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On December 23 2010 11:32 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 11:19 IdrA wrote:On December 23 2010 10:51 dookudooku wrote:On December 23 2010 10:42 IdrA wrote:
watch all of the pure bio army early/mid game tvz's that have been played recently. just about every single terran can do marine vs bane micro competently. you really thing zergs just being lazy and not trying to figure out how to outmicro it? stimmed marines are just too fast and have too high dps. banelings dont counter them anymore.
the tanks are just there to force attacks and add a bit of damage, its the marines that are the problem and its not a problem thats gonna be nullified with better micro. Micro-wise Terran have it easier than Zerg -- it's easier to control stimmed marines than banelings w/ speed. Still, we see a lot of games where the Terran player loses because the Zerg player is able to kill off the marines with banelings. I still think this the battle is pretty even, but we need to wait to see if that's really the case. I really think Zerg players are not at the level of control needed because of the inherent play-style of Zerg, and Terrans are about a month ahead; give Zerg a month to practice to see if they can catch up. the pure bio play, which relies on the same micro, has been around since foxer vs fd in gsl season 2. its been incredibly popular since then. mvp, a player who is intensely mediocre in other matchups, just 10-1'ed 5 of the best z's in the world. different, stronger style but same base problem. how long till you figure out that its not that marine micro is easier, but that everything is in the hands of the terran? if they know how to execute the micro banelings are not effective, and if banelings arent effective vs marines z has serious problems. I recall you saying something along the lines of "infestor play going to demolish the bullshit Foxer's been doing in GSL2". If they know how to execute micro vs banelings, FG them and prevent micro entirely. There's some things u can't change TvZ, for everything else there's 12 drone rush.
tanks nullify infestors, watch the mvp vs zenio games. infestors are high target priority and tanks outrange fungal. terrans dont poke with their whole marine army so you never get off an efficient fungal.
infestors are good vs pure bio if you can survive to get them.
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Can someone really look at MVP's games and not think that MVP outplayed the Zerg players pretty heavily? I'd include even that game against Zenio.
But, yeah, there's no micro to be done. For micro-ing banelings, what are you going to do? Right-click harder?
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On December 23 2010 10:46 Ultramus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 10:41 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On December 23 2010 10:03 Ultramus wrote:
The best idea I can think of... There are plenty of professional Zerg players out there who are winning against marine/tank professional Terran players and they're not doing it with some new trick or funny gimmick or anything. You don't need to make up hypothetical situations or posit theories. You make it sound like no Zerg players are beating this but that just isn't the case. Watch videos of top Zerg players, see what they do and get better at doing it yourself. On December 23 2010 10:40 Shew wrote:
so last night was TvZ, what is for tonight? Tonight is Protoss versus Zerg. Those terrans aren't MVP. Top players exchanging losses is fine and would be indicative of balance. One top tier terran shitting on arguably the best zergs in the game right now should send off some alarms. If MVP's skill was so far and above everyone else it would show in his other MUs, which just ins't the case.
Top tier players do exchange losses, while mvp appears to be an outlier. Not everyone is doing what he is doing, which makes me think it is more about him than about the match-up. If there was a problem with the match-up, what happened here wouldn't be so rare as to be amazing - it would be considered par. It is just like MC in this last GSL: mvp is to Terran versus Zerg what MC is to Protoss versus Terran.
I mean, seriously, I don't think there is another Terran player who would've done what mvp just did.
Also, think about this: just one month ago, Nestea beat MC, Boxer and MarineKing in the same tournament, Zenio beat mvp and just this week IdrA made qxc look foolish. I think calling imbalanced based on one day's results is a bit of an overreaction.
EDIT:
Don't get me wrong, though, if a pattern forms from this and all the Terran pros start sweeping every Zerg they play then OK but I really doubt that will happen.
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On December 23 2010 11:37 Antoine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 10:46 Ultramus wrote:On December 23 2010 10:41 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On December 23 2010 10:03 Ultramus wrote:
The best idea I can think of... There are plenty of professional Zerg players out there who are winning against marine/tank professional Terran players and they're not doing it with some new trick or funny gimmick or anything. You don't need to make up hypothetical situations or posit theories. You make it sound like no Zerg players are beating this but that just isn't the case. Watch videos of top Zerg players, see what they do and get better at doing it yourself. On December 23 2010 10:40 Shew wrote:
so last night was TvZ, what is for tonight? Tonight is Protoss versus Zerg. Those terrans aren't MVP. Top players exchanging losses is fine and would be indicative of balance. One top tier terran shitting on arguably the best zergs in the game right now should send off some alarms. If MVP's skill was so far and above everyone else it would show in his other MUs, which just ins't the case.  sKyHigh is ridiculously good TvT and strongly mediocre in his other MUs, does that mean it's an imba matchup?
Not to mention no Terran right now is good at TvP...
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Lol. I love how Zergs are: Don't judge the game off of 1, then 2, GSLs, that's not enough evidence for anything! Then they come in here and say that MVP outplaying the zergs who did not play tip top tonight, that it should set off some alarms, LOL
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I hope Zerg players will adapt and find a good way to fight the marine heavy Terran play that is so popular lately. If the marine gets nerfed Terran will basically consist of 100% gimmicky units, meaning there will never be a standard ... it'll be like a fulltime beta.
I hope to see Zergs opt for roach pressure into infestor, foregoing mutalisk completely unless Terran opts for heavy mech. A revolution like MarineKing's is needed to shake things up a little.
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On December 23 2010 11:37 Antoine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 10:46 Ultramus wrote:On December 23 2010 10:41 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On December 23 2010 10:03 Ultramus wrote:
The best idea I can think of... There are plenty of professional Zerg players out there who are winning against marine/tank professional Terran players and they're not doing it with some new trick or funny gimmick or anything. You don't need to make up hypothetical situations or posit theories. You make it sound like no Zerg players are beating this but that just isn't the case. Watch videos of top Zerg players, see what they do and get better at doing it yourself. On December 23 2010 10:40 Shew wrote:
so last night was TvZ, what is for tonight? Tonight is Protoss versus Zerg. Those terrans aren't MVP. Top players exchanging losses is fine and would be indicative of balance. One top tier terran shitting on arguably the best zergs in the game right now should send off some alarms. If MVP's skill was so far and above everyone else it would show in his other MUs, which just ins't the case. sKyHigh is ridiculously good TvT and strongly mediocre in his other MUs, does that mean it's an imba matchup?
I feel like sKyHigh's problem is either a) He tries to play the other match-ups like its TvT or b) He just doesn't understand the other match-ups (definitely not as well as TvT).
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On December 23 2010 11:55 bokchoi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 11:37 Antoine wrote:On December 23 2010 10:46 Ultramus wrote:On December 23 2010 10:41 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On December 23 2010 10:03 Ultramus wrote:
The best idea I can think of... There are plenty of professional Zerg players out there who are winning against marine/tank professional Terran players and they're not doing it with some new trick or funny gimmick or anything. You don't need to make up hypothetical situations or posit theories. You make it sound like no Zerg players are beating this but that just isn't the case. Watch videos of top Zerg players, see what they do and get better at doing it yourself. On December 23 2010 10:40 Shew wrote:
so last night was TvZ, what is for tonight? Tonight is Protoss versus Zerg. Those terrans aren't MVP. Top players exchanging losses is fine and would be indicative of balance. One top tier terran shitting on arguably the best zergs in the game right now should send off some alarms. If MVP's skill was so far and above everyone else it would show in his other MUs, which just ins't the case. sKyHigh is ridiculously good TvT and strongly mediocre in his other MUs, does that mean it's an imba matchup? I feel like sKyHigh's problem is either a) He tries to play the other match-ups like its TvT or b) He just doesn't understand the other match-ups (definitely not as well as TvT).
that's the idea, mvp may be really good at splititng marines, avoiding banes and reading the tvz mu but lackluster at the other ones since they're all pretty different, using the other matchups as some sort of infallible gauge is pretty slippery.
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On December 23 2010 11:53 Saechiis wrote:
I hope Zerg players will adapt and find a good way to fight the marine heavy Terran play that is so popular lately. If the marine gets nerfed Terran will basically consist of 100% gimmicky units, meaning there will never be a standard ... it'll be like a fulltime beta.
I hope to see Zergs opt for roach pressure into infestor, foregoing mutalisk completely unless Terran opts for heavy mech. A revolution like MarineKing's is needed to shake things up a little.
Terrans don't even have a gimicky unit, there isn't a single terrible Terran unit (aside from the Reaper)..
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ARE THERE VODS ANYWHERE FOR THIS? I REALLY WANT TO WATCH THE TERRAN VS ZERG GAMES
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You need Corruptors to take out the Medivacs ... without Medivacs, Marines can't constantly stim run and do stuff. Mutas can't kill the medivacs easily because of range and the Marines are beneath the medivacs to stim & to protect. Corruptors can eventually be morphed into Broodlords if the game last long enough for the Zerg. But then again, they are slow.
The Terran has to seige leap frog the tanks while the Marines bait the Banelings with stim .. and Tanks are just a big big problem for infestors and banelings. You can't kill the marines, so you have to make them kill themselves. The micro works marvelously only with stim, without stim, Marines will die to banelings. But the pressure of the inching tanks mostly makes the Zerg engage in a losing situation with the banelings taking out the tanks and only a portion of the marines. And the leftover marines to win the game.
I don't know .. it's just theorycrafting, but it's true Broodlords work against this combo .. the problem is getting there before dying or at least having a lead in macro as Zergs should. But then the early game just leaves zerg on equal footing if not behind.
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Hey guys, is this tournament coinciding with YGosu Invitational?
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On December 23 2010 12:03 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 11:53 Saechiis wrote:
I hope Zerg players will adapt and find a good way to fight the marine heavy Terran play that is so popular lately. If the marine gets nerfed Terran will basically consist of 100% gimmicky units, meaning there will never be a standard ... it'll be like a fulltime beta.
I hope to see Zergs opt for roach pressure into infestor, foregoing mutalisk completely unless Terran opts for heavy mech. A revolution like MarineKing's is needed to shake things up a little. Terrans don't even have a gimicky unit, there isn't a single terrible Terran unit (aside from the Reaper)..
Reaper's aren't terrible. They aren't exactly well suited for serious, straight up combat, but they do a decent job for what they are designed for: early scouting and some harassment. The unit wasn't meant to be use the way it was in those all reaper builds - that's why it got patched (though, I think the factory requirement for the nitro pack is a little odd).
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On December 23 2010 12:41 Xxavi wrote:
Hey guys, is this tournament coinciding with YGosu Invitational?
This is something I would also like to know.
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Yes they are both scheduled to start at 7 pm KST. I'm more confused about Zenio playing and not even being listed as participating on GOM website?
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Wow I didn't even realise this thing was on, looks like I missed some MVP ownage last night...
I dunno why GOM decided to send MVP out first though. They should have opened with one of the weaker players like Rain, or maybe Leenock vs Clide just to be epic.
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Idra... while i agree you're one of the best (top 5), Non-korean players in the world, i fail to see why you have shuch an issue with a much, much, more accomplished SC1 player beating you at SC2, when he's clearly the better player there aswell.
I fail to understand your logic everytime... you're paid to play right?, or atleast thats the whole point of investing all your time into playing the game in Korea, then, if all the other races are so OVERPOWERD, and zerg is so horrible, why dont you just switch races accordingly... according to yourself your're so incredibly skilled and easly the best player in the world right?, then, i fail to see how you wouldnt have an easy time picking up any other race, and i bet you, the thousands of dollars you'd win just by race swapping would be worth it  .
The reality is that you're not as skilled as you think you're, and rather than thinking objetivelly, and aim to become a better player (Like jinro did), you just live in this delutional world where you thrutly belive you're the best, regardless of what everyone says.
I wish you had friends that had a critic view for you, rather than people just nut hugging you the whole time, yeah man you're a good player and i congratulate you for all the achievements you've accomplished in your life, but everytime you lose there is a reason why you lost, rather than just recognizing the other player might of just played a better game than you that day.
The day when you really critisize your play, and really thrive to get yourself better (rather than thinking you're already the best), you'll see a huge improvement in your play, and then, probably, you'll be able to be one of the, if no the best player in the world.
Right now im having a hard time figuring out why you were invited, rather than July.
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On December 23 2010 11:19 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 10:51 dookudooku wrote:On December 23 2010 10:42 IdrA wrote:
watch all of the pure bio army early/mid game tvz's that have been played recently. just about every single terran can do marine vs bane micro competently. you really thing zergs just being lazy and not trying to figure out how to outmicro it? stimmed marines are just too fast and have too high dps. banelings dont counter them anymore.
the tanks are just there to force attacks and add a bit of damage, its the marines that are the problem and its not a problem thats gonna be nullified with better micro. Micro-wise Terran have it easier than Zerg -- it's easier to control stimmed marines than banelings w/ speed. Still, we see a lot of games where the Terran player loses because the Zerg player is able to kill off the marines with banelings. I still think this the battle is pretty even, but we need to wait to see if that's really the case. I really think Zerg players are not at the level of control needed because of the inherent play-style of Zerg, and Terrans are about a month ahead; give Zerg a month to practice to see if they can catch up. the pure bio play, which relies on the same micro, has been around since foxer vs fd in gsl season 2. its been incredibly popular since then. mvp, a player who is intensely mediocre in other matchups, just 10-1'ed 5 of the best z's in the world. different, stronger style but same base problem. how long till you figure out that its not that marine micro is easier, but that everything is in the hands of the terran? if they know how to execute the micro banelings are not effective, and if banelings arent effective vs marines z has serious problems.
Wow, never headr such a description of MVP.
I don't know what is the ground to say he is "intensely mediocre in other matchups"? He is sitting at the first spot in Korean ladder, he is probably the best SC:BW player to switch over. If that's his description, I don't know what is the description that we can give to other players, including yourself.
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On December 23 2010 13:34 Xxavi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 11:19 IdrA wrote:On December 23 2010 10:51 dookudooku wrote:On December 23 2010 10:42 IdrA wrote:
watch all of the pure bio army early/mid game tvz's that have been played recently. just about every single terran can do marine vs bane micro competently. you really thing zergs just being lazy and not trying to figure out how to outmicro it? stimmed marines are just too fast and have too high dps. banelings dont counter them anymore.
the tanks are just there to force attacks and add a bit of damage, its the marines that are the problem and its not a problem thats gonna be nullified with better micro. Micro-wise Terran have it easier than Zerg -- it's easier to control stimmed marines than banelings w/ speed. Still, we see a lot of games where the Terran player loses because the Zerg player is able to kill off the marines with banelings. I still think this the battle is pretty even, but we need to wait to see if that's really the case. I really think Zerg players are not at the level of control needed because of the inherent play-style of Zerg, and Terrans are about a month ahead; give Zerg a month to practice to see if they can catch up. the pure bio play, which relies on the same micro, has been around since foxer vs fd in gsl season 2. its been incredibly popular since then. mvp, a player who is intensely mediocre in other matchups, just 10-1'ed 5 of the best z's in the world. different, stronger style but same base problem. how long till you figure out that its not that marine micro is easier, but that everything is in the hands of the terran? if they know how to execute the micro banelings are not effective, and if banelings arent effective vs marines z has serious problems. Wow, never headr such a description of MVP. I don't know what is the ground to say he is "intensely mediocre in other matchups"? He is sitting at the first spot in Korean ladder, he is probably the best SC:BW player to switch over. If that's his description, I don't know what is the description that we can give to other players, including yourself.
julys a golden mouse winner whos been playing since early in the beta, hes not exactly dominating. ladder rank is mostly determined by how much you play. fruitdealer is like 80th and hes clearly the best korean z.
watch him play instead of looking at meaningless stuff.
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On December 23 2010 13:40 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 13:34 Xxavi wrote:On December 23 2010 11:19 IdrA wrote:On December 23 2010 10:51 dookudooku wrote:On December 23 2010 10:42 IdrA wrote:
watch all of the pure bio army early/mid game tvz's that have been played recently. just about every single terran can do marine vs bane micro competently. you really thing zergs just being lazy and not trying to figure out how to outmicro it? stimmed marines are just too fast and have too high dps. banelings dont counter them anymore.
the tanks are just there to force attacks and add a bit of damage, its the marines that are the problem and its not a problem thats gonna be nullified with better micro. Micro-wise Terran have it easier than Zerg -- it's easier to control stimmed marines than banelings w/ speed. Still, we see a lot of games where the Terran player loses because the Zerg player is able to kill off the marines with banelings. I still think this the battle is pretty even, but we need to wait to see if that's really the case. I really think Zerg players are not at the level of control needed because of the inherent play-style of Zerg, and Terrans are about a month ahead; give Zerg a month to practice to see if they can catch up. the pure bio play, which relies on the same micro, has been around since foxer vs fd in gsl season 2. its been incredibly popular since then. mvp, a player who is intensely mediocre in other matchups, just 10-1'ed 5 of the best z's in the world. different, stronger style but same base problem. how long till you figure out that its not that marine micro is easier, but that everything is in the hands of the terran? if they know how to execute the micro banelings are not effective, and if banelings arent effective vs marines z has serious problems. Wow, never headr such a description of MVP. I don't know what is the ground to say he is "intensely mediocre in other matchups"? He is sitting at the first spot in Korean ladder, he is probably the best SC:BW player to switch over. If that's his description, I don't know what is the description that we can give to other players, including yourself. julys a golden mouse winner whos been playing since early in the beta, hes not exactly dominating. ladder rank is mostly determined by how much you play. fruitdealer is like 80th and hes clearly the best korean z. watch him play instead of looking at meaningless stuff.
OK, let's see how MVP does in SC2.
But he seems to be one of the better Terran players around.
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EPT
