|
Ok, so here is the info I could find on the payout of the GSL:
Winner: 100,000,000 KRW (aprox. $85,700 USD)
Runner-Up: 30,000,000 KRW (aprox. $25,700 USD)
Semi-Finalists: 10,000,000 KRW (aprox. $8,600 USD)
Quarter-Finalists: 4,000,000 KRW (aprox. $3,400 USD)
Round of 16: 2,000,000 KRW (aprox. $1710 USD)
Round of 32: 500,000 KRW (aprox. $430 USD)
Round of 64: 300,000 KRW (aprox. $260 USD)
Now, I fully understand the hype of having such a large first place prize, they mention it in every single VOD of every game, but I can't help but think that it isn't the healthiest thing for the players looking to go pro. If the prizes are distributed to teams in a way kinda similar to how prizes worked in BW, then this is pretty much moot, but if not, then hear me out.
I played Magic: The Gathering competitively and tried hard to get on the gravy train (where you always get invites to Pro Tours, get money for attending, and in the two largest events, Pro Tours and Grand Prix the prizes were much more evenly distributed among the top 16, and even those in the top 32 got a few thousand). Now the structure is vastly different, but you can see similar thing in poker. Almost all tournaments have a much less top heavy prize pool, for example the WSOP: http://www.pokerpages.com/tournament/result24522.htm
Having the final game decide almost 50% of the total prize pool is just insane. It really hurts the "core" pro gamers, those who make consistent top 8s, 16s, and 32s. The ratio for first, second, and the 2 other semi finalists should be closer to 3-2-1-1. For example 55k for first, 30k for 2nd and 15k for the semi finalists. And this leads to still a huge prize for first and doesn't take anything away from the finals, it still makes it a 25k game, and allows a more reasonable payout to the top16/32. And in a tournament of this size getting top 32 is worth way more than a measly $430.
So maybe this structure was chosen to create hype? Is the money going to just the individuals or is it getting distrubted amongst teams/practice partners et cetera? I really don't know, but if it is a payout directly to the player the ratios really need to be tweaked as I can see this really hurting the tournament in the long run. Pro gamers aren't stupid, they don't enter and practice like hell for a 512 person tournament just to end up making it to the top 16 and getting $1700, they know their odds of getting first or second are incredibly small, while their chances at making a consistent showing in the rounds of 64, 32, and 16 are much more reasonable.
Am I alone in thinking this? Do people just have a general love of huge first place prizes even if it is against their best interest as competitive players? I would think all consistent, solid, good players would much rather receive a modest payout for putting up consistent showings.
|
While I agree, having a massive prize pool for first place is a surefire way of attracting attention of spectators (allowing the scene to develop and grow).
Would you be more interesting in watching a $40,000 game or an $80,000 game if you just heard about it casually (presume you hadn't really followed the proscene previously).
|
I'd have to agree with you. However, I wonder how much income pros receive from sponsorship deals. Also, I feel like only the top 10% of "pros" actually make enough money to live off playing. Unless sponsorships deal out huge amounts of money, how these pros support themselves with the $50-200 dollars that they will take home from a tournament?
|
I think it would be better if it were more spread out.
|
No, not nearly heavy enough actually. I honestly don't think ro64 or ro32 should even get anything, but they do.
AFAIK most tournaments that have lower prize pools only pay out to top 4 places at best. Even bigger things like MLG only pay out to top8 and that's exactly how it should be.
I think it's a bit preposterous that you'd expect to be paid something significant for just placing into ro64.
What it means is that bad people would cheese the shit out of qualifying rounds just to get to ro64 to get paid, which hurts the quality of games in the long run.
|
Valhalla18444 Posts
quite the opposite, first place prize level is really important for marketing a big event like this. their setup is definitely ideal. the question is, "too top heavy" for what? your arbitrary assessment of what's fair? why should people in the ro64 get paid more?
|
On October 07 2010 01:23 Quepp42 wrote:
I'd have to agree with you. However, I wonder how much income pros receive from sponsorship deals. Also, I feel like only the top 10% of "pros" actually make enough money to live off playing. Unless sponsorships deal out huge amounts of money, how these pros support themselves with the $50-200 dollars that they will take home from a tournament?
Very true, that is another thing that would heavily factor in to this,
And yeah, STS17, it is definitely a great hype tool. Thats why I am kinda hoping they tune it down some for the later seasons once its more established, though they'd need some good PR spin to show that they are paying out more and not just cheaping out on the prize pool.
Also, an aside complaint, I really dislike how much Artosis and Tasteless talk about the first place prize so much. I am sure they are told to and all that, it just seems really tacky on GOMTV's behalf. The interesting thing to me is having badass players playing badass games and playing to the highest level. The money is just there as the motivator; seeing someone win 87k isn't what makes me want to watch the GSL, its the quality of the games (and I don't deny that the money involved, no matter how distributed, really adds to that).
On October 07 2010 01:31 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
quite the opposite, first place prize level is really important for marketing a big event like this. their setup is definitely ideal. the question is, "too top heavy" for what? your arbitrary assessment of what's fair? why should people in the ro64 get paid more?
I said time and again that I get their huge first place prize is a great PR tool. It is about rewarding people proportionally to how they performed. Getting to first is a great feat, no doubt, but getting to top 8 is also pretty damn impressive. I just don't think getting first place is 28 times as difficult as getting first. Of course the people who were eliminated in the ro64 should get a lot less than those in the top 4, but the difference in this GSL is just ludicrous.
|
On October 07 2010 01:30 Sadistx wrote:
AFAIK most tournaments that have lower prize pools only pay out to top 4 places at best. Even bigger things like MLG only pay out to top8 and that's exactly how it should be.
The players that get to the Ro64 at least past through qualifiers, while MLG its about whoever buys the pass the fastest to get into 1st round.
|
On October 07 2010 01:32 Sabyn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 01:23 Quepp42 wrote:
I'd have to agree with you. However, I wonder how much income pros receive from sponsorship deals. Also, I feel like only the top 10% of "pros" actually make enough money to live off playing. Unless sponsorships deal out huge amounts of money, how these pros support themselves with the $50-200 dollars that they will take home from a tournament? Very true, that is another thing that would heavily factor in to this, And yeah, STS17, it is definitely a great hype tool. Thats why I am kinda hoping they tune it down some for the later seasons once its more established, though they'd need some good PR spin to show that they are paying out more and not just cheaping out on the prize pool. Also, an aside complaint, I really dislike how much Artosis and Tasteless talk about the first place prize so much. I am sure they are told to and all that, it just seems really tacky on GOMTV's behalf. The interesting thing to me is having badass players playing badass games and playing to the highest level. The money is just there as the motivator; seeing someone win 87k isn't what makes me want to watch the GSL, its the quality of the games (and I don't deny that the money involved, no matter how distributed, really adds to that). Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 01:31 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
quite the opposite, first place prize level is really important for marketing a big event like this. their setup is definitely ideal. the question is, "too top heavy" for what? your arbitrary assessment of what's fair? why should people in the ro64 get paid more? I said time and again that I get their huge first place prize is a great PR tool. It is about rewarding people proportionally to how they performed. Getting to first is a great feat, no doubt, but getting to top 8 is also pretty damn impressive. I just don't think getting first place is 28 times as difficult as getting first. Of course the people who were eliminated in the ro64 should get a lot less than those in the top 4, but the difference in this GSL is just ludicrous.
But if you get the best in the world playing each other, you're bound to have great games no matter how the prize pool is distributed. Just look at the individual leagues in BW.
Furthermore I think if GOM really cared about the lives of progamers they'd introduce a proleague team format with really long seasons. That way the pros would have consistent employment.
|
I agree. 3x times difference between 1st and second is too much.
|
On October 07 2010 01:31 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
the question is, "too top heavy" for what? your arbitrary assessment of what's fair? why should people in the ro64 get paid more?
Too top heavy for the top 32/64 players to make enough money to support themselves
|
Valhalla18444 Posts
On October 07 2010 01:46 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 01:31 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
the question is, "too top heavy" for what? your arbitrary assessment of what's fair? why should people in the ro64 get paid more? Too top heavy for the top 32/64 players to make enough money to support themselves
it is not the responsibility of the GSL to make sure people who only reach the top 32/64 are able to sustain themselves solely on their GSL winnings. what an asinine idea.
restructuring the GSL's prizepool to make sure underqualified players live slightly more comfortable is real high on GOM's list of 'dumb things we could do to ruin ourselves'
|
I think the problem that hes alluding to is that it discourages people from becoming pro-gamers and ultimately it can lead to lower quality games because the best players are logically going to play games where they have the highest opportunity cost in terms of winnings. If I'm at the crossroads that I assume a fair number of Koreans are at where they can try to become pro-gamers or go to a university or get some kind of job training, I would have to be relatively sure that I could make a decent living off of pro-graming. If the money is too top heavy and there are already a small group of players dominating that scene it just wouldn't be a great decision to try to break into it and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what we see unless we get more tournaments and just more large prize pools.
|
Do you really think players like July and Nada would be giving up multiyear BW contracts if the GSL didn't have a huge prize?
You don't attract top players with evenly spread payouts. Look at the top tournaments/races in individual sports... tennis, golf, auto racing, poker... all top heavy. It attracts the best participants and gets the most media attention. The media attention makes the tournament more attractive to sponsors and that is where teams and individuals get their money. You're not going to get much attention with some "everybody is a winner" payout structure. While it may be tough on teams and players in the short term GSL is doing this the right way to build a league for the long term.
|
Valhalla18444 Posts
On October 07 2010 01:51 proxY_ wrote:
I think the problem that hes alluding to is that it discourages people from becoming pro-gamers and ultimately it can lead to lower quality games because the best players are logically going to play games where they have the highest opportunity cost in terms of winnings. If I'm at the crossroads that I assume a fair number of Koreans are at where they can try to become pro-gamers or go to a university or get some kind of job training, I would have to be relatively sure that I could make a decent living off of pro-graming. If the money is too top heavy and there are already a small group of players dominating that scene it just wouldn't be a great decision to try to break into it and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what we see unless we get more tournaments and just more large prize pools.
this is retarded too, you must not have noticed the hundreds of licensed BW progamers who have never had a TV appearance. the talent pool will not shrink and anyone who takes themselves and their game seriously will be practicing their heart out for that $85,000
|
I started a thread like this a while ago, but ya, without a proleague scene in SC2, it would be hard for players to get a regular income/teamhouse without major major sponsorships. i think as a business model, for GomTV to get the maximum amount of subscriptions via livstream/VOD's would be to have the maximum amount of foreigners participating.
I think it would be more likely for more foreigners to participate if the possible payout for the ro64 could possibly cover their travel expenses. More money in the low tier side, followed by linear increases the higher you get in the tournament until, say, the ro4 where the money gets real huge, would be better for the community scene in general.
|
i think what gsl aims to do (at least initially) is to attract the corporate sponsors and the fans. The way to do it is to attract the top players. The flash jaedongs bisus nada boxers are the one who will make the fans make the fans follow SC2 and by doing that they will attract the sponsors.
These players are of course looking at the top 4 prize pool and I think that is why they make the prize structure very "top heavy"
And considering how luck based the prelims are, i dont think the ro64 and 32 deserve a lot. In fact i think they already get more than enough considering some of them can be considered "lucky" to be there.
i say the current system is ideal.
|
On October 07 2010 01:30 Sadistx wrote:
No, not nearly heavy enough actually. I honestly don't think ro64 or ro32 should even get anything, but they do.
AFAIK most tournaments that have lower prize pools only pay out to top 4 places at best. Even bigger things like MLG only pay out to top8 and that's exactly how it should be.
I think it's a bit preposterous that you'd expect to be paid something significant for just placing into ro64.
What it means is that bad people would cheese the shit out of qualifying rounds just to get to ro64 to get paid, which hurts the quality of games in the long run.
We are talking about a tournament with a free offline qualifier, which means at least a thousand entries on the low end (pulling that outa my ass, I looked and couldn't find any real numbers on how many entered the prelims). So top64 automatically puts you in the top 10% of the players.
Though after looking in to it the ro64 is determined by the prelims, so I am not sure if the ro64 people should be getting much (definitely something for getting a televised match though). It depends on how big the prelims are and how many rounds. My biggest gripe wast the top16, top8 and top4.
I mean have you guys looked at the payout ratios of larger tournaments like you see in poker? Check out the link I posted.
Furthermore I think if GOM really cared about the lives of progamers they'd introduce a proleague team format with really long seasons. That way the pros would have consistent employment.
I think they are doing something similar in having 12 tournaments a year, one a month with different formats. No idea what those formats are yet, but it does give players a big tournament every month, so thats something.
On October 07 2010 01:52 mucker wrote:
Do you really think players like July and Nada would be giving up multiyear BW contracts if the GSL didn't have a huge prize?
You don't attract top players with evenly spread payouts. Look at the top tournaments/races in individual sports... tennis, golf, auto racing, poker... all top heavy. It attracts the best participants and gets the most media attention. The media attention makes the tournament more attractive to sponsors and that is where teams and individuals get their money. You're not going to get much attention with some "everybody is a winner" payout structure. While it may be tough on teams and players in the short term GSL is doing this the right way to build a league for the long term.
Again, look at my link to the 2009 WSOP. It is no where near as top heavy as the GSL. Having the ratio of 85:25:8:8 is nuts. And where do you get that I am proposing an "everybody is a winner payout structure"? I want to take 20-30k from first place and give it to the people who got in the top16. Or are those players in the top16 just scrubs who don't deserve anything?
And the way you attract pros is by throwing money at them. Those pros know that they won't be winning every event, hell, its likely they won't win a single one. But it is VERY likely that they can make quite a few ro16s, ro8s, and semi finals.
Its not about being all nice to the subpar pro gamers, its about having a sensible prize structure which rewards everyone who does well, not just the person who does the best. And it is not GOMTV's responsibilty to pay pro gamers a living wage. I think this prize structure doesn't reward hard work correctly. Getting top8 is a pretty damn good achievement, and in interviews most pros don't even talk about wanting to win the whole thing, its about getting top8 or top4.
|
100,000,000 KRW is HUGE
That's the point.
Fakesteve is 100% right, they're doing it cos they're smart.
Smack 100,000,000 on all the posters and it hypes it up massively.
|
i agree with the OP, but i can also see the psychological effect of having the price for first place breaking the 100 millions...
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
