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On October 06 2011 00:46 Poopi wrote:
I didn't follow BW but I heard someone not so long ago when LosirA won code A against SuperNova, who said that SuperNova was almost as, or as good as Mvp was on BW when he switched for SC2. Is that true?
If so, explains why he is posting good results now.
Nada always calls out Supernova as one of the most impressive SC2 Terrans out there. And although ladder ranking can't be used as the sole measure of skill, Supernova has consistently been ranked highly, or at the very least boasted a very impressive ratio!
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fuck!! Cmon DRG lol. Looks like I have a bunch of protoss to watch at least. 
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On October 06 2011 00:44 bigbeau wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 00:41 -Archangel- wrote:On October 06 2011 00:37 bigbeau wrote:
Okay this is my problem with DRG. He keep being proclaimed great, but yet has no results. He's barely code S level in my eyes, and he didn't even really earn a spot there (not because MLG isn't earning it, but because he got 4th and everyone in front of him was already in code S). I just don't get how someone can be called one of the best players when they have almost zero tangible results. He was 3rd. People in front him were two of the best Terrans in the world. He is also by far the best GSTL player so far. He won a LG tournament and was in the finals of AoL. He also went through his Ro32 group like through butter. I'm sorry, but do you notice how the only actual result is that LG tournament, which half the players weren't even in because it was during the Super Tournament. GSTL doesn't matter in terms of single player tournaments and AoL was a popularity invite type thing. Yes ro32 too, but Leenock made it through ro32. I'm not saying he's terribad; he's not. But everyone has been talking about him incessantly as if he's the greatest player in the world, or one of them, when he has no results, which is all that matters.
Wait...GSTL doesn't matter? Do you realize that DRG is almost the sole reason MvP is in the finals? I think the only match where DRG wasn't the main factor in his team winning was their recent match against NSHoseo. The team league may not be quite as prestigious as the regular gsl. but to be so consistent in such a volatile environment that even includes code S players deserves considerable recognition. It practically is a single-player tournament in DRG's case. Could probably name a good 10 players less deserving of code S than DRG.
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On October 06 2011 00:15 Daralii wrote:
Leenock calling David Kim out on Twitter about ultras. >.>
DongRaeGu complained about ultras too:
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee
RT: @MVPDongRaeGu: Let's see if I ever make Ultrash ever again seriously argh
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How the hell Nestea always somehow gets the easier opponent, it seems? (Though he'll have to fight MVP next round) TvT finals in the making, cool.
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On October 06 2011 00:56 bigbeau wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 00:47 Crushinator wrote:On October 06 2011 00:37 bigbeau wrote:
Okay this is my problem with DRG. He keep being proclaimed great, but yet has no results. He's barely code S level in my eyes, and he didn't even really earn a spot there (not because MLG isn't earning it, but because he got 4th and everyone in front of him was already in code S). I just don't get how someone can be called one of the best players when they have almost zero tangible results. Because people can look at DRGs play and SEE that it is good. His mutalisks are better than anyone elses, his counter attacks the most effective. Watching most of DRG's ZvT I feel like he is in complete control. The best players do not always win. In short, people proclaim that DRG is great because they aren't blind. That's the problem though. If a player is better than another and yet loses, there must be a reason. I might have control throughout the whole game against a worse player, then accidentally move command my whole army and lose. Misclick or gigantic mistake is one reason. Another reason is build order loss/lack of scouting important tech. This is a kind of mistake, but somethings are just build order losses. The only other reason is balance, so if you're claiming the better player doesn't always win, and it's not one of the previous reasons, there must be an imbalance. If you watch everything a player does over his shoulder, sure you can see if he's good, but we don't do that, we watch him through an observers POV. That means we don't see everything he does, and every mistake he makes. Just because his mutalisks are better than anyone, or counter attacks, doesn't mean he's better or is playing better if he's making mistakes that are off the screen.
Thats a pretty terrible conclusion, even if the game was perfectly balanced the best player would not always win. There a truly massive amount variables that determine the outcome of Starcraft game and not all of them can be controlled, some of it comes down to chance. Even a random foreign grandmaster will take a (non-cheese) game off a GSL champion if they play enough times. If Supernova and DRG would play again tomorrow I would still consider DRG a favorite to win that.
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Wow, just watched the Supernova vs DRG game and I'm tremendously happy!!! 
Never liked DRG since I don't appreciate his cocky demeanor and the over hype that surrounds him.
And I can't believe how he botched set1. That is a lesson for over-confidence!
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On October 06 2011 00:45 KimJongChill wrote:
OMFG, how did DRG lose to supernova O.o He's been pretty unimpressive since his Code A appearance omgosh...
The third game was pretty anti-climactic actually 
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Ah, I remember this quote from Fionn:
If DongRaeGu wants to be considered one of the best players in the world, he needs to beat Supernova. No ifs, ands, or buts.
DRG has been massively hyped, but look at his results in the individual leagues:
- Last GSL, knocked out in Code A by JYP in the ro16. Qualifies to Code S through the "easy way" MLG, and sneaks in by finishing 3rd. Fortunately for him, those ahead of him are already Code S.
- Loses to Supernova, a player who never had good results in TvZ.
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On October 06 2011 01:15 Azzur wrote:Ah, I remember this quote from Fionn: Show nested quote +If DongRaeGu wants to be considered one of the best players in the world, he needs to beat Supernova. No ifs, ands, or buts. DRG has been massively hyped, but look at his results in the individual leagues: - Last GSL, knocked out in Code A by JYP in the ro16. Qualifies to Code S through the "easy way" MLG, and sneaks in by finishing 3rd. Fortunately for him, those ahead of him are already Code S. - Loses to Supernova, a player who never had good results in TvZ.
Supernova, 7-3 in the last 10, not bad IMO
JYP is no joke, his PvZ is amazing, he will be code S, his PvT is just sucking
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On October 06 2011 00:53 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 00:50 Bagi wrote:
DRG is a good player and belongs in Code S, but there is no doubt in my mind that the foreigner community overrates him. That's what happens when a Korean player takes part in many foreigner tournaments, HerO is similar.
Nestea, Losira, July and Coca are all better than him. DRG initially became popular because some of his play was streamed on TL and showcased some pretty innovative Zerg tactics.
You have got to be kidding. DRG and innovative do not go together. He's just really good at standard Muta/ling/bling and taking a quick 3rd against Terran. His vP is bad and vZ is ok. DRG got overhyped because TL is full of zerg players and they wanted a new hope that was not Terran or Nestea.
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Wow Supernova takes down DRG! That's a surprise. DRG had a good shot with all these terrans. I did not expect Supernova to be the one to take him out. I'm also surprised by Nestea losing a game to virus. I know it's his weakest matchup, but I wouldn't think Virus would be the one to take a game off of him.
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On October 06 2011 01:22 chrisgreg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 01:15 Azzur wrote:Ah, I remember this quote from Fionn: If DongRaeGu wants to be considered one of the best players in the world, he needs to beat Supernova. No ifs, ands, or buts. DRG has been massively hyped, but look at his results in the individual leagues: - Last GSL, knocked out in Code A by JYP in the ro16. Qualifies to Code S through the "easy way" MLG, and sneaks in by finishing 3rd. Fortunately for him, those ahead of him are already Code S. - Loses to Supernova, a player who never had good results in TvZ. Supernova, 7-3 in the last 10, not bad IMO JYP is no joke, his PvZ is amazing, he will be code S, his PvT is just sucking
I'm sorry but those two statements can not both be facts at this point in time. MAYBE He'll make it through the up and downs this time (and I say a big maybe) but with bad PvT he'll get knocked right back into them in November.
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HAHHAA i bet those people who voted DRG's zvt > nestea's zvt are feeling very dumb atm 
dont even compare the 2...1's first time in code s, while the other is a 3 time GSL champion
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Yes! Nestea and MVP! sad that DRG didn't make it though
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On October 06 2011 01:25 bucckevin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 00:53 Jumbled wrote:On October 06 2011 00:50 Bagi wrote:
DRG is a good player and belongs in Code S, but there is no doubt in my mind that the foreigner community overrates him. That's what happens when a Korean player takes part in many foreigner tournaments, HerO is similar.
Nestea, Losira, July and Coca are all better than him. DRG initially became popular because some of his play was streamed on TL and showcased some pretty innovative Zerg tactics. You have got to be kidding. DRG and innovative do not go together. He's just really good at standard Muta/ling/bling and taking a quick 3rd against Terran. His vP is bad and vZ is ok. DRG got overhyped because TL is full of zerg players and they wanted a new hope that was not Terran or Nestea.
hes not overhyped. DRG is freakin good. he just doesnt have the results yet. hes the 2nd best zerg in the world. how can the 2nd best zerg in the world possibly be overhyped? thats bullshit. people/haters are expecting way too much out of these guys and thats just bullshit.
and dude im not even a DRG fan...
wow there are guys who think because of this loss that NesTeas ZvT is better than DRGs. my brain hurts.
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Game 3 of NesTea vs Virus was indeed really good but in my opinio it's not the best I've seen so far
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"Nestea's worst matchup is his ZvT"
"Losira lost because his ZvT sucks"
"DRG is overrated, he's no good"
"July is no good, his ZvT is bad, he could have won, but just engaged really badly in that game!"
"Leenock's TvZ is overrated, he played poorly"
"Zerg Player X lost to poor engagements, it's his fault, he lost too many Mutas that one time"
Is there a Zerg who can consistently win against Code S Terrans anymore? All these players are just bad at ZvT, and all the Code S Terrans are just geniuses with overflowing talent?
How many games have we seen lately where the Zerg with massive supply/worker advantage can't close the game?
How many games have we seen where Terran doesn't kill a single Drone, but is ahead of Zerg in macro and can afford to keep throwing away armies until the Zerg can't keep up anymore?
And how many games have we seen, where Terran had a 20 food supply advantage, and couldn't win the game?
Why is it that it's always the Zerg player who loses due to "poor engagements"?
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On October 06 2011 00:02 Trizz wrote:
4/4 liquidbet aww yeah, just as i predicted.
supernova is underrated and dongreagu's zvt is being figured out.
What the hell does "donraegu's zvt is being figured out" mean?
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On October 06 2011 01:07 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 00:56 bigbeau wrote:On October 06 2011 00:47 Crushinator wrote:On October 06 2011 00:37 bigbeau wrote:
Okay this is my problem with DRG. He keep being proclaimed great, but yet has no results. He's barely code S level in my eyes, and he didn't even really earn a spot there (not because MLG isn't earning it, but because he got 4th and everyone in front of him was already in code S). I just don't get how someone can be called one of the best players when they have almost zero tangible results. Because people can look at DRGs play and SEE that it is good. His mutalisks are better than anyone elses, his counter attacks the most effective. Watching most of DRG's ZvT I feel like he is in complete control. The best players do not always win. In short, people proclaim that DRG is great because they aren't blind. That's the problem though. If a player is better than another and yet loses, there must be a reason. I might have control throughout the whole game against a worse player, then accidentally move command my whole army and lose. Misclick or gigantic mistake is one reason. Another reason is build order loss/lack of scouting important tech. This is a kind of mistake, but somethings are just build order losses. The only other reason is balance, so if you're claiming the better player doesn't always win, and it's not one of the previous reasons, there must be an imbalance. If you watch everything a player does over his shoulder, sure you can see if he's good, but we don't do that, we watch him through an observers POV. That means we don't see everything he does, and every mistake he makes. Just because his mutalisks are better than anyone, or counter attacks, doesn't mean he's better or is playing better if he's making mistakes that are off the screen. Thats a pretty terrible conclusion, even if the game was perfectly balanced the best player would not always win. There a truly massive amount variables that determine the outcome of Starcraft game and not all of them can be controlled, some of it comes down to chance. Even a random foreign grandmaster will take a (non-cheese) game off a GSL champion if they play enough times. If Supernova and DRG would play again tomorrow I would still consider DRG a favorite to win that.
What I meant is not necessarily the better player in the sense of a video game-type rating, but who is playing better in the specific game. The 3 things I stated were ways to lose a game if you are playing better that game. Yes, a random foreign grandmaster will take a game off a GSL champion, but he will have played better than the GSL champion in that specific game. So, if you looked at only that single game as the extension of both of their skills, the GSL champion would be the worse overall player.
What you're saying is a player who's better overall will lose a game to a worse overall player, to which I say: Only if the worse overall player is playing better, except for the 3 above ways to lose a game that youre outplaying the opponent. But at which point does a player who's better overall become worse overall by continually losing to worse overall players? If DRG looks like hes outplaying his opponent EVERY game, and he's not making any obvious scouting errors, misclicks, or what have you, then how can you claim he's a better player?
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EPT
