EPTgisado aka KTH on gomtv - Page 29
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Shew
United States460 Posts
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bahl sofs tiil
United States233 Posts
On December 23 2010 10:03 Ultramus wrote: The best idea I can think of... There are plenty of professional Zerg players out there who are winning against marine/tank professional Terran players and they're not doing it with some new trick or funny gimmick or anything. You don't need to make up hypothetical situations or posit theories. You make it sound like no Zerg players are beating this but that just isn't the case. Watch videos of top Zerg players, see what they do and get better at doing it yourself. On December 23 2010 10:40 Shew wrote: so last night was TvZ, what is for tonight? Tonight is Protoss versus Zerg. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On December 23 2010 10:16 dookudooku wrote: As I said, this match is fairly balanced. Whatever Terran does can be defeated with superior control, and vice versa. Also, the marine spreads we're seeing are not perfect. There's usually 3-5 marines together, enough for banelings to be effective. Once Zerg players can control their units better, Terran players will need to be able to split their marines even better -- spread 30 marines into SINGLE marine groups in seconds. Also, spread marines are vulnerable to mutalisks and zerglings. Eventually we'll see Zerg players build only enough banelings to force the marines to spread, then rely on zerglings and mutalisks to do damage. And then Terrans will counter will different spread and kiting patterns. It should be a never ending battle of who has better control. Going back to the piano analogy -- if you've never seen or heard a top level pianist perform, you wouldn't have any idea of what's possible with that instrument. But the piano has been around for 300 years, and we know what a human is capable of with that instrument. SC has been around for 10 years, and SC2 for less than a year. So none of us really know what's possible -- what I'm saying is not completely outrageous. watch all of the pure bio army early/mid game tvz's that have been played recently. just about every single terran can do marine vs bane micro competently. you really thing zergs just being lazy and not trying to figure out how to outmicro it? stimmed marines are just too fast and have too high dps. banelings dont counter them anymore. the tanks are just there to force attacks and add a bit of damage, its the marines that are the problem and its not a problem thats gonna be nullified with better micro. | ||
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Ultramus
United States319 Posts
On December 23 2010 10:16 dookudooku wrote: As I said, this match is fairly balanced. Whatever Terran does can be defeated with superior control, and vice versa. Also, the marine spreads we're seeing are not perfect. There's usually 3-5 marines together, enough for banelings to be effective. Once Zerg players can control their units better, Terran players will need to be able to split their marines even better -- spread 30 marines into SINGLE marine groups in seconds. Also, spread marines are vulnerable to mutalisks and zerglings. Eventually we'll see Zerg players build only enough banelings to force the marines to spread, then rely on zerglings and mutalisks to do damage. And then Terrans will counter will different spread and kiting patterns. It should be a never ending battle of who has better control. Going back to the piano analogy -- if you've never seen or heard a top level pianist perform, you wouldn't have any idea of what's possible with that instrument. But the piano has been around for 300 years, and we know what a human is capable of with that instrument. SC has been around for 10 years, and SC2 for less than a year. So none of us really know what's possible -- what I'm saying is not completely outrageous. I played the oboe at a proficient level and have very quick fingers, it doesn't mean that I can play a chromatic scale 2 octaves higher than the instrument's range, no matter how fast I can play. You haven't addressed how to get banelings past tanks utilizing some sort of spread, I'd really like to know how banelings rolling into tank lines is ever going to function any different, and spreading the banelings is a terrible idea, the point is in battle you need them to get to the marines as fast as possible, spreading them doesn't utilize the cooldown of the tanks and the DPS of marines will just eat them up. The current theory behind baneling use vs marine tank is to throw a sufficient quantity of lings and banes at it so that the combined total of health exceeds the DPS threshold of the terran army. If you've ever seen zerglings attack a marine ball you'll notice that under a certain amount the lings will never touch it. IIRC I think that PainUser calls it front loaded damage, the damage that occurs on both sides immediately as the battle begins. Because the terran army has far superior DPS the longer the engagement goes the worse it is for zerg. If the zerg attacks at the wrong time or too slowly, his entire army evaporates with minimal losses for terran, you have to have a certain amount of stuff before you can engage. | ||
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ch0c0b0fr34k
United States452 Posts
On December 23 2010 10:40 Shew wrote: so last night was TvZ, what is for tonight? Tonight is PvZ | ||
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Ultramus
United States319 Posts
On December 23 2010 10:41 bahl sofs tiil wrote: There are plenty of professional Zerg players out there who are winning against marine/tank professional Terran players and they're not doing it with some new trick or funny gimmick or anything. You don't need to make up hypothetical situations or posit theories. You make it sound like no Zerg players are beating this but that just isn't the case. Watch videos of top Zerg players, see what they do and get better at doing it yourself. Tonight is Protoss versus Zerg. Those terrans aren't MVP. Top players exchanging losses is fine and would be indicative of balance. One top tier terran shitting on arguably the best zergs in the game right now should send off some alarms. If MVP's skill was so far and above everyone else it would show in his other MUs, which just ins't the case. | ||
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Elwar
953 Posts
On December 23 2010 10:16 dookudooku wrote: As I said, this match is fairly balanced. Whatever Terran does can be defeated with superior control, and vice versa. Also, the marine spreads we're seeing are not perfect. There's usually 3-5 marines together, enough for banelings to be effective. Once Zerg players can control their units better, Terran players will need to be able to split their marines even better -- spread 30 marines into SINGLE marine groups in seconds. Also, spread marines are vulnerable to mutalisks and zerglings. Eventually we'll see Zerg players build only enough banelings to force the marines to spread, then rely on zerglings and mutalisks to do damage. And then Terrans will counter will different spread and kiting patterns. It should be a never ending battle of who has better control. The problem with marine splitting vs. baneling splitting is terran inherently has the easier job. Terran is the one running away and splitting, meaning zerg has to react after the fact while losing loads of banelings. More importantly when terran splits units they don't need to bother controlling them for the duration of that battle, they do maximum damage wherever they stop. When zerg splits units, banelings will explode on 1-3 marines regularly which is not effective, or even worse they will explode on marauders or tanks which is hideously ineffecient. For that reason zerg cannot split units the same relatively easy way that terran can. There are definitely options in a world where control would progress to levels you describe, but I don't know if thats actually ever going to occur. At the moment to me it looks like similar control = definite terran advantage with these unit compositions. | ||
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dookudooku
255 Posts
On December 23 2010 10:42 IdrA wrote: watch all of the pure bio army early/mid game tvz's that have been played recently. just about every single terran can do marine vs bane micro competently. you really thing zergs just being lazy and not trying to figure out how to outmicro it? stimmed marines are just too fast and have too high dps. banelings dont counter them anymore. the tanks are just there to force attacks and add a bit of damage, its the marines that are the problem and its not a problem thats gonna be nullified with better micro. Micro-wise Terran have it easier than Zerg -- it's easier to control stimmed marines than banelings w/ speed. Still, we see a lot of games where the Terran player loses because the Zerg player is able to kill off the marines with banelings. I still think this the battle is pretty even, but we need to wait to see if that's really the case. I really think Zerg players are not at the level of control needed because of the inherent play-style of Zerg, and Terrans are about a month ahead; give Zerg a month to practice to see if they can catch up. | ||
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iNversion
United States107 Posts
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Shew
United States460 Posts
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On December 23 2010 10:47 Elwar wrote: The problem with marine splitting vs. baneling splitting is terran inherently has the easier job. Terran is the one running away and splitting, meaning zerg has to react after the fact while losing loads of banelings. More importantly when terran splits units they don't need to bother controlling them for the duration of that battle, they do maximum damage wherever they stop. When zerg splits units, banelings will explode on 1-3 marines regularly which is not effective, or even worse they will explode on marauders or tanks which is hideously ineffecient. For that reason zerg cannot split units the same relatively easy way that terran can. There are definitely options in a world where control would progress to levels you describe, but I don't know if thats actually ever going to occur. At the moment to me it looks like similar control = definite terran advantage with these unit compositions. Zerg right-clicks banelings in the approximate direction of the enemy while Terran subsequently stims, kites and splits his marines knowing that failure will mean the demise of his entire marine ball in a not so much cost-effective way. I have never seen banelings being split to hit the newly formed groups of marines, in fact I always see 1 clump of banelings rolling from one marine pack to the other. As such I'm having a hard time refraining the cola I drank from spraying out my nose when you casually mentioned Terran "inherently has the easier job" in marine splitting micro against banelings. I mean ... "when terran splits units they don't need to bother controlling them for the duration of that battle" ... have you read that out loud to yourself? | ||
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FighterHayabusa
United States90 Posts
1. The units we are talking about are melee units 2. It wastes time you don't have Thinking that you can somehow spread banes to be effective vs spread marines with stim and tank support is silly. You'll never be able to negate the tanks completely, but even if you could the marines are the problem not the tanks. The longer it takes the banelings to attack the fewer will get there---this is just math. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On December 23 2010 10:51 dookudooku wrote: Micro-wise Terran have it easier than Zerg -- it's easier to control stimmed marines than banelings w/ speed. Still, we see a lot of games where the Terran player loses because the Zerg player is able to kill off the marines with banelings. I still think this the battle is pretty even, but we need to wait to see if that's really the case. I really think Zerg players are not at the level of control needed because of the inherent play-style of Zerg, and Terrans are about a month ahead; give Zerg a month to practice to see if they can catch up. the pure bio play, which relies on the same micro, has been around since foxer vs fd in gsl season 2. its been incredibly popular since then. mvp, a player who is intensely mediocre in other matchups, just 10-1'ed 5 of the best z's in the world. different, stronger style but same base problem. how long till you figure out that its not that marine micro is easier, but that everything is in the hands of the terran? if they know how to execute the micro banelings are not effective, and if banelings arent effective vs marines z has serious problems. | ||
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eXigent.
Canada2419 Posts
On December 23 2010 10:51 dookudooku wrote: Micro-wise Terran have it easier than Zerg -- it's easier to control stimmed marines than banelings w/ speed. Still, we see a lot of games where the Terran player loses because the Zerg player is able to kill off the marines with banelings. I still think this the battle is pretty even, but we need to wait to see if that's really the case. I really think Zerg players are not at the level of control needed because of the inherent play-style of Zerg, and Terrans are about a month ahead; give Zerg a month to practice to see if they can catch up. This post doesnt make much sense. First off you admit that terran is easier to control when engaging zerg. So basically right off the bat you admit that zerg are at a slight disadvantage, yet you go on to change your answer halfway down. Still, we see a lot of games where the Terran player loses because the Zerg player is able to kill off the marines with banelings How does this have anything to due with pure balance regarding TvZ? This can be entirely based on the players own errors throughout the game, like misclicking here or there that leads to banelings killing his army. Just because you saw some terran armies die to banelings doesnt mean its because they are evenly balanced. All that means is that 1 player was possibly playing worse than the other at that given moment. You should never base balance off things you "see" happen in the GSL or w/e else. I really think Zerg players are not at the level of control needed because of the inherent play-style of Zerg, and Terrans are about a month ahead; give Zerg a month to practice to see if they can catch up Here you are making some massive assumptions regarding zerg players. What inherent playstyle are you talking about? How do you know terran players are X months ahead of zergs? I mean, this statement is just soo random. You state a random figure that terrans are 30days ahead of zergs (does that even make sense), and that zergs need to practice for a month to catch up? That doesnt make any sense at all. First of logically, if 1 race is a "month ahead" then when zerg catch up, that race will still be a month ahead, unless terran players stop playing/learning for a whole month. Secondly, What will a month of practice even accomplish for zerg players? The game has been out for 6months already, with both races being played by some of the absolute best RTS minds out there. These players have played thousands of games of sc2 already, and I highly highly doubt that in the next month things are magically going to change that drastically. Unit control is very important in games, but is not the answer to fixing balance problems. Telling players to have better control, when they are already at the very top, playing in the GSL etc, is absurd. They have the unit control needed, but its just not enough. Heres a quick example of what im saying. 1 zealot vs 1 zergling. No matter how well you micro that zergling, it will still always die to the zealot. There is no magical unit control that will change that. This is the problem thats being experienced....not lack of unit control. | ||
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bokchoi
Korea (South)9498 Posts
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Baffels
United States1486 Posts
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On December 23 2010 11:19 IdrA wrote: the pure bio play, which relies on the same micro, has been around since foxer vs fd in gsl season 2. its been incredibly popular since then. mvp, a player who is intensely mediocre in other matchups, just 10-1'ed 5 of the best z's in the world. different, stronger style but same base problem. how long till you figure out that its not that marine micro is easier, but that everything is in the hands of the terran? if they know how to execute the micro banelings are not effective, and if banelings arent effective vs marines z has serious problems. I recall you saying something along the lines of "infestor play going to demolish the bullshit Foxer's been doing in GSL2". If they know how to execute micro vs banelings, FG them and prevent micro entirely. There's some things u can't change TvZ, for everything else there's 12 drone rush. | ||
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FighterHayabusa
United States90 Posts
On December 23 2010 11:19 IdrA wrote: the pure bio play, which relies on the same micro, has been around since foxer vs fd in gsl season 2. its been incredibly popular since then. mvp, a player who is intensely mediocre in other matchups, just 10-1'ed 5 of the best z's in the world. different, stronger style but same base problem. how long till you figure out that its not that marine micro is easier, but that everything is in the hands of the terran? if they know how to execute the micro banelings are not effective, and if banelings arent effective vs marines z has serious problems. Basically this, and the fact that Mutas aren't effective against marines either. I can see Brood Lords helping with this, but just getting them is going to get you killed. The other thing is this: Zerg has fewer units. The number of combinations we have is significantly fewer---which translates to this: Zerg has less options. | ||
Antoine
United States7481 Posts
On December 23 2010 10:46 Ultramus wrote: Those terrans aren't MVP. Top players exchanging losses is fine and would be indicative of balance. One top tier terran shitting on arguably the best zergs in the game right now should send off some alarms. If MVP's skill was so far and above everyone else it would show in his other MUs, which just ins't the case.  sKyHigh is ridiculously good TvT and strongly mediocre in his other MUs, does that mean it's an imba matchup? | ||
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Ultramus
United States319 Posts
On December 23 2010 11:32 Sadistx wrote: I recall you saying something along the lines of "infestor play going to demolish the bullshit Foxer's been doing in GSL2". If they know how to execute micro vs banelings, FG them and prevent micro entirely. There's some things u can't change TvZ, for everything else there's 12 drone rush. Because getting infestors out doesn't leave you crippled, and they can really outrange those tanks to get FGs off on the marines, oh wait. | ||
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