£5000 PokerIdol.com SC2 - Page 45

On January 09 2011 11:42 Donttazemebro wrote:

Omg, read the thread. The problem from the first game was pinpointed and the caster did not get a chance to explain.

On January 09 2011 11:49 oursblanc wrote:

Calm down. I watched it live. I know exactly what happened. SjoW had no proof that anything was fixed and neither did the caster or the audience, it was all just assumption. Why would he risk another game full of lag spikes?.

On January 09 2011 11:56 YoonHo wrote:
Sorry, I didn't watch this tourney, but I'm interested in this "drama". I skimmed through a bit and. from my understanding, casters lagged and sjow complained? Can someone explain it to me very briefly
:O.

On January 09 2011 09:34 TotalBiscuit wrote:
It's probably not in my best interests to get involved in this, but lots of people are getting blamed who really shouldn't be by the sounds of it and it's a whole bunch of drama.

This is my understanding from the information I've gathered. Please take it with a grain of salt.

The tournament should have had an official, on-site caster. He never showed up. Ragequit stepped in to provide a stream. Had they not done so, the entire tournament would have been a disaster for the sponsors, which means pulling money OUT of the eSports scene in the UK. Not good. sheekthief cast for 6 hours solo, which puts him in the 'like a boss' category in my book.

Sjow was upset about lag. This is understandable, his reaction after a long day of intense playing, also understandable. Not really his call to make to remove the caster, that would be an admin decision and up to the organisers, but you can't blame him for making that known.The fact that this stuff was evening happening at midnight? Ridiculous. Way too late for this kind of thing. Organisational failure, should have been split over 2 days if time was going to be an issue. Lack of reliable on-site caster? Inexcusable failure. I dunno who this guy was, but I know for a fact it was neither myself nor Apollo. This might sound arrogant as shit, but... name one other UK Starcraft 2 caster... because I can't. Who on earth did they ask who then didn't bother to show up?

This concerns me because it's another setback for eSports in the UK and may damage the potential for big money sponsorship in this country for future events.

Again please, grain of salt, I'm coming into this late with limited knowledge.

On January 09 2011 11:51 Pawnawa wrote:
Where is the respect for the players? You can't play a grand final with lag, even if it's just the slightest. This is clearly a major failure by the tournament admins because the lack of a offical caster at the lancenter, or even in the EU, and they are to be blamed, not SjoW nor TLO?

I'm pretty sure the sponsors that put money in expects a offical caster located where the tournament is being held.

On January 09 2011 12:24 qck wrote:
Why attempt to put in your opinion then? Whether or not you're concerned with e-sports; if you're already aware that you are adding nothing to an already heated discussion - other than your big brain - then why would you bother posting?

The fact that this stuff was evening happening at midnight? Ridiculous. Way too late for this kind of thing. Organisational failure, should have been split over 2 days if time was going to be an issue. Lack of reliable on-site caster? Inexcusable failure. I dunno who this guy was, but I know for a fact it was neither myself nor Apollo. This might sound arrogant as shit, but... name one other UK Starcraft 2 caster... because I can't. Who on earth did they ask who then didn't bother to show up?

This concerns me because it's another setback for eSports in the UK and may damage the potential for big money sponsorship in this country for future events.

On January 09 2011 12:38 Domination wrote:


Why do any of us post anything qck? The vast majority of forum posts, including my own, are nothing but hot air anyways. His limited knowledge is way way more than what most people in this thread are posting with so I dare say his post actually holds a little bit more...gravitas than all other posts in this thread except for haypro's and tlo's posts because they are actually there.

Besides, most of what he said isn't opinion. I find this part

pretty unarguable.

On January 09 2011 15:51 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I'll try to add my perspective as well. I think I have more experience as a player and organizer than most which allows for a little more objectivity. I do want to note that I have not seen the manner in which Sjow made his requests so I will try to talk about the essence of the situation and not the way it was delivered. If Sjow sounded like an asshole to you then he sounded like an asshole, but that doesn't mean you need to judge the actual action. It is possible to say he had a good reason to do so and that you find him an asshole at the same time. These things are not mutually exclusive and you should never confuse the two.

A player has to accept certain conditions when he is playing tournaments because it can't all be perfect. A good example would be when a player signs up for a tournament that is not played on his server he accepts to play in delay. This means he has no right to complain about delay because he agreed to it by playing. However the lag of a caster does not fall into this group.

If a terrible playing condition can be solved by the caster leaving then this is the right thing to do. This should have been done by the caster, and the tournament admins. Not doing so was a huge blunder, much moreso than what Sjow did. If Sjow used his star-power to make a caster leave (I will not let you in my games again) then this is definitely wrong, but considering the past 12 hours of the tournament being such a mess a high level of frustration is understandable, and maybe even justified. The computers at the tournament were lagging, the connection was lagging, outside casters had to be brought in because the organization couldn't take care of it themselves. Players put up with all of this so far without public complaints. When in the final of a big money tournament on top of all these things the caster also starts to lag and doesn't leave then that is just too much for a player to handle after he has been dealing with the frustration of organizational incompetence all day long.

I would not be happy if anyone in Liquid handled this the way Sjow did at all and I would definitely yell at them for behaving like this. I believe that when a player signs up for a tournament he puts his faith into the tournament organizers hands and that he should follow the rules he signed up for. Most tournaments have a rule about them deciding whether casters can be in the game, when you sign up for a tournament like this you shouldn't complain about it when it is causing issues. I do want to add that this is a good rule; never should a good tournament organizer put this sort of power in the hands of players. If you dislike such a rule you should not have played the tournament then. Sign up for a tournament, play by their rules. If you didn't like the tournament don't sign up next time.

Clearly the organization made huge mistakes and if that is a reason for players not to come back then that is understandable. I would even go as far as to say very few teams are going to spend their travel budget on this tournament next time. I know Liquid can't afford to send players to tournaments that can't get a proper stream running.

Bottom line is the tournament organizers as well as the caster fucked up by staying in the game, and people saying in this topic that this is a spectator sport need to stfu. Tournaments need to make the decision that casters are not allowed in the game if they lag. Playing conditions should be high priority. These are the individual lifes of young players you are influencing by letting them play in horrible conditions and this is something that should be taken with more responsibility. The argument that viewers are the reason that there is prize money in this tournament is obviously completely ridiculous; as the tournament organizers couldn't even get a proper stream running themselves.

Conclusion: Sjow did something wrong but nothing that deserves to be flamed.

I do want to add once more that spectator sport should not warrant lagging casters whatsoever. Anyone who believes it does is simply wrong. Tournaments can be cast from replays it's not a huge disaster to just let the players play and switch from live to replay cast. It is not a players position to make this call however.

On January 09 2011 13:22 qck wrote:


They're assumptions on a tournament he has had no role in. "This might sound arrogant as shit, but...", does sound 'arrogant as shit'. He's typed airless accusations with no real point other than an advertisement for his own - here comes my opinion - lacklustre shoutcasting.

Though maybe I'm - heavily - biased, because I've read his diatribes on countless other subjects and all of them are heavily inclined towards his own persona without actually discussing the issue at hand. Again, I think anyone, including me, is incredibly stupid for even approaching the subject; as I'm sure the people who ran the tournament are very much aware of their shortfalls and I don't think 5 pages of non-constructive criticism will help them out in future events.

On January 09 2011 15:51 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I'll try to add my perspective as well. I think I have more experience as a player and organizer than most which allows for a little more objectivity. I do want to note that I have not seen the manner in which Sjow made his requests so I will only talk about the essence of the situation and not the way it was delivered. If Sjow sounded like an asshole to you then he sounded like an asshole, but that doesn't mean you need to judge the actual action. It is possible to say he had a good reason to do so and that you find him an asshole at the same time. These things are not mutually exclusive and you should never confuse the two.

A player has to accept certain conditions when he is playing tournaments because it can't all be perfect. A good example would be when a player signs up for a tournament that is not played on his server he accepts to play in delay. This means he has no right to complain about delay because he agreed to it by playing. However the lag of a caster does not fall into this group.

If a terrible playing condition can be solved by the caster leaving then this is the right thing to do. This should have been done by the caster, and the tournament admins. Not doing so was a huge blunder, much moreso than what Sjow did. If Sjow used his star-power to make a caster leave (I will not let you in my games again) then this is definitely wrong, but considering the past 12 hours of the tournament being such a mess a high level of frustration is understandable, and maybe even justified. The computers at the tournament were lagging, the connection was lagging, outside casters had to be brought in because the organization couldn't take care of it themselves. Players put up with all of this so far without public complaints. When in the final of a big money tournament on top of all these things the caster also starts to lag and doesn't leave then that is just too much for a player to handle after he has been dealing with the frustration of organizational incompetence all day long.

I would not be happy if anyone in Liquid handled this the way Sjow did at all and I would definitely yell at them for behaving like this. I believe that when a player signs up for a tournament he puts his faith into the tournament organizers hands and that he should follow the rules he signed up for. Most tournaments have a rule about them deciding whether casters can be in the game, when you sign up for a tournament like this you shouldn't complain about it when it is causing issues. I do want to add that this is a good rule; never should a good tournament organizer put this sort of power in the hands of players. If you dislike such a rule you should not have played the tournament then. Sign up for a tournament, play by their rules. If you didn't like the tournament don't sign up next time.

Clearly the organization made huge mistakes and if that is a reason for players not to come back then that is understandable. I would even go as far as to say very few teams are going to spend their travel budget on this tournament next time. I know Liquid can't afford to send players to tournaments that can't get a proper stream running.

Bottom line is the tournament organizers as well as the caster fucked up by staying in the game, and people saying in this topic that this is a spectator sport need to stfu. Tournaments need to make the decision that casters are not allowed in the game if they lag. Playing conditions should be high priority. These are the individual lifes of young players you are influencing by letting them play in horrible conditions and this is something that should be taken with more responsibility. The argument that viewers are the reason that there is prize money in this tournament is obviously completely ridiculous; as the tournament organizers couldn't even get a proper stream running themselves.

Conclusion: Sjow did something wrong but nothing that deserves to be flamed.

I do want to add once more that spectator sport should not warrant lagging casters whatsoever. Anyone who believes it does is simply wrong. Tournaments can be cast from replays it's not a huge disaster to just let the players play and switch from live to replay cast. It is not a players position to make this call however.