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On November 14 2011 22:22 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 21:55 scruffeh wrote:On November 14 2011 21:35 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 19:10 scruffeh wrote:On November 14 2011 18:20 purpose wrote:On November 14 2011 07:06 UberDrive wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QX2t0.png) Sigh... This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad. I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win. I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see. I like Idra and Kas, but it's a little bit feeble to tilt like this. Kas is a decent player and did well. I feel bad for Idra having to play on Xel'Naga, but that was the previous series, and the amount of ragequits that he did over the 2 series only served to motivate Kas. Idra has so much big tournament experience (more than Kas), and he should have done better. I can't think of a Terran in the world who would want to go in to a macro game with Idra, it's his strength, and Zerg's strength in general. It's not exactly a new or surprising strategy to try and do a lot of damage early on. i guess you feel bad for Kas too because he had to play on tal darim 0.9 where tvz is much worse statistically than zvt on xel'naga, right? and there are plenty of terrans who could easily beat him in a macro game, stop being ridiculous. macro might be his strength, but try to remember that in mlg vs bomber even though he won the series bomber was consistently outmacroing him, terran up on supply vs a macro zerg, that's cute isn't it. Yes, I do, but Kas isn't the tilt machine that Idra is, he can deal with playing on an unfavoured map. I never said it was impossible, and I would give any decent Korean Terran a chance in a macro game with him, I just meant that it's preferable to try and kill him early, so that's what people often try to do. I'm not sure what your point is with Bomber, he's one of the best macro players in the world, agreed, and Idra beat him, right? Idra also beet Puma in macro games recently. It's doable, but Idra's strength is obviously 3+ bases onwards. Bomber lost but he was outmacroing idra hard my point is that there are plenty of players who have just as good or better macro and you say "noone in the world would want to play him in late game" or something like that, which is a little bit too worshipy
Hmm. Worshipy isn't actually a word, and outmacroing someone means nothing if you lose the macro game. If it's not clear already, what I said wasn't meant to be taken completely literally, just that people will often avoid macro games with Idra, his macro is great, and he has beaten some extremely good players in macro games. It was a slight exaggeration to make a point. I'm sure the fact that Bomber "outmacroed" Idra is of great comfort to him. He probably would have preferred to have won.
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On November 14 2011 18:20 purpose wrote:I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see.
It's not sad it's incredibly entertaining. I don't understand how someone could support a player who is just awful and/or doesn't put the effort in to practice, yet lots of people do. Whats the use in being mannered if you play boring and lose all the time?
Well played Kas. Got one step ahead of IdrA in the mindgames. IdrA's new LAN mentality doesn't seem to have carried over to his online play. There was no excuse for letting 30 drones die but well played Kas for making it work.
And then the final game, great reactions in pulling SCVs and going up the ramp. He successfully had IdrA on tilt and that all-in was just awful.
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Zzzzz I hate not updated OPs, what were the individual results?
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On November 14 2011 23:17 Mithriel wrote:
Zzzzz I hate not updated OPs, what were the individual results?
PuMa 2-1 Happy
iNcontroL 0-2 Beastyqt
IdrA 2-1 Kas
Axslav 1-2 Aristeo
IdrA 2-3 Kas
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On November 14 2011 22:44 scruffeh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 22:22 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 21:55 scruffeh wrote:On November 14 2011 21:35 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 19:10 scruffeh wrote:On November 14 2011 18:20 purpose wrote:On November 14 2011 07:06 UberDrive wrote:Sigh... This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad. I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win. I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see. I like Idra and Kas, but it's a little bit feeble to tilt like this. Kas is a decent player and did well. I feel bad for Idra having to play on Xel'Naga, but that was the previous series, and the amount of ragequits that he did over the 2 series only served to motivate Kas. Idra has so much big tournament experience (more than Kas), and he should have done better. I can't think of a Terran in the world who would want to go in to a macro game with Idra, it's his strength, and Zerg's strength in general. It's not exactly a new or surprising strategy to try and do a lot of damage early on. i guess you feel bad for Kas too because he had to play on tal darim 0.9 where tvz is much worse statistically than zvt on xel'naga, right? and there are plenty of terrans who could easily beat him in a macro game, stop being ridiculous. macro might be his strength, but try to remember that in mlg vs bomber even though he won the series bomber was consistently outmacroing him, terran up on supply vs a macro zerg, that's cute isn't it. Yes, I do, but Kas isn't the tilt machine that Idra is, he can deal with playing on an unfavoured map. I never said it was impossible, and I would give any decent Korean Terran a chance in a macro game with him, I just meant that it's preferable to try and kill him early, so that's what people often try to do. I'm not sure what your point is with Bomber, he's one of the best macro players in the world, agreed, and Idra beat him, right? Idra also beet Puma in macro games recently. It's doable, but Idra's strength is obviously 3+ bases onwards. Bomber lost but he was outmacroing idra hard my point is that there are plenty of players who have just as good or better macro and you say "noone in the world would want to play him in late game" or something like that, which is a little bit too worshipy Hmm. Worshipy isn't actually a word, and outmacroing someone means nothing if you lose the macro game. If it's not clear already, what I said wasn't meant to be taken completely literally, just that people will often avoid macro games with Idra, his macro is great, and he has beaten some extremely good players in macro games. It was a slight exaggeration to make a point. I'm sure the fact that Bomber "outmacroed" Idra is of great comfort to him. He probably would have preferred to have won.
yeah i guess players are avoiding micro games with marineking and decisionmaking games vs mvp and multitask games vs mma? 
an early rush that transitions into longer game well is not out of trying to avoid something, Kas beat him cuz he felt like he could punish idra for his greedy play, which is funny because idra had the same weakness a year ago and he didn't fix it in one year. not because he was afraid of idra's macro. if anything, kas' macro was on par with idra's, his multitasking was way worse, not his macro.
idra's macro is good, but show me a top foreigner who has got bad macro nowadays
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I dont give shit, he can call him whatever he wants. It doesn't change the end result.
Personally, yeah its sad to see him lose like that. And as a zerg only player a part wept. But fuck, it was entertaining. And just on a strategic level im surprised idra didn't expect something similar to game 1. It woulda been pretty obvious since Kas couldn't match idra's macro. That isnt a knock on Kas, he is a decent player to say the least, its just my observation.
So thinking what the players would do next, idra as always goes for the macro style muta ling bane and defeating Kas in game 2 it would be expected Kas would resort to whatever it took to beat him.... just like in game 1.
As a zerg player who is a big fan of idras macro, terran players please punish him with cheesy all-ins every game.
1. For some entertaining BM.
and
2. When the day comes and he finally decides to wise-up and do something other than mega macro muta ling bane, i can learn from it.
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Congratulations to Empire!
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On November 14 2011 23:45 phrenzy wrote:
I dont give shit, he can call him whatever he wants. It doesn't change the end result.
Personally, yeah its sad to see him lose like that. And as a zerg only player a part wept. But fuck, it was entertaining. And just on a strategic level im surprised idra didn't expect something similar to game 1. It woulda been pretty obvious since Kas couldn't match idra's macro. That isnt a knock on Kas, he is a decent player to say the least, its just my observation.
So thinking what the players would do next, idra as always goes for the macro style muta ling bane and defeating Kas in game 2 it would be expected Kas would resort to whatever it took to beat him.... just like in game 1.
As a zerg player who is a big fan of idras macro, terran players please punish him with cheesy all-ins every game.
1. For some entertaining BM.
and
2. When the day comes and he finally decides to wise-up and do something other than mega macro muta ling bane, i can learn from it.
how did he not match him in macro? his supply was always almost even with idra's. his muta defense and multitasking was poor, his thor timing was late, mutas picked him apart in the tal'darim game (i don't remember the other). he wasn't able to secure a 4th base but that was after idra got like 20 mutas, killed his armory repeatedly etc, that's not a macro mistake
Kas' macro is actually his strong point, he is one of the terrans that expands most agressively and usually outmacros everyone.
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Nice big congratulations to Empire, couldnt have been a better result with them winning and idra&fanbois raging.
Cant wait for Kas to play this well on a LAN event though.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 14 2011 23:52 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 23:45 phrenzy wrote:
I dont give shit, he can call him whatever he wants. It doesn't change the end result.
Personally, yeah its sad to see him lose like that. And as a zerg only player a part wept. But fuck, it was entertaining. And just on a strategic level im surprised idra didn't expect something similar to game 1. It woulda been pretty obvious since Kas couldn't match idra's macro. That isnt a knock on Kas, he is a decent player to say the least, its just my observation.
So thinking what the players would do next, idra as always goes for the macro style muta ling bane and defeating Kas in game 2 it would be expected Kas would resort to whatever it took to beat him.... just like in game 1.
As a zerg player who is a big fan of idras macro, terran players please punish him with cheesy all-ins every game.
1. For some entertaining BM.
and
2. When the day comes and he finally decides to wise-up and do something other than mega macro muta ling bane, i can learn from it. how did he not match him in macro? his supply was always almost even with idra's. his muta defense and multitasking was poor, his thor timing was late, mutas picked him apart in the tal'darim game (i don't remember the other). he wasn't able to secure a 4th base but that was after idra got like 20 mutas, killed his armory repeatedly etc, that's not a macro mistake Kas' macro is actually his strong point, he is one of the terrans that expands most agressively and usually outmacros everyone.
Marines last time i check were pretty good against mutas, Thors are great and do great amounts of splash especially if you target central mutas that arent boxed but Kas was mainly going mainly bio, and cheap and cheerful stimmed marines are pretty good against mutas (especially if they got upgrades).
Kas macro might be his strong point, i just dont think its as good as idras. Glad he won though 
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On November 14 2011 23:34 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 22:44 scruffeh wrote:On November 14 2011 22:22 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 21:55 scruffeh wrote:On November 14 2011 21:35 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 19:10 scruffeh wrote:On November 14 2011 18:20 purpose wrote:On November 14 2011 07:06 UberDrive wrote:Sigh... This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad. I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win. I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see. I like Idra and Kas, but it's a little bit feeble to tilt like this. Kas is a decent player and did well. I feel bad for Idra having to play on Xel'Naga, but that was the previous series, and the amount of ragequits that he did over the 2 series only served to motivate Kas. Idra has so much big tournament experience (more than Kas), and he should have done better. I can't think of a Terran in the world who would want to go in to a macro game with Idra, it's his strength, and Zerg's strength in general. It's not exactly a new or surprising strategy to try and do a lot of damage early on. i guess you feel bad for Kas too because he had to play on tal darim 0.9 where tvz is much worse statistically than zvt on xel'naga, right? and there are plenty of terrans who could easily beat him in a macro game, stop being ridiculous. macro might be his strength, but try to remember that in mlg vs bomber even though he won the series bomber was consistently outmacroing him, terran up on supply vs a macro zerg, that's cute isn't it. Yes, I do, but Kas isn't the tilt machine that Idra is, he can deal with playing on an unfavoured map. I never said it was impossible, and I would give any decent Korean Terran a chance in a macro game with him, I just meant that it's preferable to try and kill him early, so that's what people often try to do. I'm not sure what your point is with Bomber, he's one of the best macro players in the world, agreed, and Idra beat him, right? Idra also beet Puma in macro games recently. It's doable, but Idra's strength is obviously 3+ bases onwards. Bomber lost but he was outmacroing idra hard my point is that there are plenty of players who have just as good or better macro and you say "noone in the world would want to play him in late game" or something like that, which is a little bit too worshipy Hmm. Worshipy isn't actually a word, and outmacroing someone means nothing if you lose the macro game. If it's not clear already, what I said wasn't meant to be taken completely literally, just that people will often avoid macro games with Idra, his macro is great, and he has beaten some extremely good players in macro games. It was a slight exaggeration to make a point. I'm sure the fact that Bomber "outmacroed" Idra is of great comfort to him. He probably would have preferred to have won. yeah i guess players are avoiding micro games with marineking and decisionmaking games vs mvp and multitask games vs mma? an early rush that transitions into longer game well is not out of trying to avoid something, Kas beat him cuz he felt like he could punish idra for his greedy play, which is funny because idra had the same weakness a year ago and he didn't fix it in one year. not because he was afraid of idra's macro. if anything, kas' macro was on par with idra's, his multitasking was way worse, not his macro. idra's macro is good, but show me a top foreigner who has got bad macro nowadays
This discussion is getting progressively more and more daft. It's obvious that he killed him because he thought he could. As far as I remember, Idra won all of the macro games in that series with Kas (I missed one or two in the second set). I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make, I'm talking about macro games, not necessarily commenting on whether someone has good or bad macro. You even gave the example of a player who had excellent macro, losing a macro game to Idra. Kas lost the longer, macro games, partly because his Thor timing was a bit off, partly because Idra's muta control is good, party because Idra and zerg in general are stronger late game against Terran. It doesn't matter if you lose to poor multitasking, poor decision making, or questionable build order decisions, it's still the same end result, and a product of the type of game that Idra is good at, and on the flip side, often vulnerable in the early game.
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On November 15 2011 00:22 scruffeh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 23:34 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 22:44 scruffeh wrote:On November 14 2011 22:22 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 21:55 scruffeh wrote:On November 14 2011 21:35 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 19:10 scruffeh wrote:On November 14 2011 18:20 purpose wrote:On November 14 2011 07:06 UberDrive wrote:Sigh... This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad. I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win. I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see. I like Idra and Kas, but it's a little bit feeble to tilt like this. Kas is a decent player and did well. I feel bad for Idra having to play on Xel'Naga, but that was the previous series, and the amount of ragequits that he did over the 2 series only served to motivate Kas. Idra has so much big tournament experience (more than Kas), and he should have done better. I can't think of a Terran in the world who would want to go in to a macro game with Idra, it's his strength, and Zerg's strength in general. It's not exactly a new or surprising strategy to try and do a lot of damage early on. i guess you feel bad for Kas too because he had to play on tal darim 0.9 where tvz is much worse statistically than zvt on xel'naga, right? and there are plenty of terrans who could easily beat him in a macro game, stop being ridiculous. macro might be his strength, but try to remember that in mlg vs bomber even though he won the series bomber was consistently outmacroing him, terran up on supply vs a macro zerg, that's cute isn't it. Yes, I do, but Kas isn't the tilt machine that Idra is, he can deal with playing on an unfavoured map. I never said it was impossible, and I would give any decent Korean Terran a chance in a macro game with him, I just meant that it's preferable to try and kill him early, so that's what people often try to do. I'm not sure what your point is with Bomber, he's one of the best macro players in the world, agreed, and Idra beat him, right? Idra also beet Puma in macro games recently. It's doable, but Idra's strength is obviously 3+ bases onwards. Bomber lost but he was outmacroing idra hard my point is that there are plenty of players who have just as good or better macro and you say "noone in the world would want to play him in late game" or something like that, which is a little bit too worshipy Hmm. Worshipy isn't actually a word, and outmacroing someone means nothing if you lose the macro game. If it's not clear already, what I said wasn't meant to be taken completely literally, just that people will often avoid macro games with Idra, his macro is great, and he has beaten some extremely good players in macro games. It was a slight exaggeration to make a point. I'm sure the fact that Bomber "outmacroed" Idra is of great comfort to him. He probably would have preferred to have won. yeah i guess players are avoiding micro games with marineking and decisionmaking games vs mvp and multitask games vs mma? an early rush that transitions into longer game well is not out of trying to avoid something, Kas beat him cuz he felt like he could punish idra for his greedy play, which is funny because idra had the same weakness a year ago and he didn't fix it in one year. not because he was afraid of idra's macro. if anything, kas' macro was on par with idra's, his multitasking was way worse, not his macro. idra's macro is good, but show me a top foreigner who has got bad macro nowadays This discussion is getting progressively more and more daft. It's obvious that he killed him because he thought he could. As far as I remember, Idra won all of the macro games in that series with Kas (I missed one or two in the second set). I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make, I'm talking about macro games, not necessarily commenting on whether someone has good or bad macro. You even gave the example of a player who had excellent macro, losing a macro game to Idra. Kas lost the longer, macro games, partly because his Thor timing was a bit off, partly because Idra's muta control is good, party because Idra and zerg in general are stronger late game against Terran. It doesn't matter if you lose to poor multitasking, poor decision making, or questionable build order decisions, it's still the same end result, and a product of the type of game that Idra is good at, and on the flip side, often vulnerable in the early game.
ok, i explain it clearly:
winning in a macro game is not equal with "having better macro". kas' macro is among the best
idra won the macro games, but not because his macro was better, rather because other aspects of his play was better. also note that tal'darim 0.9 is a hugely zerg favored map, people keep forgetting that but i've seen like 20 posts whining about xel'naga
i'm only explaining this cuz you or some other guy implied that people are afraid of getting into a macro game with idra, which is simply not true.
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On November 15 2011 00:17 phrenzy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 14 2011 23:52 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 23:45 phrenzy wrote:
I dont give shit, he can call him whatever he wants. It doesn't change the end result.
Personally, yeah its sad to see him lose like that. And as a zerg only player a part wept. But fuck, it was entertaining. And just on a strategic level im surprised idra didn't expect something similar to game 1. It woulda been pretty obvious since Kas couldn't match idra's macro. That isnt a knock on Kas, he is a decent player to say the least, its just my observation.
So thinking what the players would do next, idra as always goes for the macro style muta ling bane and defeating Kas in game 2 it would be expected Kas would resort to whatever it took to beat him.... just like in game 1.
As a zerg player who is a big fan of idras macro, terran players please punish him with cheesy all-ins every game.
1. For some entertaining BM.
and
2. When the day comes and he finally decides to wise-up and do something other than mega macro muta ling bane, i can learn from it. how did he not match him in macro? his supply was always almost even with idra's. his muta defense and multitasking was poor, his thor timing was late, mutas picked him apart in the tal'darim game (i don't remember the other). he wasn't able to secure a 4th base but that was after idra got like 20 mutas, killed his armory repeatedly etc, that's not a macro mistake Kas' macro is actually his strong point, he is one of the terrans that expands most agressively and usually outmacros everyone. Marines last time i check were pretty good against mutas, Thors are great and do great amounts of splash especially if you target central mutas that arent boxed but Kas was mainly going mainly bio, and cheap and cheerful stimmed marines are pretty good against mutas (especially if they got upgrades). Kas macro might be his strong point, i just dont think its as good as idras. Glad he won though
yeah of course that is true however we can agree that having bad defense vs mutas is not really a macro problem, which is basically what i said
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On November 15 2011 00:32 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 00:22 scruffeh wrote:On November 14 2011 23:34 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 22:44 scruffeh wrote:On November 14 2011 22:22 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 21:55 scruffeh wrote:On November 14 2011 21:35 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 19:10 scruffeh wrote:On November 14 2011 18:20 purpose wrote:On November 14 2011 07:06 UberDrive wrote:Sigh... This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad. I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win. I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see. I like Idra and Kas, but it's a little bit feeble to tilt like this. Kas is a decent player and did well. I feel bad for Idra having to play on Xel'Naga, but that was the previous series, and the amount of ragequits that he did over the 2 series only served to motivate Kas. Idra has so much big tournament experience (more than Kas), and he should have done better. I can't think of a Terran in the world who would want to go in to a macro game with Idra, it's his strength, and Zerg's strength in general. It's not exactly a new or surprising strategy to try and do a lot of damage early on. i guess you feel bad for Kas too because he had to play on tal darim 0.9 where tvz is much worse statistically than zvt on xel'naga, right? and there are plenty of terrans who could easily beat him in a macro game, stop being ridiculous. macro might be his strength, but try to remember that in mlg vs bomber even though he won the series bomber was consistently outmacroing him, terran up on supply vs a macro zerg, that's cute isn't it. Yes, I do, but Kas isn't the tilt machine that Idra is, he can deal with playing on an unfavoured map. I never said it was impossible, and I would give any decent Korean Terran a chance in a macro game with him, I just meant that it's preferable to try and kill him early, so that's what people often try to do. I'm not sure what your point is with Bomber, he's one of the best macro players in the world, agreed, and Idra beat him, right? Idra also beet Puma in macro games recently. It's doable, but Idra's strength is obviously 3+ bases onwards. Bomber lost but he was outmacroing idra hard my point is that there are plenty of players who have just as good or better macro and you say "noone in the world would want to play him in late game" or something like that, which is a little bit too worshipy Hmm. Worshipy isn't actually a word, and outmacroing someone means nothing if you lose the macro game. If it's not clear already, what I said wasn't meant to be taken completely literally, just that people will often avoid macro games with Idra, his macro is great, and he has beaten some extremely good players in macro games. It was a slight exaggeration to make a point. I'm sure the fact that Bomber "outmacroed" Idra is of great comfort to him. He probably would have preferred to have won. yeah i guess players are avoiding micro games with marineking and decisionmaking games vs mvp and multitask games vs mma? an early rush that transitions into longer game well is not out of trying to avoid something, Kas beat him cuz he felt like he could punish idra for his greedy play, which is funny because idra had the same weakness a year ago and he didn't fix it in one year. not because he was afraid of idra's macro. if anything, kas' macro was on par with idra's, his multitasking was way worse, not his macro. idra's macro is good, but show me a top foreigner who has got bad macro nowadays This discussion is getting progressively more and more daft. It's obvious that he killed him because he thought he could. As far as I remember, Idra won all of the macro games in that series with Kas (I missed one or two in the second set). I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make, I'm talking about macro games, not necessarily commenting on whether someone has good or bad macro. You even gave the example of a player who had excellent macro, losing a macro game to Idra. Kas lost the longer, macro games, partly because his Thor timing was a bit off, partly because Idra's muta control is good, party because Idra and zerg in general are stronger late game against Terran. It doesn't matter if you lose to poor multitasking, poor decision making, or questionable build order decisions, it's still the same end result, and a product of the type of game that Idra is good at, and on the flip side, often vulnerable in the early game. ok, i explain it clearly: winning in a macro game is not equal with "having better macro". kas' macro is among the best idra won the macro games, but not because his macro was better, rather because other aspects of his play was better. also note that tal'darim 0.9 is a hugely zerg favored map, people keep forgetting that but i've seen like 20 posts whining about xel'naga i'm only explaining this cuz you or some other guy implied that people are afraid of getting into a macro game with idra, which is simply not true.
Wow, you've succeeded at being patronising, and just repeating what I said back at me! You're confusing the act of macro with getting in to macro (long) games. You've even rephrased what I said in my post above to show that you understand that winning a long (macro) game isn't just about who can build the most units. If Terran players aren't afraid of getting in to long games with Idra, then they should be, it's his strength and he often cuts corners to get in to an even stronger late game position. Bomber thought he could do it, and couldn't, Kas couldn't do it, Puma has lost, and even MMA was a little fortunate that Idra gg'd prematurely.
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The macro games between idra and kas were pretty much like this:
Idra didn't play very safe, so he could easily crush every midgame marine/tank push and after that Idra was ahead and Kas didn't manage to come back.
I don't understand why Idra always has to BM. If he thinks that he is so much better than Kas, he should ask himsef why he lost 4 games against him. Maybe he should work on his builds and his scouting instead of blaming other things for his losses.
It's nice to play greedy, because it makes you look good in the mid- and lategame, but it's not the only way to play the game.
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No VODS yet for the Finals?
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On November 14 2011 10:52 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 07:51 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:46 norlock wrote:On November 14 2011 07:43 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:42 Deckkie wrote:On November 14 2011 07:41 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:32 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 07:28 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:26 AIOL! wrote:On November 14 2011 07:16 4Servy wrote:
kas is a better player than idra overall I think so I dont see why all this whine is needed. I can win with zerg vs top terrans to if idd just make 80 drones everygame 1 spine, 4 bases and get all tech infrastructure and hope people dont attack me. I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2) How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now? achievements =/= level of play it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performanceidra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot. your " imo" proofs his point. Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough? Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet. Fair enough, actually. This is the part where it's annoying because my opinion sort of differs from yours, but yeah. I'll actually give you this one. Sorry if I seemed rabid at some point during the discussion. my point was that until both kas and idra play bo7s with 20 random top players from all race and eachother and enter the same tournaments, there is no way to prove idra is better, especially since they play different races. idra has more major success, everyone knows that. kas' achievements are not as major but good none the less, he wins a lesser tournament every week or so and makes 300-500 euros this way, which is probably better for him cuz he is from ukraine where that money is really good and probably empire doesn't even give a salary while EG gives money/tickets everything to idra. they're different players, Idra has huge lan experience, Kas has nerve problems, and they didn't prove themselves at equal conditions repeatedly for a large enough sample size to tell which of the 2 is better. i find it a bit annoying that a lot of people write these online heroes off, because you know Stephano is one too who who won more money in 2 weeks than idra in his whole sc2 career, and Nerchio is one too, who is 4-0 vs idra and consistently beats very top players who have a good record against idra- but people say nooo idra is 100 times better! there is no real evidence and it's disrespectful to these players. it's like saying if i can lift 3000 kilos i'm not the strongest man in the world until i do it in front of a large audience, which is silly, cuz obviously i'm the strongest anyway, just don't have a paper of it. you can have your opinion that idra is better, but if you think i'm stupid if i have a different one, when there is no bloody evidence, that's not clever and nice.
There is an old saying from the FPS community, do it on lan. Online heros will never be as regarded as LAN champions, it's just the way it is. Claiming you have nerve issues so you can't win is a joke, controlling your emotions and playing well when it counts is part of the skill of being a champ. They can win all the online cups and collect all the payouts in the world but they will never be respected like LAN champions.
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On November 15 2011 01:32 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 10:52 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 07:51 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:46 norlock wrote:On November 14 2011 07:43 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:42 Deckkie wrote:On November 14 2011 07:41 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:32 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 07:28 KvltMan wrote:On November 14 2011 07:26 AIOL! wrote:
[quote]
I am agree with you + overall kas is way more solide than idra against players weaker than him ( never less than 80% ratio in EU server since the beta of SC2) How is the guy that has never beaten a single Korean and who has only one LAN victory better than IdrA? Are you actually being serious right now? achievements =/= level of play it's a subjective matter, why can't someone think one player is better than the other when there is no true evidence. and no, the fact that kas doesn't enter as many tournaments as idra is not evidence cuz it has nothing to do with performanceidra has better achievements- this is a fact idra is a better player- this is not a fact it's so simple, try not to rage if someone doesn't think that your favorite player is the best in the world It kind of does, a LAN takes more effort to win than an online cup, imo. And I don't hate Kas, not at all. But saying that he is better than someone who has proven that he can stand on equal footing with some of the best players in the world at LANs says a lot. your " imo" proofs his point. Ok, the fact that you have to account for having to travel, fighting jet-lag and also being in a tournament setting, playing in front of a live set of people makes the LAN a better proving ground than an online cup. Good enough? Doesn't that proof that he is the better player in those settings? The better player can only be the better player if he proofs in both offline and online tournaments that he is better, well that has not been proven yet. Fair enough, actually. This is the part where it's annoying because my opinion sort of differs from yours, but yeah. I'll actually give you this one. Sorry if I seemed rabid at some point during the discussion. my point was that until both kas and idra play bo7s with 20 random top players from all race and eachother and enter the same tournaments, there is no way to prove idra is better, especially since they play different races. idra has more major success, everyone knows that. kas' achievements are not as major but good none the less, he wins a lesser tournament every week or so and makes 300-500 euros this way, which is probably better for him cuz he is from ukraine where that money is really good and probably empire doesn't even give a salary while EG gives money/tickets everything to idra. they're different players, Idra has huge lan experience, Kas has nerve problems, and they didn't prove themselves at equal conditions repeatedly for a large enough sample size to tell which of the 2 is better. i find it a bit annoying that a lot of people write these online heroes off, because you know Stephano is one too who who won more money in 2 weeks than idra in his whole sc2 career, and Nerchio is one too, who is 4-0 vs idra and consistently beats very top players who have a good record against idra- but people say nooo idra is 100 times better! there is no real evidence and it's disrespectful to these players. it's like saying if i can lift 3000 kilos i'm not the strongest man in the world until i do it in front of a large audience, which is silly, cuz obviously i'm the strongest anyway, just don't have a paper of it. you can have your opinion that idra is better, but if you think i'm stupid if i have a different one, when there is no bloody evidence, that's not clever and nice. There is an old saying from the FPS community, do it on lan. Online heros will never be as regarded as LAN champions, it's just the way it is. Claiming you have nerve issues so you can't win is a joke, controlling your emotions and playing well when it counts is part of the skill of being a champ. They can win all the online cups and collect all the payouts in the world but they will never be respected like LAN champions.
What are you saying makes no sense. You're saying eSports will never be respected as Sports? Stop hurting eSports.
"There's an old saying in the real world, play real sports..." -_-
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On November 15 2011 00:49 scruffeh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 00:32 msjakofsky wrote:On November 15 2011 00:22 scruffeh wrote:On November 14 2011 23:34 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 22:44 scruffeh wrote:On November 14 2011 22:22 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 21:55 scruffeh wrote:On November 14 2011 21:35 msjakofsky wrote:On November 14 2011 19:10 scruffeh wrote:On November 14 2011 18:20 purpose wrote:
[quote]
This is what he said. No gg is one thing, but this is just to much. Tbh Idra looked like he was getting better and then this. Its just sad to see how idra behaves. If you are at this level, calling someone awful and claiming that he wins only due to imb is just sad.
I mean I dont see Idra apologizing when he win with stupied zerg builds that atm are just shit strong. The game is what it is, its not Kas fault that Terran can do that. He does what he has to do to win.
I honestly do not understand how anybody can support Idra. He is a shame to esport tbh and just act so immature. Its really just sad to see. I like Idra and Kas, but it's a little bit feeble to tilt like this. Kas is a decent player and did well. I feel bad for Idra having to play on Xel'Naga, but that was the previous series, and the amount of ragequits that he did over the 2 series only served to motivate Kas. Idra has so much big tournament experience (more than Kas), and he should have done better. I can't think of a Terran in the world who would want to go in to a macro game with Idra, it's his strength, and Zerg's strength in general. It's not exactly a new or surprising strategy to try and do a lot of damage early on. i guess you feel bad for Kas too because he had to play on tal darim 0.9 where tvz is much worse statistically than zvt on xel'naga, right? and there are plenty of terrans who could easily beat him in a macro game, stop being ridiculous. macro might be his strength, but try to remember that in mlg vs bomber even though he won the series bomber was consistently outmacroing him, terran up on supply vs a macro zerg, that's cute isn't it. Yes, I do, but Kas isn't the tilt machine that Idra is, he can deal with playing on an unfavoured map. I never said it was impossible, and I would give any decent Korean Terran a chance in a macro game with him, I just meant that it's preferable to try and kill him early, so that's what people often try to do. I'm not sure what your point is with Bomber, he's one of the best macro players in the world, agreed, and Idra beat him, right? Idra also beet Puma in macro games recently. It's doable, but Idra's strength is obviously 3+ bases onwards. Bomber lost but he was outmacroing idra hard my point is that there are plenty of players who have just as good or better macro and you say "noone in the world would want to play him in late game" or something like that, which is a little bit too worshipy Hmm. Worshipy isn't actually a word, and outmacroing someone means nothing if you lose the macro game. If it's not clear already, what I said wasn't meant to be taken completely literally, just that people will often avoid macro games with Idra, his macro is great, and he has beaten some extremely good players in macro games. It was a slight exaggeration to make a point. I'm sure the fact that Bomber "outmacroed" Idra is of great comfort to him. He probably would have preferred to have won. yeah i guess players are avoiding micro games with marineking and decisionmaking games vs mvp and multitask games vs mma? an early rush that transitions into longer game well is not out of trying to avoid something, Kas beat him cuz he felt like he could punish idra for his greedy play, which is funny because idra had the same weakness a year ago and he didn't fix it in one year. not because he was afraid of idra's macro. if anything, kas' macro was on par with idra's, his multitasking was way worse, not his macro. idra's macro is good, but show me a top foreigner who has got bad macro nowadays This discussion is getting progressively more and more daft. It's obvious that he killed him because he thought he could. As far as I remember, Idra won all of the macro games in that series with Kas (I missed one or two in the second set). I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make, I'm talking about macro games, not necessarily commenting on whether someone has good or bad macro. You even gave the example of a player who had excellent macro, losing a macro game to Idra. Kas lost the longer, macro games, partly because his Thor timing was a bit off, partly because Idra's muta control is good, party because Idra and zerg in general are stronger late game against Terran. It doesn't matter if you lose to poor multitasking, poor decision making, or questionable build order decisions, it's still the same end result, and a product of the type of game that Idra is good at, and on the flip side, often vulnerable in the early game. ok, i explain it clearly: winning in a macro game is not equal with "having better macro". kas' macro is among the best idra won the macro games, but not because his macro was better, rather because other aspects of his play was better. also note that tal'darim 0.9 is a hugely zerg favored map, people keep forgetting that but i've seen like 20 posts whining about xel'naga i'm only explaining this cuz you or some other guy implied that people are afraid of getting into a macro game with idra, which is simply not true. Wow, you've succeeded at being patronising, and just repeating what I said back at me! You're confusing the act of macro with getting in to macro (long) games. You've even rephrased what I said in my post above to show that you understand that winning a long (macro) game isn't just about who can build the most units. If Terran players aren't afraid of getting in to long games with Idra, then they should be, it's his strength and he often cuts corners to get in to an even stronger late game position. Bomber thought he could do it, and couldn't, Kas couldn't do it, Puma has lost, and even MMA was a little fortunate that Idra gg'd prematurely.
since i already said that a few posts above yours, didn't you repeat me first?
and btw bomber is 3-2 vs idra, and kas beat him lat time they met in a legit macro game, he is 0-2 vs MMA who killed his own cc in one of the games which could be seen as a silly mistake just like idra's premature gg, so it's a little bit exaggerating to say "MMA was lucky". i know idra's late game zvt is strong, but you're trying to make him seem some kind of superhuman which he isn't, that's the only thing bothering me, he gets beaten by terrans after early game quite often.
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EPT
