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On December 23 2010 12:03 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 11:53 Saechiis wrote:
I hope Zerg players will adapt and find a good way to fight the marine heavy Terran play that is so popular lately. If the marine gets nerfed Terran will basically consist of 100% gimmicky units, meaning there will never be a standard ... it'll be like a fulltime beta.
I hope to see Zergs opt for roach pressure into infestor, foregoing mutalisk completely unless Terran opts for heavy mech. A revolution like MarineKing's is needed to shake things up a little. Terrans don't even have a gimicky unit, there isn't a single terrible Terran unit (aside from the Reaper)..
Gimmicky doesn't mean terrible, it means specialized to a point where it's not a staple unit anymore.
For instance the tank; it was the go to unit in all Terran MU's as you could rely on it being all around OK against any ground force you'd encounter. With it's damage being completely neutered though, it has become a mere support unit in all MU's.
The marine is now more or less the last Terran unit that you can rely on being OK in most situations, and so it is being massed by pretty much every Terran out there.
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I don't know. I think July has yet to hit his stride. Losing 2-1 to MC in the Ro16 is not a terrible performance, but he's still someone I expect more of in GSL4. The same can be said about MVP, who is still the SC2 player with the best performance in the 2010 MSL of course, but hasn't had as much success in SC2. He might be starting to show some ability to win with this KotH. Maybe MC was in the same boat before GSL3. NaDa too is someone who just seems to play Terran so well (but then loses when Tester a-moves his phoenix/colossus ball).
Anyhow, I think the days of retired BW B-teamers winning GSLs are quickly going to be behind us.
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IS there ANYWHERE i can watch these games... anyone?!?!
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On December 23 2010 13:52 Xxavi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 13:40 IdrA wrote:On December 23 2010 13:34 Xxavi wrote:On December 23 2010 11:19 IdrA wrote:On December 23 2010 10:51 dookudooku wrote:On December 23 2010 10:42 IdrA wrote:
watch all of the pure bio army early/mid game tvz's that have been played recently. just about every single terran can do marine vs bane micro competently. you really thing zergs just being lazy and not trying to figure out how to outmicro it? stimmed marines are just too fast and have too high dps. banelings dont counter them anymore.
the tanks are just there to force attacks and add a bit of damage, its the marines that are the problem and its not a problem thats gonna be nullified with better micro. Micro-wise Terran have it easier than Zerg -- it's easier to control stimmed marines than banelings w/ speed. Still, we see a lot of games where the Terran player loses because the Zerg player is able to kill off the marines with banelings. I still think this the battle is pretty even, but we need to wait to see if that's really the case. I really think Zerg players are not at the level of control needed because of the inherent play-style of Zerg, and Terrans are about a month ahead; give Zerg a month to practice to see if they can catch up. the pure bio play, which relies on the same micro, has been around since foxer vs fd in gsl season 2. its been incredibly popular since then. mvp, a player who is intensely mediocre in other matchups, just 10-1'ed 5 of the best z's in the world. different, stronger style but same base problem. how long till you figure out that its not that marine micro is easier, but that everything is in the hands of the terran? if they know how to execute the micro banelings are not effective, and if banelings arent effective vs marines z has serious problems. Wow, never headr such a description of MVP. I don't know what is the ground to say he is "intensely mediocre in other matchups"? He is sitting at the first spot in Korean ladder, he is probably the best SC:BW player to switch over. If that's his description, I don't know what is the description that we can give to other players, including yourself. julys a golden mouse winner whos been playing since early in the beta, hes not exactly dominating. ladder rank is mostly determined by how much you play. fruitdealer is like 80th and hes clearly the best korean z. watch him play instead of looking at meaningless stuff. OK, let's see how MVP does in SC2. But he seems to be one of the better Terran players around.
He doesn't seem to be any good at TvT and TvP. He's probably the best TvZ'er out there but until he becomes solid in the other matchups I wouldn't be so sure about callign him one of the better Terran players around.
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On December 23 2010 13:54 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 12:03 Dommk wrote:On December 23 2010 11:53 Saechiis wrote:
I hope Zerg players will adapt and find a good way to fight the marine heavy Terran play that is so popular lately. If the marine gets nerfed Terran will basically consist of 100% gimmicky units, meaning there will never be a standard ... it'll be like a fulltime beta.
I hope to see Zergs opt for roach pressure into infestor, foregoing mutalisk completely unless Terran opts for heavy mech. A revolution like MarineKing's is needed to shake things up a little. Terrans don't even have a gimicky unit, there isn't a single terrible Terran unit (aside from the Reaper).. Gimmicky doesn't mean terrible, it means specialized to a point where it's not a staple unit anymore. For instance the tank; it was the go to unit in all Terran MU's as you could rely on it being all around OK against any ground force you'd encounter. With it's damage being completely neutered though, it has become a mere support unit in all MU's. The marine is now more or less the last Terran unit that you can rely on being OK in most situations, and so it is being massed by pretty much every Terran out there.
Those were two separate statements on my part.
And that is not what gimmicky means at all. What the hell has happened to the meaning of this word that now people are actually calling Tanks gimmicky...
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On December 23 2010 14:29 tangwhat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 13:52 Xxavi wrote:On December 23 2010 13:40 IdrA wrote:On December 23 2010 13:34 Xxavi wrote:On December 23 2010 11:19 IdrA wrote:On December 23 2010 10:51 dookudooku wrote:On December 23 2010 10:42 IdrA wrote:
watch all of the pure bio army early/mid game tvz's that have been played recently. just about every single terran can do marine vs bane micro competently. you really thing zergs just being lazy and not trying to figure out how to outmicro it? stimmed marines are just too fast and have too high dps. banelings dont counter them anymore.
the tanks are just there to force attacks and add a bit of damage, its the marines that are the problem and its not a problem thats gonna be nullified with better micro. Micro-wise Terran have it easier than Zerg -- it's easier to control stimmed marines than banelings w/ speed. Still, we see a lot of games where the Terran player loses because the Zerg player is able to kill off the marines with banelings. I still think this the battle is pretty even, but we need to wait to see if that's really the case. I really think Zerg players are not at the level of control needed because of the inherent play-style of Zerg, and Terrans are about a month ahead; give Zerg a month to practice to see if they can catch up. the pure bio play, which relies on the same micro, has been around since foxer vs fd in gsl season 2. its been incredibly popular since then. mvp, a player who is intensely mediocre in other matchups, just 10-1'ed 5 of the best z's in the world. different, stronger style but same base problem. how long till you figure out that its not that marine micro is easier, but that everything is in the hands of the terran? if they know how to execute the micro banelings are not effective, and if banelings arent effective vs marines z has serious problems. Wow, never headr such a description of MVP. I don't know what is the ground to say he is "intensely mediocre in other matchups"? He is sitting at the first spot in Korean ladder, he is probably the best SC:BW player to switch over. If that's his description, I don't know what is the description that we can give to other players, including yourself. julys a golden mouse winner whos been playing since early in the beta, hes not exactly dominating. ladder rank is mostly determined by how much you play. fruitdealer is like 80th and hes clearly the best korean z. watch him play instead of looking at meaningless stuff. OK, let's see how MVP does in SC2. But he seems to be one of the better Terran players around. He doesn't seem to be any good at TvT and TvP. He's probably the best TvZ'er out there but until he becomes solid in the other matchups I wouldn't be so sure about callign him one of the better Terran players around.
Well, I am not sure about his vT but he seems a bit weaker vP.
Anyway, I cannot point to a very good all around player in SC2 at all. NesTea and FruitDealer won GSL mainly thanks to their vT and to an extent vZ for NesTea. MC won thanks to his vT mostly, and he seems less solid vZ, although not too bad.
I saw FruitDealer against P handful of times, and he lost most of them. He lost to Tester, he lost to HongUn, and he had to cheese vs Inca.
So MVP not being great all around does say little at the moment. Nobody is good all around it seems. But all things considered, MVP is one of the better Terran players with exceptional vZ, and pretty good other MUs, albeit not as good as vZ.
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On December 23 2010 02:42 shire wrote:for all of you missed out on IMMVP vs ZERGS, VODs can be viewed at: http://ch.gomtv.com/4555/28119/401343note, IP ADDRESS IS NOT BLOCKED for viewers outside of korea. However, the webpage is all in Korean. if you take a look at right side of the page it says IMMVP vs oGsZenio. click on play button to view the VODS
fucking godamn had to look through 30 pages for this shit, should put this in the main post
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Wait, I can't read Korean but I think I'm downloading an OSX version of the GOM Player. Can anyone confirm? If it is, YES! Finally, been waiting since the GOM BW Classic 3!
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On December 23 2010 14:34 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 13:54 Saechiis wrote:On December 23 2010 12:03 Dommk wrote:On December 23 2010 11:53 Saechiis wrote:
I hope Zerg players will adapt and find a good way to fight the marine heavy Terran play that is so popular lately. If the marine gets nerfed Terran will basically consist of 100% gimmicky units, meaning there will never be a standard ... it'll be like a fulltime beta.
I hope to see Zergs opt for roach pressure into infestor, foregoing mutalisk completely unless Terran opts for heavy mech. A revolution like MarineKing's is needed to shake things up a little. Terrans don't even have a gimicky unit, there isn't a single terrible Terran unit (aside from the Reaper).. Gimmicky doesn't mean terrible, it means specialized to a point where it's not a staple unit anymore. For instance the tank; it was the go to unit in all Terran MU's as you could rely on it being all around OK against any ground force you'd encounter. With it's damage being completely neutered though, it has become a mere support unit in all MU's. The marine is now more or less the last Terran unit that you can rely on being OK in most situations, and so it is being massed by pretty much every Terran out there. Those were two separate statements on my part. And that is not what gimmicky means at all. What the hell has happened to the meaning of this word that now people are actually calling Tanks gimmicky...
I've explained what I meant with gimmicky; unversatile, situational. If you have nothing to say about the contents of my post please don't reply.
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On December 23 2010 14:48 TECHNINE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 02:42 shire wrote:for all of you missed out on IMMVP vs ZERGS, VODs can be viewed at: http://ch.gomtv.com/4555/28119/401343note, IP ADDRESS IS NOT BLOCKED for viewers outside of korea. However, the webpage is all in Korean. if you take a look at right side of the page it says IMMVP vs oGsZenio. click on play button to view the VODS fucking godamn had to look through 30 pages for this shit, should put this in the main post
haha i just got online. i will post it at the opening page. 
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On December 23 2010 11:21 eXigent. wrote:
Secondly, What will a month of practice even accomplish for zerg players? The game has been out for 6months already, with both races being played by some of the absolute best RTS minds out there. These players have played thousands of games of sc2 already, and I highly highly doubt that in the next month things are magically going to change that drastically.
The top players still make tons of mistakes in their matches. We always whine about the mistakes our favorite players are making. Until one player comes and shuts all of us up, there is room for improvement.
I'm sure there are zerg players out there who are working really, really hard on the matchup. I think playing only ladder games is not the most efficient way to do this. Similar to how fighting games have training modes, custom scenarios can be used to figure out the solution to the problem. Custom scenarios allow the maximum number of repetitions in a short amount of time. And ultimately Starcraft, like any skill-based activity, comes down to repetition.
I'm going to remember your post. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. But what will you have to say if a Zerg player manages to wow us by stomping the MTM army with sick micro in the upcoming months?
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On December 23 2010 14:52 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 14:34 Dommk wrote:On December 23 2010 13:54 Saechiis wrote:On December 23 2010 12:03 Dommk wrote:On December 23 2010 11:53 Saechiis wrote:
I hope Zerg players will adapt and find a good way to fight the marine heavy Terran play that is so popular lately. If the marine gets nerfed Terran will basically consist of 100% gimmicky units, meaning there will never be a standard ... it'll be like a fulltime beta.
I hope to see Zergs opt for roach pressure into infestor, foregoing mutalisk completely unless Terran opts for heavy mech. A revolution like MarineKing's is needed to shake things up a little. Terrans don't even have a gimicky unit, there isn't a single terrible Terran unit (aside from the Reaper).. Gimmicky doesn't mean terrible, it means specialized to a point where it's not a staple unit anymore. For instance the tank; it was the go to unit in all Terran MU's as you could rely on it being all around OK against any ground force you'd encounter. With it's damage being completely neutered though, it has become a mere support unit in all MU's. The marine is now more or less the last Terran unit that you can rely on being OK in most situations, and so it is being massed by pretty much every Terran out there. Those were two separate statements on my part. And that is not what gimmicky means at all. What the hell has happened to the meaning of this word that now people are actually calling Tanks gimmicky... I've explained what I meant with gimmicky; unversatile, situational. If you have nothing to say about the contents of my post please don't reply.
Maybe you should stop using the word incorrectly.
Don't even understand how you can call them situational when they are used in every single TvZ that isn't a 2/4rax SCV all-in. Even then, Tanks were still being used the same way after the damage nerf, only now people have realized that the marine is an incredibly strong unit so it has taken a back seat in terms of the role it plays.
But hearing back at Blizzcon, one of the devs coined marine stim as one of the most broken things in the game, and only now are people starting to realize it, most likely it will get nerfed.
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Two things that shoot out at me. Firstly, FD picking Jungle Basin and Steppes as maps. It seems to me FD doesn't want to reveal any strats going into GSL 4 since IMMVP is in his group.
Secondly, IMMVP is in a group of nothing but Zergs for GSL 4. It's going to be tough as hell to beat him and advance to the next round.
Can't wait for GSL 4 to start!
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On December 23 2010 15:34 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 14:52 Saechiis wrote:On December 23 2010 14:34 Dommk wrote:On December 23 2010 13:54 Saechiis wrote:On December 23 2010 12:03 Dommk wrote:On December 23 2010 11:53 Saechiis wrote:
I hope Zerg players will adapt and find a good way to fight the marine heavy Terran play that is so popular lately. If the marine gets nerfed Terran will basically consist of 100% gimmicky units, meaning there will never be a standard ... it'll be like a fulltime beta.
I hope to see Zergs opt for roach pressure into infestor, foregoing mutalisk completely unless Terran opts for heavy mech. A revolution like MarineKing's is needed to shake things up a little. Terrans don't even have a gimicky unit, there isn't a single terrible Terran unit (aside from the Reaper).. Gimmicky doesn't mean terrible, it means specialized to a point where it's not a staple unit anymore. For instance the tank; it was the go to unit in all Terran MU's as you could rely on it being all around OK against any ground force you'd encounter. With it's damage being completely neutered though, it has become a mere support unit in all MU's. The marine is now more or less the last Terran unit that you can rely on being OK in most situations, and so it is being massed by pretty much every Terran out there. Those were two separate statements on my part. And that is not what gimmicky means at all. What the hell has happened to the meaning of this word that now people are actually calling Tanks gimmicky... I've explained what I meant with gimmicky; unversatile, situational. If you have nothing to say about the contents of my post please don't reply. Maybe you should stop using the word incorrectly. Don't even understand how you can call them situational when they are used in every single TvZ that isn't a 2/4rax SCV all-in. Even then, Tanks were still being used the same way after the damage nerf, only now people have realized that the marine is an incredibly strong unit so it has taken a back seat in terms of the role it plays. But hearing back at Blizzcon, one of the devs coined marine stim as one of the most broken things in the game, and only now are people starting to realize it, most likely it will get nerfed.
I know you think my use of the word gimmick is incorrect, I just don't really care. Hence I asked you to respond to the contents of my post instead of raising global awareness for the word gimmick.
The fact that you claim tanks are being used in the same way as pre-damage nerf pretty much voids your credibility for me. Pre-nerf, mech was standard in TvZ, TvP and TvT whilst post-nerf mech is only even viable in TvZ where it is pretty much extinct too. People didn't suddenly find out marines were good units, they started massing bio because tanks became a liability.
PS. The developers at Blizzcon were surprised at the Marauder QQ since Marines deal more DPS on paper. Saying that "one of the devs coined marine stim as one of the most broken things in the game" is taking things a bit out of context don't you think?
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What were the actual results?
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I love how so many noobs are arguing with IdrA about strategy, the state of the game and opinions on balance. Do you guys argue with your doctor when you're sick too? Idiots. Learn to respect those who actually have the knowledge about the subject you're interested in and learn from them. I especially love the people offering advice on unit compositions. Pretty sure IdrA plays 6+ hours a day and knows Starcraft better than you know your own dick. If there were better unit comps or "micro tricks" available to him, he would've executed them and won. The pure fact of the matter is we watched MVP 10-1 the five best Zergs in the world using basically the same strat with small variations on it. Not to mention, the later Zergs got to watch MVP's style in action and had time to sit and think about how to approach it. Foxer showed us the power of the marine by nearly winning a GSL using them alone. MVP, being the smart player he is, has expounded upon his idea and has incorporated their strengths into his more solid macro style play.
While I am terrible at SC, I do enjoy watching it played at a high level. To ME, it appears like the problem is rather complex. The baneling, while an awesome unit, does not seem to satisfy its role when used in top tier games. Secondly, Zerg cannot apply early pressure due to the massive economy hit they would experience in the mid-late game, compounded by the fact that the early game Zerg units are not particularly strong against Terran's units.
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On December 23 2010 16:26 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 15:34 Dommk wrote:On December 23 2010 14:52 Saechiis wrote:On December 23 2010 14:34 Dommk wrote:On December 23 2010 13:54 Saechiis wrote:On December 23 2010 12:03 Dommk wrote:On December 23 2010 11:53 Saechiis wrote:
I hope Zerg players will adapt and find a good way to fight the marine heavy Terran play that is so popular lately. If the marine gets nerfed Terran will basically consist of 100% gimmicky units, meaning there will never be a standard ... it'll be like a fulltime beta.
I hope to see Zergs opt for roach pressure into infestor, foregoing mutalisk completely unless Terran opts for heavy mech. A revolution like MarineKing's is needed to shake things up a little. Terrans don't even have a gimicky unit, there isn't a single terrible Terran unit (aside from the Reaper).. Gimmicky doesn't mean terrible, it means specialized to a point where it's not a staple unit anymore. For instance the tank; it was the go to unit in all Terran MU's as you could rely on it being all around OK against any ground force you'd encounter. With it's damage being completely neutered though, it has become a mere support unit in all MU's. The marine is now more or less the last Terran unit that you can rely on being OK in most situations, and so it is being massed by pretty much every Terran out there. Those were two separate statements on my part. And that is not what gimmicky means at all. What the hell has happened to the meaning of this word that now people are actually calling Tanks gimmicky... I've explained what I meant with gimmicky; unversatile, situational. If you have nothing to say about the contents of my post please don't reply. Maybe you should stop using the word incorrectly. Don't even understand how you can call them situational when they are used in every single TvZ that isn't a 2/4rax SCV all-in. Even then, Tanks were still being used the same way after the damage nerf, only now people have realized that the marine is an incredibly strong unit so it has taken a back seat in terms of the role it plays. But hearing back at Blizzcon, one of the devs coined marine stim as one of the most broken things in the game, and only now are people starting to realize it, most likely it will get nerfed. I know you think my use of the word gimmick is incorrect, I just don't really care. Hence I asked you to respond to the contents of my post instead of raising global awareness for the word gimmick. The fact that you claim tanks are being used in the same way as pre-damage nerf pretty much voids your credibility for me. Pre-nerf, mech was standard in TvZ, TvP and TvT whilst post-nerf mech is only even viable in TvZ where it is pretty much extinct too. People didn't suddenly find out marines were good units, they started massing bio because tanks became a liability. PS. The developers at Blizzcon were surprised at the Marauder QQ since Marines deal more DPS on paper. Saying that "one of the devs coined marine stim as one of the most broken things in the game" is taking things a bit out of context don't you think?
No, that was what they said, according to their map which pits units against each other, one dev said the results showed that marine stim was pretty broken, but they didn't want to change it because people didn't find it a problem...
Tanks were being used as a support role pre-nerf as well,I've watched a ton of games from strelok showed marine/tank/thor against muta/ling or roach/bane. Pure mech play has died down abit, but a -10damage nerf isn't why, people have just gotten better at dealing with mech.But late game Mech still exists in TvP
People actually "did" just find out marines were amazing units. The way Foxer used marines were significantly more effective than any pure mech play that existed before it, really, the way marines are still being used are superior to any pure mech play that has ever existed, it is just soo much stronger, MvP showed that, no one ever exploited marines to this extent 3/4 months ago.
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On December 23 2010 16:50 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
I love how so many noobs are arguing with IdrA about strategy, the state of the game and opinions on balance. Do you guys argue with your doctor when you're sick too? Idiots. Learn to respect those who actually have the knowledge about the subject you're interested in and learn from them. I especially love the people offering advice on unit compositions. Pretty sure IdrA plays 6+ hours a day and knows Starcraft better than you know your own dick. If there were better unit comps or "micro tricks" available to him, he would've executed them and won. The pure fact of the matter is we watched MVP 10-1 the five best Zergs in the world using basically the same strat with small variations on it. Not to mention, the later Zergs got to watch MVP's style in action and had time to sit and think about how to approach it. Foxer showed us the power of the marine by nearly winning a GSL using them alone. MVP, being the smart player he is, has expounded upon his idea and has incorporated their strengths into his more solid macro style play.
While I am terrible at SC, I do enjoy watching it played at a high level. To ME, it appears like the problem is rather complex. The baneling, while an awesome unit, does not seem to satisfy its role when used in top tier games. Secondly, Zerg cannot apply early pressure due to the massive economy hit they would experience in the mid-late game, compounded by the fact that the early game Zerg units are not particularly strong against Terran's units.
Doctors can be biased too  For example, if your doctor recommended to you Health Potion A because Potion A gave him some money back, and you think that Potion A is less effective than Potion B, I see no reason to not argue.
And if Idra is anything in an argument, it's biased. Regardless of bias however, he is still more knowledgeable about subject matter. If he were completely objective in his arguments and his past comments, this would be a much more fair statement.
As it is now, he's removed his one immunity by blatantly arguing for anything pro-zerg related.
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On December 23 2010 17:13 ch0c0b0fr34k wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 16:50 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
I love how so many noobs are arguing with IdrA about strategy, the state of the game and opinions on balance. Do you guys argue with your doctor when you're sick too? Idiots. Learn to respect those who actually have the knowledge about the subject you're interested in and learn from them. I especially love the people offering advice on unit compositions. Pretty sure IdrA plays 6+ hours a day and knows Starcraft better than you know your own dick. If there were better unit comps or "micro tricks" available to him, he would've executed them and won. The pure fact of the matter is we watched MVP 10-1 the five best Zergs in the world using basically the same strat with small variations on it. Not to mention, the later Zergs got to watch MVP's style in action and had time to sit and think about how to approach it. Foxer showed us the power of the marine by nearly winning a GSL using them alone. MVP, being the smart player he is, has expounded upon his idea and has incorporated their strengths into his more solid macro style play.
While I am terrible at SC, I do enjoy watching it played at a high level. To ME, it appears like the problem is rather complex. The baneling, while an awesome unit, does not seem to satisfy its role when used in top tier games. Secondly, Zerg cannot apply early pressure due to the massive economy hit they would experience in the mid-late game, compounded by the fact that the early game Zerg units are not particularly strong against Terran's units. Doctors can be biased too For example, if your doctor recommended to you Health Potion A because Potion A gave him some money back, and you think that Potion A is less effective than Potion B, I see no reason to not argue. And if Idra is anything in an argument, it's biased. Regardless of bias however, he is still more knowledgeable about subject matter. If he were completely objective in his arguments and his past comments, this would be a much more fair statement. As it is now, he's removed his one immunity by blatantly arguing for anything pro-zerg related.
thats not even true, during beta phase 1, while playing zerg, i said zvt was z favored and that z should never lose zvp
what if the game has actually been terrible for zerg since the release? you know, like all the statistics barring gsl 1st places show it has been.
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EPT
