to prove idra is better, especially since they play different races. idra has more major success, everyone knows that.
kas' achievements are not as major but good none the less, he wins a lesser tournament every week or so and makes 300-500 euros this way, which is probably better for him cuz he is from ukraine where that money is really good and probably empire doesn't even give a salary while EG gives money/tickets everything to idra.
they're different players, Idra has huge lan experience, Kas has nerve problems, and they didn't prove themselves at equal conditions repeatedly for a large enough sample size to tell which of the 2 is better. i find it a bit annoying that a lot of people write these online heroes off, because you know Stephano is one too who who won more money in 2 weeks than idra in his whole sc2 career, and Nerchio is one too, who is 4-0 vs idra and consistently beats very top players who have a good record against idra- but people say nooo idra is 100 times better! there is no real evidence and it's disrespectful to these players.
it's like saying if i can lift 3000 kilos i'm not the strongest man in the world until i do it in front of a large audience, which is silly, cuz obviously i'm the strongest anyway, just don't have a paper of it. you can have your opinion that idra is better, but if you think i'm stupid if i have a different one, when there is no bloody evidence, that's not clever and nice.
There is an old saying from the FPS community, do it on lan. Online heros will never be as regarded as LAN champions, it's just the way it is. Claiming you have nerve issues so you can't win is a joke, controlling your emotions and playing well when it counts is part of the skill of being a champ. They can win all the online cups and collect all the payouts in the world but they will never be respected like LAN champions.
What are you saying makes no sense. You're saying eSports will never be respected as Sports? Stop hurting eSports.
"There's an old saying in the real world, play real sports..." -_-
This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad.
I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win.
I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see.
I like Idra and Kas, but it's a little bit feeble to tilt like this. Kas is a decent player and did well. I feel bad for Idra having to play on Xel'Naga, but that was the previous series, and the amount of ragequits that he did over the 2 series only served to motivate Kas. Idra has so much big tournament experience (more than Kas), and he should have done better. I can't think of a Terran in the world who would want to go in to a macro game with Idra, it's his strength, and Zerg's strength in general. It's not exactly a new or surprising strategy to try and do a lot of damage early on.
i guess you feel bad for Kas too because he had to play on tal darim 0.9 where tvz is much worse statistically than zvt on xel'naga, right?
and there are plenty of terrans who could easily beat him in a macro game, stop being ridiculous. macro might be his strength, but try to remember that in mlg vs bomber even though he won the series bomber was consistently outmacroing him, terran up on supply vs a macro zerg, that's cute isn't it.
Yes, I do, but Kas isn't the tilt machine that Idra is, he can deal with playing on an unfavoured map. I never said it was impossible, and I would give any decent Korean Terran a chance in a macro game with him, I just meant that it's preferable to try and kill him early, so that's what people often try to do. I'm not sure what your point is with Bomber, he's one of the best macro players in the world, agreed, and Idra beat him, right? Idra also beet Puma in macro games recently. It's doable, but Idra's strength is obviously 3+ bases onwards.
Bomber lost but he was outmacroing idra hard
my point is that there are plenty of players who have just as good or better macro and you say "noone in the world would want to play him in late game" or something like that, which is a little bit too worshipy
Hmm. Worshipy isn't actually a word, and outmacroing someone means nothing if you lose the macro game. If it's not clear already, what I said wasn't meant to be taken completely literally, just that people will often avoid macro games with Idra, his macro is great, and he has beaten some extremely good players in macro games. It was a slight exaggeration to make a point. I'm sure the fact that Bomber "outmacroed" Idra is of great comfort to him. He probably would have preferred to have won.
yeah i guess players are avoiding micro games with marineking and decisionmaking games vs mvp and multitask games vs mma?
an early rush that transitions into longer game well is not out of trying to avoid something, Kas beat him cuz he felt like he could punish idra for his greedy play, which is funny because idra had the same weakness a year ago and he didn't fix it in one year. not because he was afraid of idra's macro. if anything, kas' macro was on par with idra's, his multitasking was way worse, not his macro.
idra's macro is good, but show me a top foreigner who has got bad macro nowadays
This discussion is getting progressively more and more daft. It's obvious that he killed him because he thought he could. As far as I remember, Idra won all of the macro games in that series with Kas (I missed one or two in the second set). I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make, I'm talking about macro games, not necessarily commenting on whether someone has good or bad macro. You even gave the example of a player who had excellent macro, losing a macro game to Idra. Kas lost the longer, macro games, partly because his Thor timing was a bit off, partly because Idra's muta control is good, party because Idra and zerg in general are stronger late game against Terran. It doesn't matter if you lose to poor multitasking, poor decision making, or questionable build order decisions, it's still the same end result, and a product of the type of game that Idra is good at, and on the flip side, often vulnerable in the early game.
ok, i explain it clearly:
winning in a macro game is not equal with "having better macro". kas' macro is among the best
idra won the macro games, but not because his macro was better, rather because other aspects of his play was better. also note that tal'darim 0.9 is a hugely zerg favored map, people keep forgetting that but i've seen like 20 posts whining about xel'naga
i'm only explaining this cuz you or some other guy implied that people are afraid of getting into a macro game with idra, which is simply not true.
Wow, you've succeeded at being patronising, and just repeating what I said back at me! You're confusing the act of macro with getting in to macro (long) games. You've even rephrased what I said in my post above to show that you understand that winning a long (macro) game isn't just about who can build the most units. If Terran players aren't afraid of getting in to long games with Idra, then they should be, it's his strength and he often cuts corners to get in to an even stronger late game position. Bomber thought he could do it, and couldn't, Kas couldn't do it, Puma has lost, and even MMA was a little fortunate that Idra gg'd prematurely.
since i already said that a few posts above yours, didn't you repeat me first?
and btw bomber is 3-2 vs idra, and kas beat him lat time they met in a legit macro game, he is 0-2 vs MMA who killed his own cc in one of the games which could be seen as a silly mistake just like idra's premature gg, so it's a little bit exaggerating to say "MMA was lucky". i know idra's late game zvt is strong, but you're trying to make him seem some kind of superhuman which he isn't, that's the only thing bothering me, he gets beaten by terrans after early game quite often.
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2)
How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet.
Fair enough, actually. This is the part where it's annoying because my opinion sort of differs from yours, but yeah. I'll actually give you this one. Sorry if I seemed rabid at some point during the discussion.
my point was that until both kas and idra play bo7s with 20 random top players from all race and eachother and enter the same tournaments, there is no way to prove idra is better, especially since they play different races. idra has more major success, everyone knows that.
kas' achievements are not as major but good none the less, he wins a lesser tournament every week or so and makes 300-500 euros this way, which is probably better for him cuz he is from ukraine where that money is really good and probably empire doesn't even give a salary while EG gives money/tickets everything to idra.
they're different players, Idra has huge lan experience, Kas has nerve problems, and they didn't prove themselves at equal conditions repeatedly for a large enough sample size to tell which of the 2 is better. i find it a bit annoying that a lot of people write these online heroes off, because you know Stephano is one too who who won more money in 2 weeks than idra in his whole sc2 career, and Nerchio is one too, who is 4-0 vs idra and consistently beats very top players who have a good record against idra- but people say nooo idra is 100 times better! there is no real evidence and it's disrespectful to these players.
it's like saying if i can lift 3000 kilos i'm not the strongest man in the world until i do it in front of a large audience, which is silly, cuz obviously i'm the strongest anyway, just don't have a paper of it. you can have your opinion that idra is better, but if you think i'm stupid if i have a different one, when there is no bloody evidence, that's not clever and nice.
There is an old saying from the FPS community, do it on lan. Online heros will never be as regarded as LAN champions, it's just the way it is. Claiming you have nerve issues so you can't win is a joke, controlling your emotions and playing well when it counts is part of the skill of being a champ. They can win all the online cups and collect all the payouts in the world but they will never be respected like LAN champions.
main flaw in this is that kas doesn't "claim he has nerve issues so he can't win", he doesn't fail in lans, he simply doesn't enter lans. so basically you have no proof of his quality, but you judge his quality. that's like saying one actor is better than the other just cuz he won an award in holywood. lack of information is no evidence of anything.
On November 14 2011 07:28 KvltMan wrote: [quote] How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet.
Fair enough, actually. This is the part where it's annoying because my opinion sort of differs from yours, but yeah. I'll actually give you this one. Sorry if I seemed rabid at some point during the discussion.
my point was that until both kas and idra play bo7s with 20 random top players from all race and eachother and enter the same tournaments, there is no way to prove idra is better, especially since they play different races. idra has more major success, everyone knows that.
kas' achievements are not as major but good none the less, he wins a lesser tournament every week or so and makes 300-500 euros this way, which is probably better for him cuz he is from ukraine where that money is really good and probably empire doesn't even give a salary while EG gives money/tickets everything to idra.
they're different players, Idra has huge lan experience, Kas has nerve problems, and they didn't prove themselves at equal conditions repeatedly for a large enough sample size to tell which of the 2 is better. i find it a bit annoying that a lot of people write these online heroes off, because you know Stephano is one too who who won more money in 2 weeks than idra in his whole sc2 career, and Nerchio is one too, who is 4-0 vs idra and consistently beats very top players who have a good record against idra- but people say nooo idra is 100 times better! there is no real evidence and it's disrespectful to these players.
it's like saying if i can lift 3000 kilos i'm not the strongest man in the world until i do it in front of a large audience, which is silly, cuz obviously i'm the strongest anyway, just don't have a paper of it. you can have your opinion that idra is better, but if you think i'm stupid if i have a different one, when there is no bloody evidence, that's not clever and nice.
There is an old saying from the FPS community, do it on lan. Online heros will never be as regarded as LAN champions, it's just the way it is. Claiming you have nerve issues so you can't win is a joke, controlling your emotions and playing well when it counts is part of the skill of being a champ. They can win all the online cups and collect all the payouts in the world but they will never be respected like LAN champions.
What are you saying makes no sense. You're saying eSports will never be respected as Sports? Stop hurting eSports.
"There's an old saying in the real world, play real sports..." -_-
No, what he's saying makes perfect sense. The mental aspect of playing the game in a competitive environment IS part of what makes a champion, a champion.
Look at SlayerSTaeja. He murders people in the ESV Korean Weekly, but when it comes to the GSL, he obviously has problems playing in the booth. Meanwhile, you have players like NesTea who are exceptionally good at sitting down in the booth and playing a "LAN" game in Starcraft 2.
Live Events offer that extra facet of the game that truly shows how stable a player is. He's not saying anything about Sports vs eSports, because Starcraft 2 is an eSport no matter where you play it. The fact is though, the ability to play under pressure in front of a live audience is something a true champion has to be able to do.
On November 14 2011 07:28 KvltMan wrote: [quote] How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet.
Fair enough, actually. This is the part where it's annoying because my opinion sort of differs from yours, but yeah. I'll actually give you this one. Sorry if I seemed rabid at some point during the discussion.
my point was that until both kas and idra play bo7s with 20 random top players from all race and eachother and enter the same tournaments, there is no way to prove idra is better, especially since they play different races. idra has more major success, everyone knows that.
kas' achievements are not as major but good none the less, he wins a lesser tournament every week or so and makes 300-500 euros this way, which is probably better for him cuz he is from ukraine where that money is really good and probably empire doesn't even give a salary while EG gives money/tickets everything to idra.
they're different players, Idra has huge lan experience, Kas has nerve problems, and they didn't prove themselves at equal conditions repeatedly for a large enough sample size to tell which of the 2 is better. i find it a bit annoying that a lot of people write these online heroes off, because you know Stephano is one too who who won more money in 2 weeks than idra in his whole sc2 career, and Nerchio is one too, who is 4-0 vs idra and consistently beats very top players who have a good record against idra- but people say nooo idra is 100 times better! there is no real evidence and it's disrespectful to these players.
it's like saying if i can lift 3000 kilos i'm not the strongest man in the world until i do it in front of a large audience, which is silly, cuz obviously i'm the strongest anyway, just don't have a paper of it. you can have your opinion that idra is better, but if you think i'm stupid if i have a different one, when there is no bloody evidence, that's not clever and nice.
There is an old saying from the FPS community, do it on lan. Online heros will never be as regarded as LAN champions, it's just the way it is. Claiming you have nerve issues so you can't win is a joke, controlling your emotions and playing well when it counts is part of the skill of being a champ. They can win all the online cups and collect all the payouts in the world but they will never be respected like LAN champions.
What are you saying makes no sense. You're saying eSports will never be respected as Sports? Stop hurting eSports.
"There's an old saying in the real world, play real sports..." -_-
What he says makes perfect sense, and please stop using the overly abused "hurting eSports" it's overdone, and only used to make fun of people who says it nowadays.
On November 14 2011 07:32 msjakofsky wrote: [quote]
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet.
Fair enough, actually. This is the part where it's annoying because my opinion sort of differs from yours, but yeah. I'll actually give you this one. Sorry if I seemed rabid at some point during the discussion.
my point was that until both kas and idra play bo7s with 20 random top players from all race and eachother and enter the same tournaments, there is no way to prove idra is better, especially since they play different races. idra has more major success, everyone knows that.
kas' achievements are not as major but good none the less, he wins a lesser tournament every week or so and makes 300-500 euros this way, which is probably better for him cuz he is from ukraine where that money is really good and probably empire doesn't even give a salary while EG gives money/tickets everything to idra.
they're different players, Idra has huge lan experience, Kas has nerve problems, and they didn't prove themselves at equal conditions repeatedly for a large enough sample size to tell which of the 2 is better. i find it a bit annoying that a lot of people write these online heroes off, because you know Stephano is one too who who won more money in 2 weeks than idra in his whole sc2 career, and Nerchio is one too, who is 4-0 vs idra and consistently beats very top players who have a good record against idra- but people say nooo idra is 100 times better! there is no real evidence and it's disrespectful to these players.
it's like saying if i can lift 3000 kilos i'm not the strongest man in the world until i do it in front of a large audience, which is silly, cuz obviously i'm the strongest anyway, just don't have a paper of it. you can have your opinion that idra is better, but if you think i'm stupid if i have a different one, when there is no bloody evidence, that's not clever and nice.
There is an old saying from the FPS community, do it on lan. Online heros will never be as regarded as LAN champions, it's just the way it is. Claiming you have nerve issues so you can't win is a joke, controlling your emotions and playing well when it counts is part of the skill of being a champ. They can win all the online cups and collect all the payouts in the world but they will never be respected like LAN champions.
What are you saying makes no sense. You're saying eSports will never be respected as Sports? Stop hurting eSports.
"There's an old saying in the real world, play real sports..." -_-
No, what he's saying makes perfect sense. The mental aspect of playing the game in a competitive environment IS part of what makes a champion, a champion.
Look at SlayerSTaeja. He murders people in the ESV Korean Weekly, but when it comes to the GSL, he obviously has problems playing in the booth. Meanwhile, you have players like NesTea who are exceptionally good at sitting down in the booth and playing a "LAN" game in Starcraft 2.
Live Events offer that extra facet of the game that truly shows how stable a player is. He's not saying anything about Sports vs eSports, because Starcraft 2 is an eSport no matter where you play it. The fact is though, the ability to play under pressure in front of a live audience is something a true champion has to be able to do.
don't know if taeja is a valid example, he got to code s which is huge, and he lost to monsters like drg and polt which is no shame at all, while at korean weeklies he plays code b players most of the time- the thing that he didn't own the tournament with the top32 players in the world isn't a good proof. Nerchio and Kas play players like mana, goody, hasuobs, stephano etc etc all the time in the european online cups, who are the very top of europe
On November 14 2011 22:00 gruff wrote: Kas is pretty immune to bm, he usually ignores it.
Kas is such a one cool guy
super Happy EG is losing :D (instead of empire winning)
EG losing just made my day a tiny bit better
LoLoL EG Haterz xD be happy when EG's Strongest roster will lose.
Say what you want, Idra lost the ace. ^_______^
Yupe, Kas played extremly Well, watched his stream and he is a sick player. but it wouldnt have made it to the ace match if huk or demuslim would have played
that way the 2-1 idrA had over him would have stayed like that T_T
anyway, grats for empire, they deserve that win, i just hate when people are gloating >_>
Im not his mother my support is not unconditional, if he do SH1T i ll stop support and cheers for him. You rly think that other players dont wanna BM some times? and why you think they dont do it? Why kas did not call idra "a-move sh1t" in the first series? Simple, because he know's that both of then ar professional starcraft 2 players and they need to respect each other cos we ar not in 6°grade.
Anyway, i ll stop replying cos im pretty sure that you ar a very big fan of Idra's and you ll try to explain the explainable.
On November 15 2011 03:25 Chaves wrote: You try to hope and cheers for Idra, but he's just too unprofessional and *rly not good adjetive here ....*
So. for now on, i just give up, he rly dont deserve my support ... GO GO Kas, YOU PLAYED WELL, GZ!
you werent supporting him at all then, your support was fake if you just turn your back on him after a few bad games.
pretty sure you are just one of those guys who jumps on the "success bandwagon" when idrA wins, and then ragequit it when he lose or BM's.
idrA deserves better fans with real support then guys like you, bb you wont be missed.
What? He was talking about his professionalism, not his losing.
Plz make more sense.
there was a reason when i said
and then ragequit it when he lose or BM's.
plz read more carefully.
Im not his mother my support is not unconditional, if he do SH1T i ll stop support and cheers for him. You rly think that other players dont wanna BM some times? and why you think they dont do it? Why kas did not call idra "a-move sh1t" in the first series? Simple, because he know's that both of then ar professional starcraft 2 players and they need to respect each other cos we ar not in 6°grade.
Anyway, i ll stop replying cos im pretty sure that you ar a very big fan of Idra's and you ll try to explain the explainable.
Dude, i never said you should cheer for him no matter what he does. just saying that if you choose to cheer for him in the first place, you should know his down sides.
i mean c'mon, you know that idrA loves to "do SH1T", i took it to considiration when i started cheering for him. if you werent aware of that part of idrA, then thats something else, i wont blame you for stop supporting him, but if you knew about this part about him then im sorry, but its a bit silly to Support him knowing he is capable of snapping, and quit when he does (unless idrA insulted a player you love more then him, then its ok i guess)...
hope it makes sense, tried to explain it as best as i could, you dont need to reply.
oh and sorry for wall of text T_T tldr: idra is good player, but has really bad manners, dont cheer for him if you hate this part about him.
On November 14 2011 07:28 KvltMan wrote: [quote] How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet.
Fair enough, actually. This is the part where it's annoying because my opinion sort of differs from yours, but yeah. I'll actually give you this one. Sorry if I seemed rabid at some point during the discussion.
my point was that until both kas and idra play bo7s with 20 random top players from all race and eachother and enter the same tournaments, there is no way to prove idra is better, especially since they play different races. idra has more major success, everyone knows that.
kas' achievements are not as major but good none the less, he wins a lesser tournament every week or so and makes 300-500 euros this way, which is probably better for him cuz he is from ukraine where that money is really good and probably empire doesn't even give a salary while EG gives money/tickets everything to idra.
they're different players, Idra has huge lan experience, Kas has nerve problems, and they didn't prove themselves at equal conditions repeatedly for a large enough sample size to tell which of the 2 is better. i find it a bit annoying that a lot of people write these online heroes off, because you know Stephano is one too who who won more money in 2 weeks than idra in his whole sc2 career, and Nerchio is one too, who is 4-0 vs idra and consistently beats very top players who have a good record against idra- but people say nooo idra is 100 times better! there is no real evidence and it's disrespectful to these players.
it's like saying if i can lift 3000 kilos i'm not the strongest man in the world until i do it in front of a large audience, which is silly, cuz obviously i'm the strongest anyway, just don't have a paper of it. you can have your opinion that idra is better, but if you think i'm stupid if i have a different one, when there is no bloody evidence, that's not clever and nice.
There is an old saying from the FPS community, do it on lan. Online heros will never be as regarded as LAN champions, it's just the way it is. Claiming you have nerve issues so you can't win is a joke, controlling your emotions and playing well when it counts is part of the skill of being a champ. They can win all the online cups and collect all the payouts in the world but they will never be respected like LAN champions.
main flaw in this is that kas doesn't "claim he has nerve issues so he can't win", he doesn't fail in lans, he simply doesn't enter lans. so basically you have no proof of his quality, but you judge his quality. that's like saying one actor is better than the other just cuz he won an award in holywood. lack of information is no evidence of anything.
I don't get why you're on this charade but I never said anything about Kas's skill all I said is if you aren't winning major lans you will never be as respected as those that do, it's just how it works. Nobody cares who wins EU CUP #900 for $250. Even if you win this cup 100 times and make more money than an MLG champion, the MLG champion will hold the highest regard. The competition at most live events vs those random scattered online cups isn't even close, the accomplishments aren't the same, the magnitude is so far apart they might as well be completely different games and leagues.
As far as lack of information and no evidence I again said nothing about what's required to determine skill or who the better player might be. We can look at Kas vs IdrA in the sense of accomplishments, competition in tournaments won, head 2 head match ups and general objective view of playstyle and determine who we would rank higher. I'd say we had sufficient information to do that get to work on that if you care so much.
Kas nerve issues was more a response to the slew of his fans spouting his nerves are why he can't perform his best on lan, I have no idea if that's true or not. I'm just saying nerves is a pretty bad excuse if you're a professional. Would anyone care if I'm the best guitarist in the world if I could only play that way in my bedroom alone? Meh.
On November 14 2011 07:28 KvltMan wrote: [quote] How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet.
Fair enough, actually. This is the part where it's annoying because my opinion sort of differs from yours, but yeah. I'll actually give you this one. Sorry if I seemed rabid at some point during the discussion.
my point was that until both kas and idra play bo7s with 20 random top players from all race and eachother and enter the same tournaments, there is no way to prove idra is better, especially since they play different races. idra has more major success, everyone knows that.
kas' achievements are not as major but good none the less, he wins a lesser tournament every week or so and makes 300-500 euros this way, which is probably better for him cuz he is from ukraine where that money is really good and probably empire doesn't even give a salary while EG gives money/tickets everything to idra.
they're different players, Idra has huge lan experience, Kas has nerve problems, and they didn't prove themselves at equal conditions repeatedly for a large enough sample size to tell which of the 2 is better. i find it a bit annoying that a lot of people write these online heroes off, because you know Stephano is one too who who won more money in 2 weeks than idra in his whole sc2 career, and Nerchio is one too, who is 4-0 vs idra and consistently beats very top players who have a good record against idra- but people say nooo idra is 100 times better! there is no real evidence and it's disrespectful to these players.
it's like saying if i can lift 3000 kilos i'm not the strongest man in the world until i do it in front of a large audience, which is silly, cuz obviously i'm the strongest anyway, just don't have a paper of it. you can have your opinion that idra is better, but if you think i'm stupid if i have a different one, when there is no bloody evidence, that's not clever and nice.
There is an old saying from the FPS community, do it on lan. Online heros will never be as regarded as LAN champions, it's just the way it is. Claiming you have nerve issues so you can't win is a joke, controlling your emotions and playing well when it counts is part of the skill of being a champ. They can win all the online cups and collect all the payouts in the world but they will never be respected like LAN champions.
main flaw in this is that kas doesn't "claim he has nerve issues so he can't win", he doesn't fail in lans, he simply doesn't enter lans. so basically you have no proof of his quality, but you judge his quality. that's like saying one actor is better than the other just cuz he won an award in holywood. lack of information is no evidence of anything.
You haven't done any research at all, and blindly making weird statements. With not doing research you are influencing teamliquid posters on a bad way.
<-- at 2.12 to help you a bit.
And he enters a lot of lans, some lans he can't go because of visa. So how did you come up with that? Anyway Kas just doesn't have the lan experience yet, with his personality he needs more than for instance Stephano. But once he got it, he will be ready to measure. Idra is better offline for now, but that just makes him more adapted to lan settings than Kas.
On November 14 2011 07:32 msjakofsky wrote: [quote]
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet.
Fair enough, actually. This is the part where it's annoying because my opinion sort of differs from yours, but yeah. I'll actually give you this one. Sorry if I seemed rabid at some point during the discussion.
my point was that until both kas and idra play bo7s with 20 random top players from all race and eachother and enter the same tournaments, there is no way to prove idra is better, especially since they play different races. idra has more major success, everyone knows that.
kas' achievements are not as major but good none the less, he wins a lesser tournament every week or so and makes 300-500 euros this way, which is probably better for him cuz he is from ukraine where that money is really good and probably empire doesn't even give a salary while EG gives money/tickets everything to idra.
they're different players, Idra has huge lan experience, Kas has nerve problems, and they didn't prove themselves at equal conditions repeatedly for a large enough sample size to tell which of the 2 is better. i find it a bit annoying that a lot of people write these online heroes off, because you know Stephano is one too who who won more money in 2 weeks than idra in his whole sc2 career, and Nerchio is one too, who is 4-0 vs idra and consistently beats very top players who have a good record against idra- but people say nooo idra is 100 times better! there is no real evidence and it's disrespectful to these players.
it's like saying if i can lift 3000 kilos i'm not the strongest man in the world until i do it in front of a large audience, which is silly, cuz obviously i'm the strongest anyway, just don't have a paper of it. you can have your opinion that idra is better, but if you think i'm stupid if i have a different one, when there is no bloody evidence, that's not clever and nice.
There is an old saying from the FPS community, do it on lan. Online heros will never be as regarded as LAN champions, it's just the way it is. Claiming you have nerve issues so you can't win is a joke, controlling your emotions and playing well when it counts is part of the skill of being a champ. They can win all the online cups and collect all the payouts in the world but they will never be respected like LAN champions.
main flaw in this is that kas doesn't "claim he has nerve issues so he can't win", he doesn't fail in lans, he simply doesn't enter lans. so basically you have no proof of his quality, but you judge his quality. that's like saying one actor is better than the other just cuz he won an award in holywood. lack of information is no evidence of anything.
I don't get why you're on this charade but I never said anything about Kas's skill all I said is if you aren't winning major lans you will never be as respected as those that do, it's just how it works. Nobody cares who wins EU CUP #900 for $250. Even if you win this cup 100 times and make more money than an MLG champion, the MLG champion will hold the highest regard. The competition at most live events vs those random scattered online cups isn't even close, the accomplishments aren't the same, the magnitude is so far apart they might as well be completely different games and leagues.
As far as lack of information and no evidence I again said nothing about what's required to determine skill or who the better player might be. We can look at Kas vs IdrA in the sense of accomplishments, competition in tournaments won, head 2 head match ups and general objective view of playstyle and determine who we would rank higher. I'd say we had sufficient information to do that get to work on that if you care so much.
Kas nerve issues was more a response to the slew of his fans spouting his nerves are why he can't perform his best on lan, I have no idea if that's true or not. I'm just saying nerves is a pretty bad excuse if you're a professional. Would anyone care if I'm the best guitarist in the world if I could only play that way in my bedroom alone? Meh.
While I agree with you regarding the overall scope of your assessment, downplaying Kas' online wins to such an extent doesn't feel right to me. Even though it's online, without live audience, not in a tournament environment, if you just look at the opponents, Kas has probably won about ten 'random small online cups' with a better player pool than that of IdrA's wins at MLG D.C. and IPL 1.
I don't intend to downplay IdrA's achievements in any way, he has already - and rightfully so - won so much, I just feel like I have to defend Kas a bit sometimes. :D Of course, it's undeniable that IdrA has no problems whatsoever to perform at LANs while Kas' play still seems to suffer at times, but IdrA has already played like a thousand games in front of a live audience while Kas played maybe 30 - 50. It will probably get better in time.
Also, the guitarist example is stupid. They wouldn't care if you played only in your bedroom, but if you slammed out one incredible album after another from your studio, people certainly would notice, even if your songs don't sound a bit worse in concert.
This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad.
I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win.
I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see.
I like Idra and Kas, but it's a little bit feeble to tilt like this. Kas is a decent player and did well. I feel bad for Idra having to play on Xel'Naga, but that was the previous series, and the amount of ragequits that he did over the 2 series only served to motivate Kas. Idra has so much big tournament experience (more than Kas), and he should have done better. I can't think of a Terran in the world who would want to go in to a macro game with Idra, it's his strength, and Zerg's strength in general. It's not exactly a new or surprising strategy to try and do a lot of damage early on.
i guess you feel bad for Kas too because he had to play on tal darim 0.9 where tvz is much worse statistically than zvt on xel'naga, right?
and there are plenty of terrans who could easily beat him in a macro game, stop being ridiculous. macro might be his strength, but try to remember that in mlg vs bomber even though he won the series bomber was consistently outmacroing him, terran up on supply vs a macro zerg, that's cute isn't it.
I just want to state that taldarim in zvt is actually pretty balanced (the only positions thats its zerg favored are cross).
On November 14 2011 07:32 msjakofsky wrote: [quote]
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet.
Fair enough, actually. This is the part where it's annoying because my opinion sort of differs from yours, but yeah. I'll actually give you this one. Sorry if I seemed rabid at some point during the discussion.
my point was that until both kas and idra play bo7s with 20 random top players from all race and eachother and enter the same tournaments, there is no way to prove idra is better, especially since they play different races. idra has more major success, everyone knows that.
kas' achievements are not as major but good none the less, he wins a lesser tournament every week or so and makes 300-500 euros this way, which is probably better for him cuz he is from ukraine where that money is really good and probably empire doesn't even give a salary while EG gives money/tickets everything to idra.
they're different players, Idra has huge lan experience, Kas has nerve problems, and they didn't prove themselves at equal conditions repeatedly for a large enough sample size to tell which of the 2 is better. i find it a bit annoying that a lot of people write these online heroes off, because you know Stephano is one too who who won more money in 2 weeks than idra in his whole sc2 career, and Nerchio is one too, who is 4-0 vs idra and consistently beats very top players who have a good record against idra- but people say nooo idra is 100 times better! there is no real evidence and it's disrespectful to these players.
it's like saying if i can lift 3000 kilos i'm not the strongest man in the world until i do it in front of a large audience, which is silly, cuz obviously i'm the strongest anyway, just don't have a paper of it. you can have your opinion that idra is better, but if you think i'm stupid if i have a different one, when there is no bloody evidence, that's not clever and nice.
There is an old saying from the FPS community, do it on lan. Online heros will never be as regarded as LAN champions, it's just the way it is. Claiming you have nerve issues so you can't win is a joke, controlling your emotions and playing well when it counts is part of the skill of being a champ. They can win all the online cups and collect all the payouts in the world but they will never be respected like LAN champions.
main flaw in this is that kas doesn't "claim he has nerve issues so he can't win", he doesn't fail in lans, he simply doesn't enter lans. so basically you have no proof of his quality, but you judge his quality. that's like saying one actor is better than the other just cuz he won an award in holywood. lack of information is no evidence of anything.
You haven't done any research at all, and blindly making weird statements. With not doing research you are influencing teamliquid posters on a bad way.
And he enters a lot of lans, some lans he can't go because of visa. So how did you come up with that? Anyway Kas just doesn't have the lan experience yet, with his personality he needs more than for instance Stephano. But once he got it, he will be ready to measure. Idra is better offline for now, but that just makes him more adapted to lan settings than Kas.
i can't really hear the video, but please enlighten me, does he say "i can't win in lans because i have nerve problems?" i would be quite surprised
what kind of research are you talking about? i'm not gonna count every single lan of idra and kas in the tlpd. but i follow both players and i know that idra attended like 100 lans in the last 1 year while kas did about 10 at most. do you see the difference? he hardly enters any lans, therefore you can't really judge his skill at lans. hard to understand?
This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad.
I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win.
I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see.
I like Idra and Kas, but it's a little bit feeble to tilt like this. Kas is a decent player and did well. I feel bad for Idra having to play on Xel'Naga, but that was the previous series, and the amount of ragequits that he did over the 2 series only served to motivate Kas. Idra has so much big tournament experience (more than Kas), and he should have done better. I can't think of a Terran in the world who would want to go in to a macro game with Idra, it's his strength, and Zerg's strength in general. It's not exactly a new or surprising strategy to try and do a lot of damage early on.
i guess you feel bad for Kas too because he had to play on tal darim 0.9 where tvz is much worse statistically than zvt on xel'naga, right?
and there are plenty of terrans who could easily beat him in a macro game, stop being ridiculous. macro might be his strength, but try to remember that in mlg vs bomber even though he won the series bomber was consistently outmacroing him, terran up on supply vs a macro zerg, that's cute isn't it.
I just want to state that taldarim in zvt is actually pretty balanced (the only positions thats its zerg favored are cross).
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GpEHu.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DJIQE.jpg)
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easy to rip on a player, but 10-90 is still.... bit harsh don't you think lol. + Moonglade is no push-over, totally rate Moonglade actually. 
![[image loading]](http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/10/11143/11410586.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QX2t0.png)
