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Balance whine equals ban; good posting equals happy community and moderator |
Canada13407 Posts
On September 08 2011 05:07 ppshchik wrote:Terran is the most mechanically demanding race in the high level if you have MVP's or MMA's mechanics. Even mechanical Zergs like IdrA or Losira just max out, attack, remax, attack etc....it's boring. Multitasking > Macro in Sc2 since passive macro is nothing special with MBS imo.... Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 05:00 JKira wrote:All balance whining aside, I didn't realize MC has so many anti-fans. Just wondering why that is. Is it cause he is cocky? Cause IdrA seems to only gain fans from that attitude. Is it cause he does allins frequently? Cause he pretty much allins as much as Bomber does and I'm pretty sure no one can question his macro games. It's just a bit disheartening to see pretty much the only Protoss hope in GSL fall to Code A and people saying he deserves it  Western SC2 fans + internet anonymity = Fair Weather Fans. Look at how Jinro's fanbase changed when he got into 2 Ro4's and when he fell down to Code A/B
Hey I still love Jinro and will always cheer for the gorilla Terran whenever I get the chance
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On September 08 2011 05:13 Trealador wrote:Check got screwed in a 3 way tie check and jakjji both beat Losira and should have advanced. Poor decision to make them play the tie breaker instead of going with the obvious.
Check lost to Losira in their first game.
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On September 08 2011 04:53 Severus_ wrote:
Yes MC in Code A got tired of everybody defending this guy he is so bad...
Seriously? The guy with the most prize money in sc2 drops down to code A and you think is that bad? Then who is actually good?
Yes most prize money =/= the best in the world, but surely you can't constantly win money being "So Bad".
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On September 08 2011 05:13 Trealador wrote:Check got screwed in a 3 way tie check and jakjji both beat Losira and should have advanced. Poor decision to make them play the tie breaker instead of going with the obvious.
Lol no.
They were 3-1, only losing to 1 of the remaining 2.
Then in the tiebreaker, they tied once, and Check was beaten twice in the second.
Cannot see the obvious.
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On September 08 2011 04:57 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 04:54 babylon wrote:On September 08 2011 04:51 Olinim wrote:On September 08 2011 04:50 babylon wrote:On September 08 2011 04:40 Olinim wrote:On September 08 2011 04:39 aresendez88 wrote:On September 08 2011 04:32 Olinim wrote:On September 08 2011 04:29 pt wrote:On September 08 2011 02:14 Olinim wrote:On September 08 2011 02:09 proot wrote:
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People like you crack me up. You can't see that MC has not been playing well recently. You can't see that MC did not play well today. The worst part of your mentality is, you're so convinced protoss is a shitty race that you can't factor in the skills of other players when they win.
And sorry, MC wouldn't have won a championship as terran. He won his championship off of 4 gate and timing attacks that were very unknown at the time. Once players figured him out, he started losing quite a bit. Sure, he'd be good, but the best? The guy barely cut it as a progamer in BW. Don't get me wrong, he's talented, but obviously way less talented than players like mvp, losira, and puzzle.
Less talented than puzzle and losira who have only won code a? get the hell out. Seriously what has puzzle done? MC is the only person who innovated protoss at all. The only protoss to win GSL. MC IS protoss. It isn't about results. Its about skill. Only way to actually measure skill when we're debating over a forum. You can say "lol puzzle is so much more skilled...I see it in the way he plays..." I disagree and remind you that MC is the most successful sc2 player so far, and your opinion about losira/puzzles talent really becomes meaningless in the face of actual results :/ MC WAS the most successful SC2 player a few months ago. Since his peak he has since been passed up in titles both at home in Korea and abroad by Nestea and MVP who are both playing much better and consistently than he is. We're talking overall. He still has the most money and most major tournament placings/winnings. He still is the most successful player so far. Also MVP has 1 international title....how has he passed up MC "abroad" If tournament winnings were an accurate way to measure skill, one would still think that Moon is the best player in the world in WC3 currently, but he's not even the best NE in Korea. Just saying. Anyways, I don't think that Protoss players are any worse than the Protoss or Zerg players, more that the race itself is badly designed so that you can't really ... do much with it, if that makes any sense at all. However, never fear, things are looking up! Protoss players and Zerg players completely outnumber the Terran players in Code A. Additionally, the following looks promising: On September 08 2011 04:02 Toadvine wrote:I was intrigued by this, and went through the rosters of major KR teams on TLPD, just tallying up the numbers of each race. I don't necessarily think this is the right sample space, perhaps something like Korean GM would be better? In any case, it comes down to the following: Terran: 60 Protoss: 55 Zerg: 48 Total: 163 Which gives a 37/34/29 distribution, percentage-wise. One interesting fact I've noted, skimming through those player lists, is that most of the Terran names are known to me, and are either in Code S or Code A, while I haven't even heard of a lot of the Protoss players. So yeah, we might not get any more Terrans in GSL, because the pro teams simply don't have any more.  I imagine the teams try to maintain a healthy race distribution for practice purposes, so unless they go on a crazy Terran shopping spree, we might reach a "Code S for Terrans, Code A for the other races" balanced state. I didn't say MC was the best player overall... I said he was the most successful. I thought this was you? On September 08 2011 04:32 Olinim wrote:
Only way to actually measure skill when we're debating over a forum. You can say "lol puzzle is so much more skilled...I see it in the way he plays..." I disagree and remind you that MC is the most successful sc2 player so far, and your opinion about losira/puzzles talent really becomes meaningless in the face of actual results :/ It's not perfect but when you're arguing over a forum there isn't much else. It's not like there is some giant obvious skill difference between MC and puzzle and all I'm saying is there is a reason why MC has won 210k and puzzle has won 1k.
It's hard to break through Code A qualifiers, and before you do that, it's difficult to get noticed unless a.) you do well in the GSTL, b.) have Artosis hyping the shit out of you, and c.) are unbelievably good. Once Puzzle made it into Code A, though, he shot to the top of the heap, just like Bomber, Losira, TOP, and Ganzi, who are are all amazing players in their own right.
People just like to keep saying that MC is unquestionably the best Protoss in the world, when, as you've said, there really isn't much that separates him from someone like Puzzle other than past results. Puzzle has lately just been playing better than MC. With the new patch coming out and Puzzle on SlayerS, I just see him getting better. MC will probably bounce back if he doesn't get a bad draw in the first round of Code A, though, so he's not out of the running yet. But both he and Alicia will have to shore up their plays if they want to outlast the naysayers.
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On September 08 2011 05:24 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 04:57 Olinim wrote:On September 08 2011 04:54 babylon wrote:On September 08 2011 04:51 Olinim wrote:On September 08 2011 04:50 babylon wrote:On September 08 2011 04:40 Olinim wrote:On September 08 2011 04:39 aresendez88 wrote:On September 08 2011 04:32 Olinim wrote:On September 08 2011 04:29 pt wrote:On September 08 2011 02:14 Olinim wrote:
[quote]
Less talented than puzzle and losira who have only won code a? get the hell out. Seriously what has puzzle done? MC is the only person who innovated protoss at all. The only protoss to win GSL. MC IS protoss. It isn't about results. Its about skill. Only way to actually measure skill when we're debating over a forum. You can say "lol puzzle is so much more skilled...I see it in the way he plays..." I disagree and remind you that MC is the most successful sc2 player so far, and your opinion about losira/puzzles talent really becomes meaningless in the face of actual results :/ MC WAS the most successful SC2 player a few months ago. Since his peak he has since been passed up in titles both at home in Korea and abroad by Nestea and MVP who are both playing much better and consistently than he is. We're talking overall. He still has the most money and most major tournament placings/winnings. He still is the most successful player so far. Also MVP has 1 international title....how has he passed up MC "abroad" If tournament winnings were an accurate way to measure skill, one would still think that Moon is the best player in the world in WC3 currently, but he's not even the best NE in Korea. Just saying. Anyways, I don't think that Protoss players are any worse than the Protoss or Zerg players, more that the race itself is badly designed so that you can't really ... do much with it, if that makes any sense at all. However, never fear, things are looking up! Protoss players and Zerg players completely outnumber the Terran players in Code A. Additionally, the following looks promising: On September 08 2011 04:02 Toadvine wrote:I was intrigued by this, and went through the rosters of major KR teams on TLPD, just tallying up the numbers of each race. I don't necessarily think this is the right sample space, perhaps something like Korean GM would be better? In any case, it comes down to the following: Terran: 60 Protoss: 55 Zerg: 48 Total: 163 Which gives a 37/34/29 distribution, percentage-wise. One interesting fact I've noted, skimming through those player lists, is that most of the Terran names are known to me, and are either in Code S or Code A, while I haven't even heard of a lot of the Protoss players. So yeah, we might not get any more Terrans in GSL, because the pro teams simply don't have any more. I imagine the teams try to maintain a healthy race distribution for practice purposes, so unless they go on a crazy Terran shopping spree, we might reach a "Code S for Terrans, Code A for the other races" balanced state. I didn't say MC was the best player overall... I said he was the most successful. I thought this was you? On September 08 2011 04:32 Olinim wrote:
Only way to actually measure skill when we're debating over a forum. You can say "lol puzzle is so much more skilled...I see it in the way he plays..." I disagree and remind you that MC is the most successful sc2 player so far, and your opinion about losira/puzzles talent really becomes meaningless in the face of actual results :/ It's not perfect but when you're arguing over a forum there isn't much else. It's not like there is some giant obvious skill difference between MC and puzzle and all I'm saying is there is a reason why MC has won 210k and puzzle has won 1k. It's hard to break through Code A qualifiers, and before you do that, it's difficult to get noticed unless a.) you do well in the GSTL, b.) have Artosis hyping the shit out of you, and c.) are unbelievably good. Once Puzzle made it into Code A, though, he shot to the top of the heap, just like Bomber, Losira, TOP, and Ganzi, who are are all amazing players in their own right. People just like to keep saying that MC is unquestionably the best Protoss in the world, when, as you've said, there really isn't much that separates him from someone like Puzzle other than past results. Puzzle has lately just been playing better than MC. With the new patch coming out and Puzzle on SlayerS, I just see him getting better. MC will probably bounce back if he doesn't get a bad draw in the first round of Code A, though, so he's not out of the running yet. But both he and Alicia will have to shore up their plays if they want to outlast the naysayers.
Not really. Puzzle's play against Ryung was mediocre. Also, don't completely disregard MC's teamleague wins and IEM run. He played well there, and Puzzle hasn't shown anything extraordinary IMO.
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Sadly, I'm getting bored/fed up with this game:| will probably stop watching once D3 is out. Recently, I've been only watching MLG...I don't know why that is, I certainly would like to keep interest in this game for as long as I can.
I have this feeling that it's not about the players and how good they are but the current state of the game. One race becomes dominant, Blizzard nerfs it and than that race goes into slump, and another one takes the dominant spot, gets nerfed and so on...Players are one day playing in Ro4 Code S, and next month they're in Code B. I think GomTV's system is ok, it's just that you don't have any guarantees that a really good player will be rewarded for his skills and efforts.
Meh:|
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sooner or later Protoss race has to be fixed.
It is GSL 2 all over again.
and i doubt this will change without major changes in P design (not buffs necessarily)
P right know is a way too predicable designed.
Sad days for protoss makes GSL alot less interesting 8/
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LETS GET IT GU GU GU ... GU GU GU!
Man waking up to 15 up/down matches (*accompanying hand gesture*) is better than Christmas <3
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On September 08 2011 05:27 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 05:24 babylon wrote:On September 08 2011 04:57 Olinim wrote:On September 08 2011 04:54 babylon wrote:On September 08 2011 04:51 Olinim wrote:On September 08 2011 04:50 babylon wrote:On September 08 2011 04:40 Olinim wrote:On September 08 2011 04:39 aresendez88 wrote:On September 08 2011 04:32 Olinim wrote:On September 08 2011 04:29 pt wrote:
[quote]
It isn't about results. Its about skill. Only way to actually measure skill when we're debating over a forum. You can say "lol puzzle is so much more skilled...I see it in the way he plays..." I disagree and remind you that MC is the most successful sc2 player so far, and your opinion about losira/puzzles talent really becomes meaningless in the face of actual results :/ MC WAS the most successful SC2 player a few months ago. Since his peak he has since been passed up in titles both at home in Korea and abroad by Nestea and MVP who are both playing much better and consistently than he is. We're talking overall. He still has the most money and most major tournament placings/winnings. He still is the most successful player so far. Also MVP has 1 international title....how has he passed up MC "abroad" If tournament winnings were an accurate way to measure skill, one would still think that Moon is the best player in the world in WC3 currently, but he's not even the best NE in Korea. Just saying. Anyways, I don't think that Protoss players are any worse than the Protoss or Zerg players, more that the race itself is badly designed so that you can't really ... do much with it, if that makes any sense at all. However, never fear, things are looking up! Protoss players and Zerg players completely outnumber the Terran players in Code A. Additionally, the following looks promising: On September 08 2011 04:02 Toadvine wrote:I was intrigued by this, and went through the rosters of major KR teams on TLPD, just tallying up the numbers of each race. I don't necessarily think this is the right sample space, perhaps something like Korean GM would be better? In any case, it comes down to the following: Terran: 60 Protoss: 55 Zerg: 48 Total: 163 Which gives a 37/34/29 distribution, percentage-wise. One interesting fact I've noted, skimming through those player lists, is that most of the Terran names are known to me, and are either in Code S or Code A, while I haven't even heard of a lot of the Protoss players. So yeah, we might not get any more Terrans in GSL, because the pro teams simply don't have any more. I imagine the teams try to maintain a healthy race distribution for practice purposes, so unless they go on a crazy Terran shopping spree, we might reach a "Code S for Terrans, Code A for the other races" balanced state. I didn't say MC was the best player overall... I said he was the most successful. I thought this was you? On September 08 2011 04:32 Olinim wrote:
Only way to actually measure skill when we're debating over a forum. You can say "lol puzzle is so much more skilled...I see it in the way he plays..." I disagree and remind you that MC is the most successful sc2 player so far, and your opinion about losira/puzzles talent really becomes meaningless in the face of actual results :/ It's not perfect but when you're arguing over a forum there isn't much else. It's not like there is some giant obvious skill difference between MC and puzzle and all I'm saying is there is a reason why MC has won 210k and puzzle has won 1k. It's hard to break through Code A qualifiers, and before you do that, it's difficult to get noticed unless a.) you do well in the GSTL, b.) have Artosis hyping the shit out of you, and c.) are unbelievably good. Once Puzzle made it into Code A, though, he shot to the top of the heap, just like Bomber, Losira, TOP, and Ganzi, who are are all amazing players in their own right. People just like to keep saying that MC is unquestionably the best Protoss in the world, when, as you've said, there really isn't much that separates him from someone like Puzzle other than past results. Puzzle has lately just been playing better than MC. With the new patch coming out and Puzzle on SlayerS, I just see him getting better. MC will probably bounce back if he doesn't get a bad draw in the first round of Code A, though, so he's not out of the running yet. But both he and Alicia will have to shore up their plays if they want to outlast the naysayers. Not really. Puzzle's play against Ryung was mediocre. Also, don't completely disregard MC's teamleague wins and IEM run. He played well there, and Puzzle hasn't shown anything extraordinary IMO.
Hey, man. Don't go back on your word. You said: "It's not like there is some giant obvious skill difference between MC and puzzle and all I'm saying is there is a reason why MC has won 210k and puzzle has won 1k." (Emphasis mine.)
MC won 210k because he was nigh-on untouchable back in the day, and as a result of being nigh-on untouchable, he got popular, which resulted in more invites to foreign tourneys that allowed him to make more money. Puzzle's situation is completely different. But if you want to go on past results, Puzzle has shown considerable promise ever since January, where he scored an all-kill of both IM and oGs at the Zotac Teamleague. He's been "up-and-coming" for forever, and he'll only improve over time.
I'm not saying MC sucks -- I think he's a wonderful Protoss, and he's got a wicked personality -- but he's slumping whereas Puzzle isn't. Therefore, his throne is in danger, and if he's not careful, his term will come to a premature end. That is all.
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i think the best way to solve the code S/A "no new blood" problem some people have with it is the following
gomtv needs to create a 10 dollar entry online double-elimination open-tournament every season to prevent scrubs from signing up. next, the top 16 from this tournament are not code S however they get to be seeded into the code s tournament to create a interesting "new blood" element
what happens is code S will have its NORMAL ro32 action take place, with 16 players advancing to the ro16
next, those 16 players will each face off in a bo3 against one of the 16 "new blood" players". this will cause the tournament to in a sense have two "round of 32" 's. in this sense, it will make each gsl code s tournament have a chance where its completely possible for a "new face" to beat mvp in the second round of the tournament and knock him out and make it interesting
make it so if a "new face" wins the gsl he gets to become code S, however make it so code A/MLG are still the only way to obtain code S (in order to make code a still be important)
this means if someone who isnt code S wants to compete in gsl code S tournaments, he has to get code s through code a, or he can pay 10 dollars and compete in the open tournament every season and try his best to get top16
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I knew MC was going to fall to Code A. He hasn't been playing very well recently.
Too many tears for imba imo. Maybe the new patch will change things.
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On September 08 2011 05:17 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 05:07 ppshchik wrote:Terran is the most mechanically demanding race in the high level if you have MVP's or MMA's mechanics. Even mechanical Zergs like IdrA or Losira just max out, attack, remax, attack etc....it's boring. Multitasking > Macro in Sc2 since passive macro is nothing special with MBS imo.... On September 08 2011 05:00 JKira wrote:All balance whining aside, I didn't realize MC has so many anti-fans. Just wondering why that is. Is it cause he is cocky? Cause IdrA seems to only gain fans from that attitude. Is it cause he does allins frequently? Cause he pretty much allins as much as Bomber does and I'm pretty sure no one can question his macro games. It's just a bit disheartening to see pretty much the only Protoss hope in GSL fall to Code A and people saying he deserves it Western SC2 fans + internet anonymity = Fair Weather Fans. Look at how Jinro's fanbase changed when he got into 2 Ro4's and when he fell down to Code A/B Hey I still love Jinro and will always cheer for the gorilla Terran whenever I get the chance
Same here, it's just gotten very quite because Jinro hasn't been performing well lately. But I'll never forget that Jinro was the first foreigner who really had me jump off my seat in joy (and I'm a Zerg)
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ppl pick mvp
and fall to code a
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On September 08 2011 05:56 winthrop wrote:
ppl pick mvp
and fall to code a
Which is worse? Picking MVP or having MVP pick you?
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mc is very good right? why would he lose?
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On September 08 2011 05:00 JKira wrote:All balance whining aside, I didn't realize MC has so many anti-fans. Just wondering why that is. Is it cause he is cocky? Cause IdrA seems to only gain fans from that attitude. Is it cause he does allins frequently? Cause he pretty much allins as much as Bomber does and I'm pretty sure no one can question his macro games. It's just a bit disheartening to see pretty much the only Protoss hope in GSL fall to Code A and people saying he deserves it
The hate directed toward MC is as misguided as the hate directed toward Puma these days. Both Puma and MC can play sick macro games, but if they cheese once.. You get an entire few pages full of haters on LR threads. It's really sad =/. There is no reason to hate a player just because he all-ins every once in a while.
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On September 08 2011 05:50 Sprouter wrote:
I knew MC was going to fall to Code A. He hasn't been playing very well recently.
Too many tears for imba imo. Maybe the new patch will change things.
Hopefully. But you have to wonder how bad or how well a certain race has to do in high-level tournaments before people actually accept them as too weak or too strong. Not arguing one way or the other myself with the current state of Protoss, but just makes you think... I wonder if people would be saying terrans are "just playing bad" if all of a sudden there's only 5 or 6 left in Code S couple seasons later after a nerf.
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On September 08 2011 06:04 Clog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 05:50 Sprouter wrote:
I knew MC was going to fall to Code A. He hasn't been playing very well recently.
Too many tears for imba imo. Maybe the new patch will change things. Hopefully. But you have to wonder how bad or how well a certain race has to do in high-level tournaments before people actually accept them as too weak or too strong. Not arguing one way or the other myself with the current state of Protoss, but just makes you think... I wonder if people would be saying terrans are "just playing bad" if all of a sudden there's only 5 or 6 left in Code S couple seasons later after a nerf.
All it takes is one person to completely break the game and make Protoss op.
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On September 08 2011 05:35 Odoakar wrote:
Sadly, I'm getting bored/fed up with this game:| will probably stop watching once D3 is out. Recently, I've been only watching MLG...I don't know why that is, I certainly would like to keep interest in this game for as long as I can.
I have this feeling that it's not about the players and how good they are but the current state of the game. One race becomes dominant, Blizzard nerfs it and than that race goes into slump, and another one takes the dominant spot, gets nerfed and so on...Players are one day playing in Ro4 Code S, and next month they're in Code B. I think GomTV's system is ok, it's just that you don't have any guarantees that a really good player will be rewarded for his skills and efforts.
Meh:|
There's only so much hype and an awesome community can do to sustain what is in the end a relatively mediocre game. I kind of feel cheated with the emphasis on SC2 being designed as an esport, when it's very clear to me that nobody in the design team knew a thing about good competitive RTS gameplay. If they did, Warpgates wouldn't have made it past the concept stage. :/
Though I guess this makes Blizzard's decision to split the campaign into 3 parts a lot more understandable. Just as the underdeveloped game starts losing interest, an expansion comes out to renew it and restart strategic development, and then it takes another year before the new flaws are properly exposed.
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EPT
