Now, I fully understand the hype of having such a large first place prize, they mention it in every single VOD of every game, but I can't help but think that it isn't the healthiest thing for the players looking to go pro. If the prizes are distributed to teams in a way kinda similar to how prizes worked in BW, then this is pretty much moot, but if not, then hear me out.
I played Magic: The Gathering competitively and tried hard to get on the gravy train (where you always get invites to Pro Tours, get money for attending, and in the two largest events, Pro Tours and Grand Prix the prizes were much more evenly distributed among the top 16, and even those in the top 32 got a few thousand). Now the structure is vastly different, but you can see similar thing in poker. Almost all tournaments have a much less top heavy prize pool, for example the WSOP: http://www.pokerpages.com/tournament/result24522.htm
Having the final game decide almost 50% of the total prize pool is just insane. It really hurts the "core" pro gamers, those who make consistent top 8s, 16s, and 32s. The ratio for first, second, and the 2 other semi finalists should be closer to 3-2-1-1. For example 55k for first, 30k for 2nd and 15k for the semi finalists. And this leads to still a huge prize for first and doesn't take anything away from the finals, it still makes it a 25k game, and allows a more reasonable payout to the top16/32. And in a tournament of this size getting top 32 is worth way more than a measly $430.
So maybe this structure was chosen to create hype? Is the money going to just the individuals or is it getting distrubted amongst teams/practice partners et cetera? I really don't know, but if it is a payout directly to the player the ratios really need to be tweaked as I can see this really hurting the tournament in the long run. Pro gamers aren't stupid, they don't enter and practice like hell for a 512 person tournament just to end up making it to the top 16 and getting $1700, they know their odds of getting first or second are incredibly small, while their chances at making a consistent showing in the rounds of 64, 32, and 16 are much more reasonable.
Am I alone in thinking this? Do people just have a general love of huge first place prizes even if it is against their best interest as competitive players? I would think all consistent, solid, good players would much rather receive a modest payout for putting up consistent showings.
While I agree, having a massive prize pool for first place is a surefire way of attracting attention of spectators (allowing the scene to develop and grow).
Would you be more interesting in watching a $40,000 game or an $80,000 game if you just heard about it casually (presume you hadn't really followed the proscene previously).
I'd have to agree with you. However, I wonder how much income pros receive from sponsorship deals. Also, I feel like only the top 10% of "pros" actually make enough money to live off playing. Unless sponsorships deal out huge amounts of money, how these pros support themselves with the $50-200 dollars that they will take home from a tournament?
No, not nearly heavy enough actually. I honestly don't think ro64 or ro32 should even get anything, but they do.
AFAIK most tournaments that have lower prize pools only pay out to top 4 places at best. Even bigger things like MLG only pay out to top8 and that's exactly how it should be.
I think it's a bit preposterous that you'd expect to be paid something significant for just placing into ro64. What it means is that bad people would cheese the shit out of qualifying rounds just to get to ro64 to get paid, which hurts the quality of games in the long run.
quite the opposite, first place prize level is really important for marketing a big event like this. their setup is definitely ideal. the question is, "too top heavy" for what? your arbitrary assessment of what's fair? why should people in the ro64 get paid more?
On October 07 2010 01:23 Quepp42 wrote: I'd have to agree with you. However, I wonder how much income pros receive from sponsorship deals. Also, I feel like only the top 10% of "pros" actually make enough money to live off playing. Unless sponsorships deal out huge amounts of money, how these pros support themselves with the $50-200 dollars that they will take home from a tournament?
Very true, that is another thing that would heavily factor in to this,
And yeah, STS17, it is definitely a great hype tool. Thats why I am kinda hoping they tune it down some for the later seasons once its more established, though they'd need some good PR spin to show that they are paying out more and not just cheaping out on the prize pool.
Also, an aside complaint, I really dislike how much Artosis and Tasteless talk about the first place prize so much. I am sure they are told to and all that, it just seems really tacky on GOMTV's behalf. The interesting thing to me is having badass players playing badass games and playing to the highest level. The money is just there as the motivator; seeing someone win 87k isn't what makes me want to watch the GSL, its the quality of the games (and I don't deny that the money involved, no matter how distributed, really adds to that).
On October 07 2010 01:31 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: quite the opposite, first place prize level is really important for marketing a big event like this. their setup is definitely ideal. the question is, "too top heavy" for what? your arbitrary assessment of what's fair? why should people in the ro64 get paid more?
I said time and again that I get their huge first place prize is a great PR tool. It is about rewarding people proportionally to how they performed. Getting to first is a great feat, no doubt, but getting to top 8 is also pretty damn impressive. I just don't think getting first place is 28 times as difficult as getting first. Of course the people who were eliminated in the ro64 should get a lot less than those in the top 4, but the difference in this GSL is just ludicrous.
On October 07 2010 01:30 Sadistx wrote: AFAIK most tournaments that have lower prize pools only pay out to top 4 places at best. Even bigger things like MLG only pay out to top8 and that's exactly how it should be.
The players that get to the Ro64 at least past through qualifiers, while MLG its about whoever buys the pass the fastest to get into 1st round.
On October 07 2010 01:23 Quepp42 wrote: I'd have to agree with you. However, I wonder how much income pros receive from sponsorship deals. Also, I feel like only the top 10% of "pros" actually make enough money to live off playing. Unless sponsorships deal out huge amounts of money, how these pros support themselves with the $50-200 dollars that they will take home from a tournament?
Very true, that is another thing that would heavily factor in to this,
And yeah, STS17, it is definitely a great hype tool. Thats why I am kinda hoping they tune it down some for the later seasons once its more established, though they'd need some good PR spin to show that they are paying out more and not just cheaping out on the prize pool.
Also, an aside complaint, I really dislike how much Artosis and Tasteless talk about the first place prize so much. I am sure they are told to and all that, it just seems really tacky on GOMTV's behalf. The interesting thing to me is having badass players playing badass games and playing to the highest level. The money is just there as the motivator; seeing someone win 87k isn't what makes me want to watch the GSL, its the quality of the games (and I don't deny that the money involved, no matter how distributed, really adds to that).
On October 07 2010 01:31 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: quite the opposite, first place prize level is really important for marketing a big event like this. their setup is definitely ideal. the question is, "too top heavy" for what? your arbitrary assessment of what's fair? why should people in the ro64 get paid more?
I said time and again that I get their huge first place prize is a great PR tool. It is about rewarding people proportionally to how they performed. Getting to first is a great feat, no doubt, but getting to top 8 is also pretty damn impressive. I just don't think getting first place is 28 times as difficult as getting first. Of course the people who were eliminated in the ro64 should get a lot less than those in the top 4, but the difference in this GSL is just ludicrous.
But if you get the best in the world playing each other, you're bound to have great games no matter how the prize pool is distributed. Just look at the individual leagues in BW.
Furthermore I think if GOM really cared about the lives of progamers they'd introduce a proleague team format with really long seasons. That way the pros would have consistent employment.
On October 07 2010 01:31 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: the question is, "too top heavy" for what? your arbitrary assessment of what's fair? why should people in the ro64 get paid more?
Too top heavy for the top 32/64 players to make enough money to support themselves
On October 07 2010 01:31 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: the question is, "too top heavy" for what? your arbitrary assessment of what's fair? why should people in the ro64 get paid more?
Too top heavy for the top 32/64 players to make enough money to support themselves
it is not the responsibility of the GSL to make sure people who only reach the top 32/64 are able to sustain themselves solely on their GSL winnings. what an asinine idea.
restructuring the GSL's prizepool to make sure underqualified players live slightly more comfortable is real high on GOM's list of 'dumb things we could do to ruin ourselves'
I think the problem that hes alluding to is that it discourages people from becoming pro-gamers and ultimately it can lead to lower quality games because the best players are logically going to play games where they have the highest opportunity cost in terms of winnings. If I'm at the crossroads that I assume a fair number of Koreans are at where they can try to become pro-gamers or go to a university or get some kind of job training, I would have to be relatively sure that I could make a decent living off of pro-graming. If the money is too top heavy and there are already a small group of players dominating that scene it just wouldn't be a great decision to try to break into it and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what we see unless we get more tournaments and just more large prize pools.
Do you really think players like July and Nada would be giving up multiyear BW contracts if the GSL didn't have a huge prize?
You don't attract top players with evenly spread payouts. Look at the top tournaments/races in individual sports... tennis, golf, auto racing, poker... all top heavy. It attracts the best participants and gets the most media attention. The media attention makes the tournament more attractive to sponsors and that is where teams and individuals get their money. You're not going to get much attention with some "everybody is a winner" payout structure. While it may be tough on teams and players in the short term GSL is doing this the right way to build a league for the long term.
On October 07 2010 01:51 proxY_ wrote: I think the problem that hes alluding to is that it discourages people from becoming pro-gamers and ultimately it can lead to lower quality games because the best players are logically going to play games where they have the highest opportunity cost in terms of winnings. If I'm at the crossroads that I assume a fair number of Koreans are at where they can try to become pro-gamers or go to a university or get some kind of job training, I would have to be relatively sure that I could make a decent living off of pro-graming. If the money is too top heavy and there are already a small group of players dominating that scene it just wouldn't be a great decision to try to break into it and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what we see unless we get more tournaments and just more large prize pools.
this is retarded too, you must not have noticed the hundreds of licensed BW progamers who have never had a TV appearance. the talent pool will not shrink and anyone who takes themselves and their game seriously will be practicing their heart out for that $85,000
I started a thread like this a while ago, but ya, without a proleague scene in SC2, it would be hard for players to get a regular income/teamhouse without major major sponsorships. i think as a business model, for GomTV to get the maximum amount of subscriptions via livstream/VOD's would be to have the maximum amount of foreigners participating.
I think it would be more likely for more foreigners to participate if the possible payout for the ro64 could possibly cover their travel expenses. More money in the low tier side, followed by linear increases the higher you get in the tournament until, say, the ro4 where the money gets real huge, would be better for the community scene in general.
i think what gsl aims to do (at least initially) is to attract the corporate sponsors and the fans. The way to do it is to attract the top players. The flash jaedongs bisus nada boxers are the one who will make the fans make the fans follow SC2 and by doing that they will attract the sponsors.
These players are of course looking at the top 4 prize pool and I think that is why they make the prize structure very "top heavy"
And considering how luck based the prelims are, i dont think the ro64 and 32 deserve a lot. In fact i think they already get more than enough considering some of them can be considered "lucky" to be there.
On October 07 2010 01:30 Sadistx wrote: No, not nearly heavy enough actually. I honestly don't think ro64 or ro32 should even get anything, but they do.
AFAIK most tournaments that have lower prize pools only pay out to top 4 places at best. Even bigger things like MLG only pay out to top8 and that's exactly how it should be.
I think it's a bit preposterous that you'd expect to be paid something significant for just placing into ro64. What it means is that bad people would cheese the shit out of qualifying rounds just to get to ro64 to get paid, which hurts the quality of games in the long run.
We are talking about a tournament with a free offline qualifier, which means at least a thousand entries on the low end (pulling that outa my ass, I looked and couldn't find any real numbers on how many entered the prelims). So top64 automatically puts you in the top 10% of the players.
Though after looking in to it the ro64 is determined by the prelims, so I am not sure if the ro64 people should be getting much (definitely something for getting a televised match though). It depends on how big the prelims are and how many rounds. My biggest gripe wast the top16, top8 and top4.
I mean have you guys looked at the payout ratios of larger tournaments like you see in poker? Check out the link I posted.
Furthermore I think if GOM really cared about the lives of progamers they'd introduce a proleague team format with really long seasons. That way the pros would have consistent employment.
I think they are doing something similar in having 12 tournaments a year, one a month with different formats. No idea what those formats are yet, but it does give players a big tournament every month, so thats something.
On October 07 2010 01:52 mucker wrote: Do you really think players like July and Nada would be giving up multiyear BW contracts if the GSL didn't have a huge prize?
You don't attract top players with evenly spread payouts. Look at the top tournaments/races in individual sports... tennis, golf, auto racing, poker... all top heavy. It attracts the best participants and gets the most media attention. The media attention makes the tournament more attractive to sponsors and that is where teams and individuals get their money. You're not going to get much attention with some "everybody is a winner" payout structure. While it may be tough on teams and players in the short term GSL is doing this the right way to build a league for the long term.
Again, look at my link to the 2009 WSOP. It is no where near as top heavy as the GSL. Having the ratio of 85:25:8:8 is nuts. And where do you get that I am proposing an "everybody is a winner payout structure"? I want to take 20-30k from first place and give it to the people who got in the top16. Or are those players in the top16 just scrubs who don't deserve anything?
And the way you attract pros is by throwing money at them. Those pros know that they won't be winning every event, hell, its likely they won't win a single one. But it is VERY likely that they can make quite a few ro16s, ro8s, and semi finals.
Its not about being all nice to the subpar pro gamers, its about having a sensible prize structure which rewards everyone who does well, not just the person who does the best. And it is not GOMTV's responsibilty to pay pro gamers a living wage. I think this prize structure doesn't reward hard work correctly. Getting top8 is a pretty damn good achievement, and in interviews most pros don't even talk about wanting to win the whole thing, its about getting top8 or top4.
I agree with the OP. The GSL prize structure right now looks like a gamble for first, not a way to sustain long term good-but-not-great performances. No chess player, for example, would agree to a match with conditions like these.
On October 07 2010 02:01 Sabyn wrote: We are talking about a tournament with a free offline qualifier, which means at least a thousand entries on the low end (pulling that outa my ass, I looked and couldn't find any real numbers on how many entered the prelims). So top64 automatically puts you in the top 10% of the players.
Though after looking in to it the ro64 is determined by the prelims, so I am not sure if the ro64 people should be getting much (definitely something for getting a televised match though). It depends on how big the prelims are and how many rounds. My biggest gripe wast the top16, top8 and top4.
I mean have you guys looked at the payout ratios of larger tournaments like you see in poker? Check out the link I posted.
making it to the round of 64 in GSL wasn't really that big an accomplishment. a lot of the players who qualified were total garbage even using our own NA top 200 as the standard. many bad players cheesed and all-in'd their way in, many good players got luckboxed out in a similar fashion. GSL ro64 qualification was very much a crapshoot, with only truly superior players able to guarantee themselves a berth.
Again, look at my link to the 2009 WSOP. It is no where near as top heavy as the GSL. Having the ratio of 85:25:8:8 is nuts. And where do you get that I am proposing an "everybody is a winner payout structure"? I want to take 20-30k from first place and give it to the people who got in the top16. Or are those players in the top16 just scrubs who don't deserve anything?
And the way you attract pros is by throwing money at them. Those pros know that they won't be winning every event, hell, its likely they won't win a single one. But it is VERY likely that they can make quite a few ro16s, ro8s, and semi finals.
Its not about being all nice to the subpar pro gamers, its about having a sensible prize structure which rewards everyone who does well, not just the person who does the best. And it is not GOMTV's responsibilty to pay pro gamers a living wage. I think this prize structure doesn't reward hard work correctly. Getting top8 is a pretty damn good achievement, and in interviews most pros don't even talk about wanting to win the whole thing, its about getting top8 or top4.
ratio of 85:25:8:8?! what? i think you used that incorrectly
first place in this tournament was roughly 45% of the total prizepool, that's not a huge portion. the WSOP had THOUSANDS MORE ENTRIES and a ton more money on the table, much more easily divisible and the point of paying out lower placements is to give back the player's entry fee (nobody paid to enter GSL) plus a little change for their effort.
you're taking interview comments out of context. progamers talk about their goal being ro4 or ro8 because they are modest and taught to concentrate on their immediate future, one series at a time. this is something that has been present in korean progamer interviews since the dawn of time, but EVERY SINGLE PLAYER aspires to win it all. there is absolutely no truth in saying they're 'satisfied with ro8' or 'realistically dont expect to win so are planning financially based on ro8 payouts'. progamers want to win the tournament, period. it's that desire that makes these tournaments possible in the first place, and a giant first-place prize keeps them coming back, not a piddly paycheck from the round of 32.
they outta remove payment for the ro32 and ro64 and roll THAT into the top 16
Not all the money goes to the winner some of it goes back to the team the biggest difference is that poker and magic the gather are single man tournaments. While starcraft it requires you to be on a team to stay at a top level.
On October 07 2010 01:52 mucker wrote: Do you really think players like July and Nada would be giving up multiyear BW contracts if the GSL didn't have a huge prize?
You don't attract top players with evenly spread payouts. Look at the top tournaments/races in individual sports... tennis, golf, auto racing, poker... all top heavy. It attracts the best participants and gets the most media attention. The media attention makes the tournament more attractive to sponsors and that is where teams and individuals get their money. You're not going to get much attention with some "everybody is a winner" payout structure. While it may be tough on teams and players in the short term GSL is doing this the right way to build a league for the long term.
Again, look at my link to the 2009 WSOP. It is no where near as top heavy as the GSL. Having the ratio of 85:25:8:8 is nuts. And where do you get that I am proposing an "everybody is a winner payout structure"? I want to take 20-30k from first place and give it to the people who got in the top16. Or are those players in the top16 just scrubs who don't deserve anything?
And the way you attract pros is by throwing money at them. Those pros know that they won't be winning every event, hell, its likely they won't win a single one. But it is VERY likely that they can make quite a few ro16s, ro8s, and semi finals.
Its not about being all nice to the subpar pro gamers, its about having a sensible prize structure which rewards everyone who does well, not just the person who does the best. And it is not GOMTV's responsibilty to pay pro gamers a living wage. I think this prize structure doesn't reward hard work correctly. Getting top8 is a pretty damn good achievement, and in interviews most pros don't even talk about wanting to win the whole thing, its about getting top8 or top4.
Look at your own WSOP link. $10k buy in. Entries: 6494. Did you look at how far down the payout table goes? Only the top 10% get paid. You really want to compare that to the GSL? What's 10% of 64? Now look at your GSL payouts again. What was the entry fee for the GSL again?
Is it your position that the GSL isn't attracting pros? You really think dropping the grand prize 30k and upping the round 8 and 16 1k is going to attract more?
On October 07 2010 01:30 Sadistx wrote: No, not nearly heavy enough actually. I honestly don't think ro64 or ro32 should even get anything, but they do.
AFAIK most tournaments that have lower prize pools only pay out to top 4 places at best. Even bigger things like MLG only pay out to top8 and that's exactly how it should be.
I think it's a bit preposterous that you'd expect to be paid something significant for just placing into ro64. What it means is that bad people would cheese the shit out of qualifying rounds just to get to ro64 to get paid, which hurts the quality of games in the long run.
We are talking about a tournament with a free offline qualifier, which means at least a thousand entries on the low end (pulling that outa my ass, I looked and couldn't find any real numbers on how many entered the prelims). So top64 automatically puts you in the top 10% of the players.
Though after looking in to it the ro64 is determined by the prelims, so I am not sure if the ro64 people should be getting much (definitely something for getting a televised match though). It depends on how big the prelims are and how many rounds. My biggest gripe wast the top16, top8 and top4.
I mean have you guys looked at the payout ratios of larger tournaments like you see in poker? Check out the link I posted.
Furthermore I think if GOM really cared about the lives of progamers they'd introduce a proleague team format with really long seasons. That way the pros would have consistent employment.
I think they are doing something similar in having 12 tournaments a year, one a month with different formats. No idea what those formats are yet, but it does give players a big tournament every month, so thats something.
On October 07 2010 01:52 mucker wrote: Do you really think players like July and Nada would be giving up multiyear BW contracts if the GSL didn't have a huge prize?
You don't attract top players with evenly spread payouts. Look at the top tournaments/races in individual sports... tennis, golf, auto racing, poker... all top heavy. It attracts the best participants and gets the most media attention. The media attention makes the tournament more attractive to sponsors and that is where teams and individuals get their money. You're not going to get much attention with some "everybody is a winner" payout structure. While it may be tough on teams and players in the short term GSL is doing this the right way to build a league for the long term.
Again, look at my link to the 2009 WSOP. It is no where near as top heavy as the GSL. Having the ratio of 85:25:8:8 is nuts. And where do you get that I am proposing an "everybody is a winner payout structure"? I want to take 20-30k from first place and give it to the people who got in the top16. Or are those players in the top16 just scrubs who don't deserve anything?
And the way you attract pros is by throwing money at them. Those pros know that they won't be winning every event, hell, its likely they won't win a single one. But it is VERY likely that they can make quite a few ro16s, ro8s, and semi finals.
Its not about being all nice to the subpar pro gamers, its about having a sensible prize structure which rewards everyone who does well, not just the person who does the best. And it is not GOMTV's responsibilty to pay pro gamers a living wage. I think this prize structure doesn't reward hard work correctly. Getting top8 is a pretty damn good achievement, and in interviews most pros don't even talk about wanting to win the whole thing, its about getting top8 or top4.
It's atleast 1k till 2k participants. But you must remember that the majority of those players are low diamond scrubs trying to see if they could qualify. If you saw some ro64 matches you'd actually be embarassed that some of the top64 players are at that level.
This is e-sports and their tourney what anyone thinks of the payout prize doesn't affect their payout structure. Have you heard any pro competing in the GSL complaining?
Think about it from another perspective. If the 1st place got 50k which is about 35k less than it currently is then the person who got 1st place will be thinking: "Damn I only got 50k and not 85k". Those that lost might be thinking I wished I gotten more money from this achievement (ro64/32).
Rewarding hard work is fair but think about it from another perspective again. They are not working to reach top16 or top8 or top4 for the matter. They are in the GSL to win the entire tourney no matter what they say. It's a competition and everyone wants to win. Having a huge prize pool whereas almost half of the money goes to the 1st place makes it even more sensible from that perspective. It's too bad if those progamers reached top16 or top8. It's about winning the entire event and not going as far as they can in the tourney no matter how hard they worked for it. This is a competition and only winning the tournament counts in my perspective and GomTV feels the same.
It's like saying in every competetive sport that winning isn't everything only doing your best matters.
On October 07 2010 02:01 Sabyn wrote: We are talking about a tournament with a free offline qualifier, which means at least a thousand entries on the low end (pulling that outa my ass, I looked and couldn't find any real numbers on how many entered the prelims). So top64 automatically puts you in the top 10% of the players.
Though after looking in to it the ro64 is determined by the prelims, so I am not sure if the ro64 people should be getting much (definitely something for getting a televised match though). It depends on how big the prelims are and how many rounds. My biggest gripe wast the top16, top8 and top4.
I mean have you guys looked at the payout ratios of larger tournaments like you see in poker? Check out the link I posted.
making it to the round of 64 in GSL wasn't really that big an accomplishment. a lot of the players who qualified were total garbage even using our own NA top 200 as the standard. many bad players cheesed and all-in'd their way in, many good players got luckboxed out in a similar fashion. GSL ro64 qualification was very much a crapshoot, with only truly superior players able to guarantee themselves a berth.
Again, look at my link to the 2009 WSOP. It is no where near as top heavy as the GSL. Having the ratio of 85:25:8:8 is nuts. And where do you get that I am proposing an "everybody is a winner payout structure"? I want to take 20-30k from first place and give it to the people who got in the top16. Or are those players in the top16 just scrubs who don't deserve anything?
And the way you attract pros is by throwing money at them. Those pros know that they won't be winning every event, hell, its likely they won't win a single one. But it is VERY likely that they can make quite a few ro16s, ro8s, and semi finals.
Its not about being all nice to the subpar pro gamers, its about having a sensible prize structure which rewards everyone who does well, not just the person who does the best. And it is not GOMTV's responsibilty to pay pro gamers a living wage. I think this prize structure doesn't reward hard work correctly. Getting top8 is a pretty damn good achievement, and in interviews most pros don't even talk about wanting to win the whole thing, its about getting top8 or top4.
ratio of 85:25:8:8?! what? i think you used that incorrectly
first place in this tournament was roughly 45% of the total prizepool, that's not a huge portion. the WSOP had THOUSANDS MORE ENTRIES and a ton more money on the table, much more easily divisible and the point of paying out lower placements is to give back the player's entry fee (nobody paid to enter GSL) plus a little change for their effort.
you're taking interview comments out of context. progamers talk about their goal being ro4 or ro8 because they are modest and taught to concentrate on their immediate future, one series at a time. this is something that has been present in korean progamer interviews since the dawn of time, but EVERY SINGLE PLAYER aspires to win it all. there is absolutely no truth in saying they're 'satisfied with ro8' or 'realistically dont expect to win so are planning financially based on ro8 payouts'. progamers want to win the tournament, period. it's that desire that makes these tournaments possible in the first place, and a giant first-place prize keeps them coming back, not a piddly paycheck from the round of 32.
they outta remove payment for the ro32 and ro64 and roll THAT into the top 16
This I agree with completely like I said above. They better remove the ro32/64 payouts and give it to the ro16 which is much and much more reasonable.
If you have to compare it to WSOP then think about this: WSOP everyone pays a participation fee of $10k. Do all participants get payed? Only the top % will get payed and at GSL all participants of the main tourney gets payed which is ludicrous enough with a free qualifier.
Just to echo what FS said, the huge difference between 1st and 2nd makes complete sense because the entire event builds up to one evening -- the finals. That is their spectacle and that is where they want their best games played.
I know that in larger prize pool events, it becomes customary in the finals to offer some form of split. I would be extremely surprised if FruitDealer didn't end up giving at least 10k to Rainbow. Maybe it's different for Korean culture, though.
In my opinion #1 price should be lowered to something like $60,000, keep #2 the same and then some how spread the extra $20,000 a bit more evenly. Thing is thought, 100 000 000 won looks cool. And this is mainly a Korean tournament after all so I dont think its going to change...
On October 07 2010 02:30 Moosey wrote: I know that in larger prize pool events, it becomes customary in the finals to offer some form of split. I would be extremely surprised if FruitDealer didn't end up giving at least 10k to Rainbow. Maybe it's different for Korean culture, though.
its customary between friends in poker, pretty much unheard of in BW beyond smaller foreigner tournaments
On October 07 2010 02:30 Moosey wrote: I know that in larger prize pool events, it becomes customary in the finals to offer some form of split. I would be extremely surprised if FruitDealer didn't end up giving at least 10k to Rainbow. Maybe it's different for Korean culture, though.
On October 07 2010 01:52 mucker wrote: Do you really think players like July and Nada would be giving up multiyear BW contracts if the GSL didn't have a huge prize?
You don't attract top players with evenly spread payouts. Look at the top tournaments/races in individual sports... tennis, golf, auto racing, poker... all top heavy. It attracts the best participants and gets the most media attention. The media attention makes the tournament more attractive to sponsors and that is where teams and individuals get their money. You're not going to get much attention with some "everybody is a winner" payout structure. While it may be tough on teams and players in the short term GSL is doing this the right way to build a league for the long term.
Again, look at my link to the 2009 WSOP. It is no where near as top heavy as the GSL. Having the ratio of 85:25:8:8 is nuts. And where do you get that I am proposing an "everybody is a winner payout structure"? I want to take 20-30k from first place and give it to the people who got in the top16. Or are those players in the top16 just scrubs who don't deserve anything?
And the way you attract pros is by throwing money at them. Those pros know that they won't be winning every event, hell, its likely they won't win a single one. But it is VERY likely that they can make quite a few ro16s, ro8s, and semi finals.
Its not about being all nice to the subpar pro gamers, its about having a sensible prize structure which rewards everyone who does well, not just the person who does the best. And it is not GOMTV's responsibilty to pay pro gamers a living wage. I think this prize structure doesn't reward hard work correctly. Getting top8 is a pretty damn good achievement, and in interviews most pros don't even talk about wanting to win the whole thing, its about getting top8 or top4.
Look at your own WSOP link. $10k buy in. Entries: 6494. Did you look at how far down the payout table goes? Only the top 10% get paid. You really want to compare that to the GSL? What's 10% of 64? Now look at your GSL payouts again. What was the entry fee for the GSL again?
Is it your position that the GSL isn't attracting pros? You really think dropping the grand prize 30k and upping the round 8 and 16 1k is going to attract more?
Well, compare the total number of players in the offline prelims and I'd say that the top 64 of the GSL is less than 10%, but again, I was using it as an example of the ratio of winnings for those who win money, not a ratio of those who enter and who receive money. And maybe my comparison was bad, I dunno, where the money comes from is completely different which means a lot. And I said before, I don't really care about that bracket. It is the 16, 8, 4 rounds that get screwed the most.
I never said that what the GSL is doing isn't attracting pros. I've said over and over in this thread that what they are doing is a great PR tool, no getting around that. I am saying that to any serious contender to do well in the GSL the prize structure is more akin to a crap shoot than something that actually rewards consistent good/great play over multiple season. Entering the tournament is +infinite EV since it is free to enter, but no matter how good you are you can never say "I'm going to get first or second place" with any amount of confidence. Whereas if you are a great player you can count on getting in to a lot of ro32s and up.
And yeah, the ro64 this season was really weak, but I don't think this trend will continue. I think it will only get more difficult to qualify as general skill increases and the GSL gets more exposure (thanks again to their great PR move of having a stupidly high first place prize) and the fact that it is the only real major Starleague caliber SC2 tournament in Korea at the moment.
And note I never said to drop the first place prize to 30k, 50k 1st / 20k 2nd at the minimum. Though going a 60k first / 25k second is another good option. Both those have a very similar "big number appeal" and free up around 25-30k to distribute to the semifinalists, quaterfinalists and the rest of the top16.
I guess I just don't see the point to such a huge difference between first and second outside of the "wow thats a lotta moola" factor.
Poker is a game where luck plays a significant factor for single events like a finals. In starcraft its almost exclusively skill if you don't try to argue any racial balance. Sure theres build order losses more so for certain matchups (TvT) but thats mind games as well.
Don't think anyone would argue cool was the most skilled player in the GSL. Not the case for your average poker tourney.
For an event, I think top heavy is fine (preferable even). Your points are valid, but I dont think it is the organizer's responsibility to financially support teams.
Even if you decide to have a base compensation of some sort (say out of charity, or to grow the sport, or financial incentive to compete here as opposed to other leagues), imo the win bonus has to be disproportionately bigger in order to have the incentive/prestige of winning the event. Still going to be top heavy.
I'm more concerned about if that can sustain that huge prizepool every month. But imagine someone achieves Flash-like dominance, 85k/month is pretty sweet haha.
On Octobe any racial balance. Sure theres build order losses more so for certainr 07 2010 02:46 Slayer91 wrote: Poker is a game where luck plays a significant factor for single events like a finals. In starcraft its almost exclusively skill if you don't try to argue matchups (TvT) but thats mind games as well.
Don't think anyone would argue cool was the most skilled player in the GSL. Not the case for your average poker tourney.
I disagree. This Starcraft2 tournament was at least as luck based as a Poker tourny, if not more so.
i think the main pronblem your idea is that it is based on the assumption that progamers will live off their gsl winnings. look at broodwar, how many players live off their osl/msl winnings? none. they all spend years in pro-team training houses before they even qualify for a starleague. the players get money from their sponsors, they live off this money. anything they get from tournaments is mainly a bonus.
more viewers are attracted by bigger prise pool, so sponsors get more views, so sponsors pay more. that is the difference between e sports and somthing like poker. poker is lots of rich poker players playing other rich poker players, you put up your own money and win someone elses. the viewerbase is relatively small (forgive e if this is totally wrong) and most of the prise pool comes from players buyins. at least in most tourneys.
in e-sports, the money comes from sponsors who want viewers, more viewers = bigger sponsors = more players = bigger prise pools = more viewers. thats the cycle that esports needs to get big.
anyway, if you want new players to enter the scene living purely off their gsl winnings then that would limit the number of pros in the world to ~32 players, as noone else would get enough money to live on.
Well, looks like FS put words in my mouth on this one... If the prize is like $ 80,000 for 1st prize then $ 70,000 for 2nd place then I wouldn't give a fuck about showing my best since I know for a fact that my opponent will be $ 10k richer than me.
I had this mentality once in a tournament that I said to myself hell yeah doesn't matter if I'm on third place I still go dough.
On October 07 2010 02:46 Slayer91 wrote: Poker is a game where luck plays a significant factor for single events like a finals. In starcraft its almost exclusively skill if you don't try to argue any racial balance. Sure theres build order losses more so for certain matchups (TvT) but thats mind games as well.
Don't think anyone would argue cool was the most skilled player in the GSL. Not the case for your average poker tourney.
Actually every and any pro would wish tournaments were more top heavy. The extensive prize pools attract the bad players. in pokerz
On October 07 2010 08:05 Licmyobelisk wrote: Well, looks like FS put words in my mouth on this one... If the prize is like $ 80,000 for 1st prize then $ 70,000 for 2nd place then I wouldn't give a fuck about showing my best since I know for a fact that my opponent will be $ 10k richer than me.
I had this mentality once in a tournament that I said to myself hell yeah doesn't matter if I'm on third place I still go dough.
people with that mentality rarely get in tournament finals tho unless they are already well accomplished and hence unmotivated.
On October 07 2010 02:11 Black Gun wrote: i agree with the OP, but i can also see the psychological effect of having the price for first place breaking the 100 millions...
Also you guys have to remember, just cause they are Korean doesn't mean they are professionals... Anyone can play GSL. If some half decent somebody beats a wana be somebody but isn't anybody, they should not receive any pay. The first few rounds are like a qualifier. Once the quarter-finals commence, that's when you get the real action between the 'pros' and 'up-and-coming pros'. Those are the ppl who need to support themselves. If they lose in the top 32 or 64, they either haven't practiced in a long ass time or they had some sort of huge problem.
IMO ro64, ro32, ro16 are used to weed out the noobs, and receive some small benefits. quarter finals, semi finals, and finals are the REAL tournament with the REAL pro players, and thus have the majority of the prize pool. Also, the reason 1st is so much higher than 7/8 is because the Quarter Finals are basically like the first round of the 'real' tournament (like I said). To pay huge amounts to someone who made it to the first round doesn't make sense. They are congratulated with enough money to pay rent, put food on the table, and pay for national travel expenses. Semi Finalists get more than double that cause they actually defeated a 'pro' player during the 'real' tournament. With that win, they are able to live for several months without work, giving them sufficient time to train extensively. The Runner-Up is basically labeled #2 player of Korea, and top 5 in the world. With such a prestigious title, they earn enough money to pay for nearly an entire years worth of pay. The winner of the whole thing gets spoiled just like the winner of any other professional sport, and they are allowed to not only support themselves for over a year, but also buy whatever they want, travel wherever they want, and do whatever they want. Thus are the spoils of being the #1 player in the world.
Hope this helps.. They make the tourny open to anyone and everyone, but they don't give away money to anyone and everyone. Only to the top players, since at this stage of the game, they are the only 'professional' caliber players.
Considering the nascent SC II pro-scene in Korea right now, they do need a big first place prize to draw attention and make it look like they're much bigger than some washed up Brood War tournament.
However, when you also consider there isn't much sponsorship coming in for SC II yet, at least not to the level of Brood War, tournaments earnings can still be a significant portion of players' income. While the allure of a huge 1st place payday will initially bring the players to the game, you have to spread the wealth a little to keep them interested and motivated over a longer period of time. On that, I think the prize money distribution for GSL is a little bit off, and could use some slight adjusting.
I don't know what the details should be, but something along the lines of a 2:1 prize split for 1st and 2nd like the OSL sounds like a good place to start.
First off the higher the stakes, the more driven you are to reach that goal. People always think of the best possible prize, for example people play the lotto to win the final prize, not a free-play. (k maybe that wasn't the best example lol). This will attract players
Secondly, all those 0's in the 100 000 000 KRW (or whatever it is, can't remember exactly) has a larger mental effect than anything without the 0's. For example, the reason why people mark prices as 4.99 instead of 5.00 is because 5.00 seems that much bigger.
This is off topic, but wow pro MTG sounds really interesting
I'm really interested to see what kind of decks these pros have, how the games play out, and how long the average game is. Is there a site where I can get something similar to 'replays'?
lol I've been playing a bit of Shandalar lately :p
The tournament being awfully top-heavy was my first thought when I saw money-distribution aswell. I just shrugged it off as a marketing trick for the first seasons and assumed they would redistribute it for later tournaments.
But it kinda depends on how you look at it, is it a 64-player tournament or is it much larger tournament that starts to air from the R64 and forward?
Also kinda unique case with GSL being the only SC2-tournament atm, kinda removing the need to attract the best SC2-players. What they need to do is attract top players to SC2, if you are a SC2 top player, you will be playing the GSL.
This mean that some of the most basic prize pool distribution guidelines might not apply, such as the bigger the prize pool the smaller the %-cut to the winner. That is one reason i think comparing it to poker tournaments aint a good idea.
There are so many different ways to look at this, some sports (Triathlon, mountanbiking, things like that i belive) seem to have a really different setup with the difference betwen 1st and 2nd place not being that big, and the difference between 1st and 8th being about 1 to 10.
The one thing is pretty clear is that the torunament is very top-heavy compared to pretty much any other tournament i can think of. If it is good or bad i dont really know, but having 50% of the total prize pool in a 64-player tournament go to the winner is pretty huge, and if you actually count it as tournament with thousands of participants (including the prelim that is) it is an absolutely mindblowingly huge slice to the winner.
Cant really see it as anything but a marketing trick to be honest, i think that once the scene is settled they will change the distribution.
Justifying the prize structure by saying they need this for attention is similar to forcing all casters into games in your open tournaments. In the sense that it will be better for your tournament but worse for the players. TL sacrifices viewer numbers and thus sponsor potential on a weekly basis to offer TL Open with the most optimal player conditions, but we had a lot of discussion about this internally so it's definitely something every tournament host needs to decide for themselves and give it a lot of thought.
These are interesting choices to make. I don't blame GSL because if they think this is the only way then in the long run it's more important that they continue to exist over offering better player conditions right now. If they die out after a year then nobody wins.
I'm not too happy to see a prizepool divided like this.
GSL is a preliminary tournament, not the main tournament. It's similar to "courage" in BW. It is supposed to be harsh to losers, so that it stimulates new people to take part, and replace them. Yes, I can see why this format may shy away many consistently good players, as they would prefer something more reliable and rewarding for their hard work. At the same time, it will likely get *everyone* to participate once, trying their luck, so that the organizers can later use the Ro64/32 records to fill in the upcoming more serious leagues.
Hype is a terrible reason why they should use an unnaturally top-heavy prize distribution. I hope they never do this again.
Instead of saying, "First place wins $85,000,"
they should be saying, "The GSL is giving out over $500,000 USD in prizes."
Not only does that negate the need for a top-heavy payout, but $85,000 sounds paltry compared to half a million. In terms of advertisement, the bigger number is always better.
Edit - Also, it's been observed in many other competitive gaming communities that when the lower players think they have a better shot at the money, there will be higher overall turnout (or participation). If only the Top 3 get paid, very few people will think they have a chance, which will in turn make them less likely to compete, which in turn makes the competitive scene less popular.
In addition there is something of a psychological effect about the round 100,000,000 won.
In East Asian countries influenced by Chinese culture (Korea and Japan that I know of), there are specific terms of numbers used every 10^4, not 10^3 in English. So that 100,000,000 looks more like a round 1,0000,0000 mentally I should say?
On October 08 2010 00:45 Ardek wrote: Also, it's been observed in many other competitive gaming communities that when the lower players think they have a better shot at the money, there will be higher overall turnout (or participation).
Turnout is not an issue for the GSL. Maximizing viewers and attracting top-level talent is. Giving more money to players below Ro8 is not going to entice Flash and Jaedong to play SC2.
first is more than three times second is a bit high, but in korean currency thats a massive figure to attract attention i suppose they couldnt afford to up the ante much more for the rest though, without breaking the bank since this tourney is monthly really if the top winners share with the teams your having your cake and eating it too
On October 07 2010 17:08 Shinta) wrote:The Runner-Up is basically labeled #2 player of Korea, and top 5 in the world.
this sentence alone shows your whole point is moot #2 in korea IS number 2 in the world
On October 09 2010 06:02 Cyber_Cheese wrote: first is more than three times second is a bit high, but in korean currency thats a massive figure to attract attention i suppose they couldnt afford to up the ante much more for the rest though, without breaking the bank since this tourney is monthly really if the top winners share with the teams your having your cake and eating it too
First the poker comparison is horrible since the prize pool is footed by the players and to be in the money you must win more than 10k. I don't see why the round of 64 should be rewarded at all given the inequality of certain groups in qualifying. Some people played 4 hard games others got 3 byes and a couple scrubs. And they have said they want monthly tournaments so prize money every month to be had as well as the small pickups doing online tournies can bring if you are consistently in to the second or third round that is a fair living in korea sans any sponsorship money.
Also im sure as bw fades away that will free up lots of sponsorship money to flow into the gsl's as well as player sponsorship which will increase both sides of earnings.
And finally 100M is a big number that they may have wanted to hit for promotional reasons and to show worldwide that they are much bigger than any other tournament. If the prize was much more spread out and around 40k or so some foriegners may have decided they don't wanna live 6000 miles away from friends and family and take their shots at the mlg's and iem's etc that pay out slightly less and are easier to win.
On October 07 2010 01:31 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: quite the opposite, first place prize level is really important for marketing a big event like this. their setup is definitely ideal. the question is, "too top heavy" for what? your arbitrary assessment of what's fair? why should people in the ro64 get paid more?
Because they have to spend sometimes THOUSANDS of dollars just to GET to the tournament?
It's quite discouraging for any "foreigners" to play when they have to make it to the round of 8 just to pay for their plane tickets.
rnd of 64 should cover traveling expenses and then a bit extra. When I hear the word "Proffessional" I think of someone doing a job for a living. How can you develop 'Pro-gaming' yet not get enough money out to the people playing to make is feasible. These prize amounts aren't even enough to make up for the minimum wages of a regular job in a developed country. Ro64 still needs something.
I feel that OP is kinda totally right IF GSL is the only thing that can get pro gamers solid incomming in korea ( or anywhere), in GSL2 we are already seeing insane players not making it into RO64, and even if they would make it, nobody outside of the "flash&jaedong of the moment" can make a living out of it.
There has already been an article that GOM TV stated they have no plans about a proleague-esque thing to do, and we probably all know that they have the exclusive rights to all sc2 related e-sports content in korea , and we have already learned that they don't like competitors in the airing and broadcasting.
So if there is no change to all this, 90 % of the best sc2 players, as smart ppl as they are just gonna be occasional players, and you expect ppl to watch it as much as they watched BW hardcore pro scene ? They maybe will, but i would never expect the skillceiling of sc2 scene to grow as much as it has in the bw scene.
Pro players, if they really gonna spend 12 hours a day ,6 days a week on perfecting their gameplay and be as awesome as we want them to be need more than what gomTV is providing.
I agree with the OP 100%. What it comes down to is making the lives of every pro more comfortable. The more each position pays out, the less each particular pro needs work 9-5 in order to support their gaming.
If more players are able to make a living off of playing Starcraft, then more players are able to justify going pro, and therefore the competition and skill level of each tournament increase as well as viewership. Instead of building from the bottom up like every other major sport (including BW, and other E-Sports such as quake), the GSL is building from the top down. The idea is that seeing a ton of money get awarded is exciting, thus causing more viewers to come watch based on the prizepool, and THEN causing the viewers to eventually decide that they want to compete as well.
Imo, the second way is much more volatile, because what happens when PlayerX gets eliminated in the ro32 and is unable to support himself/family? How is a random viewer going to justify to himself and those around him that he is going to gamble their livelihood on playing a game 14 hours a day in order to get good enough to catch, and pass other players who have been playing 12 hours a day based on prior huge winnings to support themselves? This kind of prizepool makes it really hard to sit down and commit to playing starcraft professional, and creates the risk of the whole thing just dying.
Instead of making a foundation to create a building on, they are gambling on just plopping the building on the ground and hoping that it will sustain itself. It is a huge gamble really, but it might end up working alright with all the ex-BW pros that are starting to switch over from BW to SCII. It is like they don't understand that they need to create a community, and just assumed that everyone would switch over from broodwar. I think it would be most effective if they held 100's of smaller tournaments with say ~10,000 KRW all over korea in order to create a korean interest, and make it easier to become a professional; by nature of it being easier to be pro, there would be more, and then you could create a huge tournament GSL style.
Because ultimately without players the whole scene just crumbles, it is much better to spread out the cashflow, imo.
On October 07 2010 02:30 Moosey wrote: I know that in larger prize pool events, it becomes customary in the finals to offer some form of split. I would be extremely surprised if FruitDealer didn't end up giving at least 10k to Rainbow. Maybe it's different for Korean culture, though.
its customary between friends in poker, pretty much unheard of in BW beyond smaller foreigner tournaments
In some interview FruitSeller said, that he lost some of his nervosity in view of the finals, after IntoTheRainbow told him, they should play for having fun. Whatever the meaning was . It would be cool though: "man let's share the money and enjoy the games". It's something of course you do only with someone you consider being on par with you.
On the OP: I guess it's their tournament [GOMTVs] so they have their thoughts about marketing and justice and act accordingly. The Tea Party Movement would call you a socialist Nevertheless I also thought the same: the price money for Ro64 and Ro32 it's too low compared to the price for the first, considering, that there is a high density of quality players in those rounds, and I dont agree with the "garbage in the Ro64"-talking from some of the posters above and for GSL 2 it would be even less so. Ask JulyZerg aka FantaPrime So I would regard a "better" distribution of the price money as something good. Maybe 500$ for Ro64, 1000 for Ro32, ... 50.000$ for the winner....
However, their money, their tournament. And FruitSeller, winning with Zerg? Man, he was worth it!
I agree with the OP about distribution, but generally I think too much is on the line in each tournament period.
Players would show up and play with similar fevor for 1/4 the prize pool. While it sounds cool saying "85k for 1st place," you put a finite shelf-life on your tournament cycle since clearly this isn't sustainable for EVERY month. Even if you only cut it in half, it would be a huge number still while doubling the amount of tournies you could hold.
I'm glad the GSL (plus the other tournies they are setting up like the championship) already has a great schedule through 2011 but I worry what happens after. I expect they will be able to get sponsors and such, assuming SC2 hasn't failed for whatever reason, but basically you've already set the bar SO HIGH that precedent is set and anything lower than these numbers will seem "not enough." This creates a potential problem for future tournaments, post-GSL.
On October 07 2010 02:30 Moosey wrote: I know that in larger prize pool events, it becomes customary in the finals to offer some form of split. I would be extremely surprised if FruitDealer didn't end up giving at least 10k to Rainbow. Maybe it's different for Korean culture, though.
its customary between friends in poker, pretty much unheard of in BW beyond smaller foreigner tournaments
In some interview FruitSeller said, that he lost some of his nervosity in view of the finals, after IntoTheRainbow told him, they should play for having fun. Whatever the meaning was . It would be cool though: "man let's share the money and enjoy the games". It's something of course you do only with someone you consider being on par with you.
On the OP: I guess it's their tournament [GOMTVs] so they have their thoughts about marketing and justice and act accordingly. The Tea Party Movement would call you a socialist Nevertheless I also thought the same: the price money for Ro64 and Ro32 it's too low compared to the price for the first, considering, that there is a high density of quality players in those rounds, and I dont agree with the "garbage in the Ro64"-talking from some of the posters above and for GSL 2 it would be even less so. Ask JulyZerg aka FantaPrime So I would regard a "better" distribution of the price money as something good. Maybe 500$ for Ro64, 1000 for Ro32, ... 50.000$ for the winner....
However, their money, their tournament. And FruitSeller, winning with Zerg? Man, he was worth it!
I dont think that 500 is reasonable for the first round of qualifiers at all. Honestly the qualification is more of the prize and i think they should win an actual tourny game before taking home a chunk of cash. Honestly some of the brackets right now for qualifiers are pretty filled with holes so being rewarded with 500 dollars for drawing an empty/bad bracket is nonsensical.
I think the real problem lies in the matter of fact that the korean esport-scene just consits of the GSL. I mean what is there besides Gisado ( no european pro would bother playing 10 1v1 for 5 bucks). What is lacking are small- to medium size tournaments like we have them in the western world (Zotac, Go4sc2 or 500 Euro invitationals). Because if you lose in Ro64 or even fail to qualify you are left with pretty much nothing for a month whereas in Europe you can make a decent living with a salary from your clan and prices, at least if you are one of the usual suspects that makes it far in cups and leagues. The thing is though that the cup system is much more forgiving. Losing in the second round of the Go4sc2 does not force yo to eat rice with beans or cup ramen for the rest of the month.
The 100,000,000 won is the reason, as already explained. But I agree that the lower brackets need a higher payout. Broodwar had/has the proleagues to offer consistent money to players who will never make it past a Ro36 in the OSL. With no proleague in SC2, this is one of the only avenues for serious money in SC2 (in Korea). If you can consistently make the Ro8 every GSL, then you can live off that. But few or none are gonna be able to do that. Without a proleague, there's no way you can make a living off of consistent Ro32 earnings. So you need rich parents/spouse or a real job which means less practice time. SC2 teams probably do not pay as much as BW proleaugue times.
So to keep that 100,000,000 won, I guess the best we can hope for is that in the future when the GSL is bringing in more sponsor money they can increase the prize pool for the lower brackets and keep #1 the same.
These first few are OPEN tournaments anyway. Maybe once they start seeding they will balance it more. Seeding should eliminate a bit of luck and thus a Ro32 in a seeded tourny is worthy of a far higher payout then a Ro32 in an OPEN where random player x got lucky preliminary matchups and beat another random player y in the Ro64 who had the same luck in the prelims.
But if the seeded tournies keep the same payout then somethings wrong.
Not for nothing, but assuming you hit the round of 16 in all the 12 monthly tournaments you're still pulling in $20k a year. Is it enough to get by on in Korea? Beats me. It's not bad though, especially considering that you're still able to participate in other tournaments and get sponsorships and the like.
I'm not familiar with the prize pool for other large tourneys, but $1,700 for getting top 16 seems pretty good if you're living in Korea already.
There are not gonna be 12 monthly tournaments. There will be 5 GSL's a year after these initial 3, with the other tournaments only being open to the best of the best. And getting Ro16 all 5 would be very hard. It's easier to imagine averaging around the Ro16 or slightly less.
So imagine in the 5 tournaments you got Ro32, Ro8, Ro32, Ro64, Ro16. That might be a realistic expectation for a very good, but not S class player considering luck and catching bad/good breaks. That would get you $6230. For most players that's probably too optimistic a hope, and they'll make way less.
You wouldn't make the World Championship with that, as you probably would not be top 4 Korean (foreigner might make it). Ladder tournament could get you some bucks, but who knows when you have 800 (4 regions?) competing to make a 16 man tourney. Blizzard Cup? Well, with your GSL results you likely would not be top 8. So unless you get lucky in a Ladder tournament, you are looking at $6230 plus whatever your team sponsors give you. And the overwhelming majority of players aren't gonna average much better than Ro32 which is only $2150 a year. And without a Proleague how much sponsorship can you get?
But if you took away some money from the #1 spot it would still be attractive but you'd be able to distribute that money in the lower brackets to encourage players to train more (work less) and get better, and give the viewers better games and thus increase viewers and sponsorship and the prize pool even more.
Stacking the #1 for advertisement is good in the short term, but think about: if the lower bracket people can make more money they can work less and practice more and thus get better and thus help the overall scene. Long term it's better to not stack it like this.
Ah, I must have misunderstood. For some reason I thought the plan was one a month!
I'm honestly not too terribly familiar with how pro gaming works financially, but if players are expected to make the majority of their money from one major league like the GSL, it seems like those lower numbers are going to have to bump up pretty significantly.
As a spectator though, the huge amount of money on the line does make things that much more exciting
I think WSoP is a terrible comparison, for all the above reasons already stated.
If they want to pay further down the ladder, they either need to charge an entry fee, or do something to significantly increase sponsorship.
Increased sponsorship will come from more visibility outside of these niche markets. While GSL visibility in Korea may be "huge" it's infinitesimally small outside of Korea and there's just not that much reason for most companies to contribute large sums of money to sponsor these events, since the value of that marketing effort is going to be reasonably small.
And BTW, the above desire to increase visibility is something that would be good for the Pro leagues.
There's lots of flaming and complaining when changes make it into the game that increase how accessible the game is to more average players, and at some levels, appear to remove the requirement of "skill" to win matches. (e.g. some of the recent flames saying the game shouldn't be balanced around plat and below "scrubs") However, those changes increase the SC2 audience and fan base, and will translate into bigger sponsorships and a healthier pro-gamer scene.
Can't have a healthy pro-gamer scene without mass-market appeal of the product, to continue to bring in bronze players who will watch ads, click on live streams, and tell their friends about how cool SC2 is. The salaries and prize-pools people want to see for pros requires tens of millions of dedicated world-wide fans, the overwhelming majority of whom will be bronze leaguers.
On October 07 2010 01:30 Sadistx wrote: No, not nearly heavy enough actually. I honestly don't think ro64 or ro32 should even get anything, but they do.
I think it's a bit preposterous that you'd expect to be paid something significant for just placing into ro64. What it means is that bad people would cheese the shit out of qualifying rounds just to get to ro64 to get paid, which hurts the quality of games in the long run.
Agreed. Although I think they should just give the money from ro64 to ro32, since once you get the seasons going and by having seeded players from previous seasons (which I thought they were gonna do) you eliminate the cheesers.
Tbh its only normal that they spread it like this... thats the thing to archieve this first place and the big payout the real pros got salarys from there sponsors and what not anyways.
man, keep it the way it is. the tourneys not supposed to be life support for the gamers, it's supposed to draw in a large audience. when i heard top prize was in the 800000s, i was like HOLY CHECK! it's all helping e-sports.
and geeze, be happy winning any type of money playing video games. you're basically living every guy's dream. i'm pretty sure none of the people in the gsl are complaining about the money they got. and if they don't like the way things are they can always go to the other...oh wait...gsl's the only tourney that gives away enormous amounts of money.
The problem isn't the prize pool, if pro-gamers are getting paid decently by their team then they should be fine with a top heavy prize pool. If they are getting really insufficient pay along with no help for living expenses/food, then this top heavy prize pool would be a problem. This isn't really the case anymore for esport in Korea with the way professional teams are set up now.
I think it should be this way: Ro64: $ 500 Ro32: $ 1500 Ro16: $ 3500 Ro8: $ 7500 Ro4: $15000 Runner Up: $25000 Winner: $50000
The total prize pool would still be pretty much the same as it currently is. This would make pro-gaming less of an all-in career choice as if you consistently play well you can make a living without even being a finalist. As it stands now to 'make a living' from it you pretty much have to either always make it to the Ro8... something that given cheeses and stuff that can happen in qualifying and early round, isn't doable even for who we see as the best players.
no, i don't think it's too top heavy. you shouldn't be entering these types of tournaments expecting to win enough to make a consistent salary, yet making it NOT top heavy is a bad way of trying to enforce just that. it's better to have a league if you want progamers to make a living off of their game, not to simply make prize pools even for anyone who gets in top #.
Making it so that if you reach Top8 or Top16 constantly opens the possibility to go pro is good for the sport, because more people are going to do it. More pro players higher average skill.
A big splashy first price is a good advertisement stunt but not good for the sport.
You are not the best if you win a big tournament, you are the best if you constantly deliver excellent results and a top heavy prize pool does not support that.
The hype of a big prize pool is so much better in the long run for progaming. More Hype = More Sponsors. More Sponsors eventually means bigger prize pools.
100 mil KRW attracts everyone when even Tester might just have a bad day and get eliminated in prelims. The skill cap hasn't been close to reached meaning just about everyone who makes it to Ro16 has a shot at the money. Just look how far LiveForever went in GSL1.
For the health of eSports as a whole, it may be best to spread the prize a little bit more. However, having a huge first-place prize is what's best for the GSL, and it will draw more top names and more sponsorship. The thing is, SC2 is not poker, it is still growing and attempting to be legitimized, which means it will need some spectacularity to get off the ground. I would not be surprised to see season 4's payout be slightly more even.
If a 'top pro player' plays GSL 10 times and never makes top 8, he's not a top pro player. For you to call any scene a 'professional' scene, you need to know that there will be a variety of professionals to compete. If nobody can compete with the top 4 players, then there isn't a professional scene, only 4 professional players. A professional is someone who gets paid to do what they do. 4 players getting all the money = 4 players playing professionally. If a foreigner wants to try to get to the professional level, they start with their foundations and work their way up. It's like a Taiwanese baseball player trying to get into the Japanese baseball league or a European trying to get into the USA's NBA. You make sacrifices and practice your heart out, and if at the end of the day you aren't good enough, then you aren't good enough. Go back to your home country and play in your own country's tournaments. The majority of Korea plays for fun, the players that play all day are the ones that are considered current top players. Just cause they are top players doesn't mean they are particularly 'professional' players just yet. The sc2 game hasn't developed enough to determine that kind of conclusion. The purpose of a big 1st place prize pool is to stimulate the WANT to be #1. If you're going to settle for #16 or #8 just cause you get a bit of money out of it, then you're not ever going to be good enough to become a professional. People wanting to get 1st place will train and become good. People who want to get 16th place won't get good. So think about it again, where should the prize go?
Once there are a ton of 'professional' players, meaning the #16 is beating the #1 and there is actually a very competitive scene, then I'm sure GomTV will be more interested in investing more money into the overall prize pool, and make a professional league out of it.
Another thing to think about is that if this prize pool payout will be the same for all the different types of tournaments that Gomtv will run during the year.
there's the four ladder tournaments, the 2 world championships, and the 8-man blizzard cup. I doubt they will all have the same type of format.
I also wonder if there will be ONLY 32 S-class players and 64ish A-class players at any one time. It might be interesting to see the dynamic of people moving up or down. It also makes for the need to have opportunities to re-qualify for A-class should you lose and drop out. As far as the GSL post, there is no mention of additional open-style tournaments like this. Seems like after these three, the best way for foreigners to participate would be to be in the ladder tournaments, where you might place high enough to get into the GSL. That might be the new "open" in 2011.
It's yet to be seen how effective these tournaments will be, but due to the sheer volume of players and number of events, it seems that the GSL would benefit from a offline semi-pro league with a chance to make it into the prelims of the GSL.
Either that, or i would love for one of the ladder tournaments to be replaced by another open tournament like these three inital ones.
Well, In other cases I'd say it is unfair that one or two winners makes it big while others just go home.
However, this isn't an issue about societal income distribution. It's a video game. If you're not the best, go home. The large prize pool is a great way to get people to bust their asses. Not every half-decent pro-gamer should b e getting money. It's a video-game for Heaven's sake. If you can't win then get a real job and be productive. Things like sports, games, and music should not have any sort of income security. Half the people I saw in GSL 1 performed so poorly I don't think they even deserved a penny.
A decent prizepool for top 16-32 would suffice. Everyone else underneath shouldn't really get anything, at least not much.
if anything, i think the jump from ro32 to ro16 is the awkward one. nothing wrong with a huge prize for first, having it as 100 million won is kind of cool
On October 12 2010 06:15 ThE_ShiZ wrote:. If you're not the best, go home. The large prize pool is a great way to get people to bust their asses. Not every half-decent pro-gamer should b e getting money. It's a video-game for Heaven's sake. If you can't win then get a real job and be productive. Things like sports, games, and music should not have any sort of income security.
i couldnt agree less. for the development of any video game as an esport, it is absolutely crucial that a limited amount of top gamers can focus on this game 24/7. this can only be achieved by income security. basically the only way to provide this is a sponsored teamleague, just like proleague in bw.
you would have to take into context the taxes of tournament winnings in South Korea. I know in some countries its much heavier than other countries, in Canada it is very bad, in the States it varies state by State, in Denmark they are particularly harsh on tournament winnings.
Denmark is well-known for having one of the most heavy-handed taxation codes of any country in the EU. Peter Eastgate who took down $9.1 million when he won the WSOP last November, was taxed at a 45% rate for the first $4 million he earned and at 75% for the remainder of the money, leaving the youngest WSOP champion ever with an estimated $2.5 million in prize money.
The Danish Supreme Court ruled that a 35 year old unemployed man who had been making a living as an online poker player, would have to be taxed as a "professional gambler", similar to the tax rate of Peter Eastgate. Over the past year, he allegedly earned around €26,000 from playing at several online poker sites.
so this is a huge question, are they actually making that much money? or are they making a substantially lesser amount than advertised?
I agree that the prize pool is not fairly distributed but then again, the event is every month. As long as high level players juggle between the top 8 places, they can make a very good salary per year.
I would like the top prize to be 75,000 instead, then the next being 30,000 then 10,000.
Think of the number of people who try to qualify for the GSL, compared to the number of people who try to qualify for WPT. Also remember Poker gets revenue from buy-ins, and from Poker sites.
Anyone that wants to make a comparison to the MtG proscene is forgetting one key factor - they have a product which you must pay for in order to compete. Release of new sets and a rotating list prohibited cards will ensure that people who are interested in competing professionally will continue to buy the goddamn cards. That's where the prize money is coming from, and that's why they can afford to have the kind of tournaments they do.
SC2 is a flat rate $60 for those of us in the US; in Korea WoW players get to play it for free. A substantial amount of money is more difficult to get when your business model is dependent on other people paying you for advertising as opposed to selling variants on the same product over and over again. A more equal distribution of prize money simply isn't feasible right now.
Lol Round of 32 wouldn't even pay for plane ticket to S. Korea. If you live very far from S. Korea then Round of 16 might not even pay for your plane ticket to S. Korea.
On October 07 2010 01:31 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: the question is, "too top heavy" for what? your arbitrary assessment of what's fair? why should people in the ro64 get paid more?
Too top heavy for the top 32/64 players to make enough money to support themselves
it is not the responsibility of the GSL to make sure people who only reach the top 32/64 are able to sustain themselves solely on their GSL winnings. what an asinine idea.
restructuring the GSL's prizepool to make sure underqualified players live slightly more comfortable is real high on GOM's list of 'dumb things we could do to ruin ourselves'
I think that is a very short sighted attitude. The more people that can support themselves with winnings the higher the level of play will become.
On October 12 2010 07:55 Benshin88 wrote: Lol Round of 32 wouldn't even pay for plane ticket to S. Korea. If you live very far from S. Korea then Round of 16 might not even pay for your plane ticket to S. Korea.
thats the biggest issue i have is i want the scene to go global for the biggest events, and in order to do that if your good enough to make round of 16 you should atleast make enough money to travel there, especially if they put global in the tournament name and then 90+ percent of the participants are from one country.
and besides the more people that can support themselves, gives them more time to practice and the level of play and competition will go up. also meaning that it will be more fun to watch for spectators.
I understand that such a large first place prize will cause a lot of hype for audiences, but I wonder if it will cause problems for the actual gamers...
I would think that most really good SC2 gamers- recognizing that they probably aren't the absolute best in the world at a game that's still in the early stages of development- would be more enticed by tournaments with decent level of payouts for the top 4-8 places, rather than just the top 2 places.
I assume that in the future, we'll see the payouts for the top 8 or so all get a little higher, so that more people figure it's worth their while to participate even if they know they won't win the entire GSL.
I would just like to discredit the theory that a big first place would motivate players. It doesn't (unless they're in the final obvious). If the same prizepool is more spread out it would attract many, many more motivated players who will consider SC to be a potential job.
On October 07 2010 01:51 proxY_ wrote: I think the problem that hes alluding to is that it discourages people from becoming pro-gamers and ultimately it can lead to lower quality games because the best players are logically going to play games where they have the highest opportunity cost in terms of winnings. If I'm at the crossroads that I assume a fair number of Koreans are at where they can try to become pro-gamers or go to a university or get some kind of job training, I would have to be relatively sure that I could make a decent living off of pro-graming. If the money is too top heavy and there are already a small group of players dominating that scene it just wouldn't be a great decision to try to break into it and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what we see unless we get more tournaments and just more large prize pools.
this is retarded too, you must not have noticed the hundreds of licensed BW progamers who have never had a TV appearance. the talent pool will not shrink and anyone who takes themselves and their game seriously will be practicing their heart out for that $85,000
This isn't an argument. You have no way of knowing what the talent pool would have been like if money was distributed more evenly in BW, just like we have no way of knowing what it would be like in SC2 if the prize money was distributed more evenly.
Top-heavy prize ratios are good at this stage in SC2's life, because, as everyone has mentioned, you can advertise a massive first place prize and attract a lot of spectator attention. But, if you look at pretty much every other well developed sport of any kind, you can make a living on it if you're one of the best 64 players in the world (which, at this point, is pretty much what GSL ro64 represents, barring issues like travel costs and such that overweight korean appearances there).
There is of course another point which is that if SC2 goes towards a televised team league like BW did, a lot more money will be coming in from sponsors and whatnot, which will likely be distributed more evenly and may fix the issue.
If that doesn't happen, however, and the majority of income for players comes from prize winnings, massively top-heavy prize pools like GSL's now will retard the development of the game, not accelerate it.
I think it made sense to put that huge first place prize out there to grab everybody's attention. It would problematic to reduce first place money now but as more money becomes available I'd like to see all the other brackets boosted up. Ideally RO64 would be about 2k. More than enough for a Korean to support himself for a month and enough for a non-Korean to pay for his trip.
I think it's too top heavy for sure. Especially if they are really having like 12 a year or whatever it is. The likelihood of being a repeat winner is so much lower than continually placing in say in the top 8. It would make it the lifestyle much more sustainable.
Could someone give a number of how spread out the money should be? Even if it was more spread out it is not enough to consider as a potential job unless you were semi-finalist and greater.
On October 12 2010 08:42 floor exercise wrote: I think it's too top heavy for sure. Especially if they are really having like 12 a year or whatever it is. The likelihood of being a repeat winner is so much lower than continually placing in say in the top 8. It would make it the lifestyle much more sustainable.
doesn't that counter your own argument? you're saying its more likely that there will be many different people winning each season rather than a few people repeating wins. so then in the long run the top heavy prize pool does in fact get distributed among the top 8 players.
I actually had no idea the prize set-up for GOM was so dumb, nice job bringing this up, OP.
If the first place prize dropped 20k, it would still be a ton of money, nobody plays for 80k and not for 60k. But if the Rd. of 64 prizes doubled or tripled, then that would make participation significantly more worthwhile, and would provide a stepping stone to players who could support themselves at the low levels, but for whom the higher levels would still be something to aspire towards.
On October 12 2010 08:34 ragingfungus wrote: I think we would see alot more foreigners with a more spread out prize pool.
This is also true. If you could finance your trip to Korea just by getting in the Rd. of 64, then you wouldn't have to worry so much about the risk you'd be taking with that trip.
On October 12 2010 08:45 mango_destroyer wrote: Could someone give a number of how spread out the money should be? Even if it was more spread out it is not enough to consider as a potential job unless you were semi-finalist and greater.
"should be?"? it's a matter of opinion. for comparison's sake here's an example of MLG Dallas' SC2 payout (128 players): + Show Spoiler +
i personally prefer big venue tournaments where first place matters a lot. a spread out prize pool might make sense for things like Poker tournaments where there is a lot of randomness and "luck" involved, but i think it's fair to have a top heavy payout for starcraft.
Unless you have sponsors putting out full income for teams, a lot of people considering a career in sc2 would be turned away.
Having such low pay for top 64 means that people cannot rely on it for income, and so it will never be anything more than an amateur league rather than true professional e-sports.
I mean, look at Tester. He got knocked out even though he is considered by many to be the best Protoss in the world. There are no certainties.
On October 12 2010 08:45 mango_destroyer wrote: Could someone give a number of how spread out the money should be? Even if it was more spread out it is not enough to consider as a potential job unless you were semi-finalist and greater.
Well, do keep in mind that players can get salaries or get paid through endorsements as well, so it's not necessarily the case that the *only* money that a SC player receives will be through the tournaments they win. That being said, in a ridiculously huge tournament (like the GSL), I would like it to be something like:
1st place: 40% of total prize pool 2nd: 20% 3rd: 10% 4th: 8% 5th: 6% 6th: 6% 7th: 5% 8th: 5%
(The bottom 4 could be staggered more; I didn't really put too much thought into those in particular.) I wanted to include prize money throughout the top 8, as an incentive to those who recognize that they probably won't *win it all*, but feel that they could get Top 8. I feel this would motivate many more players to play.
(On a sidenote, my last name is Mango so I *totally* take offense to your name!)
On October 12 2010 09:00 toadstool wrote: Unless you have sponsors putting out full income for teams, a lot of people considering a career in sc2 would be turned away.
Having such low pay for top 64 means that people cannot rely on it for income, and so it will never be anything more than an amateur league rather than true professional e-sports.
I mean, look at Tester. He got knocked out even though he is considered by many to be the best Protoss in the world. There are no certainties.
exactly. these are Open tournaments. there aren't even seeds yet. it's a bit premature to be asking to give better payouts and salaries to people who made the round of 32 when a lot of top players haven't even played yet.
On October 12 2010 09:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:That being said, in a ridiculously huge tournament (like the GSL), I would like it to be something like:
1st place: 40% of total prize pool 2nd: 20% 3rd: 10% 4th: 8% 5th: 6% 6th: 6% 7th: 5% 8th: 5%
(The bottom 4 could be staggered more; I didn't really put too much thought into those in particular.) I wanted to include prize money throughout the top 8, as an incentive to those who recognize that they probably won't *win it all*, but feel that they could get Top 8. I feel this would motivate many more players to play.
GSL is single elimination. there is no 3rd place match, let alone matches to differentiate 5-8. and your layout only pays out to the top 8 in a "ridiculously huge tournament"?
The real issue is whether there will be teams similar to BW proteams, which housed and fed players and thus allowed second tier A-teamers (with a meager salary) and B-teamers (with no salary) to devote themselves to progaming even without any tournament winnings to support themselves. Until such teams appear, prize pools like the GSL's will seem pretty harsh.
It should be noted that BW tournaments had prizes for the first and second places only -- 40 million and 20 million respectively, if I'm not mistaken.
On October 12 2010 08:42 floor exercise wrote: I think it's too top heavy for sure. Especially if they are really having like 12 a year or whatever it is. The likelihood of being a repeat winner is so much lower than continually placing in say in the top 8. It would make it the lifestyle much more sustainable.
doesn't that counter your own argument? you're saying its more likely that there will be many different people winning each season rather than a few people repeating wins. so then in the long run the top heavy prize pool does in fact get distributed among the top 8 players.
It kind of does just because of the way I poorly worded it, but if the prize pool was less top heavy it would ultimately benefit everyone barring one incredible sc2 bonjwa who is still going to do really well for himself.
There's just more chances for the consistently good players to make money to support themselves and for the random players who have a good run and finish high in a given season without feeling like they have to make it to the finals to justify their lifestyle
On October 12 2010 08:24 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I would just like to discredit the theory that a big first place would motivate players. It doesn't (unless they're in the final obvious). If the same prizepool is more spread out it would attract many, many more motivated players who will consider SC to be a potential job.
I agree with this. They should up the R064, R032 and potentially the R016 prizes aswell as the the increase the prize for second.
When I see the prizes for R064 and R032 as a foreigner I think "oh ok wow I pay X^5 to fly to Korea, etc and I lose in the R032 and only get X.. It is much less appealing $$ wise.
On October 12 2010 09:56 NuKedUFirst wrote: I agree with this. They should up the R064, R032 and potentially the R016 prizes aswell as the the increase the prize for second.
When I see the prizes for R064 and R032 as a foreigner I think "oh ok wow I pay X^5 to fly to Korea, etc and I lose in the R032 and only get X.. It is much less appealing $$ wise.
but on the other hand the RO64 and RO32 to some extent matches in GSL1 were awful to watch. i doubt any of the games played in the first round attracted any new subscribers for season tickets. why should they pay out more to players who earn them less?
and for a "foreigner" who doesn't think they'll advance past the RO32, something like MLG might be more appealing but anything outside of top 4 in that tournament barely covers travel expenses.
this isn't a gambling tournament. it's not like poker where the prize pool is covered by the entrants who are only there to try to win money. it's a unique opportunity to showcase skill and play against the best in the world. do you think Flash and Jaedong cared about the prize pool of WCG?
Is this not much different from the structure of current proteams in BW though? Afaik, only the people at the very top are making the money. Everyone else is close to minimum wage, if theyre paid at all.
Consider this, the GSL is held monthly, meaning if you were consistently a quarter-finalist, you'd be making 1700 a month. Which is certainly not poverty for the average korean.
I mean, I'm sure that in BW there was a larger amount of people making livable wages from gaming, but for a new game this is not bad.
I think comparing to other individual sports with an elimination format is probably a reasonable way to look at it, certainly Tennis seems a closer match to the GSL than Poker. Here's the prize money from the Australian Open singles:
On October 12 2010 10:33 Shakes wrote: I think comparing to other individual sports with an elimination format is probably a reasonable way to look at it, certainly Tennis seems a closer match to the GSL than Poker. Here's the prize money from the Australian Open singles:
I thought the same thing. Really? You practice 24/7, get a bad seed, and grats you made less than I did in a day's work?
I would also like to further say, if the only real money comes from first place, it makes it harder to actually earn a living off of it for pretty much everyone else. Even first place winners won't be making first place all the time. Which means fewer players bothering with the game or practicing less since they would need a "real" job to support themselves or rely on income elsewhere which would take time away. It would hard to call these players "professionals" when there main source of income is selling fruit.
And really who watched the GSL because of the prize pool?
On October 07 2010 01:30 Sadistx wrote: No, not nearly heavy enough actually. I honestly don't think ro64 or ro32 should even get anything, but they do.
AFAIK most tournaments that have lower prize pools only pay out to top 4 places at best. Even bigger things like MLG only pay out to top8 and that's exactly how it should be.
I think it's a bit preposterous that you'd expect to be paid something significant for just placing into ro64. What it means is that bad people would cheese the shit out of qualifying rounds just to get to ro64 to get paid, which hurts the quality of games in the long run.
In some random tournament, no. But this is the GSL where the prelims consist of thousands. Coming out in the top 64 is meaningful there.
On October 12 2010 09:56 NuKedUFirst wrote: I agree with this. They should up the R064, R032 and potentially the R016 prizes aswell as the the increase the prize for second.
When I see the prizes for R064 and R032 as a foreigner I think "oh ok wow I pay X^5 to fly to Korea, etc and I lose in the R032 and only get X.. It is much less appealing $$ wise.
but on the other hand the RO64 and RO32 to some extent matches in GSL1 were awful to watch. i doubt any of the games played in the first round attracted any new subscribers for season tickets. why should they pay out more to players who earn them less?
I think the argument here is that they will continue to be awful to watch unless players that consistently reach round 32 but not further can make enough money to make a living and thus dedicate the time needed to raise thier skill.
this isn't a gambling tournament. it's not like poker where the prize pool is covered by the entrants who are only there to try to win money. it's a unique opportunity to showcase skill and play against the best in the world. do you think Flash and Jaedong cared about the prize pool of WCG?
Not sure what you are arguing for here, first off the opportunity to showcase yourself still aint worth much to the vast majority of the players if that is not followed by beaing able to support yourself due to your skill. And if Flash or JD did not care that much about the prize pool why not even it out?
I would say that the argument that the biggest reason to play is to showcase yourself in order to attract sponsors actually works against your point of stacking the prize-pool for the winner. The winner and runner-up are thoose that can almost be guaranteed to attract said sponsors and secure income from other sources than prize money.
The players who consistently reaches R8-R32 but never quite go all the way will be more dependant on the income from prize money since most sponsors will flock to the biggest names.
On October 12 2010 10:33 Shakes wrote: I think comparing to other individual sports with an elimination format is probably a reasonable way to look at it, certainly Tennis seems a closer match to the GSL than Poker. Here's the prize money from the Australian Open singles:
Obviously the numbers are a lot bigger, but just looking at the ratios used it's a fair bit less top heavy than the GSL.
tennis is a whole other mess with "equal pay" for women when they play fewer sets. try to stay on topic.
Please explain why the equal pay policy invalidates the comparison? The Prize pool distribution would still reamain the same (same % of the total) even if this was not the case. The actual figures are not as interesting as how large a percentage of the total it is.
On October 12 2010 03:57 Reason.SC2 wrote: I think it should be this way: Ro64: $ 500 Ro32: $ 1500 Ro16: $ 3500 Ro8: $ 7500 Ro4: $15000 Runner Up: $25000 Winner: $50000
The total prize pool would still be pretty much the same as it currently is. This would make pro-gaming less of an all-in career choice as if you consistently play well you can make a living without even being a finalist. As it stands now to 'make a living' from it you pretty much have to either always make it to the Ro8... something that given cheeses and stuff that can happen in qualifying and early round, isn't doable even for who we see as the best players.
This looks like a fair ratio to me and would encourage more foreigners to participate.
I think the distribution is fine. You have to imagine the revenue of this is immense otherwise offering $85k prizes for first place several times over would be a huge waste(see: CGS). What better motivation to get better, if you're a foreigner and make ro32 you made your round trip flight ticket back(to the states) and change.
Like was said on the first page and I'm sure several times over, throwing 100,000,000 won(~$88k) on posters and spreading it is a sure way to get the attention of not just spectators, but potential broodwar pros. Flash won $44k beating Jaedong this last OSL. I'm no math major but for the amount of time they're putting in to make half of what sc2 winners are making should give anyone serious consideration to switch. Once you get the pros like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu et al swapping your marketability just shot through the roof.
On October 07 2010 01:30 Sadistx wrote: No, not nearly heavy enough actually. I honestly don't think ro64 or ro32 should even get anything, but they do.
AFAIK most tournaments that have lower prize pools only pay out to top 4 places at best. Even bigger things like MLG only pay out to top8 and that's exactly how it should be.
I think it's a bit preposterous that you'd expect to be paid something significant for just placing into ro64. What it means is that bad people would cheese the shit out of qualifying rounds just to get to ro64 to get paid, which hurts the quality of games in the long run.
well making it to ro64 out of thousands of players should get paid. its not like there are only 128 or 256 in the tournament. u have to win like 5+ games to get into ro64.
I think that Gretech will be changing the structure when the preseason ends. Right now, I think the singular focus is to show people that these are serious, big time/big money events so that the GSL gets large amounts of recognition. I think things will start to possibly change come the new year.
On October 07 2010 01:30 Sadistx wrote: No, not nearly heavy enough actually. I honestly don't think ro64 or ro32 should even get anything, but they do.
AFAIK most tournaments that have lower prize pools only pay out to top 4 places at best. Even bigger things like MLG only pay out to top8 and that's exactly how it should be.
I think it's a bit preposterous that you'd expect to be paid something significant for just placing into ro64. What it means is that bad people would cheese the shit out of qualifying rounds just to get to ro64 to get paid, which hurts the quality of games in the long run.
Well to even get to the ro64 is an epic feat so they surely deserve something.
On October 12 2010 03:57 Reason.SC2 wrote: I think it should be this way: Ro64: $ 500 Ro32: $ 1500 Ro16: $ 3500 Ro8: $ 7500 Ro4: $15000 Runner Up: $25000 Winner: $50000
The total prize pool would still be pretty much the same as it currently is. This would make pro-gaming less of an all-in career choice as if you consistently play well you can make a living without even being a finalist. As it stands now to 'make a living' from it you pretty much have to either always make it to the Ro8... something that given cheeses and stuff that can happen in qualifying and early round, isn't doable even for who we see as the best players.
This looks like a fair ratio to me and would encourage more foreigners to participate.
It's not fair in the least. Going from Ro64 to Ro32 triples the prize, whereas winning the finals only doubles the prize.
Imo the game would improve faster if the prize structure less top heavy so that more players could rely only on gaming to safely make a living. Stop worrying about getting money for basic shit = being able to focus solely on winning in awesome fashion!
On October 28 2010 10:40 skAnarky wrote: I think that Gretech will be changing the structure when the preseason ends. Right now, I think the singular focus is to show people that these are serious, big time/big money events so that the GSL gets large amounts of recognition. I think things will start to possibly change come the new year.
pretty much this, and it worked, i was blown away when i saw the prizepool, so was everyone else.
On October 28 2010 10:40 skAnarky wrote: I think that Gretech will be changing the structure when the preseason ends. Right now, I think the singular focus is to show people that these are serious, big time/big money events so that the GSL gets large amounts of recognition. I think things will start to possibly change come the new year.
Exactly how I'm looking at it.
These three GSL's are to get the BEST players going for number one, to get them placed for next year, which I'm sure will then spread the prizes more evenly so these players can attempt to make a living and not need to get 1st 2nd or 3rd at least once
EPT
. It would be cool though: "man let's share the money and enjoy the games". It's something of course you do only with someone you consider being on par with you.
So I would regard a "better" distribution of the price money as something good. Maybe 500$ for Ro64, 1000 for Ro32, ... 50.000$ for the winner....
