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I really have to agree with CM. 350 gas? Boo hoo, you just spent 200 gas on a spire which you can easily not make, and he clearly was saving a lot more than an extra 150 gas to make mutas. It goes like this.
Roach vs Gateway is in favour of gateway off creep or with lots of forcefields
Speed roach vs gateway is in favour in speed roaches unless theres lots of forcefields
Burrow roach vs gateway is an easy win for roaches. The only way he can transition safely is to go 2 robo immortals or he dies and nony only had 2 geysers and it takes a small switch to hydra after you have 3 bases up to shut that down and easy switch to mass corruptor off 3 base to shut down colossus. It was a 5 warpgate "allin" after all.
BTW: "If idra is overrated then so is every other player" doesn't work. You could be the best player in the world by far but not recognized because you only ladder or something and you'd be underrated. You could also be the second best player in the world but you could be overrated because everyone thinks you're the best. It's not a measure of skill, its a measure of how good people think you are, with respect to your skill. I think a lot of people assume idra will win 90% or more against anyone outside of korea. Which would most likely be "overrated" except perhaps against terran players, which is what people are getting at. He's still fucking good.
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On November 03 2010 22:18 Kraz.Del wrote:
Charlie, if you looked at the zenio vs nestea games, idra had very similar builds; if IdrA managed to carry them out, he would always be a few units ahead. He failed to adapt by either putting down a few spinecrawlers or an extra hatchery, but other than that he might have had a crazy ZvZ and just had bad luck.
Zenio's ZvZ was shitty as fuck. Artosis even said "I lent idra my build, he didn't have much practice in ZvZ" or whatever. If idra is resorting to getting builds from artosis for ZvZ a day before the match then he doesn't know what the fuck he is doing.
That overseer shit is laughable. Next day we saw Zenio get totally owned by Zergbong, even in a game where he had a HUUGE advantage. Especially since Zenio probably had extra practice in ZvZ considering he had it 2 rounds in a row. So what does that say about Idra's ZvZ?
Besides, his failing to adapt is what is being discussed here. He is overrated.
On November 03 2010 22:31 Slayer91 wrote:
I really have to agree with CM. 350 gas? Boo hoo, you just spent 200 gas on a spire which you can easily not make, and he clearly was saving a lot more than an extra 150 gas to make mutas. It goes like this.
Roach vs Gateway is in favour of gateway off creep or with lots of forcefields
Speed roach vs gateway is in favour in speed roaches unless theres lots of forcefields
Burrow roach vs gateway is an easy win for roaches. The only way he can transition safely is to go 2 robo immortals or he dies and nony only had 2 geysers and it takes a small switch to hydra after you have 3 bases up to shut that down and easy switch to mass corruptor off 3 base to shut down colossus. It was a 5 warpgate "allin" after all.
BTW: "If idra is overrated then so is every other player" doesn't work. You could be the best player in the world by far but not recognized because you only ladder or something and you'd be underrated. You could also be the second best player in the world but you could be overrated because everyone thinks you're the best. It's not a measure of skill, its a measure of how good people think you are. I think a lot of people assume idra will win 90% or more against anyone outside of korea. Which would most likely be "overrated" except perhaps against terran players, which is what people are getting at. He's still fucking good.
This is correct. Idra is good, specifically at ZvT, we cannot doubt that. But what he has shown in other matchups is not up to par, and the amount of fanboys and votes in polls on matches and what not is absurdly overrating Idra.
Sadly, the same goes for most of the foriegners. TLO, and the other TL team people are pretty good but very much overrated. White Ra definitely isn't playing as well as he should be, same for Nony (they both dn't even play that much). Dimaga, Demuslim and other EU players are high level but not godlike compared to just random non famous players on US who consistently show high ladder placement and place highly in random tournies.
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Are there just going to be VODs?
I'd prefer replays because I'm really curious how hard Nony cut his probes in many of the games.
Coming from Brood War, it was my impression that Protoss players never want to stop making probes. Especially in the early-mid game. But when I watched the VODs, when they did focus on the Nexi of Nony, it seems like he halts probe production and instead makes his unit production the number one priority, which seems to be the exact opposite of how it was in Brood War...
Anyone please shed light on me?
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On November 03 2010 22:34 SCC-Faust wrote:
Are there just going to be VODs?
I'd prefer replays because I'm really curious how hard Nony cut his probes in many of the games.
Coming from Brood War, it was my impression that Protoss players never want to stop making probes. Especially in the early-mid game. But when I watched the VODs, when they did focus on the Nexi of Nony, it seems like he halts probe production and instead makes his unit production the number one priority, which seems to be the exact opposite of how it was in Brood War...
Anyone please shed light on me?
He did 2 base timing attacks, he cut probes to maximize his army, they weren't very economic plays past the expansion
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On November 03 2010 22:34 SCC-Faust wrote:
Are there just going to be VODs?
I'd prefer replays because I'm really curious how hard Nony cut his probes in many of the games.
Coming from Brood War, it was my impression that Protoss players never want to stop making probes. Especially in the early-mid game. But when I watched the VODs, when they did focus on the Nexi of Nony, it seems like he halts probe production and instead makes his unit production the number one priority, which seems to be the exact opposite of how it was in Brood War...
Anyone please shed light on me?
Subtle points I'll point out from the vods: He got his first gas up, second gas up, but only put 1 in gas to have 16 on minerals, and he rallied his nexus to the second geyser so 16 probes on minerals was constant. Then he maynarded probes to leave 16 on minerals when his nat was up, with 2 gas. He then rallied both nexuses to the natural and once he got 16 on minerals there stopped probes. That means you have 3+3+16+16 = 38 probes which is the number idra quoted. He chono boosted 3 warpgates and kept them producing mostly sentries at first and then stalkers and zealots as his gas ran low, and added 2 more with mass chrono boost to get what is basically the biggest 2 base warpgate push possible. Never seen anything so cleanly and efficiently executed.
I'm interesting on the timing of the first gas, because white ra delays his to about 17 so he can have 16 probes on minerals at all times as well. So its possible that nony went to 16 on minerals asaply and never went below that.
I'm not sure hydra would have worked. Zealots are actually great against hydras if there is enough that they get in range for a decent amount of time. Guardian shield is really good vs hydras and stalkers only barely lose a 1v1 and considering how hard nony was cutting probes and idra was planning for a macro game, I doubt he could get enough 100/50 hydras to match an warpgate army with tons of 100 zealots which do really well under guardian shield vs hydras.
Obviously once you get enough hydras to melt most of the zealots at the start they win easily, but that timing attack was >fast<. It wasn't like idra saturated his third and got killed by a warpgate push like what happened with huk. He didnt even have his third finished when it was arriving.
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16 Posts
Wow that is a shock that Liquidtyler beat Idra 4-1 i cant wait to watch these Vods
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Okay... so anyone that listened to state of the game last night heard reactions from Nony and Idra. I was expecting a more emotional reaction from both players... but they both kinda sounded like "eh, we played a match and it's over."
Nony said that he collected super abusive builds that are almost impossible to beat as zerg and are designed to win in the first 10 minutes. Idra pretty much agreed. Idra believes PvZ will be protoss favored once everyone discoveres the builds that Nony used.
So it was almost like a showcase of PvZ abuse... but other than that there wasn't much else to take from the podcast. Which makes me sad. I wanted Nony to rub it in Idra's face and I wanted Idra to have a more heated reaction.
One last thing. I get the feeling that this is one of the most elitest web sites I've ever posted on. New posters are shunned as n00bs and are given the credibility of an 8 year old. Not very welcoming.
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On November 03 2010 22:46 neoenigma wrote:
Okay... so anyone that listened to state of the game last night heard reactions from Nony and Idra. I was expecting a more emotional reaction from both players... but they both kinda sounded like "eh, we played a match and it's over."
Nony said that he collected super abusive builds that are almost impossible to beat as zerg... and Idra pretty much agreed. So it was almost like a showcase of PvZ abuse... but other than that there wasn't much else to take from the podcast. Which makes me sad. I wanted Nony to rub it in Idra's face and I wanted Idra to have a more heated reaction.
One last thing. I get the feeling that this is one of the most elitest web sites I've ever posted on. New posters are shunned as n00bs and are given the credibility of an 8 year old. Not very welcoming.
Most new posters post like 8 year old noobs, what can you do? I don't think its intended to be welcoming :D
With regards to the rest of your post. Nony and idra and not 8 year old noobs, they are mature BW veterans who have played time and time against and Nony wasn't going to try to act like he won a macro series and he just said what happened. Whether elitist is a negative connotation or not is totally dependent on the reader.
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Sorry for my ignorance but I assume 16 probes on minerals = the most efficient?
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On November 03 2010 22:39 Annox wrote:
Wow that is a shock that Liquidtyler beat Idra 4-1 i cant wait to watch these Vods
They are not very entertaining, regardless of who you are a fan of. Each one ends in around 8-12 minutes, and at most reach 2 base with an attempt at a third what costs the game.
Check them out though.
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On November 03 2010 22:49 SCC-Faust wrote:
Sorry for my ignorance but I assume 16 probes on minerals = the most efficient?
Correct. Any more than 2 per patch and there will be probe idle time. You will mine MORE but your additional probes will take much longer to pay for themselves. Cutting at 16 has the benefit of both having totally efficient mining and a good level of income, but it means you get a huge surge of units where you're spending all the money that would be spend on 22 or more probes (to get double gas and maximal 2 base income) on units within the time frame that the probes would not have paid for themselves.
I know it takes about 2 minutes of game time to build a drone, have it mine 50 minerals, then build a ling/roach and have it finish. (i.e totally pay for itself) So basically you want to cut drones/workers about 2 game minutes before an "all-in" attack is going to arrive. Having a little more will strengthen the reinforcements and a little less will make the inital attack slightly stronger. (unless a battle happens exactly 2 minutes after you cut, normally the zerg will delay) It doesn't matter a whole lot its just a rule of thumb.
It's possible you can adjust the build to add like 2 more probes and have it slightly better, but this is a very easy way to know that you're making a deadly 5 warpgate push.
I also like how Huk 1 bases with equal or more warpgates than nony 2 bases. LOL
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His ZvZ in GSL was terrible. This PvZ was terrible. And come to think of it, I haven't really seen any good games of his besides and ZvTs. Can you link me some?
vs Kiwikaki at MLG? 2:1 to IdrA.
vs HuK at MLG? 2:0 to IdrA.
vs HuK at EG masters cup? 3:1 to IdrA.
Those are the latest ZvP's I suppose.
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On November 03 2010 22:48 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 22:46 neoenigma wrote:
Okay... so anyone that listened to state of the game last night heard reactions from Nony and Idra. I was expecting a more emotional reaction from both players... but they both kinda sounded like "eh, we played a match and it's over."
Nony said that he collected super abusive builds that are almost impossible to beat as zerg... and Idra pretty much agreed. So it was almost like a showcase of PvZ abuse... but other than that there wasn't much else to take from the podcast. Which makes me sad. I wanted Nony to rub it in Idra's face and I wanted Idra to have a more heated reaction.
One last thing. I get the feeling that this is one of the most elitest web sites I've ever posted on. New posters are shunned as n00bs and are given the credibility of an 8 year old. Not very welcoming. Most new posters post like 8 year old noobs, what can you do? I don't think its intended to be welcoming :D With regards to the rest of your post. Nony and idra and not 8 year old noobs, they are mature BW veterans who have played time and time against and Nony wasn't going to try to act like he won a macro series and he just said what happened. Whether elitist is a negative connotation or not is totally dependent on the reader.
I know Idra and Nony are BW veterans and all... but if you listened to previous podcasts, Nony rubbed his TSL victory in Idra's face so hard. Idra's only response to that was "beat me in SC2 and we'll talk." HOW COULD THEY NOT FOLLOW THIS UP? Ahhh. So unsatisfying.
I don't particularly like elitism because if you want E-sports to grow, you need fans. You want new people to come to Team Liquid and get involved in tournaments and whatnot. Saying things like "all these IdrA fans are complete starcraft noobs and have no idea what they're talking about" is probably going to work against that. If anything, IdrA bringing in new fans is a good thing.
I didn't really get involved until I heard about the TSL and decided to watch the finals on a whim. I saw people posting about how Nony beat some guy named Idra and everyone was super happy about it. I looked up Idra and... well... you know what I discovered. He has a reputation for being a jerk... which I found exciting. It's the Howard Stern effect. People that love him watch him... and people that hate him watch him even more in hopes that he'll lose.
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I'm really impressed by Tyler. He seems to be able to prepare for a match like this so good. It felt as if he knew exactly how each game was going to turn out. Very solid. GGs.
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On November 03 2010 23:02 ParasitJonte wrote:
I'm really impressed by Tyler. He seems to be able to prepare for a match like this so good. It felt as if he knew exactly how each game was going to turn out. Very solid. GGs.
I think if he went a little more hardcore allin on the cannon rush and made 2-3 instead of transitioning to warpgate so far it was a potential 5-0 as well. 1 cannon almost did the trick and brought him almost even if he wanted to 1 gate forge FE off of it.
Nony didn't rub in his victory in so much as JP started up shit about who would be better if they both trained hardcore and obviously nony is going to defend himself 
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Are the replays of this going to be released?
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I didn't get the impression that Tyler played especially good, and I didn't get the impression that Idra played terribly bad, yet the games turned out so short and one sided.
Tyler seems to have picked a good build, made units, and won.
Idra, having a reputation of a macro monster, shouldn't really be losing games like that. I'd really like to hear what Idra has to say about this series coz I sure can't completely understand what was going on.
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On November 03 2010 23:55 niteReloaded wrote:
I didn't get the impression that Tyler played especially good, and I didn't get the impression that Idra played terribly bad, yet the games turned out so short and one sided.
Tyler seems to have picked a good build, made units, and won.
Idra, having a reputation of a macro monster, shouldn't really be losing games like that. I'd really like to hear what Idra has to say about this series coz I sure can't completely understand what was going on.
Again... Idra and Nony talked about it on the State of the Game podcast last night. If you dont know what that is, you should DEFINITELY look into it, as it is the highlight of the week for many starcraft 2 fans. Who WOULDNT want to listen to Day9, Nony, Idra, inControl, and JP talk about Starcraft 2 for 90-120 minutes?
But in case you missed my previous post, here is a quick recap on what Nony and Idra talked about with regards to their showmatch:
Nony said that he collected super abusive builds that are almost impossible to beat as zerg and are designed to win in the first 10 minutes. Idra pretty much agreed that they are difficult to defend against. Idra believes PvZ will be protoss favored once everyone discovers the builds that Nony used.
So it was almost like a showcase of PvZ abuse... but other than that there wasn't much else to take from the showmatch or the podcast discussion about it.
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Okay, I'm sick of these people coming in who don't know all the facts. Let's review how Greg got to where he is today.
Back in 2007, Greg a.k.a. Idra won Starcraft SuperStars, a controversial tournament open to U.S. residents with the chance to win a trip to Korea and join eSTRO. Before that, IdrA had very limited results in Media. Let me put it this way, I cannot recall him winning anything at all. I'm sure Greg would disagree. He knows his own results better than me, but I've been following the scene since the beginning of KBK and Cloudmania Ladder. I helped manage quite a few teams in my day and from what I recall this guy had little to no results.
The guy didn't hit my radar until he joined Media, a group of solid American players with some recognizable names. But, what did they win? Practically nothing. Sure, they climbed up to WGTour division 1 and joined other clan leagues like BWCL but they never won. I think their best results were when they were facing other American teams. So, what were they known for? Spewing a ton of shit in the scene. Not much else. Hell, I remember one time IdrA got Assem to play for him in a major tournament. I really don't have any kind words for Media. I should leave it there. Don't get me wrong, the majority of them were okay. It was mostly Skew and IdrA flaunting their e-penises around way too much back then. Both of those guys thought they were much better than they really were at that time, but both of them would cave under any pressure. All you had to do back then was get them off their game. They had weak nerves and I can understand why they would use self-talk to try and motivate their play back then.
Now that I got that bowel movement off. Back on topic:
Why was Starcraft SuperStars controversial? Well sir, many players and fans outside of the U.S. would bash the format. Like I said before, it was only open to U.S. residents (16 slots available, most players were given special invitations based on who they were). Everyone believed there were better representatives to send to Korea. In the end, IdrA got the golden ticket to Korea. Through Super Dan Man IdrA would receive his Pro Gamer license without having to go through Courage*. Something only two international players have ever accomplished:
- Australian Peter Neate a.k.a. Leggionaire going through the brutal 256 man Bo1 single elimination of death
- American Brian Fransioli, otherwise known as Assem going through the revised format
Why the asterisk? In 2009, during Valor (an international tournament hosted by eSTRO and commentated by Artosis and SDM) SDM would lose his cool with IdrA's attitude. SDM refused to continue commentating the series and would later say "this is not how a pro gamer reacts... he begged me to give him a pro gamer license and this is what he does?" Pretty much word for word. Soon after they would reconcile their differences.
Prior to 2009, every time IdrA would lose (and believe me, he lost a lot) many people would heckle the shit out of him. He had a very small fan base. Most of the time it would be his Media teammates trying to back him up. The guy was always brash and thought he was the best regardless of what happened.
Many believed IdrA would succeed right away based on the fact he was training in Korea, but this wouldn't be the case. It doesn't happen overnight. Players have to re-learn the game. Everything you thought you knew was wrong. NonY and Draco can attest to this as they had to totally re-work their play from the ground up. It took him around a year of training in Korea for him to start improving his results. Heck, it wasn't even in eSTRO where he found fame, but there are several valid arguments for this.
While in eSTRO IdrA found himself playing on ICCUP most of the time because the language barrier was too great and the other players wouldn't take it upon themselves to practice with him. They simply thought he was out of place. He got no respect. He needed a move and fortunately for him he would get it when he met with the CJ Entus manager at other tournaments. CJ provided him with a much better working environment and several months later he was showing progress with the CJ B team. Still, he would fail to qualify in the MSL and OGN prelims. Usually going 0-2 in the first round. I think he did lose 1-2 one time, but other than that no dice. He would always get the quick exit even as he started doing well in international tournaments. It wasn't until 2009 that he started dominating the foreign tournament scene. Sure, IdrA still had his cookie cutter builds like Flash and his 14CC, but IdrA still showed some variance by using cheese in the finals of some tournaments.
What does it take to be a good pro gamer? Work ethic, persistence, good mechanics, micro, game sense and last but not least raw skill. The last one is the most important even though it's the smallest piece of the pie.
Greg's major flaw is his predictability and his thick skull. Other players can figure him out relatively fast. This is detrimental to his success in tournaments. However, this won't have too much effect on his ladder ranking/success yet based off the current system and the player base.
On the bright side, no one can question IdrA's work ethic and persistence in Korea and if you ask any well-known player and they'll say IdrA has solid mechanics. Even when he was back in Media. "Great mechanics, not much else." That's the very reason the eSTRO coaches decided to take him in. He wanted to be the best. No one knew how well he would respond to the move and he responded very well by demonstrating good work ethic to go along with his good mechanics. Two assets of high value in Korea. IdrA never gave up and my hat goes off to him for that. He was very fortunate.
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EPT
