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On November 03 2010 22:46 neoenigma wrote:
So it was almost like a showcase of PvZ abuse... but other than that there wasn't much else to take from the podcast. Which makes me sad. I wanted Nony to rub it in Idra's face and I wanted Idra to have a more heated reaction.
See, that's not very mature though.
It's a computer game, not politics or professional wrestling.
These two have played many games against each other over the years and they don't take it personally.
- Grant
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This thread has turned into total anarchy...
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Hyrule19150 Posts
I want to extend my thanks to GosuCoaching.com for setting this all up, as well as our casting team. I also want to thank everyone who played (for playing!!!1!), they were fun games.
Finally, I want to thank everyone in the overflow channel. As soon as you realized there were no mods there (due to utsream being buggy sometimes), you went off. I started taking down names. I thank everyone I banned for getting my banhammer some fresh air.
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Hyrule19150 Posts
On November 04 2010 00:21 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
This thread has turned into total anarchy...
Again, you should have seen the overflow...
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On November 04 2010 00:09 neoenigma wrote:
But in case you missed my previous post, here is a quick recap on what Nony and Idra talked about with regards to their showmatch:
Nony said that he collected super abusive builds that are almost impossible to beat as zerg and are designed to win in the first 10 minutes. Idra pretty much agreed that they are difficult to defend against. Idra believes PvZ will be protoss favored once everyone discovers the builds that Nony used.
So it was almost like a showcase of PvZ abuse... but other than that there wasn't much else to take from the showmatch or the podcast discussion about it.
Even though Nony and IdrA talked about this themselves, and definitely have way more game knowledge than me, I tend to disagree.
From what I've read and saw, it just seems like timing attacks. He does cut probes, even though he is using the optimal amount for each base. But cutting probes REGARDLESS means that he isn't planning on taking a third base. When you do timing attacks like Nony did you have three outcomes, and that is it.
You either, 1. Win the game or come out so far ahead you can safely expand and keep map control.
Or else you, 2. Lose the game or come out so far behind you cannot safely expand and have no map control.
And then there is 3. You cannot break the opponent's defenses and it ends in a stalemate. The game should be just about equal, because if IdrA wants to defend the build he HAS to cut drones to macro up a force.
Does anyone remember speedlot rushes in PvZ in Brood War? Fast expand into a bunch of gateways, and then you rush your speedlots at the Zerg hitting right before Mutalisk/Lurker tech is done? It was very popular on Blue Storm. What was the solution? Cut drones, make a few sunkens, and mass lings.
Even CHILL said (and I remember him saying this but can't find where) that you have to cut drones to defend it, and the beauty of the Protoss build is that if Zerg doesn't get enough Zerglings, they lose, but if they commit themselves to making too many Zerglings they'll be behind. You basically just want to make "enough" Zerglings for the speedlot rush.
So with this in mind, I think IdrA should have cut drones to defend these rushes, just as Nony cut probes to time his attack. He obviously didn't and you can even see on Shakuras he expanded to a third and tried to saturate it. I really feel IdrA lost these games due to being unprepared for Nony's strategy, or he just wasn't able to defend it. Lack of skill, knowledge, whatever, I don't know.
The only way I can see this build being abusive is if option 3 occurs. If Zerg can defend it but not left with a unit advantage, Protoss AND Zerg are free to expand. And I think Protoss comes out ahead on that deal. But I'm not even sure about that, although it seems to make sense to me.
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Hmm wth. How can Idra lose, especially to a non-korean. I'll have to catch the games later.
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Tyler basically said on SotG podcast that he wasn't comfortable with a long game PvZ (and for reference, I'm pretty sure nobody is atm) so he abused a bunch of semi all-in timing attacks. He executed them pretty spectacularly and Idra, in his usual style, tried to scrape by with the minimum defense each game and got crushed. Great play by Tyler overall.
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On November 04 2010 01:23 SCC-Faust wrote:
I really feel IdrA lost these games due to being unprepared for Nony's strategy, or he just wasn't able to defend it. Lack of skill, knowledge, whatever, I don't know. Luckily, you don't have to guess! Idra was unprepared for the strategy. He said he hadn't encountered that timing before; that he saw (watching replays, I'm guessing, before SotG) that Nony was cutting probes hard, stopping at 38; and that he needs to go experiment to see what the timing on various responses is.
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I think idra lost because he wasn't prepare to all this 1 base or 1.5base all-in build. I think this builds are very good against a pure macro player like Idra, because he always wanna go into a macro game with muta harass. To counter this builds you have to go 2 base with 3 or 4 spine crawler to defend an early agression and transition into an all in roach/hydra with +1/0 or +1/1. A 2 base roach/hydra with upgrades is a all-in because you are screwed if the protoss go 2 base 4+ colossi timing attack (you need a third to afford some corrupters with your mix)
2 base roach/hydra +1/0 or +1/+1> 1 base all in or 2 base 6 gate +1/0 gateway units> 2 base muta/speedling harass into late game> 2 base 4+ colossi timing attack> 2base roach/hydra +1/0 or +1/+1
Edit: to sum up Nony won the war mind game 
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Iraq1230 Posts
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On November 04 2010 02:01 Liquid`HayprO wrote:
this is so sad to read.
Yeah this thread has gone to crap pretty quickly... I mean people saying Idra is crap because of one showmatch? o0 Idra won MLG DC and should still be a major threat at Dallas people getting a little bit carried away. And by a little bit I mean a lot a bit.
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On November 04 2010 01:49 Samhax wrote:I think idra lost because he wasn't prepare to all this 1 base or 1.5base all-in build.
I sincerely doubt that. If he wasn't prepared for pushes like these, what was he prepared for and what did he expect to Tyler to do? I don't think the way games developed surprised anybody, least of all Idra.
There's a theoretical solution for every problem in Starcraft. Sure Idra could go for a less macro-oriented game to "counter" what Nony did. He just doesn't want to. It puts him out of his comfort zone, prevents him from doing what he excels at, and Tyler would have a clear advantage over him in any sort of micro oriented early clash.
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It's been okay for the past 5 or so pages.
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On November 04 2010 02:07 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 01:49 Samhax wrote:I think idra lost because he wasn't prepare to all this 1 base or 1.5base all-in build. I sincerely doubt that. If he wasn't prepared for pushes like these, what was he prepared for and what did he expect to Tyler to do? I don't think the way games developed surprised anybody, least of all Idra. There's a theoretical solution for every problem in Starcraft. Sure Idra could go for a less macro-oriented game to "counter" what Nony did. He just doesn't want to. It puts him out of his comfort zone, prevents him from doing what he excels at, and Tyler would have a clear advantage over him in any sort of micro oriented early clash.
I don't think anyone was prepared for it, this was the deadliest warpgate attack I've ever seen and I can't see it get much more efficient than this. You should be able to get burrow roach in time to hold it if he has no obs, you can unburrow under him or at least go under FF's, but I can't see anything else working. Nony tends to come out with sick efficient builds and just roll someone. Remember the game vs moonglade? What moonglade was doing is starting to get popular again, mass spine muta ling. Pheonix got buffed. Wonder if zergs just have to adapt with corruptors since the colossus switch with the third base can shut down hydra no problems.
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United States22883 Posts
On November 04 2010 02:07 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 01:49 Samhax wrote:I think idra lost because he wasn't prepare to all this 1 base or 1.5base all-in build. I sincerely doubt that. If he wasn't prepared for pushes like these, what was he prepared for and what did he expect to Tyler to do? I don't think the way games developed surprised anybody, least of all Idra. There's a theoretical solution for every problem in Starcraft. Sure Idra could go for a less macro-oriented game to "counter" what Nony did. He just doesn't want to. It puts him out of his comfort zone, prevents him from doing what he excels at, and Tyler would have a clear advantage over him in any sort of micro oriented early clash.
>.> He specifically said he wasn't prepared for that timing with that size of an army. Nony only made 2 geysers and had 2 probes/patch, which made his attack more all-inish than most timing attacks but gave him a better army. It's not that IdrA can't handle all-ins or timing pushes, this was just an exact timing that he was unfamiliar with, and Nony's execution was damn near perfect.
It's not something you can adapt to on the fly unless your opponent makes a mistakes.
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are the replays for the following series after the main event anywhere? i couldnt find on gosucoaching
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On November 04 2010 02:24 RyanRushia wrote:
are the replays for the following series after the main event anywhere? i couldnt find on gosucoaching
Sorry misread your post.
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It'd still be a very hard win even if Idra cut probes. He lost pretty convincingly in some of those games, mostly due to the effectiveness of forcefields. I think it'd really come down to micro alone in being able to dodge the FF with speed roaches on creep, It's hard to think of another way to pull it off.
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On November 04 2010 02:21 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 02:07 Talin wrote:On November 04 2010 01:49 Samhax wrote:I think idra lost because he wasn't prepare to all this 1 base or 1.5base all-in build. I sincerely doubt that. If he wasn't prepared for pushes like these, what was he prepared for and what did he expect to Tyler to do? I don't think the way games developed surprised anybody, least of all Idra. There's a theoretical solution for every problem in Starcraft. Sure Idra could go for a less macro-oriented game to "counter" what Nony did. He just doesn't want to. It puts him out of his comfort zone, prevents him from doing what he excels at, and Tyler would have a clear advantage over him in any sort of micro oriented early clash. >.> He specifically said he wasn't prepared for that timing with that size of an army. Nony only made 2 geysers and had 2 probes/patch, which made his attack more all-inish than most timing attacks but gave him a better army. It's not that IdrA can't handle all-ins or timing pushes, this was just an exact timing that he was unfamiliar with, and Nony's execution was damn near perfect.
I do agree with that. The way I understood the post I replied to, though, led me to believe it was referring more to Tyler's general intention of going all-inish than the exact structure of his strategies.
On the other hand, Idra also played pretty much on razor's edge, deliberately taking the risks for the near-sure win if he manages to repel the first attack.
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EPT
