Gosucoaching .com is thrilled to announce our newest and certainly highest profile showmatch -- IdrA vs. Liquid'Tyler (NonY) in a best of 7 epic confrontation for a $400 Prize Pool!! This will be an epic rematch of these two World-renowned StarCraft champions. Once again Gosucoaching is teaming up with ICCup to stream this match. Details are:
Gosucoaching Showmatch Liquid'Tyler (NonY) vs. IdrA Best of 7 Match starts November 02, 2010 - 5:00 PM Pacific Standard Time/ 8:00 PM Eastern Standard Time How to watch: ----> http://www.ustream.tv/iccuptv Maps: Starting Map is Lost Temple. Loser picks from ladder pool. Each player may eliminate one map.
Following the headliner match, we're also pleased to bring to you three more matches which welcome Gosucoaching's newer coaches against some of our more veteran coaches:
(These matches are all Best of 3) MACHINE vs. HasHe ZTR vs. LZgamer Sheth vs. InkA Maps: Starting Map is Metalopolis. Loser picks from ladder pool. Each player may eliminate one map.
Whoever wins the fans win. These two always put on exciting games in one fashion or the other. The CC thing gets waaaaay to much play. Best of luck to both, they deserve it no matter where your allegiance lie.
Edit: Bravo to the organizers that finally got this to happen.
On November 02 2010 13:08 Newbistic wrote: Who are going to be casting these matches?
Looks like Raelcun and Makh, just waiting on Makh to confirm.
Does anyone else kind of see this as fitting for the same day Boxer vs. Nada is going down? 2 Korean BW legends and 2 BW Foreign legends, but all in SCII !
Also mandatory poll for a match like this:
Poll: Who will end up winning from this TSL 2 rematch?
IdrA - : 4-1 (74)
25%
IdrA - : 4-0 (49)
17%
IdrA - : 4-2 (47)
16%
Liquid`Tyler - 4-1 (33)
11%
Liquid`Tyler - 4-3 (33)
11%
Liquid`Tyler- 4-0 (29)
10%
Liquid`Tyler - 4-2 (20)
7%
IdrA - : 4-3 (11)
4%
296 total votes
Your vote: Who will end up winning from this TSL 2 rematch?
This is gonna be sick! I remember listening to the past SOTG podcast episode where NonY and IdrA were lightly talking smack towards each other on how they did in Korea during SC1 days.
I haven't been following the SC2 scene all that much; how good is Nony? I know that Idra is one of the best Zergs in the world (Korea included), is Nony even close to that level?
On November 02 2010 14:38 hitman133 wrote: lol, can't wait to see Nony's phoenixes play. That's his best play against Zerg. But IdrA will take this for sure
Pheonix play is tough vs. Zerg now with range 4 Roaches imo. You can't rely on cannons for much. But I will be taking notes cause if anyone can make them work vZ, it's him.
Edit: Poll is still not in the op, so I'll recopy it here:
Poll: Who will end up winning from this TSL 2 rematch?
IdrA - : 4-1 (74)
25%
IdrA - : 4-0 (49)
17%
IdrA - : 4-2 (47)
16%
Liquid`Tyler - 4-1 (33)
11%
Liquid`Tyler - 4-3 (33)
11%
Liquid`Tyler- 4-0 (29)
10%
Liquid`Tyler - 4-2 (20)
7%
IdrA - : 4-3 (11)
4%
296 total votes
Your vote: Who will end up winning from this TSL 2 rematch?
On November 02 2010 12:48 Microlisk wrote: Idra better not hit that ESC-key.
Ahahaha oh wow, I forgot all about that. Anyways, I rooted for Nony back then but I highly doubt that Nony has had anywhere near as much playtime as Idra. Idra was the more stable player if I recall correctly in the last TSL so I have a feeling he'll win this one 4-2
IdrA seems to be fine against protoss - especially against HuK and KiwiKaki - so i don't see him losing this one, unless Tyler makes him mad like hell using phoenixes
I hope Tyler actually practices for this so he can give us good games. Lately he is either too busy to really play or doesn't have the motivation to do so it seems. Hopefully a rivalry can get him training hard again.
Haven't seen Tyler's PvZ much these days so i'm not sure how it's going to turn out. If he has an unorthodox build prepared, it might catch Idra off guard and give him a chance. If he plays standard games, he'll have to play perfect to topple idra.
Should be fun, hopefully some good games, but if Idra's still in GSL shape... need someone to step up and challenge him before he's just too untouchable on the foreigner scene. Nony fighting =)
They should call this rivalry day. Boxer NaDa and Nony IdrA make this the 24 hours of BW rivalry matches in SC2.
I keep waiting for Tyler to break out and start snapping necks of everyone like he did in BW. Maybe this is the week, although I get the feeling he's waiting for the game to develop more before he can be really successful. The current state of the game doesn't really fit his style.
On November 02 2010 21:56 Kishkumen wrote: They should call this rivalry day. Boxer NaDa and Nony IdrA make this the 24 hours of BW rivalry matches in SC2.
I keep waiting for Tyler to break out and start snapping necks of everyone like he did in BW. Maybe this is the week, although I get the feeling he's waiting for the game to develop more before he can be really successful. The current state of the game doesn't really fit his style.
On November 02 2010 21:38 PokePill wrote: this won't even be remotely close, PvZ in 1 patch has gone from hugely protoss favored to hugely zerg favored
Idra 4-0 in under 45 minutes
Oo That doesn't make sense. IdrA typically prefers the longer macro games. And Nony is really good. I highly doubt it will take less than 90 minutes to finish this series.
Nony became one of my favorite SC1 players after he took out IdrA and then Mondragon to win the TSL. That was so epic. But he really isn't anywhere close to IdrA's level at SC2.
Whoever thought this was a good idea is just silly. IdrA just roflstomped Huk.... so how can Nony win? Makes me sad because I'd love to see Nony take it.
On November 02 2010 23:36 tofucake wrote: That's because you set your timezone in your profile. If you're a guest or you didn't set it, it's all in KST.
No, it shows that for everybody. Edit: Never mind, ignore what I had here before. The real problem is that nobody ever checks the calendar for the time, or else does but doesn't want to do any math at all. Of course, since the calendar always has the KST time, people can just look at that and know what to look for on TL's clock (or know that it's about 9 hours from now, and just do the math to figure out when it starts in their local time).
On November 02 2010 23:36 tofucake wrote: That's because you set your timezone in your profile. If you're a guest or you didn't set it, it's all in KST.
No, it shows that for everybody. Edit: Never mind, ignore what I had here before. The real problem is that nobody ever checks the calendar for the time, or else does but doesn't want to do any math at all. Of course, since the calendar always has the KST time, people can just look at that and know what to look for on TL's clock (or know that it's about 9 hours from now, and just do the math to figure out when it starts in their local time).
Indeed, not even those who tell others what information it holds.
On topic, this should turn out pretty one-sided. IdrA has become Grack and Tyler isn't NonY anymore.
Let's not kid ourselves here...4-0 IdrA easily. I've seen some of Tyler's PvZ's in the TL opens and other events and it's really nothing to write home about...
This is so epic. I know Tyler and Idra are on good terms so it can't be considered a grudge match, but it's still hard to get over the old TSL rivalry. Tyler hasn't been performing as well as people would have liked in SC 2 and this is his chance to show that he's going to be a real contender for the upcoming MLG. Idra, meanwhile, is in one of the best shapes of his career despite losing to Zenio, and is a sure favorite for the upcoming tournaments. So Tyler is definitely going in as the underdog.
On November 03 2010 00:51 Logican wrote: im a P player, and I truly hope that we have some top tier Ps in the world. But realistically, idra will take this easily, 4-0 or 4-1
This is my concern. But I haven't seenn Nony play in quite a while. I really hope he wrecks idra (and I'm a big Idra fan).
i know this is an american event and that everyone can google time but for me cet just should be in the post as well as american times because so many europeans will watch this too
On November 03 2010 01:41 CoR wrote: what kind of CET is it ?
i know this is an american event and that everyone can google time but for me cet just should be in the post as well as american times because so many europeans will watch this too
On November 02 2010 22:15 Congism wrote: Idra is going to crush nony.
Logic definitely says this. And in fact it seems the skill gap is bigger now than it was in TSL 2. But Nony is quite the genius and I think he'll definitely do something cool, this doesn't seem like the type of thing that he would just blow off. I'll vote Idra 4-2.
On November 03 2010 05:03 Ewli wrote: I hope that nony can take some games from IdrA, but I am afraid he will get roflstomped
Mhm quite my thoughts - I'd love Nony to do well, but IdrA just seems so solid in ZvT and ZvP right now, nothing appears to be threatening to him right now.
I am totally expecting that Nony buckled down, and went into some crazy hardcore SC Super saiyan mode and figured out crazy timings and BO's that no one has ever thought of just to beat IdrA.
I got to say I may be partial (I proposed this match originally! ) but I'm super excited for this. I think while IdrA has the relentless practice schedule that should give him an edge, Tyler is one player who can make IdrA play the game to his beat.
If you let IdrA set the pace of the game, there's a massive chance you will lose. Tyler has played him enough across the years to know IdrA's general style and put him out of his comfort zone. Kiwikaki did this well at MLG, although once it was apparent he was not going to stop cannon rushing in game 2 and 3 it allowed IdrA to get back in his zone and set the tempo again. But game 1 and the first 8 mins or so of 2 IdrA looked very beatable.
You just can't account for the raw talent a player like Nony has, much like Ret he can gain what would take me 500 games to gain in 20-30. That being said, I am thinking IdrA will take this 4-2, I don't believe Pheonix's are ultra viable now like they were pre 1.1.2 where you didn't have to worry about Roach busts. It makes it sort of hard to set the tempo when your main weapon is severely crippled. I would not be surprised to see it go 4-2 the other way either but it should be good no matter what, Tyler looked very solid in DC.
Although Idra was a favorite in BW as well, I always believed Nony would win (and was proven right). I don't believe there is any way for Nony to beat Idra in SC2 given their respective skill levels at the game.
Go Nony! I am so excited to see your PvZ. Especially, your transitions into the lategame and your openings.
I predict at least one stargate opening.
Will we see something else than 3gate forge expand from Nony?
You are the man! I like your attitude towards the game in general. So much more mature and intelligent than most of the players. Idra's a great Z player, however, his attitude... yay... and I dont mean just the general and blatant BM. If Idra could bring some humor to his BM, it would be fine...
On November 03 2010 06:27 metaldragon wrote: If Huk ALmost beat Idra im sure Nony can take it to at least 3-4
When did that ever happen?
At MLG DC it was 2-0 for IdrA, at EG Masters it was 3-1 for IdrA.
that's right, but I could bet that HuK and Tyler discussed those matches and figured out the flaws so that they wont be repeated in this case. personally, I would love to see Tyler win, but I feel this will be pretty hard. this will be exciting nonetheless! predictions :
my heart says Tyler 4 IdrA 3 my head says Tyler 1 Idra 4
On November 03 2010 06:27 metaldragon wrote: If Huk ALmost beat Idra im sure Nony can take it to at least 3-4
When did that ever happen?
At MLG DC it was 2-0 for IdrA, at EG Masters it was 3-1 for IdrA.
that's right, but I could bet that HuK and Tyler discussed those matches and figured out the flaws so that they wont be repeated in this case. personally, I would love to see Tyler win, but I feel this will be pretty hard. this will be exciting nonetheless! predictions :
my heart says Tyler 4 IdrA 3 my head says Tyler 1 Idra 4
On November 03 2010 06:27 metaldragon wrote: If Huk ALmost beat Idra im sure Nony can take it to at least 3-4
When did that ever happen?
At MLG DC it was 2-0 for IdrA, at EG Masters it was 3-1 for IdrA.
that's right, but I could bet that HuK and Tyler discussed those matches and figured out the flaws so that they wont be repeated in this case. personally, I would love to see Tyler win, but I feel this will be pretty hard. this will be exciting nonetheless! predictions :
my heart says Tyler 4 IdrA 3 my head says Tyler 1 Idra 4
Heart: 4-3 Nony. Head: 4-0 IdrA
Wait, do you mean "4-0 in the favour of IdrA" or 4-0, 0 for IdrA?
Either way I personally want a 4-3 for either player and no games under 15 minutes and no "macro until 1 battle game ends kk", a lot of back and forth without any clear winner for most of the game(s), please.
That said I think IdrA will 4-1 Nony and it'll be stupidly one sided. Hoping I'm wrong though.
On November 03 2010 08:27 teko wrote: Winning or losing, I'm always cheering for TeamLiquid! Go Nony, use tons of early aggressions against the gracken!
On November 03 2010 08:27 teko wrote: Winning or losing, I'm always cheering for TeamLiquid! Go Nony, use tons of early aggressions against the gracken!
On November 03 2010 08:27 teko wrote: Winning or losing, I'm always cheering for TeamLiquid! Go Nony, use tons of early aggressions against the gracken!
Yeah...I really wish they'd have someone like InControl casting this. The match is big enough that it could use someone that is familiar with both and can commentate competently at a high level (no offense to Raelcun, but honestly).
Looking forward to this. As a zerg player it's always a pleasure watching IdrA play.
I predict this will be a somewhat easy 4-0 for IdrA. I just don't think Tyler has the practice needed to stand toe-to-toe with IdrA at this moment. I haven't been that impressed with what i've seen from him lately at all to be honest.
I'd love to look like a fool afterwards though if it means Tyler wins. I really like Tyler as a person and would love to see him take down IdrA.
Maybe Tyler never plays because he's secretly playing on another account practicing builds, and wants to create the perception that he doesn't play so people underestimate him. lol.
On November 03 2010 08:55 Zzoram wrote: Maybe Tyler never plays because he's secretly playing on another account practicing builds, and wants to create the perception that he doesn't play so people underestimate him. lol.
You should never expect any SC2 event to start on time. There is always some delay, whether it's of a technical nature, or just because some of the people didn't show up on time. For US-based events this is really annoying, since I don't want to stay up too late (it's 1am now). :/
Sigh, fucking unprofessional. How long is going to take before people realize they need to get set up and ready to go 30 minutes before a high-profile event?
On November 03 2010 09:06 Zerokaiser wrote: Sigh, fucking unprofessional. How long is going to take before people realize they need to get set up and ready to go 30 minutes before a high-profile event?
On November 03 2010 09:06 Zerokaiser wrote: Sigh, fucking unprofessional. How long is going to take before people realize they need to get set up and ready to go 30 minutes before a high-profile event?
I say this to myself for every event...which is a sad thing.
On November 03 2010 09:07 XsebT wrote: I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but is the higher quality on ustream really worth it worth no stability at all? X_X
We had even less stability with Livestream.....
Ustream is the least of all evils but none of the streaming serviced are 100% perfect.
On November 03 2010 09:06 Zerokaiser wrote: Sigh, fucking unprofessional. How long is going to take before people realize they need to get set up and ready to go 30 minutes before a high-profile event?
It's 8 minutes past the start time, and they're not a paid service as far as I know, so yes, literally they not professionals..? So self-entitled..
Yes. People should cut event organizers more slack because there isn't a reliable streaming solution anywhere yet. Just look at the daily; day9 is probably the most experienced streamer out there and he has problems pretty much all the time. Consider it part of the charm and roll with it.
On November 03 2010 09:09 Elevenst wrote: hopefully nony can put up some good games and doesn't just get stomped because he practices about as much as i practice yoddeling (sp?)
On November 03 2010 08:52 Corrupted wrote: Yeah...I really wish they'd have someone like InControl casting this. The match is big enough that it could use someone that is familiar with both and can commentate competently at a high level (no offense to Raelcun, but honestly).
considering that this is apparently sponsored by gosucoaching im surprised nobody at gosucoaching is helping to cast
On November 03 2010 09:06 Zerokaiser wrote: Sigh, fucking unprofessional. How long is going to take before people realize they need to get set up and ready to go 30 minutes before a high-profile event?
Yea, unprofessional. It's almost like they're doing this for the community without getting paid or profiting for it....
On November 03 2010 09:06 Zerokaiser wrote: Sigh, fucking unprofessional. How long is going to take before people realize they need to get set up and ready to go 30 minutes before a high-profile event?
It's 8 minutes past the start time, and they're not a paid service as far as I know, so yes, literally they not professionals..? So self-entitled..
It's not self-entitlement. I'm not the type of person to bitch about a 360p video on youtube.
These guys aren't unknown and can expect to draw a few thousand viewers for this event. For them to not get set up a bit early is irresponsible.
On November 03 2010 09:06 Zerokaiser wrote: Sigh, fucking unprofessional. How long is going to take before people realize they need to get set up and ready to go 30 minutes before a high-profile event?
Yea, unprofessional. It's almost like they're doing this for the community without getting paid or profiting for it....
no kidding, what is wrong with these people.
and what huge event doesn't start 10 minutes late anyways? this is america.
On November 03 2010 09:06 Zerokaiser wrote: Sigh, fucking unprofessional. How long is going to take before people realize they need to get set up and ready to go 30 minutes before a high-profile event?
It's 8 minutes past the start time, and they're not a paid service as far as I know, so yes, literally they not professionals..? So self-entitled..
It's not self-entitlement. I'm not the type of person to bitch about a 360p video on youtube.
These guys aren't unknown and can expect to draw atleast a few thousand viewers for this event. For them to not get set up a bit early is irresponsible.
Yeah, would've been cool if they were on time. It's also a free high quality stream covering high profile events. I'll repeat, a free high quality stream.
On November 03 2010 09:07 XsebT wrote: I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but is the higher quality on ustream really worth it worth no stability at all? X_X
We had even less stability with Livestream.....
Ustream is the least of all evils but none of the streaming serviced are 100% perfect.
Yeah, of course I can't speak for your expirience, but I've litterally never had problems with livestream.com :/ - Any problems has always been on my end. Well, I'm essentially talking shit, since I'm not one to tell you what to do. :D GLHF with the match. Gonna be fun.
On November 03 2010 09:07 XsebT wrote: I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but is the higher quality on ustream really worth it worth no stability at all? X_X
We had even less stability with Livestream.....
Ustream is the least of all evils but none of the streaming serviced are 100% perfect.
It might have to do with me being in Europe (they could be prioritizing the US audience because of ads?), but from lots of experience I can say that Ustream works lots better for me than Livestream. Livestream is always pausing and lagging and only runs smoothly if I refresh a thousand times and get lucky. Ustream has better quality and is more reliable. So thanks!
On November 03 2010 09:06 Zerokaiser wrote: Sigh, fucking unprofessional. How long is going to take before people realize they need to get set up and ready to go 30 minutes before a high-profile event?
It's 8 minutes past the start time, and they're not a paid service as far as I know, so yes, literally they not professionals..? So self-entitled..
It's not self-entitlement. I'm not the type of person to bitch about a 360p video on youtube.
These guys aren't unknown and can expect to draw atleast a few thousand viewers for this event. For them to not get set up a bit early is irresponsible.
Yeah, would've been cool if they were on time. It's also a free high quality stream covering high profile events. I'll repeat, a free high quality stream.
You're just being extremely ungrateful.
I'm hugely grateful for the stream, but it doesn't make it any less irksome for me that they don't prepare properly. Does anybody remember Day9's daily about how his countdown almost didn't happen? Day9 had great intentions but it took everybody who showed up to even get that running. How smiley do you think people would have been if that event never aired in the end?
EDIT: Either way, the games are on now, let's enjoy and cheer.
i just get a white blank stream when viewed embedded on teamliquid.net and when i try to view on ustream it just keeps loading and loading the page but it never does
On November 03 2010 09:21 On_Slaught wrote: Lol Nony wins game 1 in like 5min with a stalker push that idra was out of position in defending, lost his roaches and instantly GGed.
Close positions on LT though so it pretty much has to be fast.
money forcefields, nothing less to be expected of nony. FIGHTING!
although that fast roach speed 13 roach attack build order by Idra was impressive, probably specifically for close position spawns...pretty interesting, but was directly countered by nony's stalker/sentry mix...lol. Kinda gave that one to Nony gift wrapped, Idra probably only intended for a contain, actually.
On November 03 2010 09:21 On_Slaught wrote: Lol Nony wins game 1 in like 5min with a stalker push that idra was out of position in defending, lost his roaches and instantly GGed.
Close positions on LT though so it pretty much has to be fast.
There was no stalker push, IdrA initiated it with some skewed spine crawler/speed roach timing attack, completely underestimated Nony's unit count- many many sentries on full mana
idra srs bsns mode now? i hope/assume he's very confident in his play -- to the point that he'd rather start fresh on a new game than fight a disadvantaged one...
cocky move out for sure. 400$ on the line, gogo glhf
On November 03 2010 09:21 On_Slaught wrote: Lol Nony wins game 1 in like 5min with a stalker push that idra was out of position in defending, lost his roaches and instantly GGed.
Close positions on LT though so it pretty much has to be fast.
Nony didn't push. Nony was defending IdrA's push. did u even watch the game?
IdrA always donates the first game of a series, just like he did with Huk recently. This was a bad half assed attack. Now he will start playing for real and finish it 4:1.
On November 03 2010 09:21 On_Slaught wrote: Lol Nony wins game 1 in like 5min with a stalker push that idra was out of position in defending, lost his roaches and instantly GGed.
Close positions on LT though so it pretty much has to be fast.
Idra wasnt defending he was attacking.
You're right. I tabbed back to the game just as the fight started and didn't see how it was set up. Bad word choice but with those close of spawns they are basically the same thing . The two foward spine crawlers was pretty interesting too (was waiting on creep prob).
Holy shit I got to get my cup b/c everyone is on my balls. I made a mistake. I missed the push and just saw the fight (tho I should of paid more attention to the position). Chillax.
All in comming from Nony. Doesn't have a chance in hell of catching up economically to Idra who is making his 3rd and seems to have 2 fully saturated bases.
On November 03 2010 09:24 Knutzi wrote: wtf was idra doing that game
all-ined because he didn't want to play macro game on close positions. Could have worked but Nony used like 20 FFs....
I like the passive aggressive dots almost suggesting that nony did not land extremely good forcefields or build his unit composition around landing them.
IdrA's prompt surrenders evidence both his game understanding and (I may be imagining this one) his respect for his opponents. As soon as he assesses a decisive advantage for his opponent, he simply assumes that his opponent is competent and will exploit that advantage to its utmost.
Dont' understand why Idra didn't take control of watch towers. If he had he would have seen that push and prepared better. Even though he held it and won it wouldn't havae been anywhere near that close if he had those watch towers xD.
On November 03 2010 09:24 Knutzi wrote: wtf was idra doing that game
all-ined because he didn't want to play macro game on close positions. Could have worked but Nony used like 20 FFs....
I like the passive aggressive dots almost suggesting that nony did not land extremely good forcefields or build his unit composition around landing them.
On November 03 2010 09:32 EchOne wrote: IdrA's prompt surrenders evidence both his game understanding and (I may be imagining this one) his respect for his opponents. As soon as he assesses a decisive advantage for his opponent, he simply assumes that his opponent is competent and will exploit that advantage to its utmost.
On November 03 2010 09:32 EchOne wrote: IdrA's prompt surrenders evidence both his game understanding and (I may be imagining this one) his respect for his opponents. As soon as he assesses a decisive advantage for his opponent, he simply assumes that his opponent is competent and will exploit that advantage to its utmost.
I think it is also a practical decision. If he plays his hardest he may have a tiny chance (maybe 1-5%) to come back and he will be playing much harder than his opponent. It may not be worth expending that effort in a BO7, whereas in a BO3 it's more likely he would pull out all of the stops.
On November 03 2010 09:32 EchOne wrote: IdrA's prompt surrenders evidence both his game understanding and (I may be imagining this one) his respect for his opponents. As soon as he assesses a decisive advantage for his opponent, he simply assumes that his opponent is competent and will exploit that advantage to its utmost.
Perhaps, but we have all seen big comebacks. I won't question him for doing this, since he is still very successful, but I have absolutely zero doubt that if he would of stayed in some of the games he quickly GGed out of, he would have won them.
On November 03 2010 09:33 AlBundy wrote: What's with the early GGs? Is it a showmatch or not??? I'm fucking confused. I feel like I'm watching smurfs laddering.
They understand the game far better than you, so they know when they have lost and when to GG, unlike you.
On November 03 2010 09:33 AlBundy wrote: What's with the early GGs? Is it a showmatch or not??? I'm fucking confused. I feel like I'm watching smurfs laddering.
You wanted him to continue playing after losing his all army while being 1 base vs 3 ?
Yes i hope we see some longer games but that wasn't an early GG.
On November 03 2010 09:32 EchOne wrote: IdrA's prompt surrenders evidence both his game understanding and (I may be imagining this one) his respect for his opponents. As soon as he assesses a decisive advantage for his opponent, he simply assumes that his opponent is competent and will exploit that advantage to its utmost.
Perhaps, but we have all seen big comebacks. I won't question him for doing this, since he is still very successful, but I have absolutely zero doubt that if he would of stayed in some of the games he quickly GGed out of, he could have won them.
That makes sense for the decisive game, but it's pretty exhausting to fight from behind. In series play you gotta think about managing your own condition as well. Idra made the right decision imo.
On November 03 2010 09:33 AlBundy wrote: What's with the early GGs? Is it a showmatch or not??? I'm fucking confused. I feel like I'm watching smurfs laddering.
Idra had double Tyler's workers in game 2, how was that an early GG from Tyler?
On November 03 2010 09:33 AlBundy wrote: What's with the early GGs? Is it a showmatch or not??? I'm fucking confused. I feel like I'm watching smurfs laddering.
They understand the game far better than you, so they know when they have lost and when to GG, unlike you.
Weirder comebacks have happened, Demuslim v Bratok on Steppes during the Take Homecoming thing for one. Then again you can't really blame anyone for the GGs in those positions, would've been cool to see them duke it out to the end though.
Had to spam chat in all caps to get an auto-kick. Couldn't take the idiocy in chat any longer. Anywho, there have been no early gg's. People need to seriously examine those matches before opening their mouths. Tyler had equal army when he gg'd and hadn't even started his nat while Idra was on lair tech AND was getting his 3rd.
Well that's a loser's attitude. I want to see godlike macro and epic comebacks! The first two games were definitely diamond ladder level. Uninteresting.
On November 03 2010 09:33 AlBundy wrote: What's with the early GGs? Is it a showmatch or not??? I'm fucking confused. I feel like I'm watching smurfs laddering.
They understand the game far better than you, so they know when they have lost and when to GG, unlike you.
Weirder comebacks have happened, Demuslim v Bratok on Steppes during the Take Homecoming thing for one. Then again you can't really blame anyone for the GGs in those positions, would've been cool to see them duke it out to the end though.
These two situations were nothing alike. Tyler had no tech beyond cyber when he gg'd.
Pretty good blink micro. Enough to keep most every stalker in the green and making lings completely useless (which they always are against blink stalkers).
On November 03 2010 09:39 AlBundy wrote: Well that's a loser's attitude. I want to see godlike macro and epic comebacks! The first two games were definitely diamond ladder level. Uninteresting.
There is no epic comeback, Tyler went all-in and decisively lost the final battle. If we had wiped out all but a few of Idra's roaches then it still would have been massively in Idra's favor. Instead Idra had like 12 roaches left.
On November 03 2010 09:42 On_Slaught wrote: Pretty good blink micro. Enough to keep most every stalker in the green and making lings completely useless (which they always are against blink stalkers).
.
Actually, mass ling can be decent vs blink stalkers. I think it was more a problem of having made too many drones than of having the wrong unit composition.
These caster's are alright. Major thanks for volunteering to cast this. But I'm just imagining incontrol and jp and day9 casting this as a sotg special
I don't understand how Idra wins any games against protoss when he is so fucking greedy. Are players not attacking for 30min? Nony had literally like double the army when that engagement happened. Even without the FFs he would of completely stomped that roach army.
this is so much funnier if youve heard the SotG episode with idra and nony where they both trash talked each other and nony talked about how the past showed that when a lot is on the line and nony takes it seriously he'll still be the victor over idra
im certainly not gonna count idra out yet though :p
Tyler crafted his builds as usual and I think Idra just isn't used to seeing this many units from Protoss this early. It seems like Idra's unit timings are completely off. As always Tyler is a master of exploiting the "meta-game," cutting probes and saving boosts to get just the overwhelming number of units that Idra does not expect to face.
On November 03 2010 09:55 On_Slaught wrote: I don't understand how Idra wins any games against protoss when he is so fucking greedy. Are players not attacking for 30min? Nony had literally like double the army when that engagement happened. Even without the FFs he would of completely stomped that roach army.
It's not really greedy... what if Nony used all that chrono boost on Nexus and got robo instead of mass gateway, and Idra made a big army? He'd be screwed. I guess he's just not scouting well enough.
On November 03 2010 09:55 On_Slaught wrote: I don't understand how Idra wins any games against protoss when he is so fucking greedy. Are players not attacking for 30min? Nony had literally like double the army when that engagement happened. Even without the FFs he would of completely stomped that roach army.
It's not really greedy... what if Nony used all that chrono boost on Nexus and got robo instead of mass gateway, and Idra made a big army? He'd be screwed. I guess he's just not scouting well enough.
This for sure. It is still mind blowing that in two games now he has entered an engagement with, at best, half of the army size. The FFs just make the fights more one-sided then they would be otherwise.
Bets on Idra showing up to sotg??? Haha, jp. Idra's a pretty stand up guy now. gratz nony. Not sure why the gg was so instant. He might have been able to double pump queens.
On November 03 2010 08:53 Shika wrote: Looking forward to this. As a zerg player it's always a pleasure watching IdrA play.
I predict this will be a somewhat easy 4-0 for IdrA. I just don't think Tyler has the practice needed to stand toe-to-toe with IdrA at this moment. I haven't been that impressed with what i've seen from him lately at all to be honest.
I'd love to look like a fool afterwards though if it means Tyler wins. I really like Tyler as a person and would love to see him take down IdrA.
Quoting my earlier post. Damn does it feel good looking like a fool sometimes!
On November 03 2010 10:01 CalmDown.Breathe wrote: Can't wait for tonight's State of the Game podcast. Going to be recorded with IdrA and Nony... ahahahahaha going to be great. Prepare for raaaaaaage
Ohh, that will be totally epic, I hope they talk about it, and Nony talks shit, it would be HILARIOUS.
On November 03 2010 10:01 CalmDown.Breathe wrote: Can't wait for tonight's State of the Game podcast. Going to be recorded with IdrA and Nony... ahahahahaha going to be great. Prepare for raaaaaaage
On November 03 2010 10:01 SubtleArt wrote: Wtf idra how does he lose to Nony yet beat Huk so badly lol
I would imagine that IdrA wasn't taking this as serious as MLG but I could be wrong. Nony is quite good and like someone already mentioned. Nony is IdraA's kryptonite
WP Tyler, glad to see you can beat IdrA Huk doesn't seem to come close, but you seemed pretty dominant, especially in the game on shakuras plateau. GG!
On November 03 2010 10:01 CalmDown.Breathe wrote: Can't wait for tonight's State of the Game podcast. Going to be recorded with IdrA and Nony... ahahahahaha going to be great. Prepare for raaaaaaage
I wouldnt be surprised if Idra skips it
He won't skip it. You make it sound as if he'll be but hurt about this.
On November 03 2010 10:01 Sixes wrote: Well, to me it just supports that even at a high level Protoss are just a race for gimmicky all ins.
Not surprising a lot of pros avoids them given the rock/paper/scissor of build orders.
On the contrary, the Protoss 200/200 army is infamously impossible for Zerg to deal with. Question is, why waste time getting there when you can just kill the guy?
Hopefully IdrA just wasn't showing his stuff before MLG Dallas!
Also even with roach change, it changed nothing with roaches, you just need better forcefields! Good forcefields are so hard to defeat! Seem to be having trouble myself, depressing seeing Idra have trouble also!
On November 03 2010 10:01 CalmDown.Breathe wrote: Can't wait for tonight's State of the Game podcast. Going to be recorded with IdrA and Nony... ahahahahaha going to be great. Prepare for raaaaaaage
I wouldnt be surprised if Idra skips it
I can't remember the last time Idra dodged anything.
On November 03 2010 10:01 SubtleArt wrote: Wtf idra how does he lose to Nony yet beat Huk so badly lol
Nony is a better player than Huk.
Also Idra tilts pretty hard against Nony =[.
Yep. Huk practices twice as much, but Nony just has a lot of talent. He's always been better than Idra with less practice. The only thing holding back a lot of the best and most talented foreigners is motivation and a life. Nony and White-Ra have wives, which really cuts back their practice time even though they have buckets of talent.
On November 03 2010 10:01 Antoine wrote: idra GGs way too soon... people have come back from further behind in the GSL.
Not sure what you were referring to there... (spoilers from GSL2 round of 8)+ Show Spoiler +
even in Game 3 of Zenio vs NesTea, Zenio was all in so he was vulnerable when NesTea was stopped. Idra was gonna lose all roaches to void rays, Nony err... Tyler wasn't all in, and Idra wasn't going to have anything to counterattack OR defend with.
On November 03 2010 10:01 MisterPuppy wrote: lag killed idra, thats why he quit. no other explanation after what happened at the end of game 1
I disagree, NonY successfully blocked IdrA from seeing the stargate and instead convinced IdrA that he was going 4-gate, so IdrA was going Roaches/Speedlings. Once he saw the two V-Rays, he knew he had no Anti-Air (except for his queens but that's just base defense), and he was already down 3-1. The V-Rays would have killed all the Roaches and left IdrA open to NonY's rather large army.
GG.
IdrA stated in the cast that he had ZERO lag problems.
On November 03 2010 10:01 Fojji wrote: Tyler the best Foreigner.
That's a joke, right? Please tell me that is a joke.
This series was silly. Something didn't seem right. But I guess we'll have to wait until Dallas to find out who "the best foreigner" really is.... wont we?
On November 03 2010 10:01 CalmDown.Breathe wrote: Can't wait for tonight's State of the Game podcast. Going to be recorded with IdrA and Nony... ahahahahaha going to be great. Prepare for raaaaaaage
I wouldnt be surprised if Idra skips it
He won't skip it. You make it sound as if he'll be but hurt about this.
It's IdrA. It's not like he is depressed now and he and Nony are friends so I seriously doubt he is going to skip it. IdrA is still super good and he knows it, this doesn't change anything so why not show up? :>
On November 03 2010 10:03 On_Slaught wrote: Is nony going to be going over to GSL anytime soon or was he the one who is sticking back in the US? I know ret is heading over for sure.
Nony has made it pretty clear he wants North America to be his stage... hes got stuff going on state side, responsibilities etc..
Tyler played beautifully. None of his plays were all in or cheesy except for the 4 gate he lost on during Metal. Both players played well. Hope they meet during MLG Dallas.
Yeah the game was probably over, while you can take out 2 void rays with queens, the phoenix was already finished and would massively skew the queen vs void ray battles.
lmao at people saying idra is hiding strats... 95% of games he plays standard, and he played standard all the games i saw (xel'naga onwards) except the final blistering game where he did the most predictable zerg push ever, and nony blind hard countered.
On November 03 2010 10:05 Incanus wrote: Nony is friggin awesome, the master of messing with Idra's head and taking advantage of everything. Hopefully Idra wasn't lagging too much. GGs.
On November 03 2010 10:05 Incanus wrote: Nony is friggin awesome, the master of messing with Idra's head and taking advantage of everything. Hopefully Idra wasn't lagging too much. GGs.
IdrA is in the US. No lag conspiracy theories here !
lol @ idra fans saying hes hiding strats. He wouldn't play this showmatch if he didn't want to win. Nony just has him figured out and lands great timings
On November 03 2010 10:01 MisterPuppy wrote: lag killed idra, thats why he quit. no other explanation after what happened at the end of game 1
I disagree, NonY successfully blocked IdrA from seeing the stargate and instead convinced IdrA that he was going 4-gate, so IdrA was going Roaches/Speedlings.
IdrA stated in the cast that he had ZERO lag problems.
I'm pretty sure IdrA thought Nony was going for a 3gate into expand, and that's why he decided to pressure. And IdrA usually doesn't early pressure. 4 gate builds drop the three gates at the same time after the first.
3 gate Void Ray is a popular build on NA ladder. Not sure about Korea but I feel like IdrA should have been able to sniff that out.
You know you are a badass when you beat Idra and tons of people complain that it was boring. Dominant stuff from Nony...can only imagine the craziness if he takes down MLG Dallas as well.
I am in the boat of IdrA not wanting to reveal much so he played safe every game. We'll hopefully see a rematch in Dallas and see then. It was just kind of a flat series from IdrA which is surprising for such a solid player.
wow bunch of idiots in here. I liked nony from bw, but to say that he is the best or idra sucks is just a testament to how much ppl are dumb enough to jump on band wagons and make stupid comments. you do realize the biggest mlg lan is in a few days right? with money involved? to take any of these games serious is just stupid. despite the terseness of the showmatch I respect idra for not going all out and revealing everything that he has planned, same goes for tyler.
tl;dr: most of you guys are idiots and these games were just for fun. get over it.
On November 03 2010 10:06 Ftrunkz wrote: lmao at people saying idra is hiding strats... 95% of games he plays standard, and he played standard all the games i saw (xel'naga onwards) except the final blistering game where he did the most predictable zerg push ever, and nony blind hard countered.
We're not sayin that! Wat we're sayin is Nony showed his hand before MLG. Now those replays are going to be gold for Idra who'll just tear 'em apart and find ways to counter these bulids. Meanwhile Nony is goin to be clueless bout Idra's...
On November 03 2010 10:02 xBTx wrote:So........ who saw that coming?
*raises hand*
To count this as a huge upset is more of a sort of mass opinion that was never quite spot on.
IdrA might be superior (for the time being) against the newer generation of players that have no real professional experience and are still developing, but Tyler is just as strong, experienced and can get inside IdrA's head and exploit his play style.
On November 03 2010 10:07 Ezze wrote: That definitely didn't feel right. IdrA seemed like he could care less about the match. Nothing impressive by Tyler aside from game 1 force fields.
Blink stalker play on Xel'Naga? Reading the ridiculously predictable roach/ling all-in on BS? Great timing push and FFs on Shakuras? Nony had him read in every game...
Nony made me so happy with his playstyle!!! Time to practice DA forcfields. Although some people might view this as a boring series, it was great!! Both played really well.
To those unaware, Tyler has always been a major threat in Brood War competitions, known for finely tuned builds and precise execution. He also has a bit of a history with IdrA, and was another one of the select few foreigners who've experienced the rigors of Korean pro team training. Overall, his success should not come as a shock.
geez... idra really just didn't care... guess $400 doesn't mean that much to him... but i feel he should at least put up a better effort for the fans... he was just tossing games away...
On November 03 2010 10:10 EchOne wrote: To those unaware, Tyler has always been a major threat in Brood War competitions, known for finely tuned builds and precise execution. He also has a bit of a history with IdrA, and was another one of the select few foreigners who've experienced the rigors of Korean pro team training. Overall, his success should not come as a shock.
I always thought Tyler had one up on Idra in BW even though he was the underdog, but you have to admit Tyler hasn't shown great performances in SC2.
On November 03 2010 10:07 Ezze wrote: That definitely didn't feel right. IdrA seemed like he could care less about the match. Nothing impressive by Tyler aside from game 1 force fields.
Blink stalker play on Xel'Naga? Reading the ridiculously predictable roach/ling all-in on BS? Great timing push and FFs on Shakuras? Nony had him read in every game...
Idra had him read every game ( cept blistering) infact idra had scouted the 5 gates before they were half finished. If i had to guess, They split the prize pool and decided to fuck around.
Although I expected Idra to win, I can't say that I'm too surprised. Now that I think about it, we haven't really seen Idra beat any truly top tier Korean Protosses lately. You can mention his victory against Huk, but Huk himself admits that he practices mainly through laddering, and there are very few top-tier North American Zergs.
Idra's ZvT is definitely one of the strongest matchups that I've ever seen, but its pretty clear that he needs to practice the other matchups. With the recent patches, Idra shouldn't expect to face Terrans in 80% of his matchups lol.
That said, I'm really impressed with Tyler, and quite disappointed that he has expressed no interest in going to Korea . Please Tyler, all of your fans would love to see you in at least one GSL. You can talk your wife into coming with you for a vacation .
Edit: Oh, and LOL at the people saying that Idra doesn't care. From what I've seen, he's also been using the same strategies that he's always been using, so I doubt he's hiding anything. It's incredibly retarded that you people would think that Idra would throw away $400, and give more fodder to the people who think that Tyler is better than him. Idra is incredibly competitive and it's actually insulting to him if you think he would throw away games like this.
On November 03 2010 10:09 KulSsunG wrote: wow bunch of idiots in here. I liked nony from bw, but to say that he is the best or idra sucks is just a testament to how much ppl are dumb enough to jump on band wagons and make stupid comments. you do realize the biggest mlg lan is in a few days right? with money involved? to take any of these games serious is just stupid. despite the terseness of the showmatch I respect idra for not going all out and revealing everything that he has planned, same goes for tyler.
tl;dr: most of you guys are idiots and these games were just for fun. get over it.
Ya, fuck that $400. Who gives a shit about that? Utterly worthless. I know I play for fun and have no desires for making money. Clearly it is the same for Nony and Idra and they practice all day for fun.
I love how if IdrA had won, everyone would just be like "IdrA > all foreigners. Boring."
The fact that the underdog won in convincing fashion is enough to appreciate the series. Those saying IdrA doesn't care about the showmatch... why would he even bother accepting? You play to win the game.
I doubt IdrA would use his best builds for this showmatch RIGHT BEFORE MLG Dallas. Though, I'm happy Tyler won, and as always, will continue to cheer for him.
On November 03 2010 10:13 Slow Motion wrote: Man some of you are willing to say the dumbest things instead of just admitting your boy Idra got beat straight up.
There's nothing to admit: the score-line is clear so stop being obnoxious. He got pwned in this series. Maybe he needs to get himself a jacket to take off for MLG.
Wow, to all of those people who said IdrA doesn't care probably didnt' read his interview about what he thought about HuK's mothership during MLG DC. For him, gaming is his profession, and as such he is very professional about it (duh).
I don't smell any foul play. I just think IdrA misread Tyler's play (which is why he spent more effort in the last game to scout Tyler's play compared to the other games).
Tyler has always been good in these kind of situations, give him a day or two to prepare a build against a player and he will have a really good chance to win, doesn't matter who his opponent is.
TSL2 with the proxxy gate to counter Idras CC before fac is a good example. I do not know how much Tyler prepared for this series though.
On November 03 2010 10:13 Slow Motion wrote: Man some of you are willing to say the dumbest things instead of just admitting your boy Idra got beat straight up.
There's nothing to admit: the score-line is clear so stop being obnoxious. He got pwned in this series. Maybe he needs to get himself a jacket to take off for MLG.
Good of you to say that. Have you read the other comments in this thread?
Oh, and also, keep in mind that IdrA would have to place better than 120 people to make $400 at MLG Dallas this weekend. All he had to do here was win a bo7 against a guy he was arguably favored against.
On November 03 2010 10:13 Slow Motion wrote: Man some of you are willing to say the dumbest things instead of just admitting your boy Idra got beat straight up.
There's nothing to admit: the score-line is clear so stop being obnoxious. He got pwned in this series. Maybe he needs to get himself a jacket to take off for MLG.
Well i don't think it works unless it's an oGs tracksuit jacket.
Oh, I admit, Idra may very well have been hiding his strategies.
But I doubt he intentionally played bad, and he didn't really play bad as much as play standard - which is why he lost since Nony crafted his builds to counter standard.
Maybe Nony revealed his hand too early. But then again, maybe he didn't - after all, Dallas isn't just Idra vs. Nony. Both have a lot of other opponents to go through first if they're going to meet at all.
On November 03 2010 10:13 JoshSuth wrote: I love how if IdrA had won, everyone would just be like "IdrA > all foreigners. Boring."
The fact that the underdog won in convincing fashion is enough to appreciate the series. Those saying IdrA doesn't care about the showmatch... why would he even bother accepting? You play to win the game.
Sponsor thing, hello??
But you are right too. Horrible series imo. Nony played well tho.
Was suprised idra didnt switch it up to muta/ling or something, either way we can see at mlg dallas, im a big fan of both players and cant wait to see what else they can show if they face again.
As for people saying nony revealed his hand, if anything he showed hes capable of throwing out a decent variety of PvZ strategies with possibly more i beleive this unpredictability is been underestimated by the majority of people posting right now.
On November 03 2010 10:17 Azarkon wrote: Oh, I admit, Idra may very well have been hiding his strategies.
But I doubt he intentionally played bad, and he didn't really play bad as much as play standard - which is why he lost since Nony crafted his builds to counter standard.
Maybe Nony revealed his hand too early. But then again, maybe he didn't - after all, Dallas isn't just Idra vs. Nony. Both have a lot of other opponents to go through first if they're going to meet at all.
Well-crafted build orders are common, while a well-crafted post like this is like a white elephant on the LR threads.
I would have liked Idra to win that series but Nony really played well.
Nony's play with blink stalker was fantastic, and Idra clearly has trouble dealing with 3 gates expand into 5 gates, even when he scouts it. In the last game i think he was getting too scared of that build and went for a preemptive push thinking it would be that build again.
I don't think Idra played poorly, he just knows how strong 3 gates expand into 5 gates is, and knows he has to stop that before the 5 gates are up. Unfortunately for him Nony managed to hide his stargate just long enough in the last game.
Disappointed IdrA grudgingly stuck with roach play all 5 games. After 5 games of nothing but gateways no robo, i thought for certain there'd be hydra or infestor play somewhere in there.
On the other hand, Tyler totally took advantage of IdrA's standard play. exploited key weaknesses, great use of chronoboost to reinforce army much quicker than IdrA probably expected, and was the aggressor the whole time. GG
On November 03 2010 10:16 Whole wrote:I think IdrA is metametagaming to appear weak to his opponents.
Then you'd imagine he would be "metametagaming" against HuK in a match he's had nothing to lose in, than a $400 match against Tyler of all people (given the history between them).
Edit: and as for "hiding the strategies before MLG", I wouldn't hold my breath. In fact, I'd put the amount of money Tyler just won on IdrA using the same general strategies he used against HuK and tonight. =P
On November 03 2010 10:19 cuppatea wrote: Hashe is no Foxer...
It's not just the worse micro, but also what seems to be significantly worse macro. Foxer had a constant stream of marines in much higher numbers than this. However, it might of just felt that way since he lost much less per bling.
On November 03 2010 10:17 Azarkon wrote: Oh, I admit, Idra may very well have been hiding his strategies.
But I doubt he intentionally played bad, and he didn't really play bad as much as play standard - which is why he lost since Nony crafted his builds to counter standard.
Maybe Nony revealed his hand too early. But then again, maybe he didn't - after all, Dallas isn't just Idra vs. Nony. Both have a lot of other opponents to go through first if they're going to meet at all.
Well-crafted build orders are common, while a well-crafted post like this is like a white elephant on the LR threads.
Idra fanboy tears are delicious. If he wasn't going to try then he shouldn't of accepted. I don't think Gosucoaching forces people to play showmatches. Not only does he do himself a disservice but, also the people(gosucoaching) that decided to give him the opportunity. Better not invite Idra to any showmatches then because there will always be a bigger prize pool around the corner for him to save his "secret strats" for. We all see how those "secret strats" worked out in GSL2.
I'm happy for Teeler, $400 richer and a good showing.
On November 03 2010 10:13 JoshSuth wrote: I love how if IdrA had won, everyone would just be like "IdrA > all foreigners. Boring."
The fact that the underdog won in convincing fashion is enough to appreciate the series. Those saying IdrA doesn't care about the showmatch... why would he even bother accepting? You play to win the game.
Sponsor thing, hello??
But you are right too. Horrible series imo. Nony played well tho.
Hello??? Evil Geniuses are not the same thing as GosuCoaching. They are separate entities. IdrA didn't have to accept, and to suggest that he would not play at 100% to try to win would be silly.
On November 03 2010 10:23 MaleficOR wrote: Whether he did it intentionally or not, IdrA played standard every game and NonY just revealed all of his strats that IdrA will no doubt be studying.
Good luck to both at MLG Dallas.
Screw that, I bet Nony feels like he already won MLG
I'm skeptical of the allegations that IdrA was sand-bagging (not playing for the win / revealing MLG plans).
First of all, very specific preparation based on individual opponents' builds isn't as beneficial in the MLG format as it would be in a Starleague, since in MLG players must mow through a gauntlet of countless different opponents from different backgrounds. Even if IdrA retains a few "secret" ZvP builds, it'd be impractical to save them for Tyler, since he'll probably face a host of strong Protoss before or instead of Tyler. If he doesn't save them for Tyler, it's likely he'll reveal his all-out style against some other Protoss, and then Tyler can study those replays.
Second, both players' preparations are to some degree available to each other due to match history tracking. It's futile to hide what you've practiced because anyone can find out what you've practiced anyways.
To be fair, one could allege that either of the players invested more specific, player-sniping practice into this series than the other. Focused preparation for a single series obviously bears fruit in that series, but may not be useful in an event like MLG. I still don't think this was the case, though, since the play that both IdrA and Tyler fielded both looked valid and dangerous, regardless of the target player.
On November 03 2010 10:07 Ezze wrote: That definitely didn't feel right. IdrA seemed like he could care less about the match. Nothing impressive by Tyler aside from game 1 force fields.
Blink stalker play on Xel'Naga? Reading the ridiculously predictable roach/ling all-in on BS? Great timing push and FFs on Shakuras? Nony had him read in every game...
Are you saying that IdrA's play on BS was "ridiculously predictable" and that reading it was impressive by Tyler? In the same sentence? Rly?
On November 03 2010 10:23 MaleficOR wrote: Whether he did it intentionally or not, IdrA played standard every game and NonY just revealed all of his strats that IdrA will no doubt be studying.
Good luck to both at MLG Dallas.
I don't think anyone of us has been in Tyler's mind to be able to tell whether he "revealed all his strats". Personally, I think all of these were pretty much exclusively anti-Idra strats and that they wouldn't really be adequate against a different sort of player (or just a different player).
Besides, it's not really like we've seen some groundbreaking PvZ strats that were there to be "revealed". Most were standard well-known Protoss pushes tweaked to punish the way Idra (always) plays and they were executed on a sufficiently high level to beat him.
On November 03 2010 10:13 JoshSuth wrote: I love how if IdrA had won, everyone would just be like "IdrA > all foreigners. Boring."
The fact that the underdog won in convincing fashion is enough to appreciate the series. Those saying IdrA doesn't care about the showmatch... why would he even bother accepting? You play to win the game.
Sponsor thing, hello??
But you are right too. Horrible series imo. Nony played well tho.
Hello??? Evil Geniuses are not the same thing as GosuCoaching. They are separate entities. IdrA didn't have to accept, and to suggest that he would not play at 100% to try to win would be silly.
Who said anything about GC?
Idra could play a game to promote EG. That was the case i was kinda talking about. And hopefully you aren't saying that i said anything about the last sentence of your post.
On November 03 2010 10:07 Ezze wrote: That definitely didn't feel right. IdrA seemed like he could care less about the match. Nothing impressive by Tyler aside from game 1 force fields.
Blink stalker play on Xel'Naga? Reading the ridiculously predictable roach/ling all-in on BS? Great timing push and FFs on Shakuras? Nony had him read in every game...
Are you saying that IdrA's play on BS was "ridiculously predictable" and that reading it was impressive by Tyler? In the same sentence? Rly?
He actually doesnt state it was impressive, just that he did it, he says his timing push and ff's were impressive, aside from that everything he says is descriptive rather than evaluative
On November 03 2010 10:33 JoshSuth wrote: Ok, so IdrA accepts a showmatch to represent EG and doesn't play 100%? Also silly.
Are you putting words to my mouth?
did i say anything about him not playing 100%? jesus christ.
By suggesting that it was a sponsor driven event that idra didnt care about (the topic you were talking about at the time) you were implying that you supported the claim that he wasnt playing at 100% wether you meant to or not, he isnt putting words in your mouth
Geez, I have a ton of trouble vs Z, definitely grabbing those VoDs when I can. Does anyone know if reps are going to be released? Apologies if I just failed to read something obvious.
On November 03 2010 10:33 JoshSuth wrote: Ok, so IdrA accepts a showmatch to represent EG and doesn't play 100%? Also silly.
Are you putting words to my mouth?
did i say anything about him not playing 100%? jesus christ.
By suggesting that it was a sponsor driven event that idra didnt care about (the topic you were talking about at the time) you were implying that you supported the claim that he wasnt playing at 100% wether you meant to or not, he isnt putting words in your mouth
No. I didn't say anything about him not playing 100% there or didn't meant to, but guess its too hard to understand.
i just dont get why all these ****** websites do showmatches and wont even release the replays. Have some advertisement said by a referee at the begening of every replay and you willget more exposure than vods with shitty caster. MAYBE if incontrol casted the showmatch it would of been interesting but now..
On November 03 2010 10:33 JoshSuth wrote: Ok, so IdrA accepts a showmatch to represent EG and doesn't play 100%? Also silly.
Are you putting words to my mouth?
did i say anything about him not playing 100%? jesus christ.
By suggesting that it was a sponsor driven event that idra didnt care about (the topic you were talking about at the time) you were implying that you supported the claim that he wasnt playing at 100% wether you meant to or not, he isnt putting words in your mouth
No. I didn't say anything about him not playing 100% there or didn't meant to, but guess its too hard to understand.
Lets have a look at the arguments shall we?
the accusation: idra didnt care about the series, therefore he didnt play 100%
the response: idra wouldnt accept the invite if he didnt care about the series? therefore, he did care, therefore he played 100%
YOUR RESPONSE sponsor event, hello?? what this translates to in context of the discussion at hand.
idra may have not cared about the series but have been forced to play by his sponsors, under this circumstance he did not care, and thus did not try 100%
that was the discussion at hand, that was what you said and what what you said meant, he did not put words in your mouth.
On November 03 2010 10:49 desrow wrote: i just dont get why all these ****** websites do showmatches and wont even release the replays. Have some advertisement said by a referee at the begening of every replay and you willget more exposure than vods with shitty caster. MAYBE if incontrol casted the showmatch it would of been interesting but now..
Because they payed out $400 for one bo7?
Replays are bad for sponsors, they can never know how many people saw the match. It's different with things like MLG where 90+% of the games go uncasted. But when they were casted and good VOD"s are avaliable then why need replays?
I don't know if gosucoaching releases replays, but if they don't, it makes sense...
On November 03 2010 10:49 desrow wrote: i just dont get why all these ****** websites do showmatches and wont even release the replays. Have some advertisement said by a referee at the begening of every replay and you willget more exposure than vods with shitty caster. MAYBE if incontrol casted the showmatch it would of been interesting but now..
User was temp banned for this post.
Even though I banned you for posting like a douchebag I will still reply to you in case there are others who don't get it. There are a lot of reasons why not to release replays one of them is player protection; a replay will show you a lot more than a VOD will. The other is because sponsors need VOD numbers and not replay downloads.
On November 03 2010 10:13 Slow Motion wrote: Man some of you are willing to say the dumbest things instead of just admitting your boy Idra got beat straight up.
THIS a dozen times. Who gives a fuck about all this total rubbish about throwing games.
Idra to Nony on State of the Game when Nony was boasting about being the top BW foreigner; 'Yeah? Beat me on Star 2 then we'll talk.'
Idra's too proud to lose on purpose or not try and win, y'all talking shit.
On November 03 2010 10:53 TopOgi wrote: idra lost to mass stalker ... he kept sending few roaches and got overwhelmed or he doesnt wna show his play b4 dallas who knows (only he does)
On November 03 2010 10:33 JoshSuth wrote: Ok, so IdrA accepts a showmatch to represent EG and doesn't play 100%? Also silly.
Are you putting words to my mouth?
did i say anything about him not playing 100%? jesus christ.
By suggesting that it was a sponsor driven event that idra didnt care about (the topic you were talking about at the time) you were implying that you supported the claim that he wasnt playing at 100% wether you meant to or not, he isnt putting words in your mouth
No. I didn't say anything about him not playing 100% there or didn't meant to, but guess its too hard to understand.
the accusation: idra didnt care about the series, therefore he didnt play 100%
the response: idra wouldnt accept the invite if he didnt care about the series? therefore, he did care, therefore he played 100%
YOUR RESPONSE sponsor event, hello?? what this translates to in context of the discussion at hand.
idra may have not cared about the series but have been forced to play by his sponsors, under this circumstance he did not care, and thus did not try 100%
that was the discussion at hand, that was what you said and what what you said meant, he did not put words in your mouth.
Alright alright, but one more thing: you are kinda sloppy at backing up people when you even can't seem to read the responses properly, though i must say that "thing" doesn't really say that much but if i would've wanted to say something about event, i would've used the right word. Or then im completely wrong what you meant. Wouldn't be surprise right know.
The point was that he would play because EG 'wants' so as you said. But then again, still would've just saved the tactics and that stuff to MLG thus not playing 100% obviously.
But anyway, case closed. sorry and all that. peace~
E: you might understand me horribly wrong. English isn't my first language, tired and anyway not focusing on the discussion that much i should had.
The idea that he wouldn't care about winning this is absurd. The $/hr for this showmatch far exceeds that of MLG...or even GSL. Even if the prestige is nowhere near as significant, you would have to be an idiot to not consider $400 for an hour of work a substantial prize. You can say what you want about Idra, but he is not an idiot.
was a great series. had a lot of fun watching it. I know the majority was probably rooting for Tyler (I was) but we should give idra a break. He had to play at a weird time of day and had to deal with playing on a server half way around the world
On November 03 2010 11:12 metaldragon wrote: There is no one Idra would hate to lose to more than Nony in Sc2.
If you know ANYTHING of there history then you know how much this "showmatch/Grudge match" meant to both of them.
Its been
Nony = Skill
Idra = Hrd Work for years
Nony with 3 hours a day practice still years later > idra in a best of 7 IN A NEW GAME!
To even claim idra didn't take it serious means you don't know Idra or the history of these 2 guys!
Idra acknowledges Nony as one of the only good american players. He probably hates losing to people who he considers trash (basically anyone else) more
Server lag: People, there was none. IdrA is in U.S.
Not trying/hiding his builds:...are you kidding me? Not only was 400$/hr on the line, but so was idrA's pride, if you know about his and Nony's history.
On November 03 2010 10:49 desrow wrote: i just dont get why all these ****** websites do showmatches and wont even release the replays. Have some advertisement said by a referee at the begening of every replay and you willget more exposure than vods with shitty caster. MAYBE if incontrol casted the showmatch it would of been interesting but now..
User was temp banned for this post.
Even though I banned you for posting like a douchebag I will still reply to you in case there are others who don't get it. There are a lot of reasons why not to release replays one of them is player protection; a replay will show you a lot more than a VOD will. The other is because sponsors need VOD numbers and not replay downloads.
When I hear this, I become very glad Blizzard is controlling the ladder the way they are.
I'm glad Blizzard lets us look at player's build orders in a player's match history. I'm glad they made Blizzcon a ladder tournament, so that professionals would be encouraged to play the ladder. In fact, I hope they further incentivize ladder matches. And I can't wait for Blizzard to start releasing GSL replays. Otherwise, spectators will get screwed while the pros practice privately in custom games.
As for VOD numbers, why not release the replays a week after the games? How many people would skip watching the vods so they could watch the replays later? Certainly not enough to halt the advancement of esports. And I doubt a VOD gets many views after a week. Also, as for replays giving more information than vods, considering you can crossreference a player's BO in his match history with the VOD, how much tactical advantage is really gained.
Replays have always been my favorite part of Starcraft, and this replay hording is deeply frustrating for me. I know the shoutcasters work very hard. I respect them for that, and for their love of the game. But I hate your observing. It's probably not your fault. If you don't have the clicker, you probably won't like the other person's channel choice. But that understanding doesn't make me hate your observing one iota less.
For once, though, Blizzard is on my side. They understand that the masses make them the money. Pros might sustain the life of a game, but they don't need that until they release all their expansions. They'll make sure the game becomes more spectator-centric, and that makes me happy.
On November 03 2010 11:12 metaldragon wrote: There is no one Idra would hate to lose to more than Nony in Sc2.
If you know ANYTHING of there history then you know how much this "showmatch/Grudge match" meant to both of them.
Its been
Nony = Skill
Idra = Hrd Work for years
Nony with 3 hours a day practice still years later > idra in a best of 7 IN A NEW GAME!
To even claim idra didn't take it serious means you don't know Idra or the history of these 2 guys!
Nony lost to Idra in the first TSL2 set, and Nony lost to Idra in their beta match up (TLI I think.)
The point here being that it's not like Nony always rapes Idra, they have quite a rivalry, and they're both insanely skilled, it's funny to me that people like to say that Idra = no talent + tons of practice, since they obviously don't know how Idra actually got to Korea in the first place.
On November 03 2010 10:49 desrow wrote: i just dont get why all these ****** websites do showmatches and wont even release the replays. Have some advertisement said by a referee at the begening of every replay and you willget more exposure than vods with shitty caster. MAYBE if incontrol casted the showmatch it would of been interesting but now..
User was temp banned for this post.
Even though I banned you for posting like a douchebag I will still reply to you in case there are others who don't get it. There are a lot of reasons why not to release replays one of them is player protection; a replay will show you a lot more than a VOD will. The other is because sponsors need VOD numbers and not replay downloads.
When I hear this, I become very glad Blizzard is controlling the ladder the way they are.
I'm glad Blizzard lets us look at player's build orders in a player's match history. I'm glad they made Blizzcon a ladder tournament, so that professionals would be encouraged to play the ladder. In fact, I hope they further incentivize ladder matches. And I can't wait for Blizzard to start releasing GSL replays. Otherwise, spectators will get screwed while the pros practice privately in custom games.
As for VOD numbers, why not release the replays a week after the games? How many people would skip watching the vods so they could watch the replays later? Certainly not enough to halt the advancement of esports. And I doubt a VOD gets many views after a week. Also, as for replays giving more information than vods, considering you can crossreference a player's BO in his match history with the VOD, how much tactical advantage is really gained.
Replays have always been my favorite part of Starcraft, and this replay hording is deeply frustrating for me. I know the shoutcasters work very hard. I respect them for that, and for their love of the game. But I hate your observing. It's probably not your fault. If you don't have the clicker, you probably won't like the other person's channel choice. But that understanding doesn't make me hate your observing one iota less.
For once, though, Blizzard is on my side. They understand that the masses make them the money. Pros might sustain the life of a game, but they don't need that until they release all their expansions. They'll make sure the game becomes more spectator-centric, and that makes me happy.
Except that going with your logic, there won't be anything worth spectating, and the system will be so ingrained that a month after the expansions are released the scene would be dead. Anyone who started early with BW will tell you that the days without replays were much more interesting! Also quit sitting on a highhorse regarding your personal replay watching, you don't control the camera in any other sports either, find an observer/caster you like and deal with it. It's precisely Blizzard's attitude that is going to ruin the longevity of SC2 compared to BW.
On November 03 2010 11:21 willeesmalls wrote: I should say that IdrA also lost to some guy named dDoro. the replay's posted at sc2rep.
Ladder match, probably? Doesn't matter, pros will lose to shit players (not that I know if dDoro is any good) in ladder matches because they use ladder to try out new builds and stuff.
Anyways, people, suck it up. Tyler played consistently better in this series, being able to overwhelm Idra and win straight up. Even if you love Idra, don't make up excuses and take away from the winner. If you think this was extremely surprising, that's a little weird. Tyler might not yet have fared as well in SC2 as in BW but he has shown a lot of good play so this outcome did not surprise me at all.
Lol I just get the feeling Nony practiced harder for this than MLG just so he could beat Nony like he did in TSL and backing up his smack on SOTG. gj Tyler!
On November 03 2010 10:49 desrow wrote: i just dont get why all these ****** websites do showmatches and wont even release the replays. Have some advertisement said by a referee at the begening of every replay and you willget more exposure than vods with shitty caster. MAYBE if incontrol casted the showmatch it would of been interesting but now..
User was temp banned for this post.
Even though I banned you for posting like a douchebag I will still reply to you in case there are others who don't get it. There are a lot of reasons why not to release replays one of them is player protection; a replay will show you a lot more than a VOD will. The other is because sponsors need VOD numbers and not replay downloads.
When I hear this, I become very glad Blizzard is controlling the ladder the way they are.
I'm glad Blizzard lets us look at player's build orders in a player's match history. I'm glad they made Blizzcon a ladder tournament, so that professionals would be encouraged to play the ladder. In fact, I hope they further incentivize ladder matches. And I can't wait for Blizzard to start releasing GSL replays. Otherwise, spectators will get screwed while the pros practice privately in custom games.
As for VOD numbers, why not release the replays a week after the games? How many people would skip watching the vods so they could watch the replays later? Certainly not enough to halt the advancement of esports. And I doubt a VOD gets many views after a week. Also, as for replays giving more information than vods, considering you can crossreference a player's BO in his match history with the VOD, how much tactical advantage is really gained.
Replays have always been my favorite part of Starcraft, and this replay hording is deeply frustrating for me. I know the shoutcasters work very hard. I respect them for that, and for their love of the game. But I hate your observing. It's probably not your fault. If you don't have the clicker, you probably won't like the other person's channel choice. But that understanding doesn't make me hate your observing one iota less.
For once, though, Blizzard is on my side. They understand that the masses make them the money. Pros might sustain the life of a game, but they don't need that until they release all their expansions. They'll make sure the game becomes more spectator-centric, and that makes me happy.
Except that going with your logic, there won't be anything worth spectating, and the system will be so ingrained that a month after the expansions are released the scene would be dead. Anyone who started early with BW will tell you that the days without replays were much more interesting! Also quit sitting on a highhorse regarding your personal replay watching, you don't control the camera in any other sports either, find an observer/caster you like and deal with it. It's precisely Blizzard's attitude that is going to ruin the longevity of SC2 compared to BW.
I started early in BW. Some pros will tell you they liked the scene more before replays. I'm not arguing that. But I think replays are an awesome feature, and Blizzard thought the majority of fans felt that way as well.
Regarding camera control in other sports, in other sports nearly all the action can be captured on one screen. What's more, they have much, much better broadcast teams and productions. That's not an insult to esport commentators, but it's just the way it is, and it's the reason why sports commentating is more palatable. Finally, esports is not football. It comes with different expectations. In football, only insiders get to watch game from all the cool camera angles. But football is not starcraft.
Maybe if USA SC broadcasts were as good as Korean ones, I could stand living without replays. But it's not. And my only consolation is that what Blizzard has done so far suggests to me that Blizzard understands my POV.
On November 03 2010 10:49 desrow wrote: i just dont get why all these ****** websites do showmatches and wont even release the replays. Have some advertisement said by a referee at the begening of every replay and you willget more exposure than vods with shitty caster. MAYBE if incontrol casted the showmatch it would of been interesting but now..
User was temp banned for this post.
Even though I banned you for posting like a douchebag I will still reply to you in case there are others who don't get it. There are a lot of reasons why not to release replays one of them is player protection; a replay will show you a lot more than a VOD will. The other is because sponsors need VOD numbers and not replay downloads.
When I hear this, I become very glad Blizzard is controlling the ladder the way they are.
I'm glad Blizzard lets us look at player's build orders in a player's match history. I'm glad they made Blizzcon a ladder tournament, so that professionals would be encouraged to play the ladder. In fact, I hope they further incentivize ladder matches. And I can't wait for Blizzard to start releasing GSL replays. Otherwise, spectators will get screwed while the pros practice privately in custom games.
As for VOD numbers, why not release the replays a week after the games? How many people would skip watching the vods so they could watch the replays later? Certainly not enough to halt the advancement of esports. And I doubt a VOD gets many views after a week. Also, as for replays giving more information than vods, considering you can crossreference a player's BO in his match history with the VOD, how much tactical advantage is really gained.
Replays have always been my favorite part of Starcraft, and this replay hording is deeply frustrating for me. I know the shoutcasters work very hard. I respect them for that, and for their love of the game. But I hate your observing. It's probably not your fault. If you don't have the clicker, you probably won't like the other person's channel choice. But that understanding doesn't make me hate your observing one iota less.
For once, though, Blizzard is on my side. They understand that the masses make them the money. Pros might sustain the life of a game, but they don't need that until they release all their expansions. They'll make sure the game becomes more spectator-centric, and that makes me happy.
Except that going with your logic, there won't be anything worth spectating, and the system will be so ingrained that a month after the expansions are released the scene would be dead. Anyone who started early with BW will tell you that the days without replays were much more interesting! Also quit sitting on a highhorse regarding your personal replay watching, you don't control the camera in any other sports either, find an observer/caster you like and deal with it. It's precisely Blizzard's attitude that is going to ruin the longevity of SC2 compared to BW.
I started early in BW. Some pros will tell you they liked the scene more before replays. I'm not arguing that. But I think replays are an awesome feature, and Blizzard thought the majority of fans felt that way as well.
Regarding camera control in other sports, in other sports nearly all the action can be captured on one screen. What's more, they have much, much better broadcast teams and productions. That's not an insult to esport commentators, but it's just the way it is, and it's the reason why sports commentating is more palatable. Finally, esports is not football. It comes with different expectations. In football, only insiders get to watch game from all the cool camera angles. But football is not starcraft.
Maybe if USA SC broadcasts were as good as Korean ones, I could stand living without replays. But it's not. And my only consolation is that what Blizzard has done so far suggests to me that Blizzard understands my POV.
i think this guy is either joking or 100% arrogant
ok I'm watching the games. game 1 and 2 were pretty awkward. Game 3 was blink stalkers, and I'm not sure how it works, but game 4 seemed standard, and I think that Roach/Hydra is the correct response to 5 gate no tech pushes on 2 bases.
On November 03 2010 10:49 desrow wrote: i just dont get why all these ****** websites do showmatches and wont even release the replays. Have some advertisement said by a referee at the begening of every replay and you willget more exposure than vods with shitty caster. MAYBE if incontrol casted the showmatch it would of been interesting but now..
User was temp banned for this post.
Even though I banned you for posting like a douchebag I will still reply to you in case there are others who don't get it. There are a lot of reasons why not to release replays one of them is player protection; a replay will show you a lot more than a VOD will. The other is because sponsors need VOD numbers and not replay downloads.
When I hear this, I become very glad Blizzard is controlling the ladder the way they are.
I'm glad Blizzard lets us look at player's build orders in a player's match history. I'm glad they made Blizzcon a ladder tournament, so that professionals would be encouraged to play the ladder. In fact, I hope they further incentivize ladder matches. And I can't wait for Blizzard to start releasing GSL replays. Otherwise, spectators will get screwed while the pros practice privately in custom games.
As for VOD numbers, why not release the replays a week after the games? How many people would skip watching the vods so they could watch the replays later? Certainly not enough to halt the advancement of esports. And I doubt a VOD gets many views after a week. Also, as for replays giving more information than vods, considering you can crossreference a player's BO in his match history with the VOD, how much tactical advantage is really gained.
Replays have always been my favorite part of Starcraft, and this replay hording is deeply frustrating for me. I know the shoutcasters work very hard. I respect them for that, and for their love of the game. But I hate your observing. It's probably not your fault. If you don't have the clicker, you probably won't like the other person's channel choice. But that understanding doesn't make me hate your observing one iota less.
For once, though, Blizzard is on my side. They understand that the masses make them the money. Pros might sustain the life of a game, but they don't need that until they release all their expansions. They'll make sure the game becomes more spectator-centric, and that makes me happy.
Except that going with your logic, there won't be anything worth spectating, and the system will be so ingrained that a month after the expansions are released the scene would be dead. Anyone who started early with BW will tell you that the days without replays were much more interesting! Also quit sitting on a highhorse regarding your personal replay watching, you don't control the camera in any other sports either, find an observer/caster you like and deal with it. It's precisely Blizzard's attitude that is going to ruin the longevity of SC2 compared to BW.
I started early in BW. Some pros will tell you they liked the scene more before replays. I'm not arguing that. But I think replays are an awesome feature, and Blizzard thought the majority of fans felt that way as well.
Regarding camera control in other sports, in other sports nearly all the action can be captured on one screen. What's more, they have much, much better broadcast teams and productions. That's not an insult to esport commentators, but it's just the way it is, and it's the reason why sports commentating is more palatable. Finally, esports is not football. It comes with different expectations. In football, only insiders get to watch game from all the cool camera angles. But football is not starcraft.
Maybe if USA SC broadcasts were as good as Korean ones, I could stand living without replays. But it's not. And my only consolation is that what Blizzard has done so far suggests to me that Blizzard understands my POV.
E-Sports are sports, SC2 is not football because people like you relegate it to that status. It shouldn't come with different expectations. So instead of pressuring Blizzard into giving more incentives for better Casters/Production teams you support them in denying the longevity of creative game play. English broadcasts could easily be as good if there were paid expert commentators(here is where Bliz could invest) , but instead we're just whining at the people who try their best and beg for the short term relief of replays, while professionals lose incentive to come up with new builds.
Edit: Everyone who keeps commenting that Idra was hiding his builds for MLG is seriously mistaking the value of that tournament to the 400$ that this match could've brought him, with a lot less variables offered. Not to mention the personal victory that Idra could've achieved.
Nony is so multifaceted. I love that he can play one of about 10 builds in any given game. Makes for a lot of variety. Normally its hard to be very good at that level this early in a games life by being so diverse, but he seems to be quite good at it right now. His profile doesn't show much practice at all.. I know about all the rumours about him not practicing all that much, but for some reason I just have a hard time believing it given how crisp his build executions are.
Production value speaking, everything we have thus far in E-Sports is very amateur. Cable networks like OGN and MBC run a pretty tight ship, but even then there are technical difficulties because of all the hardware involved, i.e. Flash versus Jaedong power outage final.
In replays, sure you can view everything you want at your own discretion. This is a huge problem with inexperienced observers. I doubt -_- was joking as there is a lot of truth in what he said. When replays were first introduced, a lot of the top players cringed at the thought of it and now many have grown to accept it as a valid tool for improving, meh.
On November 02 2010 13:08 Newbistic wrote: Who are going to be casting these matches?
Looks like Raelcun and Makh, just waiting on Makh to confirm.
Does anyone else kind of see this as fitting for the same day Boxer vs. Nada is going down? 2 Korean BW legends and 2 BW Foreign legends, but all in SCII !
Also mandatory poll for a match like this:
Poll: Who will end up winning from this TSL 2 rematch?
IdrA - : 4-1 (74)
25%
IdrA - : 4-0 (49)
17%
IdrA - : 4-2 (47)
16%
Liquid`Tyler - 4-1 (33)
11%
Liquid`Tyler - 4-3 (33)
11%
Liquid`Tyler- 4-0 (29)
10%
Liquid`Tyler - 4-2 (20)
7%
IdrA - : 4-3 (11)
4%
296 total votes
Your vote: Who will end up winning from this TSL 2 rematch?
So I didn't watch, but basically Idra failed to scout the entire series and got punished for it? next you're going to tell me that HDStarcraft 6pools him twice and sends him to losers, he's got to do better than that.
On November 03 2010 10:49 desrow wrote: i just dont get why all these ****** websites do showmatches and wont even release the replays. Have some advertisement said by a referee at the begening of every replay and you willget more exposure than vods with shitty caster. MAYBE if incontrol casted the showmatch it would of been interesting but now..
User was temp banned for this post.
Even though I banned you for posting like a douchebag I will still reply to you in case there are others who don't get it. There are a lot of reasons why not to release replays one of them is player protection; a replay will show you a lot more than a VOD will. The other is because sponsors need VOD numbers and not replay downloads.
This was very true in BW, but in SC2 most casters leave the production observer tool open almost all game long, which makes it trivially easy to copy every little detail off a build order--with or without the replay. Having an in-game clock above the minimap makes it so you can even sync them up game-time without too much effort.
Moreover, you can also see a player's hotkeys along the bottom of the screen whenever a caster has their forces selected, so a VOD won't even hide that. And if the caster happened to not have the production tab open for some odd reason, you can still check their match history for the exact BO and timings.
Wanting your VODs to get hits for sponsors, though, is still a perfectly legitimate reason to hold on to the replays.
Just finished watching the series. Great play by Idra. I really hope Nony can continue with the success and put on an impressive performance at MLG. He showed he has the skills to take the whole tournament.
sort of feel like idra gg'd too early in that last game.. he could have perhaps sacrificed his army while doing as much damge as possible to nony's econ, cranked queens out of one hatch and upgraded to lair in the other?? he didn't put up a fight in that last game which is disappointing...
On November 03 2010 12:49 Mastermind wrote: Just finished watching the series. Great play by Idra. I really hope Nony can continue with the success and put on an impressive performance at MLG. He showed he has the skills to take the whole tournament.
IdrA didn't play great at all. We all know he is capable of so much more. Nony is my favorite and I'm glad he won... but I don't feel like it was much of an accomplishment. It looked as though Idra handicapped himself by playing without a mouse or something.
On November 03 2010 14:28 Fontelroy wrote: I was right in the middle of game 2 when the vod, and all of fileplay.net, seemed to crash! o fiddlesticks.....
Looks like the traffic from people watching these VOD"s crashed the server, hopefully will be back up soon!
On November 03 2010 14:28 Fontelroy wrote: I was right in the middle of game 2 when the vod, and all of fileplay.net, seemed to crash! o fiddlesticks.....
Looks like the traffic from people watching these VOD"s crashed the server, hopefully will be back up soon!
Yup, I'm getting 502 bad gateway. And I was just getting started!
On November 03 2010 14:28 Fontelroy wrote: I was right in the middle of game 2 when the vod, and all of fileplay.net, seemed to crash! o fiddlesticks.....
Looks like the traffic from people watching these VOD"s crashed the server, hopefully will be back up soon!
Yup, I'm getting 502 bad gateway. And I was just getting started!
I don't think Idra really cared about this showmatch it was a boring series and Idra didn't play at all near his level...it was really just kinda sad to watch but at least Tyler is playing well
As someone earlier stated maybe not showing to many strategies saving them for MLG
On November 03 2010 14:46 lim1017 wrote: if anything i would think he cared more about this showmatch then he would any other..
And your reason behind this statement is?
Game 1 a really... really quick GG
Game 5 Was that even Idra playing?
IdrA didn't play too well, but he's a competitor he just had a series of bad games to say that he threw the games, or wasn't trying is ridiculous.
Why aren't people talking about what he could have done different instead of speculating on him throwing games, wtf is happening to TL.
I was not saying he was throwing the games 400$ was on the line thats nothing to wink at.
However i am just stating after watching every match in the GSL of Idra this was not the Idra that competed in the GSL and absolutely destroyed HuK his gg's were very quick and his strats were very 1 dimensional that is all - also yes because a few people stated that idra threw a series that means that TL is going down the drain *sarcasm
This Idra looked very similar that was quite lost against Zenio in ZvZ imo. It's a similar situation. There's tons of players that play the way Nony plays (3 gate expo into 5 gate sick gateway unit pressure with sentries,) but I bet the execution of players who've done that against Idra just wasn't on par to make him worry about it.
Here comes Nony, who's style always seems to be based on very precise and calculated execution. All of a sudden IdrA may be playing a game that is only slightly below his normal level of execution, but he's facing a strategy against which he's never really been forced to prepare against, because he just rolled over it with his standard play, and it's executed by Tyler. Tyler may have not practiced as much as IdrA in general, but he practiced this particular variation (talking about game 1 and game 5 builds here,) and he can do it perfectly.
GG, Nony wins.
In comparison, when HuK played against IdrA he didn't feel as comfortable (the patch was an issue obviously,) he kept advancing in situations where he should have known ahead of time IdrA would have a stronger army than him, and then he made a mistake by leaving those units behind, and he lost in a very 1 sided manner.
Great post KiaRip I agree with you. It must feel amazing for Tyler to read through this thread, knowing he dominated so hard that everyone thinks the match was fixed.
NONY is likely the LAST person Idra would want to lose to in a best of 7.
If you know ANYTHING about the rivalry between these 2 players from BW till now you would understand.
Every time Idra looks unbeatable on for foreign scene there is once man that shows hes mortal and can be stopped.
That man... is NONY.
On a recent state of the game idra boasted "well beat me in Sc2 and then we'll talk" when nony talked about being the best BW foriener after knocking Idra out of the final TSL.
Your
1. a misinformed fanboy
2. have no respect for the history of these 2 players
if you even THINK idra didn't go into this with the intention of Crushing Nony!
The absolute worst thing about the match fixing scandal is that everytime there is an unexpected result now a ton of people just post inane shit about how the match was fixed.
On November 03 2010 15:29 Kiarip wrote: if you're a protoss player look at game 1 and 5
Yeah, I just tried the 3 gate->5gate mass sentry build and it worked really, really well. I'm so pleased with that, considering how much trouble I have been having against roach builds.
seriously. He trains so hard and Tyler who isn't really practicing hard stomps him anyway o.O
That's SC2 for you.
Nony just consistently beats Idra in mind games/get's lucky/whatever you want to call it. And with TSL it's not like Nony would have had any chance in hell vs Idra, or anyone else, if he hadn't player protoss. So it's not like only SC2 has this, Protoss race in SC BW also had this. Mechanics play a minor role and it's all about somehow making the right decision. It's not that Idra can do anything about it no matter what his skill is once the game takes a path in which he autoloses.
i only had time to watch the first game so far but those force fields were devastating, i'm glad tyler won even though i am a big fan of IdrA. So excited for dallas, its gonna be awesome.
On November 03 2010 15:29 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Next person to mention anything about any of these points is going to get a ban.
Bringing up not caring as a reason for an official loss
Making assumptions on someones practice regimen and using it to trash another player
Speculation on throwing games
I really hope some of you continue to post this crap, I need some anger released after reading this thread.
No sense gettin worked up over internet shenanigans Anywho, I thought the Idra Tyler series was pretty awesome to see, and it makes me that much more excited for MLG this weekend
I never expected a Bo7 to end so quickly -_- kind of depressing. Regardless there was some sick play on both sides that kept things for the most part interesting.
Sigh. Idras performance has been underwhelming lately( well mlg dc was good but the matches were too one sided, and not entertaining).. The poll had idra leading to go the furthest in gsl but now we see that there are many gaps in his play. He may be he strongest foreigner but I also feel that he is over rated along with TLO. They may be better than everyone else that appears at mlg but they are obviously a level or so below the gsl competitors. Idra gets owned by zenio but zenio gets owned by nestea. People say the gsl is lackluster but if the people who win mlg and such can not hang with the gsl competitors (loner nexgenius and more). It can only mean how big the skill gap might be.
It was really interesting to have this on the same day as BoxeR v NaDa.
For me, the Korean game was so much better, objectively, in terms of skill and technical play, but the North American game was much more a battle of the mind.
Funny how cocksure IdrA was about getting to the final of GSL2 as if he was already there but follows it up by immediately getting knocked out of GSL2 in the next round and then getting thrashed in a match vs a foreigner. If IdrA was humble but ambitious like TLO he would have so many fans.
Wow...I don't understand all this talk of IdrA throwing the games. Nony played fantastically. Game 3 stalker agression? He knows IdrA doesn't make lings and the 2 stalkers immediately caused IdrA to make 8 lings...not what he wanted.
Amazing timing push...right as lair started and IdrA had no units, the crawlers. And even more impressive was the blink micro almost losing no stalkers during the entire battle.
On November 03 2010 17:24 adeezy wrote: Sigh. Idras performance has been underwhelming lately( well mlg dc was good but the matches were too one sided, and not entertaining).. The poll had idra leading to go the furthest in gsl but now we see that there are many gaps in his play. He may be he strongest foreigner but I also feel that he is over rated along with TLO. They may be better than everyone else that appears at mlg but they are obviously a level or so below the gsl competitors. Idra gets owned by zenio but zenio gets owned by nestea. People say the gsl is lackluster but if the people who win mlg and such can not hang with the gsl competitors (loner nexgenius and more). It can only mean how big the skill gap might be.
OT:Instead of calling players overrated you should watch the matches they played properly instead of only watching wether they won or lost.
LOL scanning through this thread after watching the VODs is really disgusting - wtf is this, if IdrA kicks some behinds people call him the only "westener" with true skill, if IdrA loses people call him down for playing not seriously. I get that you all love IdrA and want him to roflstomp everybody in the ground, but how about showing some respect to both of the players?
How about respecting that Nony played great today, not making any mistakes in straight up games, only losing the one with the failed cannon-cheese? How about giving IdrA a break, he plays absurdly good 99% of the time, maybe he just had a bad day or something?
Can't believe this, Teamliquid is better than this, cmon now.
Ok so perhaps IdrA is overrated by "some" people. But anyone who was on these forums before SC2 knows IdrA's limitations. He's still an awesome player though.
Really what's happening is Tyler is totally underrated. He will inevitably be an awesome player, possible even better than IdrA, it's just a matter of time.
This was a boring series. It is basicly both doing the same build 4 times, with small deviation (blink), and 1 time nony tries a cannon contain and fails. I tried that build that idra does too, and it's a great build but it struggles vs warpgate pushes. That is exactly what happened.
Someone really has to come up with a new solid build order. Hydras are great, but become cannon folder later in the game. Roaches, as you saw, are okish vs this, but the timing is so that there won't be enough. Mass zerglings also doen't work because of the sentrys. Spire makes you too vulnerable to everything.
I was hoping Idra could show me, but he was destroyed too. Ah well, with time people will come up with ideas to do it
On November 03 2010 18:36 Klive5ive wrote: Ok so perhaps IdrA is overrated by "some" people. But anyone who was on these forums before SC2 knows IdrA's limitations. He's still an awesome player though.
Really what's happening is Tyler is totally underrated. He will inevitably be an awesome player, possible even better than IdrA, it's just a matter of time.
I agree. Idra just doesn't seem to get better, same in Broodwar after he went to Korea.
On November 03 2010 18:36 Klive5ive wrote: Ok so perhaps IdrA is overrated by "some" people. But anyone who was on these forums before SC2 knows IdrA's limitations. He's still an awesome player though.
Really what's happening is Tyler is totally underrated. He will inevitably be an awesome player, possible even better than IdrA, it's just a matter of time.
At least in game 4, idra needed burrow and mass roach to hold off a huge warpgate push like that. I think a bit too confident against 5 warpgates to put down a spire, he probably assumed that since 8 warpgate is "allin" 5 was a transition, its just nony saving the 450 minerals on chrono boost and good macro it seems.
Great play by both players, Nony imo took advantage of Idra's safe macro style play (definitely not saying its a bad thing), and in some cases seemingly lucky (void rays weren't scouted even though I was yelling at that ovie to move a little to the right) came out on top! Thanks to Gosu coaching for that and hope there are more to come.
As I always say, idra is so overrated. Look at this poor display of ZvP. Nony simply dismantled idra's predictable macro play and poor scouting/deciphering.
One of the casters mentioned that Idra thinks forcefields are imbalanced because there is nothing to deal with them. How about you upgrade burrow and tunneling ? What kind of zerg player doesn't get that these days? Is it cheaper to let a few to half of your roaches just get trapped while you try and outmicro the forcefields and then become forced to engage? Do you think you will have too few units teching that stuff too fast?
2 important factors: If the guy is 4 gate all in or whatever, he will not have obs. Regeneration is super effective as well as the dodging. If the guy is 2-3 gate robo with ob, then he will have less stalkers and gate units in the first place.
Tunnelling and Burrow are a MUST.
Idra is only shown us he's above average at ZvT. In every other matchup versus upper tier players he just gets rolled.
On November 03 2010 19:29 CharlieMurphy wrote: As I always say, idra is so overrated. Look at this poor display of ZvP. Nony simply dismantled idra's predictable macro play and poor scouting/deciphering.
One of the casters mentioned that Idra thinks forcefields are imbalanced because there is nothing to deal with them. How about you upgrade burrow and tunneling ? What kind of zerg player doesn't get that these days? Is it cheaper to let a few to half of your roaches just get trapped while you try and outmicro the forcefields and then become forced to engage? Do you think you will have too few units teching that stuff too fast?
2 important factors: If the guy is 4 gate all in or whatever, he will not have obs. Regeneration is super effective as well as the dodging. If the guy is 2-3 gate robo with ob, then he will have less stalkers and gate units in the first place.
Tunnelling and Burrow are a MUST.
Idra is only shown us he's above average at ZvT. In every other matchup versus upper tier players he just gets rolled.
These games were so one sided and lame to watch.
if the most accomplished foreigner is overrated then who isn't sigh... such harsh judgment from 1 showmatch lol... even the fruitdealer lost like a newb cuz he didn't make units in time... people are so mean
On November 03 2010 19:29 CharlieMurphy wrote: As I always say, idra is so overrated. Look at this poor display of ZvP. Nony simply dismantled idra's predictable macro play and poor scouting/deciphering.
One of the casters mentioned that Idra thinks forcefields are imbalanced because there is nothing to deal with them. How about you upgrade burrow and tunneling ? What kind of zerg player doesn't get that these days? Is it cheaper to let a few to half of your roaches just get trapped while you try and outmicro the forcefields and then become forced to engage? Do you think you will have too few units teching that stuff too fast?
2 important factors: If the guy is 4 gate all in or whatever, he will not have obs. Regeneration is super effective as well as the dodging. If the guy is 2-3 gate robo with ob, then he will have less stalkers and gate units in the first place.
Tunnelling and Burrow are a MUST.
Idra is only shown us he's above average at ZvT. In every other matchup versus upper tier players he just gets rolled.
These games were so one sided and lame to watch.
Have you seen IdrA's U.S ladder results? He has like 60 losses and 160 or so wins. I highly doubt he is Overrated. Quite frankly I think that you just don't like him or how he BMs players so you call him overrated. Ro34 in GSL1 16 in GSL2 winner of KoTB MLG 1st place. I don't know man but I wouldn't call that overrated, there are times when players have bad days. Also he is playing with a huge amount of lag I bet he lives in korea playing games on the other side of the earth.
On November 03 2010 19:29 CharlieMurphy wrote: As I always say, idra is so overrated. Look at this poor display of ZvP. Nony simply dismantled idra's predictable macro play and poor scouting/deciphering.
One of the casters mentioned that Idra thinks forcefields are imbalanced because there is nothing to deal with them. How about you upgrade burrow and tunneling ? What kind of zerg player doesn't get that these days? Is it cheaper to let a few to half of your roaches just get trapped while you try and outmicro the forcefields and then become forced to engage? Do you think you will have too few units teching that stuff too fast?
2 important factors: If the guy is 4 gate all in or whatever, he will not have obs. Regeneration is super effective as well as the dodging. If the guy is 2-3 gate robo with ob, then he will have less stalkers and gate units in the first place.
Tunnelling and Burrow are a MUST.
Idra is only shown us he's above average at ZvT. In every other matchup versus upper tier players he just gets rolled.
These games were so one sided and lame to watch.
Have you seen IdrA's U.S ladder results? He has like 60 losses and 160 or so wins. I highly doubt he is Overrated. Quite frankly I think that you just don't like him or how he BMs players so you call him overrated. Ro34 in GSL1 16 in GSL2 winner of KoTB MLG 1st place. I don't know man but I wouldn't call that overrated, there are times when players have bad days. Also he is playing with a huge amount of lag I bet he lives in korea playing games on the other side of the earth.
Idra was playing in America, as he's here now for MLG Dallas. The sheer number of Idra fans blaming nonexistant lag for his piss poor performance is quite hilarious, though.
Anyway... are you seriously trying to use ladder results to prove that someone is or isn't overrated? That's the most laughable concept I've entertained in a while, and I frequent forums with Idra fans.
Idra is overrated; just look at the polls for this match or the TL poll on the right sidebar showing that the majority of users on this forum believe him to be a better player than he truly is. Statistically and by tournament performance, Idra may be the King of Foreigners, but in the wider scope of the Starcraft scene, it means absolutely nothing. Idra is a mechanical player without any natural talent or gamesense who thrives in lesser environments by the practice he puts in. To hype him to any level beyond that is a complete mischaracterization caused by undue fanboyism.
On November 03 2010 18:36 Klive5ive wrote: Ok so perhaps IdrA is overrated by "some" people. But anyone who was on these forums before SC2 knows IdrA's limitations. He's still an awesome player though.
Really what's happening is Tyler is totally underrated. He will inevitably be an awesome player, possible even better than IdrA, it's just a matter of time.
I agree. Idra just doesn't seem to get better, same in Broodwar after he went to Korea.
I remember reading one of his interviews and he mentioned that the training hours at CJ were cumbersome and overbearing, it was part of the reason that he left CJ. Now he trains by himself on the ladder on his own time. The ladder obviously doesn't present pros/proplayers with the same level of competition or training than a select group or team can provide, also with lax training hours who knows how much he really puts in?
He obviously has love for the game and I like him as a player, he has character and a distinct style of play but maybe he isn't pursuing SC2 as a progamer, as his full-time job. I don't mean to judge him or ridicule him, I'm just being honest here.
On November 03 2010 18:36 Klive5ive wrote: Ok so perhaps IdrA is overrated by "some" people. But anyone who was on these forums before SC2 knows IdrA's limitations. He's still an awesome player though.
Really what's happening is Tyler is totally underrated. He will inevitably be an awesome player, possible even better than IdrA, it's just a matter of time.
I agree. Idra just doesn't seem to get better, same in Broodwar after he went to Korea.
I remember reading one of his interviews and he mentioned that the training hours at CJ were cumbersome and overbearing, it was part of the reason that he left CJ. Now he trains by himself on the ladder on his own time. The ladder obviously doesn't present pros/proplayers with the same level of competition or training than a select group or team can provide, also with lax training hours who knows how much he really puts in?
He obviously has love for the game and I like him as a player, he has character and a distinct style of play but maybe he isn't pursuing SC2 as a progamer, as his full-time job. I don't mean to judge him or ridicule him, I'm just being honest here.
PS. I voted for Idra to go furthest in GSL2
haha this post makes a lot more sense if you were talking about Nony instead
On November 03 2010 19:29 CharlieMurphy wrote: As I always say, idra is so overrated. Look at this poor display of ZvP. Nony simply dismantled idra's predictable macro play and poor scouting/deciphering.
One of the casters mentioned that Idra thinks forcefields are imbalanced because there is nothing to deal with them. How about you upgrade burrow and tunneling ? What kind of zerg player doesn't get that these days? Is it cheaper to let a few to half of your roaches just get trapped while you try and outmicro the forcefields and then become forced to engage? Do you think you will have too few units teching that stuff too fast?
2 important factors: If the guy is 4 gate all in or whatever, he will not have obs. Regeneration is super effective as well as the dodging. If the guy is 2-3 gate robo with ob, then he will have less stalkers and gate units in the first place.
Tunnelling and Burrow are a MUST.
Idra is only shown us he's above average at ZvT. In every other matchup versus upper tier players he just gets rolled.
These games were so one sided and lame to watch.
Clueless guy is clueless. Tunneling and burrow is a big investment. 350/350, just when lair finishes is HUGE, considering a roach is just 25 gas. Also, they take very long to complete. You need speed for your roaches to be able to attack. Roaches with speed are faster than stalkers, and can kite zlots all day. That is the first upgrade you need. You can't research tunneling claws while upgrading speed.
Considering the attack begins when lair just completes, you can't support, and most importantly, you don't have the time.
On November 03 2010 19:29 CharlieMurphy wrote: As I always say, idra is so overrated. Look at this poor display of ZvP. Nony simply dismantled idra's predictable macro play and poor scouting/deciphering.
One of the casters mentioned that Idra thinks forcefields are imbalanced because there is nothing to deal with them. How about you upgrade burrow and tunneling ? What kind of zerg player doesn't get that these days? Is it cheaper to let a few to half of your roaches just get trapped while you try and outmicro the forcefields and then become forced to engage? Do you think you will have too few units teching that stuff too fast?
2 important factors: If the guy is 4 gate all in or whatever, he will not have obs. Regeneration is super effective as well as the dodging. If the guy is 2-3 gate robo with ob, then he will have less stalkers and gate units in the first place.
Tunnelling and Burrow are a MUST.
Idra is only shown us he's above average at ZvT. In every other matchup versus upper tier players he just gets rolled.
These games were so one sided and lame to watch.
Have you seen IdrA's U.S ladder results? He has like 60 losses and 160 or so wins. I highly doubt he is Overrated. Quite frankly I think that you just don't like him or how he BMs players so you call him overrated. Ro34 in GSL1 16 in GSL2 winner of KoTB MLG 1st place. I don't know man but I wouldn't call that overrated, there are times when players have bad days. Also he is playing with a huge amount of lag I bet he lives in korea playing games on the other side of the earth.
Idra was playing in America, as he's here now for MLG Dallas. The sheer number of Idra fans blaming nonexistant lag for his piss poor performance is quite hilarious, though.
Anyway... are you seriously trying to use ladder results to prove that someone is or isn't overrated? That's the most laughable concept I've entertained in a while, and I frequent forums with Idra fans.
Idra is overrated; just look at the polls for this match or the TL poll on the right sidebar showing that the majority of users on this forum believe him to be a better player than he truly is. Statistically and by tournament performance, Idra may be the King of Foreigners, but in the wider scope of the Starcraft scene, it means absolutely nothing. Idra is a mechanical player without any natural talent or gamesense who thrives in lesser environments by the practice he puts in. To hype him to any level beyond that is a complete mischaracterization caused by undue fanboyism.
This is bullshit. Why is Idra overrated? Just because he hasn't won the GSL twice?
First let me get this straight, Idra is very good. Everyone that denies that has the be a hater. He has won almost every foreigner tournament, so it's stupid to even begin about ladder. He is also the only foreigner to actually do something in the GSL.
Yeah sure, he didn't win the GSL, but he is one of the few top players that participated in both tournaments, and advanced a few rounds. Even the Fruitdealer went out early, tester didn't qualify, ogstop, clide, maka, there are so many upsets. These things happen. And let's not forget how we went out.
To say he means nothing in the starcraft, just because he lost 1 showmatch to another extremelty talented player is stupid. You shouldn't use 1 showmatch to determine if Idra is good. Get that list of the things he participated in and how far he went in them, that will assure you that Idra is a damn good player.
How the hell is IdrA overrated? I was rooting for Tyler, but IdrA is a great player and easily the best foreigner right now if not one of the top three. Losing one show match doesn't suddenly prove all the haters right and mean he's bad. It just means someone played better than him in a showmatch and deserves the win. Nony played really well and won. IdrA played really well and lost. Stop trying to justify crazy opinions and theories and just be happy we all got to see a good showmatch?
On November 03 2010 19:29 CharlieMurphy wrote: As I always say, idra is so overrated. Look at this poor display of ZvP. Nony simply dismantled idra's predictable macro play and poor scouting/deciphering.
One of the casters mentioned that Idra thinks forcefields are imbalanced because there is nothing to deal with them. How about you upgrade burrow and tunneling ? What kind of zerg player doesn't get that these days? Is it cheaper to let a few to half of your roaches just get trapped while you try and outmicro the forcefields and then become forced to engage? Do you think you will have too few units teching that stuff too fast?
2 important factors: If the guy is 4 gate all in or whatever, he will not have obs. Regeneration is super effective as well as the dodging. If the guy is 2-3 gate robo with ob, then he will have less stalkers and gate units in the first place.
Tunnelling and Burrow are a MUST.
Idra is only shown us he's above average at ZvT. In every other matchup versus upper tier players he just gets rolled.
These games were so one sided and lame to watch.
Have you seen IdrA's U.S ladder results? He has like 60 losses and 160 or so wins. I highly doubt he is Overrated. Quite frankly I think that you just don't like him or how he BMs players so you call him overrated. Ro34 in GSL1 16 in GSL2 winner of KoTB MLG 1st place. I don't know man but I wouldn't call that overrated, there are times when players have bad days. Also he is playing with a huge amount of lag I bet he lives in korea playing games on the other side of the earth.
Idra was playing in America, as he's here now for MLG Dallas. The sheer number of Idra fans blaming nonexistant lag for his piss poor performance is quite hilarious, though.
Anyway... are you seriously trying to use ladder results to prove that someone is or isn't overrated? That's the most laughable concept I've entertained in a while, and I frequent forums with Idra fans.
Idra is overrated; just look at the polls for this match or the TL poll on the right sidebar showing that the majority of users on this forum believe him to be a better player than he truly is. Statistically and by tournament performance, Idra may be the King of Foreigners, but in the wider scope of the Starcraft scene, it means absolutely nothing. Idra is a mechanical player without any natural talent or gamesense who thrives in lesser environments by the practice he puts in. To hype him to any level beyond that is a complete mischaracterization caused by undue fanboyism.
This is bullshit. Why is Idra overrated? Just because he hasn't won the GSL twice?
First let me get this straight, Idra is very good. Everyone that denies that has the be a hater. He has won almost every foreigner tournament, so it's stupid to even begin about ladder. He is also the only foreigner to actually do something in the GSL.
Yeah sure, he didn't win the GSL, but he is one of the few top players that participated in both tournaments, and advanced a few rounds. Even the Fruitdealer went out early, tester didn't qualify, ogstop, clide, maka, there are so many upsets. These things happen. And let's not forget how we went out.
To say he means nothing in the starcraft, just because he lost 1 showmatch to another extremelty talented player is stupid. You shouldn't use 1 showmatch to determine if Idra is good. Get that list of the things he participated in and how far he went in them, that will assure you that Idra is a damn good player.
Yes, he's rated higher than he should be by the foreigner community here, which apparently expected him to be better than BoxeR and Nada. Rating Idra higher than BoxeR or Nada is overrating him in ridiculous terms, I don't see how this point is debatable at all.
Sure, Idra has sustained himself to mediocre showings in both GSL tournaments because of his efficient macro style backed by his solid handling of mechanics, but that doesn't mean Idra will ever amount of anything. Idra isn't a "damn good player" unless you're judging him on relative terms, against people who practice much less than him and who have dedicated much less time than him.
Today, Nony showed us again that Idra severely lacks talent and game sense, and what he makes up for in talent with raw mechanical dedication can't sustain him forever. I expect his finish in this past GSL to be his high water mark; soon, Idra will be competing against Koreans who will finally have put as much time into the game as him (keep in mind he's one of the few competing in the GSL who has played since beta started), who will be able to match his mindless dedication to practice and mechanics (which foreigners like Nony cannot keep up with) with actual talent, which Idra has painfully reminded us he lacks over the course of his Starcraft career.
It's a shame that actually talented foreigners who can think like Nony and White-Ra have lives outside Starcraft and are unwilling to dedicate themselves fully to the just playing the game, but maybe that's just a side effect of having a brain. Having a life.
On November 03 2010 17:24 adeezy wrote: Sigh. Idras performance has been underwhelming lately( well mlg dc was good but the matches were too one sided, and not entertaining).. The poll had idra leading to go the furthest in gsl but now we see that there are many gaps in his play. He may be he strongest foreigner but I also feel that he is over rated along with TLO. They may be better than everyone else that appears at mlg but they are obviously a level or so below the gsl competitors. Idra gets owned by zenio but zenio gets owned by nestea. People say the gsl is lackluster but if the people who win mlg and such can not hang with the gsl competitors (loner nexgenius and more). It can only mean how big the skill gap might be.
Ok I gonna respond to this but iam highly aware of this might be a trollpost.
First of all it is not entirely clear that Idra is the strongest foreigner overall. There are alot of players who are capable of beating him in a long series. tyler just recently showed this. There are not many, but they exist.
Then you have a major missconception about skill "levels". If someone beats you, and this guy is beaten by another guy, then this doesnt mean that the other guy automatically is better than you. Also only because Idra and TLO did not advance to the finals, this doesnt mean that they are "below the gsl competitors". they are the very gsl competitors themselves, they are feared and respected.
I'm so happy that Tyler won this. I myself play Zerg and normally root for them in every game but with those two players it was obvious Nony was going to be the one I really wanted to come on top.
Congratulations Tyler. And good luck in Dallas.
Also thanks to GosuCoaching for organising this event. Well done!
By the way, in anticipation of Nazgul's warning - I make no assumptions on Tyler's practice regimen, but it's pretty clear from Idra's current residence alone in an apartment in Korea training for the GSL as opposed to Tyler's choice not to join the rest of Liquid' in Korea due to his marriage the different levels of dedication that each player is going to invest in Starcraft 2.
I love how many morons draw conclusions based on one match while conveniently disregarding others. Apparently as soon as someone loses once he is overrated.
Well, with the irreparable rift he's drawn with oGs due to his BM on Korean Ladder, TL is probably not an option for him anymore.
On November 03 2010 21:49 syllogism wrote: I love how many morons draw conclusions based on one match while conveniently disregarding others. Apparently as soon as someone loses once he is overrated.
Ironic then that Idra's most ardent defenders and fanboys are the newest crop of posters on TL, of the SC2 generation
On November 03 2010 21:35 Highways wrote: Time to move out of EG?
He could've joined virtually any team and choose EG?? I do not understand.
Tasteless as manager, InControl as one of his team mates, and the team planning on doing the whole Korean house thing in 2011. Greg Fields is in a great team with loads of sponsors sending him around the world several times the past 2-3 months.
On November 03 2010 21:49 syllogism wrote: I love how many morons draw conclusions based on one match while conveniently disregarding others. Apparently as soon as someone loses once he is overrated.
Ironic then that Idra's most ardent defenders and fanboys are the newest crop of posters on TL, of the SC2 generation
I care very little about Idra, I'm simply against moronic arguments. Nice nonsensical statement by the way, as if regdate had anything to do with anything and even if it did, it's in no way "ironic".
On November 03 2010 21:49 syllogism wrote: I love how many morons draw conclusions based on one match while conveniently disregarding others. Apparently as soon as someone loses once he is overrated.
Ironic then that Idra's most ardent defenders and fanboys are the newest crop of posters on TL, of the SC2 generation
I care very little about Idra, I'm simply against moronic arguments. Nice nonsensical statement by the way, as if regdate had anything to do with anything and even if it did, it's in no way "ironic".
I was implying how Idra's fanboys tend to judge him on a smaller body of work than his detractors, and therefore it's ironic how his fanboys are now complaining how his detractors are only judging him by one game, when clearly they're not
On November 03 2010 21:49 syllogism wrote: I love how many morons draw conclusions based on one match while conveniently disregarding others. Apparently as soon as someone loses once he is overrated.
Ironic then that Idra's most ardent defenders and fanboys are the newest crop of posters on TL, of the SC2 generation
I care very little about Idra, I'm simply against moronic arguments. Nice nonsensical statement by the way, as if regdate had anything to do with anything and even if it did, it's in no way "ironic".
I was implying how Idra's fanboys tend to judge him on a smaller body of work than his detractors, and therefore it's ironic how his fanboys are now complaining how his detractors are only judging him by one game, when clearly they're not
It's entirely reasonable to consider him overrated, and he likely is to some extent, but people tend to not support these statements very well and as such they tend to be just meaningless drivel. Regardless, his success or lack of it in BW isn't really that useful data point at this time as most current "top" korean players weren't succesful either.
Moreover, I was specifically referring to people who used these games as evidence Idra's ZvP is trash.
On November 03 2010 21:49 syllogism wrote: I love how many morons draw conclusions based on one match while conveniently disregarding others. Apparently as soon as someone loses once he is overrated.
Ironic then that Idra's most ardent defenders and fanboys are the newest crop of posters on TL, of the SC2 generation
I care very little about Idra, I'm simply against moronic arguments. Nice nonsensical statement by the way, as if regdate had anything to do with anything and even if it did, it's in no way "ironic".
I was implying how Idra's fanboys tend to judge him on a smaller body of work than his detractors, and therefore it's ironic how his fanboys are now complaining how his detractors are only judging him by one game, when clearly they're not
Regardless, his success or lack of it in BW isn't really that useful data point at this time as most current "top" korean players weren't succesful either.
Do you honestly believe this will remain true over the coming months? The current flurries of former BW pro success (Cool, ITR, mvp, Boxer, Nada) will only grow and overshadow the remaining players over the next year as more players begin to come out of the woodwork. And that's not even considering the impact of current A-teamers ostensibly in "peak form" possibly switching, which Idra will have to match - he's currently playing in what is the equivalent of a 45+ tournament in regular sports
On November 03 2010 19:29 CharlieMurphy wrote: As I always say, idra is so overrated. Look at this poor display of ZvP. Nony simply dismantled idra's predictable macro play and poor scouting/deciphering.
One of the casters mentioned that Idra thinks forcefields are imbalanced because there is nothing to deal with them. How about you upgrade burrow and tunneling ? What kind of zerg player doesn't get that these days? Is it cheaper to let a few to half of your roaches just get trapped while you try and outmicro the forcefields and then become forced to engage? Do you think you will have too few units teching that stuff too fast?
2 important factors: If the guy is 4 gate all in or whatever, he will not have obs. Regeneration is super effective as well as the dodging. If the guy is 2-3 gate robo with ob, then he will have less stalkers and gate units in the first place.
Tunnelling and Burrow are a MUST.
Idra is only shown us he's above average at ZvT. In every other matchup versus upper tier players he just gets rolled.
These games were so one sided and lame to watch.
if the most accomplished foreigner is overrated then who isn't sigh... such harsh judgment from 1 showmatch lol... even the fruitdealer lost like a newb cuz he didn't make units in time... people are so mean
His ZvZ in GSL was terrible. This PvZ was terrible. And come to think of it, I haven't really seen any good games of his besides and ZvTs. Can you link me some?
On November 03 2010 19:42 Laggy wrote:
Have you seen IdrA's U.S ladder results? He has like 60 losses and 160 or so wins. I highly doubt he is Overrated. Quite frankly I think that you just don't like him or how he BMs players so you call him overrated. Ro34 in GSL1 16 in GSL2 winner of KoTB MLG 1st place. I don't know man but I wouldn't call that overrated, there are times when players have bad days. Also he is playing with a huge amount of lag I bet he lives in korea playing games on the other side of the earth.
He has the same MMR as he does on US as he does in korea now. The main reason why his record/percentage is better is because he plays mostly on korea at a higher level. So when he comes back to play on US when he's top first page ladder there, and unplayed here. Of course he is going to win streak his MMR way up to the same level. If you've noticed he's picked up quite a few losses now that he's gotten up to his normal level. I don't care about his bm, I'm strictly speaking on his play and what I've seen. Some of the players in GSL are not that good to be perfectly honest. The game is new and its more of a crap shoot in the early rounds imho (not to say all the players aren't pretty good though), still overrated though. If you watch closely in the lobby chat of one of the games Idra clearly says there is no lag when asked.
On November 03 2010 21:11 Brutus wrote:
Clueless guy is clueless. Tunneling and burrow is a big investment. 350/350, just when lair finishes is HUGE, considering a roach is just 25 gas. Also, they take very long to complete. You need speed for your roaches to be able to attack. Roaches with speed are faster than stalkers, and can kite zlots all day. That is the first upgrade you need. You can't research tunneling claws while upgrading speed.
Considering the attack begins when lair just completes, you can't support, and most importantly, you don't have the time.
I'm not clueless dude. I play zerg vs protoss at a high level myself. Firstly, you don't need tunelling ASAP. You need glial and burrow, which is only 200/200 total. Tunnelling can come a bit later after you mash out a bunch of roaches. But YOU MUST get it eventually. And my point was that, especially that it was demonstrated in those videos. When you are trapped by FF and lose a half a dozen roaches and/or forced to fight inefficiently then the further investment of tunnelling can pay huge dividends. Because for 1, it makes protoss heavy investment into sentries almost completely wasted. and for 2, the roaches lost if you retreat (say 6) is 450/150. And 2 base roaches don't need 4 geyser, so the extra gas is there to get an upgrade on top of the roach production.
IF idra had scouted the gateway tech properly he should know that he needs burrow especially if he sees that many fucking sentries jesus christ.
You are the clueless fanboy.
On November 03 2010 19:55 Kraznaya wrote:
Idra was playing in America, as he's here now for MLG Dallas. The sheer number of Idra fans blaming nonexistant lag for his piss poor performance is quite hilarious, though.
Anyway... are you seriously trying to use ladder results to prove that someone is or isn't overrated? That's the most laughable concept I've entertained in a while, and I frequent forums with Idra fans.
Idra is overrated; just look at the polls for this match or the TL poll on the right sidebar showing that the majority of users on this forum believe him to be a better player than he truly is. Statistically and by tournament performance, Idra may be the King of Foreigners, but in the wider scope of the Starcraft scene, it means absolutely nothing. Idra is a mechanical player without any natural talent or gamesense who thrives in lesser environments by the practice he puts in. To hype him to any level beyond that is a complete mischaracterization caused by undue fanboyism.
This is bullshit. Why is Idra overrated? Just because he hasn't won the GSL twice?
First let me get this straight, Idra is very good. Everyone that denies that has the be a hater. He has won almost every foreigner tournament, so it's stupid to even begin about ladder. He is also the only foreigner to actually do something in the GSL.
Yeah sure, he didn't win the GSL, but he is one of the few top players that participated in both tournaments, and advanced a few rounds. Even the Fruitdealer went out early, tester didn't qualify, ogstop, clide, maka, there are so many upsets. These things happen. And let's not forget how we went out.
To say he means nothing in the starcraft, just because he lost 1 showmatch to another extremelty talented player is stupid. You shouldn't use 1 showmatch to determine if Idra is good. Get that list of the things he participated in and how far he went in them, that will assure you that Idra is a damn good player.
[/QUOTE]
No, because he hasn't shown consistent results for anything but ZvT. Just because player X went out early doesn't mean he's not good. Fruitdealer has shown us all kinds of play in all matchups even when zerg was weak. While Idra has not. I don't care if Idra made it all the way to semis, if he only played ZvT or shitty style players. Fact is, he will never make it that far because he doesn't destroy toss or zergs like he does to terrans. And to say Nony's play was extremely good in this series is very dumb. Nony just did standard looking shit, mostly attacks that looked like they were very short planned or just little jabs designed to allow him to get a base up and running or harass and force Idra to make units instead of econ, but Idra actually just straight out lost to them.
On November 03 2010 19:29 CharlieMurphy wrote: As I always say, idra is so overrated. Look at this poor display of ZvP. Nony simply dismantled idra's predictable macro play and poor scouting/deciphering.
One of the casters mentioned that Idra thinks forcefields are imbalanced because there is nothing to deal with them. How about you upgrade burrow and tunneling ? What kind of zerg player doesn't get that these days? Is it cheaper to let a few to half of your roaches just get trapped while you try and outmicro the forcefields and then become forced to engage? Do you think you will have too few units teching that stuff too fast?
2 important factors: If the guy is 4 gate all in or whatever, he will not have obs. Regeneration is super effective as well as the dodging. If the guy is 2-3 gate robo with ob, then he will have less stalkers and gate units in the first place.
Tunnelling and Burrow are a MUST.
Idra is only shown us he's above average at ZvT. In every other matchup versus upper tier players he just gets rolled.
These games were so one sided and lame to watch.
Have you seen IdrA's U.S ladder results? He has like 60 losses and 160 or so wins. I highly doubt he is Overrated. Quite frankly I think that you just don't like him or how he BMs players so you call him overrated. Ro34 in GSL1 16 in GSL2 winner of KoTB MLG 1st place. I don't know man but I wouldn't call that overrated, there are times when players have bad days. Also he is playing with a huge amount of lag I bet he lives in korea playing games on the other side of the earth.
Idra was playing in America, as he's here now for MLG Dallas. The sheer number of Idra fans blaming nonexistant lag for his piss poor performance is quite hilarious, though.
Anyway... are you seriously trying to use ladder results to prove that someone is or isn't overrated? That's the most laughable concept I've entertained in a while, and I frequent forums with Idra fans.
Idra is overrated; just look at the polls for this match or the TL poll on the right sidebar showing that the majority of users on this forum believe him to be a better player than he truly is. Statistically and by tournament performance, Idra may be the King of Foreigners, but in the wider scope of the Starcraft scene, it means absolutely nothing. Idra is a mechanical player without any natural talent or gamesense who thrives in lesser environments by the practice he puts in. To hype him to any level beyond that is a complete mischaracterization caused by undue fanboyism.
This is bullshit. Why is Idra overrated? Just because he hasn't won the GSL twice?
First let me get this straight, Idra is very good. Everyone that denies that has the be a hater. He has won almost every foreigner tournament, so it's stupid to even begin about ladder. He is also the only foreigner to actually do something in the GSL.
Yeah sure, he didn't win the GSL, but he is one of the few top players that participated in both tournaments, and advanced a few rounds. Even the Fruitdealer went out early, tester didn't qualify, ogstop, clide, maka, there are so many upsets. These things happen. And let's not forget how we went out.
To say he means nothing in the starcraft, just because he lost 1 showmatch to another extremelty talented player is stupid. You shouldn't use 1 showmatch to determine if Idra is good. Get that list of the things he participated in and how far he went in them, that will assure you that Idra is a damn good player.
Yes, he's rated higher than he should be by the foreigner community here, which apparently expected him to be better than BoxeR and Nada. Rating Idra higher than BoxeR or Nada is overrating him in ridiculous terms, I don't see how this point is debatable at all.
Sure, Idra has sustained himself to mediocre showings in both GSL tournaments because of his efficient macro style backed by his solid handling of mechanics, but that doesn't mean Idra will ever amount of anything. Idra isn't a "damn good player" unless you're judging him on relative terms, against people who practice much less than him and who have dedicated much less time than him.
Today, Nony showed us again that Idra severely lacks talent and game sense, and what he makes up for in talent with raw mechanical dedication can't sustain him forever. I expect his finish in this past GSL to be his high water mark; soon, Idra will be competing against Koreans who will finally have put as much time into the game as him (keep in mind he's one of the few competing in the GSL who has played since beta started), who will be able to match his mindless dedication to practice and mechanics (which foreigners like Nony cannot keep up with) with actual talent, which Idra has painfully reminded us he lacks over the course of his Starcraft career.
It's a shame that actually talented foreigners who can think like Nony and White-Ra have lives outside Starcraft and are unwilling to dedicate themselves fully to the just playing the game, but maybe that's just a side effect of having a brain. Having a life.
On November 03 2010 21:49 syllogism wrote: I love how many morons draw conclusions based on one match while conveniently disregarding others. Apparently as soon as someone loses once he is overrated.
Ironic then that Idra's most ardent defenders and fanboys are the newest crop of posters on TL, of the SC2 generation
I care very little about Idra, I'm simply against moronic arguments. Nice nonsensical statement by the way, as if regdate had anything to do with anything and even if it did, it's in no way "ironic".
I was implying how Idra's fanboys tend to judge him on a smaller body of work than his detractors, and therefore it's ironic how his fanboys are now complaining how his detractors are only judging him by one game, when clearly they're not
Regardless, his success or lack of it in BW isn't really that useful data point at this time as most current "top" korean players weren't succesful either.
Do you honestly believe this will remain true over the coming months? The current flurries of former BW pro success (Cool, ITR, mvp, Boxer, Nada) will only grow and overshadow the remaining players over the next year as more players begin to come out of the woodwork. And that's not even considering the impact of current A-teamers ostensibly in "peak form" possibly switching, which Idra will have to match - he's currently playing in what is the equivalent of a 45+ tournament in regular sports
Obviously that's possible, or even very likely, but once again you could say the same about many other current "top" players. It's pretty pointless to speculate like that or at least use that as evidence someone is overrated. Indeed, players are always rated based on their present condition in relation to competition.
Charlie, if you looked at the zenio vs nestea games, idra had very similar builds; if IdrA managed to carry them out, he would always be a few units ahead. He failed to adapt by either putting down a few spinecrawlers or an extra hatchery, but other than that he might have had a crazy ZvZ and just had bad luck.
On November 03 2010 21:49 syllogism wrote: I love how many morons draw conclusions based on one match while conveniently disregarding others. Apparently as soon as someone loses once he is overrated.
Ironic then that Idra's most ardent defenders and fanboys are the newest crop of posters on TL, of the SC2 generation
I care very little about Idra, I'm simply against moronic arguments. Nice nonsensical statement by the way, as if regdate had anything to do with anything and even if it did, it's in no way "ironic".
I was implying how Idra's fanboys tend to judge him on a smaller body of work than his detractors, and therefore it's ironic how his fanboys are now complaining how his detractors are only judging him by one game, when clearly they're not
Regardless, his success or lack of it in BW isn't really that useful data point at this time as most current "top" korean players weren't succesful either.
Do you honestly believe this will remain true over the coming months? The current flurries of former BW pro success (Cool, ITR, mvp, Boxer, Nada) will only grow and overshadow the remaining players over the next year as more players begin to come out of the woodwork. And that's not even considering the impact of current A-teamers ostensibly in "peak form" possibly switching, which Idra will have to match - he's currently playing in what is the equivalent of a 45+ tournament in regular sports
Obviously that's possible, or even very likely, but once again you could say the same about many other current "top" players. It's pretty pointless to speculate like that or at least use that as evidence someone is overrated. Indeed, players are always rated based on their present condition in relation to competition.
Even on relative terms he's not exactly deserving of the hyperbole his fanboys give him of best in the world
I don't think any serious analyst actually thought Idra winning a GSL was a plausible outcome, and he hasn't really come that close
On November 03 2010 19:29 CharlieMurphy wrote: As I always say, idra is so overrated. Look at this poor display of ZvP. Nony simply dismantled idra's predictable macro play and poor scouting/deciphering.
One of the casters mentioned that Idra thinks forcefields are imbalanced because there is nothing to deal with them. How about you upgrade burrow and tunneling ? What kind of zerg player doesn't get that these days? Is it cheaper to let a few to half of your roaches just get trapped while you try and outmicro the forcefields and then become forced to engage? Do you think you will have too few units teching that stuff too fast?
2 important factors: If the guy is 4 gate all in or whatever, he will not have obs. Regeneration is super effective as well as the dodging. If the guy is 2-3 gate robo with ob, then he will have less stalkers and gate units in the first place.
Tunnelling and Burrow are a MUST.
Idra is only shown us he's above average at ZvT. In every other matchup versus upper tier players he just gets rolled.
These games were so one sided and lame to watch.
Have you seen IdrA's U.S ladder results? He has like 60 losses and 160 or so wins. I highly doubt he is Overrated. Quite frankly I think that you just don't like him or how he BMs players so you call him overrated. Ro34 in GSL1 16 in GSL2 winner of KoTB MLG 1st place. I don't know man but I wouldn't call that overrated, there are times when players have bad days. Also he is playing with a huge amount of lag I bet he lives in korea playing games on the other side of the earth.
Idra was playing in America, as he's here now for MLG Dallas. The sheer number of Idra fans blaming nonexistant lag for his piss poor performance is quite hilarious, though.
Anyway... are you seriously trying to use ladder results to prove that someone is or isn't overrated? That's the most laughable concept I've entertained in a while, and I frequent forums with Idra fans.
Idra is overrated; just look at the polls for this match or the TL poll on the right sidebar showing that the majority of users on this forum believe him to be a better player than he truly is. Statistically and by tournament performance, Idra may be the King of Foreigners, but in the wider scope of the Starcraft scene, it means absolutely nothing. Idra is a mechanical player without any natural talent or gamesense who thrives in lesser environments by the practice he puts in. To hype him to any level beyond that is a complete mischaracterization caused by undue fanboyism.
This is bullshit. Why is Idra overrated? Just because he hasn't won the GSL twice?
First let me get this straight, Idra is very good. Everyone that denies that has the be a hater. He has won almost every foreigner tournament, so it's stupid to even begin about ladder. He is also the only foreigner to actually do something in the GSL.
Yeah sure, he didn't win the GSL, but he is one of the few top players that participated in both tournaments, and advanced a few rounds. Even the Fruitdealer went out early, tester didn't qualify, ogstop, clide, maka, there are so many upsets. These things happen. And let's not forget how we went out.
To say he means nothing in the starcraft, just because he lost 1 showmatch to another extremelty talented player is stupid. You shouldn't use 1 showmatch to determine if Idra is good. Get that list of the things he participated in and how far he went in them, that will assure you that Idra is a damn good player.
Yes, he's rated higher than he should be by the foreigner community here, which apparently expected him to be better than BoxeR and Nada. Rating Idra higher than BoxeR or Nada is overrating him in ridiculous terms, I don't see how this point is debatable at all.
It isn't. Maybe you're taking this poll a little too seriously though. Of course, if you ask "who's gonna win" in a just-for-fun poll, people will answer who they want to win. No halfway serious player or commentator that I know of would ever see IdrA on the same level as Nada and Boxer, and that includes IdrA himself (correct me if I'm wrong here).
Sure, Idra has sustained himself to mediocre showings in both GSL tournaments because of his efficient macro style backed by his solid handling of mechanics, but that doesn't mean Idra will ever amount of anything. Idra isn't a "damn good player" unless you're judging him on relative terms, against people who practice much less than him and who have dedicated much less time than him.
So what you're saying is, if he wins or places well in foreigner tournaments, which he consistently does, that means nothing because his opponents haven't put in as much practice (something you don't really know), and when he shows that he can compete with Koreans you just say that means nothing without giving any reason why it means nothing? You don't really give him a chance then, do you?
If you call Ro16 in GSL "mediocre", considering all the players who were eliminated at that stage or earlier or didn't even qualify, I don't even know what to say to that.
Today, Nony showed us again that Idra severely lacks talent and game sense, and what he makes up for in talent with raw mechanical dedication can't sustain him forever. I expect his finish in this past GSL to be his high water mark; soon, Idra will be competing against Koreans who will finally have put as much time into the game as him (keep in mind he's one of the few competing in the GSL who has played since beta started), who will be able to match his mindless dedication to practice and mechanics (which foreigners like Nony cannot keep up with) with actual talent, which Idra has painfully reminded us he lacks over the course of his Starcraft career.
You might have a point there, but we don't really know. Time will tell.
It's a shame that actually talented foreigners who can think like Nony and White-Ra have lives outside Starcraft and are unwilling to dedicate themselves fully to the just playing the game, but maybe that's just a side effect of having a brain. Having a life.
Sorry, but pulling the old "if you're good at a video game you have no life" cliché out of the bag just to shit on IdrA is just low and doesn't help your point at all.
On November 03 2010 21:49 syllogism wrote: I love how many morons draw conclusions based on one match while conveniently disregarding others. Apparently as soon as someone loses once he is overrated.
Ironic then that Idra's most ardent defenders and fanboys are the newest crop of posters on TL, of the SC2 generation
I care very little about Idra, I'm simply against moronic arguments. Nice nonsensical statement by the way, as if regdate had anything to do with anything and even if it did, it's in no way "ironic".
I was implying how Idra's fanboys tend to judge him on a smaller body of work than his detractors, and therefore it's ironic how his fanboys are now complaining how his detractors are only judging him by one game, when clearly they're not
Regardless, his success or lack of it in BW isn't really that useful data point at this time as most current "top" korean players weren't succesful either.
Do you honestly believe this will remain true over the coming months? The current flurries of former BW pro success (Cool, ITR, mvp, Boxer, Nada) will only grow and overshadow the remaining players over the next year as more players begin to come out of the woodwork. And that's not even considering the impact of current A-teamers ostensibly in "peak form" possibly switching, which Idra will have to match - he's currently playing in what is the equivalent of a 45+ tournament in regular sports
Obviously that's possible, or even very likely, but once again you could say the same about many other current "top" players. It's pretty pointless to speculate like that or at least use that as evidence someone is overrated. Indeed, players are always rated based on their present condition in relation to competition.
Even on relative terms he's not exactly deserving of the hyperbole his fanboys give him of best in the world
I don't think any serious analyst actually thought Idra winning a GSL was a plausible outcome, and he hasn't really come that close
I'm not sure I've seen this hyperbole. Certainly people get excited when he wins but it appears to me few people (read: none) consider him the best player or a favorite to win GSL.
On November 03 2010 21:49 syllogism wrote: I love how many morons draw conclusions based on one match while conveniently disregarding others. Apparently as soon as someone loses once he is overrated.
Ironic then that Idra's most ardent defenders and fanboys are the newest crop of posters on TL, of the SC2 generation
I care very little about Idra, I'm simply against moronic arguments. Nice nonsensical statement by the way, as if regdate had anything to do with anything and even if it did, it's in no way "ironic".
I was implying how Idra's fanboys tend to judge him on a smaller body of work than his detractors, and therefore it's ironic how his fanboys are now complaining how his detractors are only judging him by one game, when clearly they're not
It's entirely reasonable to consider him overrated, and he likely is to some extent, but people tend to not support these statements very well and as such they tend to be just meaningless drivel. Regardless, his success or lack of it in BW isn't really that useful data point at this time as most current "top" korean players weren't succesful either.
Moreover, I was specifically referring to people who used these games as evidence Idra's ZvP is trash.
I really have to agree with CM. 350 gas? Boo hoo, you just spent 200 gas on a spire which you can easily not make, and he clearly was saving a lot more than an extra 150 gas to make mutas. It goes like this. Roach vs Gateway is in favour of gateway off creep or with lots of forcefields Speed roach vs gateway is in favour in speed roaches unless theres lots of forcefields Burrow roach vs gateway is an easy win for roaches. The only way he can transition safely is to go 2 robo immortals or he dies and nony only had 2 geysers and it takes a small switch to hydra after you have 3 bases up to shut that down and easy switch to mass corruptor off 3 base to shut down colossus. It was a 5 warpgate "allin" after all.
BTW: "If idra is overrated then so is every other player" doesn't work. You could be the best player in the world by far but not recognized because you only ladder or something and you'd be underrated. You could also be the second best player in the world but you could be overrated because everyone thinks you're the best. It's not a measure of skill, its a measure of how good people think you are, with respect to your skill. I think a lot of people assume idra will win 90% or more against anyone outside of korea. Which would most likely be "overrated" except perhaps against terran players, which is what people are getting at. He's still fucking good.
On November 03 2010 22:18 Kraz.Del wrote: Charlie, if you looked at the zenio vs nestea games, idra had very similar builds; if IdrA managed to carry them out, he would always be a few units ahead. He failed to adapt by either putting down a few spinecrawlers or an extra hatchery, but other than that he might have had a crazy ZvZ and just had bad luck.
Zenio's ZvZ was shitty as fuck. Artosis even said "I lent idra my build, he didn't have much practice in ZvZ" or whatever. If idra is resorting to getting builds from artosis for ZvZ a day before the match then he doesn't know what the fuck he is doing. That overseer shit is laughable. Next day we saw Zenio get totally owned by Zergbong, even in a game where he had a HUUGE advantage. Especially since Zenio probably had extra practice in ZvZ considering he had it 2 rounds in a row. So what does that say about Idra's ZvZ?
Besides, his failing to adapt is what is being discussed here. He is overrated.
On November 03 2010 22:31 Slayer91 wrote: I really have to agree with CM. 350 gas? Boo hoo, you just spent 200 gas on a spire which you can easily not make, and he clearly was saving a lot more than an extra 150 gas to make mutas. It goes like this. Roach vs Gateway is in favour of gateway off creep or with lots of forcefields Speed roach vs gateway is in favour in speed roaches unless theres lots of forcefields Burrow roach vs gateway is an easy win for roaches. The only way he can transition safely is to go 2 robo immortals or he dies and nony only had 2 geysers and it takes a small switch to hydra after you have 3 bases up to shut that down and easy switch to mass corruptor off 3 base to shut down colossus. It was a 5 warpgate "allin" after all.
BTW: "If idra is overrated then so is every other player" doesn't work. You could be the best player in the world by far but not recognized because you only ladder or something and you'd be underrated. You could also be the second best player in the world but you could be overrated because everyone thinks you're the best. It's not a measure of skill, its a measure of how good people think you are. I think a lot of people assume idra will win 90% or more against anyone outside of korea. Which would most likely be "overrated" except perhaps against terran players, which is what people are getting at. He's still fucking good.
This is correct. Idra is good, specifically at ZvT, we cannot doubt that. But what he has shown in other matchups is not up to par, and the amount of fanboys and votes in polls on matches and what not is absurdly overrating Idra. Sadly, the same goes for most of the foriegners. TLO, and the other TL team people are pretty good but very much overrated. White Ra definitely isn't playing as well as he should be, same for Nony (they both dn't even play that much). Dimaga, Demuslim and other EU players are high level but not godlike compared to just random non famous players on US who consistently show high ladder placement and place highly in random tournies.
I'd prefer replays because I'm really curious how hard Nony cut his probes in many of the games. Coming from Brood War, it was my impression that Protoss players never want to stop making probes. Especially in the early-mid game. But when I watched the VODs, when they did focus on the Nexi of Nony, it seems like he halts probe production and instead makes his unit production the number one priority, which seems to be the exact opposite of how it was in Brood War...
On November 03 2010 22:34 SCC-Faust wrote: Are there just going to be VODs?
I'd prefer replays because I'm really curious how hard Nony cut his probes in many of the games. Coming from Brood War, it was my impression that Protoss players never want to stop making probes. Especially in the early-mid game. But when I watched the VODs, when they did focus on the Nexi of Nony, it seems like he halts probe production and instead makes his unit production the number one priority, which seems to be the exact opposite of how it was in Brood War...
Anyone please shed light on me?
He did 2 base timing attacks, he cut probes to maximize his army, they weren't very economic plays past the expansion
On November 03 2010 22:34 SCC-Faust wrote: Are there just going to be VODs?
I'd prefer replays because I'm really curious how hard Nony cut his probes in many of the games. Coming from Brood War, it was my impression that Protoss players never want to stop making probes. Especially in the early-mid game. But when I watched the VODs, when they did focus on the Nexi of Nony, it seems like he halts probe production and instead makes his unit production the number one priority, which seems to be the exact opposite of how it was in Brood War...
Anyone please shed light on me?
Subtle points I'll point out from the vods: He got his first gas up, second gas up, but only put 1 in gas to have 16 on minerals, and he rallied his nexus to the second geyser so 16 probes on minerals was constant. Then he maynarded probes to leave 16 on minerals when his nat was up, with 2 gas. He then rallied both nexuses to the natural and once he got 16 on minerals there stopped probes. That means you have 3+3+16+16 = 38 probes which is the number idra quoted. He chono boosted 3 warpgates and kept them producing mostly sentries at first and then stalkers and zealots as his gas ran low, and added 2 more with mass chrono boost to get what is basically the biggest 2 base warpgate push possible. Never seen anything so cleanly and efficiently executed. I'm interesting on the timing of the first gas, because white ra delays his to about 17 so he can have 16 probes on minerals at all times as well. So its possible that nony went to 16 on minerals asaply and never went below that.
I'm not sure hydra would have worked. Zealots are actually great against hydras if there is enough that they get in range for a decent amount of time. Guardian shield is really good vs hydras and stalkers only barely lose a 1v1 and considering how hard nony was cutting probes and idra was planning for a macro game, I doubt he could get enough 100/50 hydras to match an warpgate army with tons of 100 zealots which do really well under guardian shield vs hydras. Obviously once you get enough hydras to melt most of the zealots at the start they win easily, but that timing attack was >fast<. It wasn't like idra saturated his third and got killed by a warpgate push like what happened with huk. He didnt even have his third finished when it was arriving.
Okay... so anyone that listened to state of the game last night heard reactions from Nony and Idra. I was expecting a more emotional reaction from both players... but they both kinda sounded like "eh, we played a match and it's over."
Nony said that he collected super abusive builds that are almost impossible to beat as zerg and are designed to win in the first 10 minutes. Idra pretty much agreed. Idra believes PvZ will be protoss favored once everyone discoveres the builds that Nony used.
So it was almost like a showcase of PvZ abuse... but other than that there wasn't much else to take from the podcast. Which makes me sad. I wanted Nony to rub it in Idra's face and I wanted Idra to have a more heated reaction.
One last thing. I get the feeling that this is one of the most elitest web sites I've ever posted on. New posters are shunned as n00bs and are given the credibility of an 8 year old. Not very welcoming.
On November 03 2010 22:46 neoenigma wrote: Okay... so anyone that listened to state of the game last night heard reactions from Nony and Idra. I was expecting a more emotional reaction from both players... but they both kinda sounded like "eh, we played a match and it's over."
Nony said that he collected super abusive builds that are almost impossible to beat as zerg... and Idra pretty much agreed. So it was almost like a showcase of PvZ abuse... but other than that there wasn't much else to take from the podcast. Which makes me sad. I wanted Nony to rub it in Idra's face and I wanted Idra to have a more heated reaction.
One last thing. I get the feeling that this is one of the most elitest web sites I've ever posted on. New posters are shunned as n00bs and are given the credibility of an 8 year old. Not very welcoming.
Most new posters post like 8 year old noobs, what can you do? I don't think its intended to be welcoming :D With regards to the rest of your post. Nony and idra and not 8 year old noobs, they are mature BW veterans who have played time and time against and Nony wasn't going to try to act like he won a macro series and he just said what happened. Whether elitist is a negative connotation or not is totally dependent on the reader.
On November 03 2010 22:39 Annox wrote: Wow that is a shock that Liquidtyler beat Idra 4-1 i cant wait to watch these Vods
They are not very entertaining, regardless of who you are a fan of. Each one ends in around 8-12 minutes, and at most reach 2 base with an attempt at a third what costs the game.
On November 03 2010 22:49 SCC-Faust wrote: Sorry for my ignorance but I assume 16 probes on minerals = the most efficient?
Correct. Any more than 2 per patch and there will be probe idle time. You will mine MORE but your additional probes will take much longer to pay for themselves. Cutting at 16 has the benefit of both having totally efficient mining and a good level of income, but it means you get a huge surge of units where you're spending all the money that would be spend on 22 or more probes (to get double gas and maximal 2 base income) on units within the time frame that the probes would not have paid for themselves.
I know it takes about 2 minutes of game time to build a drone, have it mine 50 minerals, then build a ling/roach and have it finish. (i.e totally pay for itself) So basically you want to cut drones/workers about 2 game minutes before an "all-in" attack is going to arrive. Having a little more will strengthen the reinforcements and a little less will make the inital attack slightly stronger. (unless a battle happens exactly 2 minutes after you cut, normally the zerg will delay) It doesn't matter a whole lot its just a rule of thumb. It's possible you can adjust the build to add like 2 more probes and have it slightly better, but this is a very easy way to know that you're making a deadly 5 warpgate push.
I also like how Huk 1 bases with equal or more warpgates than nony 2 bases. LOL
His ZvZ in GSL was terrible. This PvZ was terrible. And come to think of it, I haven't really seen any good games of his besides and ZvTs. Can you link me some?
vs Kiwikaki at MLG? 2:1 to IdrA. vs HuK at MLG? 2:0 to IdrA. vs HuK at EG masters cup? 3:1 to IdrA. Those are the latest ZvP's I suppose.
On November 03 2010 22:46 neoenigma wrote: Okay... so anyone that listened to state of the game last night heard reactions from Nony and Idra. I was expecting a more emotional reaction from both players... but they both kinda sounded like "eh, we played a match and it's over."
Nony said that he collected super abusive builds that are almost impossible to beat as zerg... and Idra pretty much agreed. So it was almost like a showcase of PvZ abuse... but other than that there wasn't much else to take from the podcast. Which makes me sad. I wanted Nony to rub it in Idra's face and I wanted Idra to have a more heated reaction.
One last thing. I get the feeling that this is one of the most elitest web sites I've ever posted on. New posters are shunned as n00bs and are given the credibility of an 8 year old. Not very welcoming.
Most new posters post like 8 year old noobs, what can you do? I don't think its intended to be welcoming :D With regards to the rest of your post. Nony and idra and not 8 year old noobs, they are mature BW veterans who have played time and time against and Nony wasn't going to try to act like he won a macro series and he just said what happened. Whether elitist is a negative connotation or not is totally dependent on the reader.
I know Idra and Nony are BW veterans and all... but if you listened to previous podcasts, Nony rubbed his TSL victory in Idra's face so hard. Idra's only response to that was "beat me in SC2 and we'll talk." HOW COULD THEY NOT FOLLOW THIS UP? Ahhh. So unsatisfying.
I don't particularly like elitism because if you want E-sports to grow, you need fans. You want new people to come to Team Liquid and get involved in tournaments and whatnot. Saying things like "all these IdrA fans are complete starcraft noobs and have no idea what they're talking about" is probably going to work against that. If anything, IdrA bringing in new fans is a good thing.
I didn't really get involved until I heard about the TSL and decided to watch the finals on a whim. I saw people posting about how Nony beat some guy named Idra and everyone was super happy about it. I looked up Idra and... well... you know what I discovered. He has a reputation for being a jerk... which I found exciting. It's the Howard Stern effect. People that love him watch him... and people that hate him watch him even more in hopes that he'll lose.
I'm really impressed by Tyler. He seems to be able to prepare for a match like this so good. It felt as if he knew exactly how each game was going to turn out. Very solid. GGs.
On November 03 2010 23:02 ParasitJonte wrote: I'm really impressed by Tyler. He seems to be able to prepare for a match like this so good. It felt as if he knew exactly how each game was going to turn out. Very solid. GGs.
I think if he went a little more hardcore allin on the cannon rush and made 2-3 instead of transitioning to warpgate so far it was a potential 5-0 as well. 1 cannon almost did the trick and brought him almost even if he wanted to 1 gate forge FE off of it.
Nony didn't rub in his victory in so much as JP started up shit about who would be better if they both trained hardcore and obviously nony is going to defend himself
I didn't get the impression that Tyler played especially good, and I didn't get the impression that Idra played terribly bad, yet the games turned out so short and one sided.
Tyler seems to have picked a good build, made units, and won. Idra, having a reputation of a macro monster, shouldn't really be losing games like that. I'd really like to hear what Idra has to say about this series coz I sure can't completely understand what was going on.
On November 03 2010 23:55 niteReloaded wrote: I didn't get the impression that Tyler played especially good, and I didn't get the impression that Idra played terribly bad, yet the games turned out so short and one sided.
Tyler seems to have picked a good build, made units, and won. Idra, having a reputation of a macro monster, shouldn't really be losing games like that. I'd really like to hear what Idra has to say about this series coz I sure can't completely understand what was going on.
Again... Idra and Nony talked about it on the State of the Game podcast last night. If you dont know what that is, you should DEFINITELY look into it, as it is the highlight of the week for many starcraft 2 fans. Who WOULDNT want to listen to Day9, Nony, Idra, inControl, and JP talk about Starcraft 2 for 90-120 minutes?
But in case you missed my previous post, here is a quick recap on what Nony and Idra talked about with regards to their showmatch:
Nony said that he collected super abusive builds that are almost impossible to beat as zerg and are designed to win in the first 10 minutes. Idra pretty much agreed that they are difficult to defend against. Idra believes PvZ will be protoss favored once everyone discovers the builds that Nony used.
So it was almost like a showcase of PvZ abuse... but other than that there wasn't much else to take from the showmatch or the podcast discussion about it.
Okay, I'm sick of these people coming in who don't know all the facts. Let's review how Greg got to where he is today.
Back in 2007, Greg a.k.a. Idra won Starcraft SuperStars, a controversial tournament open to U.S. residents with the chance to win a trip to Korea and join eSTRO. Before that, IdrA had very limited results in Media. Let me put it this way, I cannot recall him winning anything at all. I'm sure Greg would disagree. He knows his own results better than me, but I've been following the scene since the beginning of KBK and Cloudmania Ladder. I helped manage quite a few teams in my day and from what I recall this guy had little to no results.
The guy didn't hit my radar until he joined Media, a group of solid American players with some recognizable names. But, what did they win? Practically nothing. Sure, they climbed up to WGTour division 1 and joined other clan leagues like BWCL but they never won. I think their best results were when they were facing other American teams. So, what were they known for? Spewing a ton of shit in the scene. Not much else. Hell, I remember one time IdrA got Assem to play for him in a major tournament. I really don't have any kind words for Media. I should leave it there. Don't get me wrong, the majority of them were okay. It was mostly Skew and IdrA flaunting their e-penises around way too much back then. Both of those guys thought they were much better than they really were at that time, but both of them would cave under any pressure. All you had to do back then was get them off their game. They had weak nerves and I can understand why they would use self-talk to try and motivate their play back then.
Now that I got that bowel movement off. Back on topic:
Why was Starcraft SuperStars controversial? Well sir, many players and fans outside of the U.S. would bash the format. Like I said before, it was only open to U.S. residents (16 slots available, most players were given special invitations based on who they were). Everyone believed there were better representatives to send to Korea. In the end, IdrA got the golden ticket to Korea. Through Super Dan Man IdrA would receive his Pro Gamer license without having to go through Courage*. Something only two international players have ever accomplished:
- Australian Peter Neate a.k.a. Leggionaire going through the brutal 256 man Bo1 single elimination of death - American Brian Fransioli, otherwise known as Assem going through the revised format
Why the asterisk? In 2009, during Valor (an international tournament hosted by eSTRO and commentated by Artosis and SDM) SDM would lose his cool with IdrA's attitude. SDM refused to continue commentating the series and would later say "this is not how a pro gamer reacts... he begged me to give him a pro gamer license and this is what he does?" Pretty much word for word. Soon after they would reconcile their differences.
Prior to 2009, every time IdrA would lose (and believe me, he lost a lot) many people would heckle the shit out of him. He had a very small fan base. Most of the time it would be his Media teammates trying to back him up. The guy was always brash and thought he was the best regardless of what happened.
Many believed IdrA would succeed right away based on the fact he was training in Korea, but this wouldn't be the case. It doesn't happen overnight. Players have to re-learn the game. Everything you thought you knew was wrong. NonY and Draco can attest to this as they had to totally re-work their play from the ground up. It took him around a year of training in Korea for him to start improving his results. Heck, it wasn't even in eSTRO where he found fame, but there are several valid arguments for this.
While in eSTRO IdrA found himself playing on ICCUP most of the time because the language barrier was too great and the other players wouldn't take it upon themselves to practice with him. They simply thought he was out of place. He got no respect. He needed a move and fortunately for him he would get it when he met with the CJ Entus manager at other tournaments. CJ provided him with a much better working environment and several months later he was showing progress with the CJ B team. Still, he would fail to qualify in the MSL and OGN prelims. Usually going 0-2 in the first round. I think he did lose 1-2 one time, but other than that no dice. He would always get the quick exit even as he started doing well in international tournaments. It wasn't until 2009 that he started dominating the foreign tournament scene. Sure, IdrA still had his cookie cutter builds like Flash and his 14CC, but IdrA still showed some variance by using cheese in the finals of some tournaments.
What does it take to be a good pro gamer? Work ethic, persistence, good mechanics, micro, game sense and last but not least raw skill. The last one is the most important even though it's the smallest piece of the pie.
Greg's major flaw is his predictability and his thick skull. Other players can figure him out relatively fast. This is detrimental to his success in tournaments. However, this won't have too much effect on his ladder ranking/success yet based off the current system and the player base.
On the bright side, no one can question IdrA's work ethic and persistence in Korea and if you ask any well-known player and they'll say IdrA has solid mechanics. Even when he was back in Media. "Great mechanics, not much else." That's the very reason the eSTRO coaches decided to take him in. He wanted to be the best. No one knew how well he would respond to the move and he responded very well by demonstrating good work ethic to go along with his good mechanics. Two assets of high value in Korea. IdrA never gave up and my hat goes off to him for that. He was very fortunate.
So it was almost like a showcase of PvZ abuse... but other than that there wasn't much else to take from the podcast. Which makes me sad. I wanted Nony to rub it in Idra's face and I wanted Idra to have a more heated reaction.
See, that's not very mature though.
It's a computer game, not politics or professional wrestling.
These two have played many games against each other over the years and they don't take it personally.
I want to extend my thanks to GosuCoaching.com for setting this all up, as well as our casting team. I also want to thank everyone who played (for playing!!!1!), they were fun games.
Finally, I want to thank everyone in the overflow channel. As soon as you realized there were no mods there (due to utsream being buggy sometimes), you went off. I started taking down names. I thank everyone I banned for getting my banhammer some fresh air.
On November 04 2010 00:09 neoenigma wrote: But in case you missed my previous post, here is a quick recap on what Nony and Idra talked about with regards to their showmatch:
Nony said that he collected super abusive builds that are almost impossible to beat as zerg and are designed to win in the first 10 minutes. Idra pretty much agreed that they are difficult to defend against. Idra believes PvZ will be protoss favored once everyone discovers the builds that Nony used.
So it was almost like a showcase of PvZ abuse... but other than that there wasn't much else to take from the showmatch or the podcast discussion about it.
Even though Nony and IdrA talked about this themselves, and definitely have way more game knowledge than me, I tend to disagree.
From what I've read and saw, it just seems like timing attacks. He does cut probes, even though he is using the optimal amount for each base. But cutting probes REGARDLESS means that he isn't planning on taking a third base. When you do timing attacks like Nony did you have three outcomes, and that is it.
You either, 1. Win the game or come out so far ahead you can safely expand and keep map control. Or else you, 2. Lose the game or come out so far behind you cannot safely expand and have no map control. And then there is 3. You cannot break the opponent's defenses and it ends in a stalemate. The game should be just about equal, because if IdrA wants to defend the build he HAS to cut drones to macro up a force.
Does anyone remember speedlot rushes in PvZ in Brood War? Fast expand into a bunch of gateways, and then you rush your speedlots at the Zerg hitting right before Mutalisk/Lurker tech is done? It was very popular on Blue Storm. What was the solution? Cut drones, make a few sunkens, and mass lings.
Even CHILL said (and I remember him saying this but can't find where) that you have to cut drones to defend it, and the beauty of the Protoss build is that if Zerg doesn't get enough Zerglings, they lose, but if they commit themselves to making too many Zerglings they'll be behind. You basically just want to make "enough" Zerglings for the speedlot rush.
So with this in mind, I think IdrA should have cut drones to defend these rushes, just as Nony cut probes to time his attack. He obviously didn't and you can even see on Shakuras he expanded to a third and tried to saturate it. I really feel IdrA lost these games due to being unprepared for Nony's strategy, or he just wasn't able to defend it. Lack of skill, knowledge, whatever, I don't know.
The only way I can see this build being abusive is if option 3 occurs. If Zerg can defend it but not left with a unit advantage, Protoss AND Zerg are free to expand. And I think Protoss comes out ahead on that deal. But I'm not even sure about that, although it seems to make sense to me.
Tyler basically said on SotG podcast that he wasn't comfortable with a long game PvZ (and for reference, I'm pretty sure nobody is atm) so he abused a bunch of semi all-in timing attacks. He executed them pretty spectacularly and Idra, in his usual style, tried to scrape by with the minimum defense each game and got crushed. Great play by Tyler overall.
On November 04 2010 01:23 SCC-Faust wrote: I really feel IdrA lost these games due to being unprepared for Nony's strategy, or he just wasn't able to defend it. Lack of skill, knowledge, whatever, I don't know.
Luckily, you don't have to guess! Idra was unprepared for the strategy. He said he hadn't encountered that timing before; that he saw (watching replays, I'm guessing, before SotG) that Nony was cutting probes hard, stopping at 38; and that he needs to go experiment to see what the timing on various responses is.
I think idra lost because he wasn't prepare to all this 1 base or 1.5base all-in build. I think this builds are very good against a pure macro player like Idra, because he always wanna go into a macro game with muta harass. To counter this builds you have to go 2 base with 3 or 4 spine crawler to defend an early agression and transition into an all in roach/hydra with +1/0 or +1/1. A 2 base roach/hydra with upgrades is a all-in because you are screwed if the protoss go 2 base 4+ colossi timing attack (you need a third to afford some corrupters with your mix)
2 base roach/hydra +1/0 or +1/+1> 1 base all in or 2 base 6 gate +1/0 gateway units> 2 base muta/speedling harass into late game> 2 base 4+ colossi timing attack> 2base roach/hydra +1/0 or +1/+1
On November 04 2010 02:01 Liquid`HayprO wrote: this is so sad to read.
Yeah this thread has gone to crap pretty quickly... I mean people saying Idra is crap because of one showmatch? o0 Idra won MLG DC and should still be a major threat at Dallas people getting a little bit carried away. And by a little bit I mean a lot a bit.
On November 04 2010 01:49 Samhax wrote:I think idra lost because he wasn't prepare to all this 1 base or 1.5base all-in build.
I sincerely doubt that. If he wasn't prepared for pushes like these, what was he prepared for and what did he expect to Tyler to do? I don't think the way games developed surprised anybody, least of all Idra.
There's a theoretical solution for every problem in Starcraft. Sure Idra could go for a less macro-oriented game to "counter" what Nony did. He just doesn't want to. It puts him out of his comfort zone, prevents him from doing what he excels at, and Tyler would have a clear advantage over him in any sort of micro oriented early clash.
On November 04 2010 01:49 Samhax wrote:I think idra lost because he wasn't prepare to all this 1 base or 1.5base all-in build.
I sincerely doubt that. If he wasn't prepared for pushes like these, what was he prepared for and what did he expect to Tyler to do? I don't think the way games developed surprised anybody, least of all Idra.
There's a theoretical solution for every problem in Starcraft. Sure Idra could go for a less macro-oriented game to "counter" what Nony did. He just doesn't want to. It puts him out of his comfort zone, prevents him from doing what he excels at, and Tyler would have a clear advantage over him in any sort of micro oriented early clash.
I don't think anyone was prepared for it, this was the deadliest warpgate attack I've ever seen and I can't see it get much more efficient than this. You should be able to get burrow roach in time to hold it if he has no obs, you can unburrow under him or at least go under FF's, but I can't see anything else working. Nony tends to come out with sick efficient builds and just roll someone. Remember the game vs moonglade? What moonglade was doing is starting to get popular again, mass spine muta ling. Pheonix got buffed. Wonder if zergs just have to adapt with corruptors since the colossus switch with the third base can shut down hydra no problems.
On November 04 2010 01:49 Samhax wrote:I think idra lost because he wasn't prepare to all this 1 base or 1.5base all-in build.
I sincerely doubt that. If he wasn't prepared for pushes like these, what was he prepared for and what did he expect to Tyler to do? I don't think the way games developed surprised anybody, least of all Idra.
There's a theoretical solution for every problem in Starcraft. Sure Idra could go for a less macro-oriented game to "counter" what Nony did. He just doesn't want to. It puts him out of his comfort zone, prevents him from doing what he excels at, and Tyler would have a clear advantage over him in any sort of micro oriented early clash.
>.> He specifically said he wasn't prepared for that timing with that size of an army. Nony only made 2 geysers and had 2 probes/patch, which made his attack more all-inish than most timing attacks but gave him a better army. It's not that IdrA can't handle all-ins or timing pushes, this was just an exact timing that he was unfamiliar with, and Nony's execution was damn near perfect.
It's not something you can adapt to on the fly unless your opponent makes a mistakes.
It'd still be a very hard win even if Idra cut probes. He lost pretty convincingly in some of those games, mostly due to the effectiveness of forcefields. I think it'd really come down to micro alone in being able to dodge the FF with speed roaches on creep, It's hard to think of another way to pull it off.
On November 04 2010 01:49 Samhax wrote:I think idra lost because he wasn't prepare to all this 1 base or 1.5base all-in build.
I sincerely doubt that. If he wasn't prepared for pushes like these, what was he prepared for and what did he expect to Tyler to do? I don't think the way games developed surprised anybody, least of all Idra.
There's a theoretical solution for every problem in Starcraft. Sure Idra could go for a less macro-oriented game to "counter" what Nony did. He just doesn't want to. It puts him out of his comfort zone, prevents him from doing what he excels at, and Tyler would have a clear advantage over him in any sort of micro oriented early clash.
>.> He specifically said he wasn't prepared for that timing with that size of an army. Nony only made 2 geysers and had 2 probes/patch, which made his attack more all-inish than most timing attacks but gave him a better army. It's not that IdrA can't handle all-ins or timing pushes, this was just an exact timing that he was unfamiliar with, and Nony's execution was damn near perfect.
I do agree with that. The way I understood the post I replied to, though, led me to believe it was referring more to Tyler's general intention of going all-inish than the exact structure of his strategies.
On the other hand, Idra also played pretty much on razor's edge, deliberately taking the risks for the near-sure win if he manages to repel the first attack.
On November 04 2010 02:24 RyanRushia wrote: are the replays for the following series after the main event anywhere? i couldnt find on gosucoaching
Did you even look?
That was my immediate reaction, too, but then I realized he was looking for the Machine/Hashe, Lz/ztr, and Inka/Sheth games, which I couldn't find on gosucoaching, either.
On November 04 2010 02:24 RyanRushia wrote: are the replays for the following series after the main event anywhere? i couldnt find on gosucoaching
Did you even look?
That was my immediate reaction, too, but then I realized he was looking for the Machine/Hashe, Lz/ztr, and Inka/Sheth games, which I couldn't find on gosucoaching, either.
Oh God Nazgul has made a mistake, the world is going to end.
On November 04 2010 02:24 RyanRushia wrote: are the replays for the following series after the main event anywhere? i couldnt find on gosucoaching
Did you even look?
i checked 2 rep sites
sc2rep.net and the rep.s.163.com site, as well as gosucoaching, and there was so much arguing going on in recent posts i didnt wantt o delve all the way back
edit: and i wasnt insulting nazgul... truly couldnt find the replays
On November 04 2010 02:24 RyanRushia wrote: are the replays for the following series after the main event anywhere? i couldnt find on gosucoaching
Did you even look?
That was my immediate reaction, too, but then I realized he was looking for the Machine/Hashe, Lz/ztr, and Inka/Sheth games, which I couldn't find on gosucoaching, either.
Oh God Nazgul has made a mistake, the world is going to end.
I didn't mean to be calling him out or anything, but I can see that "but then I realized" could be read that way. My bad!
On November 04 2010 01:49 Samhax wrote:I think idra lost because he wasn't prepare to all this 1 base or 1.5base all-in build.
I sincerely doubt that. If he wasn't prepared for pushes like these, what was he prepared for and what did he expect to Tyler to do? I don't think the way games developed surprised anybody, least of all Idra.
There's a theoretical solution for every problem in Starcraft. Sure Idra could go for a less macro-oriented game to "counter" what Nony did. He just doesn't want to. It puts him out of his comfort zone, prevents him from doing what he excels at, and Tyler would have a clear advantage over him in any sort of micro oriented early clash.
>.> He specifically said he wasn't prepared for that timing with that size of an army. Nony only made 2 geysers and had 2 probes/patch, which made his attack more all-inish than most timing attacks but gave him a better army. It's not that IdrA can't handle all-ins or timing pushes, this was just an exact timing that he was unfamiliar with, and Nony's execution was damn near perfect.
I do agree with that. The way I understood the post I replied to, though, led me to believe it was referring more to Tyler's general intention of going all-inish than the exact structure of his strategies.
On the other hand, Idra also played pretty much on razor's edge, deliberately taking the risks for the near-sure win if he manages to repel the first attack.
It was obvious that Nony's build were very unique and executed perfectly, i put them them in the 2 base 6 gate because it was more easy for me to describe them. But the optimisation of the army size/composition and the eco management were really unique.
On November 04 2010 02:24 RyanRushia wrote: are the replays for the following series after the main event anywhere? i couldnt find on gosucoaching
Did you even look?
That was my immediate reaction, too, but then I realized he was looking for the Machine/Hashe, Lz/ztr, and Inka/Sheth games, which I couldn't find on gosucoaching, either.
Oh God Nazgul has made a mistake, the world is going to end.
I didn't mean to be calling him out or anything, but I can see that "but then I realized" could be read that way. My bad!
Haha yeah it's just that Nazgul usually has no imperfections (except his relationship w/ the ring)
On November 04 2010 02:01 Liquid`HayprO wrote: this is so sad to read.
I really don't mean to be disrespectful in any way, but how are one-liners of this kind supposed to help? I for one would be highly interested to read high level players' and knowledgeable commentators' take on the series amidst all this "anarchy"; it can be hard to know what to make of a set of games sometimes, and it would be nice to get some informed opinions to consider. It would keep up the thread quality and benefit everyone in the community who wants to learn something. At least you could specify what about the posts here is so terrible. Otherwise you'll just randomly make people who posted here feel bad and leave them clueless as to why.
I'm no pro by any means but, on shakuras when Idra's overseer scouted nony's main / natural he saw a lot of warpgates, no gas at expo, and no robo. At that moment wouldn't it be ideal to get the hydra den down and start preparing for a strong warpgate push. Couple more spines and some hydra's behind those roaches , along with cutting drone production and I think he could of held off.
Anyways, I very much enjoyed the series even with the unexpected outcome. Well played tyler and GL to both of you in Dallas. I will look forward to a Idra / Nony finals =)
On November 04 2010 01:49 Samhax wrote:I think idra lost because he wasn't prepare to all this 1 base or 1.5base all-in build.
I sincerely doubt that. If he wasn't prepared for pushes like these, what was he prepared for and what did he expect to Tyler to do? I don't think the way games developed surprised anybody, least of all Idra.
There's a theoretical solution for every problem in Starcraft. Sure Idra could go for a less macro-oriented game to "counter" what Nony did. He just doesn't want to. It puts him out of his comfort zone, prevents him from doing what he excels at, and Tyler would have a clear advantage over him in any sort of micro oriented early clash.
>.> He specifically said he wasn't prepared for that timing with that size of an army. Nony only made 2 geysers and had 2 probes/patch, which made his attack more all-inish than most timing attacks but gave him a better army. It's not that IdrA can't handle all-ins or timing pushes, this was just an exact timing that he was unfamiliar with, and Nony's execution was damn near perfect.
I do agree with that. The way I understood the post I replied to, though, led me to believe it was referring more to Tyler's general intention of going all-inish than the exact structure of his strategies.
On the other hand, Idra also played pretty much on razor's edge, deliberately taking the risks for the near-sure win if he manages to repel the first attack.
Reminds me of TSL2, particularly the last game in their series. IdrA bunker expands, Nony comes out with an awesome 2 gates in the middle of the map timing push. Nony is the master at throwing together a timing attack.
On November 04 2010 03:09 Lomak wrote: I'm no pro by any means but, on shakuras when Idra's overseer scouted nony's main / natural he saw a lot of warpgates, no gas at expo, and no robo. At that moment wouldn't it be ideal to get the hydra den down and start preparing for a strong warpgate push. Couple more spines and some hydra's behind those roaches , along with cutting drone production and I think he could of held off.
Anyways, I very much enjoyed the series even with the unexpected outcome. Well played tyler and GL to both of you in Dallas. I will look forward to a Idra / Nony finals =)
Doubt that's going to happen. These builds were designed to cripple a zerg in the mid-game before zerg has a chance to explode macro-wise. These builds may work perfectly against a player like Idra... but Idra isn't the only one going to MLG.
Against other protoss and terran players.... Nony will need something else. I expect he will do well but perhaps not the finals. Would be nice though. I expect there are very few toss players going to MLG who could pull off those builds so perfectly... so Idra will probably progress to the finals again without too much trouble.
On November 04 2010 02:24 RyanRushia wrote: are the replays for the following series after the main event anywhere? i couldnt find on gosucoaching
Did you even look?
That was my immediate reaction, too, but then I realized he was looking for the Machine/Hashe, Lz/ztr, and Inka/Sheth games, which I couldn't find on gosucoaching, either.
Oh God Nazgul has made a mistake, the world is going to end.
I didn't mean to be calling him out or anything, but I can see that "but then I realized" could be read that way. My bad!
Haha yeah it's just that Nazgul usually has no imperfections (except his relationship w/ the ring)
It wasn't a mistake. Nazgul was merely attempting to appear human. He does it every now and then. Don't be fooled.
that blink stalker micro was actually one of the most impressively micro'd battles i've seen in SC2 and it really gives me a lot of hope for the future of the game and nony as a player.
props to nony for curbstomping idra and making it look easy.
hopefully eventually we'll see some fpvods from nony in SC2 like he did for BW.
On November 04 2010 02:31 Talin wrote: On the other hand, Idra also played pretty much on razor's edge, deliberately taking the risks for the near-sure win if he manages to repel the first attack.
Well, that's the beauty of SC2/BW. You cut corners to try and get away with as little as possible, so you can eventually take as big of an advantage as possible.
Watched games 1 through 4 nothing new that I havent as far as builds in PvZ but Tylers timings were spot on. Also of note to Protoss players was the game 4 saving the chrono boost for the warp gates allowing him to macro up units rather quickly. Also going sentry heavy for the expand and sentry/stalker heavy builds excellent mico and macro from Tyler in the series. I think in game 4 a +1 would have made the push even stronger if Tyler is following this thread why not go for +1? Would have allowed for idra to Pump mutas if the attack was delayed any longer? Spire goes down at 8:15.
On November 03 2010 09:53 coddan wrote: IdrA not reaching his usual level. Hope he picks it up, he destroyed HuK the other day.
Huk needs to learn from Tyler.
lol?
HuK is a better player than Nony (from what we are able to see).
that is a fact
It's isn't so black and white. HuK is a newer generation up-and-comping player, is obviously in a better shape, practices more than and wins more than Tyler.
On the other hand, I still think Tyler is the better player in the sense that HuK has a lot to learn from him rather than the other way around. HuK hasn't quite yet reached the level that Tyler was at in BW, nor does he have the experience of playing professionally in Korea.
Tyler is more like the old Jedi master of sorts, while HuK is the talented apprentice strong in the Force, to put it that way. =P
Huk plays a ton and was good in beta, but as discussed in SoTG last night, his relative ability to compete is diminishing as smarter and more talented players with less time put in keep stepping it up and understanding the game better.
HuK got creamed by Idra recently, and even gave up under the guise of mothership fan service because he knew he didn't have a chance against Select.
Tyler has barely played, but his results relative to the time he's put in, and his insight on SoTG makes it clear how smart he is, how he words things, his points he makes that no one else does.
I'd say Tyler is more talented, but HuK works harder and comes out as the better player. Last night was a pretty awesome display of Tyler's understanding of the game, being able to just churn out a build to combat a specific player. He has a big leg up on HuK experience wise.
Some of those games struck me as rather odd. Maybe this is just my lack of knowledge, but even the commentators seemed to think Idra was rather quick with the gg's?
In any case it was good to see a successful PvZ match up, although I dont know if I should try to emulate it since Idra seemed to play very greedy didnt he?
Huk is much better pvp, also better pvt, but nony is better pvz. Huk usually tries to go too macro-intensive and Z just wins that econ race. I hope they both do well in TX.
By the way, thanks for the 3 gate/expo/5 warp-gate clinic Tyler!
Huk does need to learn from Tyler, as does Tyler from Huk. Everyone can learn from each other there are always new things to learn that you may not have seen before. Stop with this who is better stuff based on a single series stuff. Compare players over time you will see that there is no Protoss who has put up the results Huk has. The only player who comes close is Socke but Huk is outperforming him when it comes to major tournaments (MLG/IEM).
Really great games. Not totally entertaining, but nevertheless highlevel. Game 5 Tyler builds a sentry, 3 gates, kills the drone, then builds the stargate and goes to the lowground to fake an expansion. I dont know if idra usually scouts earlier with his overlord, or just thought scouting wasnt necessary. In game three, where he blinked his stalkers to the lowground, to not get hit by the lings. I loved that play. Game 4 actually I thought idra was delaying the push pretty good and there were some missed forcefields, I think.
On November 03 2010 09:53 coddan wrote: IdrA not reaching his usual level. Hope he picks it up, he destroyed HuK the other day.
Huk needs to learn from Tyler.
lol?
HuK is a better player than Nony (from what we are able to see).
that is a fact
It's isn't so black and white. HuK is a newer generation up-and-comping player, is obviously in a better shape, practices more than and wins more than Tyler.
On the other hand, I still think Tyler is the better player in the sense that HuK has a lot to learn from him rather than the other way around. HuK hasn't quite yet reached the level that Tyler was at in BW, nor does he have the experience of playing professionally in Korea.
Tyler is more like the old Jedi master of sorts, while HuK is the talented apprentice strong in the Force, to put it that way. =P
He wasn't even close to the level that Nony was at in BW. Nobody outside Korea was, not even IdrA. Tyler would be an even greater player if he had time to fully dedicate himself to SC2, which he does not so he is not at his full potential. Tyler has a crazy ability to macro, multitask, micro and come up with the best timing pushes around. He could easily be #1 player if he dedicated himself as much as HuK or any other full time pro.
On November 03 2010 09:53 coddan wrote: IdrA not reaching his usual level. Hope he picks it up, he destroyed HuK the other day.
Huk needs to learn from Tyler.
lol?
HuK is a better player than Nony (from what we are able to see).
that is a fact
It's isn't so black and white. HuK is a newer generation up-and-comping player, is obviously in a better shape, practices more than and wins more than Tyler.
On the other hand, I still think Tyler is the better player in the sense that HuK has a lot to learn from him rather than the other way around. HuK hasn't quite yet reached the level that Tyler was at in BW, nor does he have the experience of playing professionally in Korea.
Tyler is more like the old Jedi master of sorts, while HuK is the talented apprentice strong in the Force, to put it that way. =P
He wasn't even close to the level that Nony was at in BW. Nobody outside Korea was, not even IdrA. Tyler would be an even greater player if he had time to fully dedicate himself to SC2, which he does not so he is not at his full potential. Tyler has a crazy ability to macro, multitask, micro and come up with the best timing pushes around. He could easily be #1 player if he dedicated himself as much as HuK or any other full time pro.
LOL I hate when people say this. It's meaningless conjecture. If Nony could be #1 "easily" if he was more dedicated, why doesn't he dedicate himself more? Being the best is not about "possibly being able to beat everyone else if you tried" but about putting up the best results, and NonY did not do that and I don't foresee him ever doing that in either sc1 or sc2.
Don't get me wrong, Nony is an amazing player and has been one of my favorites since sc1 but it's impossible to say anything about how good he could be.
HuK is a better player than Nony (from what we are able to see).
that is a fact
Hmm. I would disagree. Listen to the latest State of the Game for some pretty compelling arguments from players whose opinions you'd actually care about. There is no question that Tyler has the superior PvZ play.
On November 03 2010 09:53 coddan wrote: IdrA not reaching his usual level. Hope he picks it up, he destroyed HuK the other day.
Huk needs to learn from Tyler.
lol?
HuK is a better player than Nony (from what we are able to see).
that is a fact
It's isn't so black and white. HuK is a newer generation up-and-comping player, is obviously in a better shape, practices more than and wins more than Tyler.
On the other hand, I still think Tyler is the better player in the sense that HuK has a lot to learn from him rather than the other way around. HuK hasn't quite yet reached the level that Tyler was at in BW, nor does he have the experience of playing professionally in Korea.
Tyler is more like the old Jedi master of sorts, while HuK is the talented apprentice strong in the Force, to put it that way. =P
He wasn't even close to the level that Nony was at in BW. Nobody outside Korea was, not even IdrA. Tyler would be an even greater player if he had time to fully dedicate himself to SC2, which he does not so he is not at his full potential. Tyler has a crazy ability to macro, multitask, micro and come up with the best timing pushes around. He could easily be #1 player if he dedicated himself as much as HuK or any other full time pro.
LOL I hate when people say this. It's meaningless conjecture. If Nony could be #1 "easily" if he was more dedicated, why doesn't he dedicate himself more? Being the best is not about "possibly being able to beat everyone else if you tried" but about putting up the best results, and NonY did not do that and I don't foresee him ever doing that in either sc1 or sc2.
Don't get me wrong, Nony is an amazing player and has been one of my favorites since sc1 but it's impossible to say anything about how good he could be.
From my understanding, Nony has too many RL obligations to hunch over the computer 8 hours a day anymore.
On November 04 2010 07:02 lac29 wrote: Very disappointing series and it almost feels like Idra didn't try at all which makes the showmatch seem stupid and pointless =(.
GO listen to teh SOTG podcast... and you'll understand what happened. Idra did try. Nony just used some semi abusive PvZ builds he collected.
The difference between Huk vs Idra and Nony vs Idra is that Nony prepared for the matchup where as Huk went in against Idra like he was just another oppoonent. Nony used builds designed perfectly for beating players like Idra. So huk will probably get better tournament results overall... and Nony will beat more zergs
On November 04 2010 06:48 Tachion wrote: From my understanding, Nony has too many RL obligations to hunch over the computer 8 hours a day anymore.
Yes, and that is his Achilles' heel, so to speak. Nony/Tyler is like Ret in many ways, in that he's been to Korea but decided that he doesn't want to stay. Of course I'm eating those words now that Ret is going to Korea again, but with Tyler it just seems different. He's older. He's married. He has a university degree. In that he's not the same as the people willing to sacrifice virtually everything to be number one in Starcraft.
eSports may still be Tyler's career, but it's not something he's willing to drop everything else for, and he's made this clear many times. If eSports makes it big in America, and it becomes a legitimate career here, I can see Tyler going far. But if it remains a Korea-specific deal with the GSL and whatever else is coming, I don't see Tyler going over just because of that. And in that event, I don't see him reaching what he is capable of as a player who not only has good mechanics (NonY had one of the best mechanics among foreigners in BW) and tournament skills, but who also possesses an amazing ability to read his opponents, craft build orders, and exploit the meta-game.
On November 04 2010 05:30 0neder wrote: HuK got creamed by Idra recently, and even gave up under the guise of mothership fan service because he knew he didn't have a chance against Select.
Well, after seeing HuK against Select in a recent bo5 (after MLG), I feel confident in stating that this is completely false.
On November 04 2010 07:02 lac29 wrote: Very disappointing series and it almost feels like Idra didn't try at all which makes the showmatch seem stupid and pointless =(.
GO listen to teh SOTG podcast... and you'll understand what happened. Idra did try. Nony just used some semi abusive PvZ builds he collected.
The difference between Huk vs Idra and Nony vs Idra is that Nony prepared for the matchup where as Huk went in against Idra like he was just another oppoonent. Nony used builds designed perfectly for beating players like Idra. So huk will probably get better tournament results overall... and Nony will beat more zergs
My point is more like Idra should have continued instead of gg early since this is a showmatch and ppl are looking for actual game time to watch.
On November 04 2010 05:50 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Huk does need to learn from Tyler, as does Tyler from Huk. Everyone can learn from each other there are always new things to learn that you may not have seen before. Stop with this who is better stuff based on a single series stuff. Compare players over time you will see that there is no Protoss who has put up the results Huk has. The only player who comes close is Socke but Huk is outperforming him when it comes to major tournaments (MLG/IEM).
Stop trying to reason with them Naz they never listen (-.-)
Just watched the matches cast by Husky on starcraftarena.net
Fantastic stuff! Every time Idra went too hard on macro, Nony punished him for it. That's how it should be. Amazing FF micro and blink micro won it for him on two games as well, just awesome.
Premature GGs by Idra (he definitely could have come back in that last game), but overall a great series!
On November 04 2010 05:50 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Huk does need to learn from Tyler, as does Tyler from Huk. Everyone can learn from each other there are always new things to learn that you may not have seen before. Stop with this who is better stuff based on a single series stuff. Compare players over time you will see that there is no Protoss who has put up the results Huk has. The only player who comes close is Socke but Huk is outperforming him when it comes to major tournaments (MLG/IEM).
Stop trying to reason with them Naz they never listen (-.-)
Yeah, just throwing in every once in a while that this forum is full of idiots is probably the more constructive thing to do. :/
I love IdrA's GG timing, I mean some people wait until the opponent kills his whole army moves into his face AND kills his main building, "Maybe he won't notice my base, turn back, go to the bathroom and let me macro to 5 bases". No, not going to happen, just GG already.
On November 04 2010 06:32 QuakerOats wrote: LOL I hate when people say this. It's meaningless conjecture. If Nony could be #1 "easily" if he was more dedicated, why doesn't he dedicate himself more?
Because for some people, professionally playing StarCraft 2 is not their top priority.
PS. I love it how obvious things need to be pointed out in forums.
On November 04 2010 06:32 QuakerOats wrote: LOL I hate when people say this. It's meaningless conjecture. If Nony could be #1 "easily" if he was more dedicated, why doesn't he dedicate himself more?
Because for some people, professionally playing StarCraft 2 is not their top priority.
PS. I love it how obvious things need to be pointed out in forums.
I am pretty sure he knows why Nony isn't doing it. He just thinks that the discussion is meaningless speculation until Nony really commits (although I think meaningless speculation is often fun^^).
In my opinion, this is also pretty obvious if you read QuakerOats full post.
On November 04 2010 07:02 lac29 wrote: Very disappointing series and it almost feels like Idra didn't try at all which makes the showmatch seem stupid and pointless =(.
GO listen to teh SOTG podcast... and you'll understand what happened. Idra did try. Nony just used some semi abusive PvZ builds he collected.
The difference between Huk vs Idra and Nony vs Idra is that Nony prepared for the matchup where as Huk went in against Idra like he was just another oppoonent. Nony used builds designed perfectly for beating players like Idra. So huk will probably get better tournament results overall... and Nony will beat more zergs
My point is more like Idra should have continued instead of gg early since this is a showmatch and ppl are looking for actual game time to watch.
I think Idra is always that way when it comes to GG though. If he sees that he is in a huge disadvantage, he will gg right away rather than wait until the last building falls. Personally, I would love to see Idra stick around and may be try to turn it around. But then again, most of Idra's opponent is top pros and they won't likely to let those advantages go to waste. The series may be short but to see Nony comes up with a strategy like that is just so awesome, prop to him. I hope he does very well in Dallas.
On November 06 2010 06:10 riverkim09 wrote: IdrA is looking worse and worse as time progresses. By next year, he won't even qualify for gsl anymore
What are you basing this on? He did better on GSL than he did last time and he won MLG DC. The showmatch against Tyler is the only weak performance by him in a fairly long time.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.sc2rep.com/images/protoss.gif)
Liquid`Tyler vs. ![[image loading]](http://www.sc2rep.com/images/zerg.gif)
IdrA
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/aX9X3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/9923/wbprotossf.png)
![[image loading]](http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4147/5090161059_cfc99c3c5e.jpg)
