EPT[D]The GSL - too top heavy in the prize payout? - Page 2
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TheBB
Switzerland5133 Posts
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Adrenaline Seed
United States194 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:01 Sabyn wrote: We are talking about a tournament with a free offline qualifier, which means at least a thousand entries on the low end (pulling that outa my ass, I looked and couldn't find any real numbers on how many entered the prelims). So top64 automatically puts you in the top 10% of the players. Though after looking in to it the ro64 is determined by the prelims, so I am not sure if the ro64 people should be getting much (definitely something for getting a televised match though). It depends on how big the prelims are and how many rounds. My biggest gripe wast the top16, top8 and top4. I mean have you guys looked at the payout ratios of larger tournaments like you see in poker? Check out the link I posted. making it to the round of 64 in GSL wasn't really that big an accomplishment. a lot of the players who qualified were total garbage even using our own NA top 200 as the standard. many bad players cheesed and all-in'd their way in, many good players got luckboxed out in a similar fashion. GSL ro64 qualification was very much a crapshoot, with only truly superior players able to guarantee themselves a berth. Again, look at my link to the 2009 WSOP. It is no where near as top heavy as the GSL. Having the ratio of 85:25:8:8 is nuts. And where do you get that I am proposing an "everybody is a winner payout structure"? I want to take 20-30k from first place and give it to the people who got in the top16. Or are those players in the top16 just scrubs who don't deserve anything? And the way you attract pros is by throwing money at them. Those pros know that they won't be winning every event, hell, its likely they won't win a single one. But it is VERY likely that they can make quite a few ro16s, ro8s, and semi finals. Its not about being all nice to the subpar pro gamers, its about having a sensible prize structure which rewards everyone who does well, not just the person who does the best. And it is not GOMTV's responsibilty to pay pro gamers a living wage. I think this prize structure doesn't reward hard work correctly. Getting top8 is a pretty damn good achievement, and in interviews most pros don't even talk about wanting to win the whole thing, its about getting top8 or top4. ratio of 85:25:8:8?! what? i think you used that incorrectly  first place in this tournament was roughly 45% of the total prizepool, that's not a huge portion. the WSOP had THOUSANDS MORE ENTRIES and a ton more money on the table, much more easily divisible and the point of paying out lower placements is to give back the player's entry fee (nobody paid to enter GSL) plus a little change for their effort. you're taking interview comments out of context. progamers talk about their goal being ro4 or ro8 because they are modest and taught to concentrate on their immediate future, one series at a time. this is something that has been present in korean progamer interviews since the dawn of time, but EVERY SINGLE PLAYER aspires to win it all. there is absolutely no truth in saying they're 'satisfied with ro8' or 'realistically dont expect to win so are planning financially based on ro8 payouts'. progamers want to win the tournament, period. it's that desire that makes these tournaments possible in the first place, and a giant first-place prize keeps them coming back, not a piddly paycheck from the round of 32. they outta remove payment for the ro32 and ro64 and roll THAT into the top 16 | ||
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Zeroes
United States1102 Posts
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mucker
United States1120 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:01 Sabyn wrote: Again, look at my link to the 2009 WSOP. It is no where near as top heavy as the GSL. Having the ratio of 85:25:8:8 is nuts. And where do you get that I am proposing an "everybody is a winner payout structure"? I want to take 20-30k from first place and give it to the people who got in the top16. Or are those players in the top16 just scrubs who don't deserve anything? And the way you attract pros is by throwing money at them. Those pros know that they won't be winning every event, hell, its likely they won't win a single one. But it is VERY likely that they can make quite a few ro16s, ro8s, and semi finals. Its not about being all nice to the subpar pro gamers, its about having a sensible prize structure which rewards everyone who does well, not just the person who does the best. And it is not GOMTV's responsibilty to pay pro gamers a living wage. I think this prize structure doesn't reward hard work correctly. Getting top8 is a pretty damn good achievement, and in interviews most pros don't even talk about wanting to win the whole thing, its about getting top8 or top4. Look at your own WSOP link. $10k buy in. Entries: 6494. Did you look at how far down the payout table goes? Only the top 10% get paid. You really want to compare that to the GSL? What's 10% of 64? Now look at your GSL payouts again. What was the entry fee for the GSL again? Is it your position that the GSL isn't attracting pros? You really think dropping the grand prize 30k and upping the round 8 and 16 1k is going to attract more? | ||
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shannn
Netherlands2891 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:01 Sabyn wrote: We are talking about a tournament with a free offline qualifier, which means at least a thousand entries on the low end (pulling that outa my ass, I looked and couldn't find any real numbers on how many entered the prelims). So top64 automatically puts you in the top 10% of the players. Though after looking in to it the ro64 is determined by the prelims, so I am not sure if the ro64 people should be getting much (definitely something for getting a televised match though). It depends on how big the prelims are and how many rounds. My biggest gripe wast the top16, top8 and top4. I mean have you guys looked at the payout ratios of larger tournaments like you see in poker? Check out the link I posted. I think they are doing something similar in having 12 tournaments a year, one a month with different formats. No idea what those formats are yet, but it does give players a big tournament every month, so thats something. Again, look at my link to the 2009 WSOP. It is no where near as top heavy as the GSL. Having the ratio of 85:25:8:8 is nuts. And where do you get that I am proposing an "everybody is a winner payout structure"? I want to take 20-30k from first place and give it to the people who got in the top16. Or are those players in the top16 just scrubs who don't deserve anything? And the way you attract pros is by throwing money at them. Those pros know that they won't be winning every event, hell, its likely they won't win a single one. But it is VERY likely that they can make quite a few ro16s, ro8s, and semi finals. Its not about being all nice to the subpar pro gamers, its about having a sensible prize structure which rewards everyone who does well, not just the person who does the best. And it is not GOMTV's responsibilty to pay pro gamers a living wage. I think this prize structure doesn't reward hard work correctly. Getting top8 is a pretty damn good achievement, and in interviews most pros don't even talk about wanting to win the whole thing, its about getting top8 or top4. It's atleast 1k till 2k participants. But you must remember that the majority of those players are low diamond scrubs trying to see if they could qualify. If you saw some ro64 matches you'd actually be embarassed that some of the top64 players are at that level. This is e-sports and their tourney what anyone thinks of the payout prize doesn't affect their payout structure. Have you heard any pro competing in the GSL complaining? Think about it from another perspective. If the 1st place got 50k which is about 35k less than it currently is then the person who got 1st place will be thinking: "Damn I only got 50k and not 85k". Those that lost might be thinking I wished I gotten more money from this achievement (ro64/32). Rewarding hard work is fair but think about it from another perspective again. They are not working to reach top16 or top8 or top4 for the matter. They are in the GSL to win the entire tourney no matter what they say. It's a competition and everyone wants to win. Having a huge prize pool whereas almost half of the money goes to the 1st place makes it even more sensible from that perspective. It's too bad if those progamers reached top16 or top8. It's about winning the entire event and not going as far as they can in the tourney no matter how hard they worked for it. This is a competition and only winning the tournament counts in my perspective and GomTV feels the same. It's like saying in every competetive sport that winning isn't everything only doing your best matters. Edit: On October 07 2010 02:16 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: making it to the round of 64 in GSL wasn't really that big an accomplishment. a lot of the players who qualified were total garbage even using our own NA top 200 as the standard. many bad players cheesed and all-in'd their way in, many good players got luckboxed out in a similar fashion. GSL ro64 qualification was very much a crapshoot, with only truly superior players able to guarantee themselves a berth. ratio of 85:25:8:8?! what? i think you used that incorrectly first place in this tournament was roughly 45% of the total prizepool, that's not a huge portion. the WSOP had THOUSANDS MORE ENTRIES and a ton more money on the table, much more easily divisible and the point of paying out lower placements is to give back the player's entry fee (nobody paid to enter GSL) plus a little change for their effort. you're taking interview comments out of context. progamers talk about their goal being ro4 or ro8 because they are modest and taught to concentrate on their immediate future, one series at a time. this is something that has been present in korean progamer interviews since the dawn of time, but EVERY SINGLE PLAYER aspires to win it all. there is absolutely no truth in saying they're 'satisfied with ro8' or 'realistically dont expect to win so are planning financially based on ro8 payouts'. progamers want to win the tournament, period. it's that desire that makes these tournaments possible in the first place, and a giant first-place prize keeps them coming back, not a piddly paycheck from the round of 32. they outta remove payment for the ro32 and ro64 and roll THAT into the top 16 This I agree with completely like I said above. They better remove the ro32/64 payouts and give it to the ro16 which is much and much more reasonable. If you have to compare it to WSOP then think about this: WSOP everyone pays a participation fee of $10k. Do all participants get payed? Only the top % will get payed and at GSL all participants of the main tourney gets payed which is ludicrous enough with a free qualifier. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36375 Posts
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Moosey
United States186 Posts
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bRuTaL!!
Finland588 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:30 Moosey wrote: I know that in larger prize pool events, it becomes customary in the finals to offer some form of split. I would be extremely surprised if FruitDealer didn't end up giving at least 10k to Rainbow. Maybe it's different for Korean culture, though. its customary between friends in poker, pretty much unheard of in BW beyond smaller foreigner tournaments | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36375 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:30 Moosey wrote: I know that in larger prize pool events, it becomes customary in the finals to offer some form of split. I would be extremely surprised if FruitDealer didn't end up giving at least 10k to Rainbow. Maybe it's different for Korean culture, though. Yeah the "difference" is 18 months in jail. | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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Sabyn
United States8 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:23 mucker wrote: Look at your own WSOP link. $10k buy in. Entries: 6494. Did you look at how far down the payout table goes? Only the top 10% get paid. You really want to compare that to the GSL? What's 10% of 64? Now look at your GSL payouts again. What was the entry fee for the GSL again? Is it your position that the GSL isn't attracting pros? You really think dropping the grand prize 30k and upping the round 8 and 16 1k is going to attract more? Well, compare the total number of players in the offline prelims and I'd say that the top 64 of the GSL is less than 10%, but again, I was using it as an example of the ratio of winnings for those who win money, not a ratio of those who enter and who receive money. And maybe my comparison was bad, I dunno, where the money comes from is completely different which means a lot. And I said before, I don't really care about that bracket. It is the 16, 8, 4 rounds that get screwed the most. I never said that what the GSL is doing isn't attracting pros. I've said over and over in this thread that what they are doing is a great PR tool, no getting around that. I am saying that to any serious contender to do well in the GSL the prize structure is more akin to a crap shoot than something that actually rewards consistent good/great play over multiple season. Entering the tournament is +infinite EV since it is free to enter, but no matter how good you are you can never say "I'm going to get first or second place" with any amount of confidence. Whereas if you are a great player you can count on getting in to a lot of ro32s and up. And yeah, the ro64 this season was really weak, but I don't think this trend will continue. I think it will only get more difficult to qualify as general skill increases and the GSL gets more exposure (thanks again to their great PR move of having a stupidly high first place prize) and the fact that it is the only real major Starleague caliber SC2 tournament in Korea at the moment. And note I never said to drop the first place prize to 30k, 50k 1st / 20k 2nd at the minimum. Though going a 60k first / 25k second is another good option. Both those have a very similar "big number appeal" and free up around 25-30k to distribute to the semifinalists, quaterfinalists and the rest of the top16. I guess I just don't see the point to such a huge difference between first and second outside of the "wow thats a lotta moola" factor. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Don't think anyone would argue cool was the most skilled player in the GSL. Not the case for your average poker tourney. | ||
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ironchef
Canada1350 Posts
Even if you decide to have a base compensation of some sort (say out of charity, or to grow the sport, or financial incentive to compete here as opposed to other leagues), imo the win bonus has to be disproportionately bigger in order to have the incentive/prestige of winning the event. Still going to be top heavy. I'm more concerned about if that can sustain that huge prizepool every month. But imagine someone achieves Flash-like dominance, 85k/month is pretty sweet haha. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On Octobe any racial balance. Sure theres build order losses more so for certainr 07 2010 02:46 Slayer91 wrote: Poker is a game where luck plays a significant factor for single events like a finals. In starcraft its almost exclusively skill if you don't try to argue matchups (TvT) but thats mind games as well. Don't think anyone would argue cool was the most skilled player in the GSL. Not the case for your average poker tourney. I disagree. This Starcraft2 tournament was at least as luck based as a Poker tourny, if not more so. | ||
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professorjoak
318 Posts
OSL/MSL are 50MW for 1st, 20MW for 2nd. I can't seem to find a citation for the prize pools for the lower ranks despite searching. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
more viewers are attracted by bigger prise pool, so sponsors get more views, so sponsors pay more. that is the difference between e sports and somthing like poker. poker is lots of rich poker players playing other rich poker players, you put up your own money and win someone elses. the viewerbase is relatively small (forgive e if this is totally wrong) and most of the prise pool comes from players buyins. at least in most tourneys. in e-sports, the money comes from sponsors who want viewers, more viewers = bigger sponsors = more players = bigger prise pools = more viewers. thats the cycle that esports needs to get big. anyway, if you want new players to enter the scene living purely off their gsl winnings then that would limit the number of pros in the world to ~32 players, as noone else would get enough money to live on. | ||
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Licmyobelisk
Philippines3682 Posts
I had this mentality once in a tournament that I said to myself hell yeah doesn't matter if I'm on third place I still go dough. | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On October 07 2010 02:46 Slayer91 wrote: Poker is a game where luck plays a significant factor for single events like a finals. In starcraft its almost exclusively skill if you don't try to argue any racial balance. Sure theres build order losses more so for certain matchups (TvT) but thats mind games as well. Don't think anyone would argue cool was the most skilled player in the GSL. Not the case for your average poker tourney. Actually every and any pro would wish tournaments were more top heavy. The extensive prize pools attract the bad players. in pokerz | ||
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