On November 15 2011 03:25 Chaves wrote: You try to hope and cheers for Idra, but he's just too unprofessional and *rly not good adjetive here ....*
So. for now on, i just give up, he rly dont deserve my support ... GO GO Kas, YOU PLAYED WELL, GZ!
you werent supporting him at all then, your support was fake if you just turn your back on him after a few bad games.
pretty sure you are just one of those guys who jumps on the "success bandwagon" when idrA wins, and then ragequit it when he lose or BM's.
idrA deserves better fans with real support then guys like you, bb you wont be missed.
What? He was talking about his professionalism, not his losing.
Plz make more sense.
there was a reason when i said
and then ragequit it when he lose or BM's.
plz read more carefully.
Im not his mother my support is not unconditional, if he do SH1T i ll stop support and cheers for him. You rly think that other players dont wanna BM some times? and why you think they dont do it? Why kas did not call idra "a-move sh1t" in the first series? Simple, because he know's that both of then ar professional starcraft 2 players and they need to respect each other cos we ar not in 6°grade.
Anyway, i ll stop replying cos im pretty sure that you ar a very big fan of Idra's and you ll try to explain the explainable.
Dude, i never said you should cheer for him no matter what he does. just saying that if you choose to cheer for him in the first place, you should know his down sides.
i mean c'mon, you know that idrA loves to "do SH1T", i took it to considiration when i started cheering for him. if you werent aware of that part of idrA, then thats something else, i wont blame you for stop supporting him, but if you knew about this part about him then im sorry, but its a bit silly to Support him knowing he is capable of snapping, and quit when he does (unless idrA insulted a player you love more then him, then its ok i guess)...
hope it makes sense, tried to explain it as best as i could, you dont need to reply.
oh and sorry for wall of text T_T tldr: idra is good player, but has really bad manners, dont cheer for him if you hate this part about him.
On November 14 2011 07:28 KvltMan wrote: [quote] How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet.
Fair enough, actually. This is the part where it's annoying because my opinion sort of differs from yours, but yeah. I'll actually give you this one. Sorry if I seemed rabid at some point during the discussion.
my point was that until both kas and idra play bo7s with 20 random top players from all race and eachother and enter the same tournaments, there is no way to prove idra is better, especially since they play different races. idra has more major success, everyone knows that.
kas' achievements are not as major but good none the less, he wins a lesser tournament every week or so and makes 300-500 euros this way, which is probably better for him cuz he is from ukraine where that money is really good and probably empire doesn't even give a salary while EG gives money/tickets everything to idra.
they're different players, Idra has huge lan experience, Kas has nerve problems, and they didn't prove themselves at equal conditions repeatedly for a large enough sample size to tell which of the 2 is better. i find it a bit annoying that a lot of people write these online heroes off, because you know Stephano is one too who who won more money in 2 weeks than idra in his whole sc2 career, and Nerchio is one too, who is 4-0 vs idra and consistently beats very top players who have a good record against idra- but people say nooo idra is 100 times better! there is no real evidence and it's disrespectful to these players.
it's like saying if i can lift 3000 kilos i'm not the strongest man in the world until i do it in front of a large audience, which is silly, cuz obviously i'm the strongest anyway, just don't have a paper of it. you can have your opinion that idra is better, but if you think i'm stupid if i have a different one, when there is no bloody evidence, that's not clever and nice.
There is an old saying from the FPS community, do it on lan. Online heros will never be as regarded as LAN champions, it's just the way it is. Claiming you have nerve issues so you can't win is a joke, controlling your emotions and playing well when it counts is part of the skill of being a champ. They can win all the online cups and collect all the payouts in the world but they will never be respected like LAN champions.
main flaw in this is that kas doesn't "claim he has nerve issues so he can't win", he doesn't fail in lans, he simply doesn't enter lans. so basically you have no proof of his quality, but you judge his quality. that's like saying one actor is better than the other just cuz he won an award in holywood. lack of information is no evidence of anything.
I don't get why you're on this charade but I never said anything about Kas's skill all I said is if you aren't winning major lans you will never be as respected as those that do, it's just how it works. Nobody cares who wins EU CUP #900 for $250. Even if you win this cup 100 times and make more money than an MLG champion, the MLG champion will hold the highest regard. The competition at most live events vs those random scattered online cups isn't even close, the accomplishments aren't the same, the magnitude is so far apart they might as well be completely different games and leagues.
As far as lack of information and no evidence I again said nothing about what's required to determine skill or who the better player might be. We can look at Kas vs IdrA in the sense of accomplishments, competition in tournaments won, head 2 head match ups and general objective view of playstyle and determine who we would rank higher. I'd say we had sufficient information to do that get to work on that if you care so much.
Kas nerve issues was more a response to the slew of his fans spouting his nerves are why he can't perform his best on lan, I have no idea if that's true or not. I'm just saying nerves is a pretty bad excuse if you're a professional. Would anyone care if I'm the best guitarist in the world if I could only play that way in my bedroom alone? Meh.
On November 14 2011 07:28 KvltMan wrote: [quote] How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now?
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet.
Fair enough, actually. This is the part where it's annoying because my opinion sort of differs from yours, but yeah. I'll actually give you this one. Sorry if I seemed rabid at some point during the discussion.
my point was that until both kas and idra play bo7s with 20 random top players from all race and eachother and enter the same tournaments, there is no way to prove idra is better, especially since they play different races. idra has more major success, everyone knows that.
kas' achievements are not as major but good none the less, he wins a lesser tournament every week or so and makes 300-500 euros this way, which is probably better for him cuz he is from ukraine where that money is really good and probably empire doesn't even give a salary while EG gives money/tickets everything to idra.
they're different players, Idra has huge lan experience, Kas has nerve problems, and they didn't prove themselves at equal conditions repeatedly for a large enough sample size to tell which of the 2 is better. i find it a bit annoying that a lot of people write these online heroes off, because you know Stephano is one too who who won more money in 2 weeks than idra in his whole sc2 career, and Nerchio is one too, who is 4-0 vs idra and consistently beats very top players who have a good record against idra- but people say nooo idra is 100 times better! there is no real evidence and it's disrespectful to these players.
it's like saying if i can lift 3000 kilos i'm not the strongest man in the world until i do it in front of a large audience, which is silly, cuz obviously i'm the strongest anyway, just don't have a paper of it. you can have your opinion that idra is better, but if you think i'm stupid if i have a different one, when there is no bloody evidence, that's not clever and nice.
There is an old saying from the FPS community, do it on lan. Online heros will never be as regarded as LAN champions, it's just the way it is. Claiming you have nerve issues so you can't win is a joke, controlling your emotions and playing well when it counts is part of the skill of being a champ. They can win all the online cups and collect all the payouts in the world but they will never be respected like LAN champions.
main flaw in this is that kas doesn't "claim he has nerve issues so he can't win", he doesn't fail in lans, he simply doesn't enter lans. so basically you have no proof of his quality, but you judge his quality. that's like saying one actor is better than the other just cuz he won an award in holywood. lack of information is no evidence of anything.
You haven't done any research at all, and blindly making weird statements. With not doing research you are influencing teamliquid posters on a bad way.
<-- at 2.12 to help you a bit.
And he enters a lot of lans, some lans he can't go because of visa. So how did you come up with that? Anyway Kas just doesn't have the lan experience yet, with his personality he needs more than for instance Stephano. But once he got it, he will be ready to measure. Idra is better offline for now, but that just makes him more adapted to lan settings than Kas.
On November 14 2011 07:32 msjakofsky wrote: [quote]
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet.
Fair enough, actually. This is the part where it's annoying because my opinion sort of differs from yours, but yeah. I'll actually give you this one. Sorry if I seemed rabid at some point during the discussion.
my point was that until both kas and idra play bo7s with 20 random top players from all race and eachother and enter the same tournaments, there is no way to prove idra is better, especially since they play different races. idra has more major success, everyone knows that.
kas' achievements are not as major but good none the less, he wins a lesser tournament every week or so and makes 300-500 euros this way, which is probably better for him cuz he is from ukraine where that money is really good and probably empire doesn't even give a salary while EG gives money/tickets everything to idra.
they're different players, Idra has huge lan experience, Kas has nerve problems, and they didn't prove themselves at equal conditions repeatedly for a large enough sample size to tell which of the 2 is better. i find it a bit annoying that a lot of people write these online heroes off, because you know Stephano is one too who who won more money in 2 weeks than idra in his whole sc2 career, and Nerchio is one too, who is 4-0 vs idra and consistently beats very top players who have a good record against idra- but people say nooo idra is 100 times better! there is no real evidence and it's disrespectful to these players.
it's like saying if i can lift 3000 kilos i'm not the strongest man in the world until i do it in front of a large audience, which is silly, cuz obviously i'm the strongest anyway, just don't have a paper of it. you can have your opinion that idra is better, but if you think i'm stupid if i have a different one, when there is no bloody evidence, that's not clever and nice.
There is an old saying from the FPS community, do it on lan. Online heros will never be as regarded as LAN champions, it's just the way it is. Claiming you have nerve issues so you can't win is a joke, controlling your emotions and playing well when it counts is part of the skill of being a champ. They can win all the online cups and collect all the payouts in the world but they will never be respected like LAN champions.
main flaw in this is that kas doesn't "claim he has nerve issues so he can't win", he doesn't fail in lans, he simply doesn't enter lans. so basically you have no proof of his quality, but you judge his quality. that's like saying one actor is better than the other just cuz he won an award in holywood. lack of information is no evidence of anything.
I don't get why you're on this charade but I never said anything about Kas's skill all I said is if you aren't winning major lans you will never be as respected as those that do, it's just how it works. Nobody cares who wins EU CUP #900 for $250. Even if you win this cup 100 times and make more money than an MLG champion, the MLG champion will hold the highest regard. The competition at most live events vs those random scattered online cups isn't even close, the accomplishments aren't the same, the magnitude is so far apart they might as well be completely different games and leagues.
As far as lack of information and no evidence I again said nothing about what's required to determine skill or who the better player might be. We can look at Kas vs IdrA in the sense of accomplishments, competition in tournaments won, head 2 head match ups and general objective view of playstyle and determine who we would rank higher. I'd say we had sufficient information to do that get to work on that if you care so much.
Kas nerve issues was more a response to the slew of his fans spouting his nerves are why he can't perform his best on lan, I have no idea if that's true or not. I'm just saying nerves is a pretty bad excuse if you're a professional. Would anyone care if I'm the best guitarist in the world if I could only play that way in my bedroom alone? Meh.
While I agree with you regarding the overall scope of your assessment, downplaying Kas' online wins to such an extent doesn't feel right to me. Even though it's online, without live audience, not in a tournament environment, if you just look at the opponents, Kas has probably won about ten 'random small online cups' with a better player pool than that of IdrA's wins at MLG D.C. and IPL 1.
I don't intend to downplay IdrA's achievements in any way, he has already - and rightfully so - won so much, I just feel like I have to defend Kas a bit sometimes. :D Of course, it's undeniable that IdrA has no problems whatsoever to perform at LANs while Kas' play still seems to suffer at times, but IdrA has already played like a thousand games in front of a live audience while Kas played maybe 30 - 50. It will probably get better in time.
Also, the guitarist example is stupid. They wouldn't care if you played only in your bedroom, but if you slammed out one incredible album after another from your studio, people certainly would notice, even if your songs don't sound a bit worse in concert.
This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad.
I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win.
I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see.
I like Idra and Kas, but it's a little bit feeble to tilt like this. Kas is a decent player and did well. I feel bad for Idra having to play on Xel'Naga, but that was the previous series, and the amount of ragequits that he did over the 2 series only served to motivate Kas. Idra has so much big tournament experience (more than Kas), and he should have done better. I can't think of a Terran in the world who would want to go in to a macro game with Idra, it's his strength, and Zerg's strength in general. It's not exactly a new or surprising strategy to try and do a lot of damage early on.
i guess you feel bad for Kas too because he had to play on tal darim 0.9 where tvz is much worse statistically than zvt on xel'naga, right?
and there are plenty of terrans who could easily beat him in a macro game, stop being ridiculous. macro might be his strength, but try to remember that in mlg vs bomber even though he won the series bomber was consistently outmacroing him, terran up on supply vs a macro zerg, that's cute isn't it.
I just want to state that taldarim in zvt is actually pretty balanced (the only positions thats its zerg favored are cross).
On November 14 2011 07:32 msjakofsky wrote: [quote]
achievements =/= level of play
it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performance
idra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact
it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world
It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot.
your " imo" proofs his point.
Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough?
Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet.
Fair enough, actually. This is the part where it's annoying because my opinion sort of differs from yours, but yeah. I'll actually give you this one. Sorry if I seemed rabid at some point during the discussion.
my point was that until both kas and idra play bo7s with 20 random top players from all race and eachother and enter the same tournaments, there is no way to prove idra is better, especially since they play different races. idra has more major success, everyone knows that.
kas' achievements are not as major but good none the less, he wins a lesser tournament every week or so and makes 300-500 euros this way, which is probably better for him cuz he is from ukraine where that money is really good and probably empire doesn't even give a salary while EG gives money/tickets everything to idra.
they're different players, Idra has huge lan experience, Kas has nerve problems, and they didn't prove themselves at equal conditions repeatedly for a large enough sample size to tell which of the 2 is better. i find it a bit annoying that a lot of people write these online heroes off, because you know Stephano is one too who who won more money in 2 weeks than idra in his whole sc2 career, and Nerchio is one too, who is 4-0 vs idra and consistently beats very top players who have a good record against idra- but people say nooo idra is 100 times better! there is no real evidence and it's disrespectful to these players.
it's like saying if i can lift 3000 kilos i'm not the strongest man in the world until i do it in front of a large audience, which is silly, cuz obviously i'm the strongest anyway, just don't have a paper of it. you can have your opinion that idra is better, but if you think i'm stupid if i have a different one, when there is no bloody evidence, that's not clever and nice.
There is an old saying from the FPS community, do it on lan. Online heros will never be as regarded as LAN champions, it's just the way it is. Claiming you have nerve issues so you can't win is a joke, controlling your emotions and playing well when it counts is part of the skill of being a champ. They can win all the online cups and collect all the payouts in the world but they will never be respected like LAN champions.
main flaw in this is that kas doesn't "claim he has nerve issues so he can't win", he doesn't fail in lans, he simply doesn't enter lans. so basically you have no proof of his quality, but you judge his quality. that's like saying one actor is better than the other just cuz he won an award in holywood. lack of information is no evidence of anything.
You haven't done any research at all, and blindly making weird statements. With not doing research you are influencing teamliquid posters on a bad way.
And he enters a lot of lans, some lans he can't go because of visa. So how did you come up with that? Anyway Kas just doesn't have the lan experience yet, with his personality he needs more than for instance Stephano. But once he got it, he will be ready to measure. Idra is better offline for now, but that just makes him more adapted to lan settings than Kas.
i can't really hear the video, but please enlighten me, does he say "i can't win in lans because i have nerve problems?" i would be quite surprised
what kind of research are you talking about? i'm not gonna count every single lan of idra and kas in the tlpd. but i follow both players and i know that idra attended like 100 lans in the last 1 year while kas did about 10 at most. do you see the difference? he hardly enters any lans, therefore you can't really judge his skill at lans. hard to understand?
This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad.
I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win.
I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see.
I like Idra and Kas, but it's a little bit feeble to tilt like this. Kas is a decent player and did well. I feel bad for Idra having to play on Xel'Naga, but that was the previous series, and the amount of ragequits that he did over the 2 series only served to motivate Kas. Idra has so much big tournament experience (more than Kas), and he should have done better. I can't think of a Terran in the world who would want to go in to a macro game with Idra, it's his strength, and Zerg's strength in general. It's not exactly a new or surprising strategy to try and do a lot of damage early on.
i guess you feel bad for Kas too because he had to play on tal darim 0.9 where tvz is much worse statistically than zvt on xel'naga, right?
and there are plenty of terrans who could easily beat him in a macro game, stop being ridiculous. macro might be his strength, but try to remember that in mlg vs bomber even though he won the series bomber was consistently outmacroing him, terran up on supply vs a macro zerg, that's cute isn't it.
I just want to state that taldarim in zvt is actually pretty balanced (the only positions thats its zerg favored are cross).
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QX2t0.png)
i'm not gonna count every single lan of idra and kas in the tlpd. but i follow both players and i know that idra attended like 100 lans in the last 1 year while kas did about 10 at most. do you see the difference? he hardly enters any lans, therefore you can't really judge his skill at lans. hard to understand? 
