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On September 02 2010 09:30 No_Roo wrote:This announcement and thread have left such a bitter taste in my mouth I'll be hard pressed to even want to watch the re-streams. It's already been mentioned in this thread but the manipulation device in play here is obviously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_techniqueGretech is being disingenuous at best, and I can't even describe how angry it has made me.
Does that technique really work? Video gamers in general are very easy to offend when it comes to all things money. I can imagine so many people being put off already by the announced price that they would simply refuse to pay anything at all in the future.
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On September 02 2010 09:30 No_Roo wrote:This announcement and thread have left such a bitter taste in my mouth I'll be hard pressed to even want to watch the re-streams. It's already been mentioned in this thread but the manipulation device in play here is obviously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_techniqueGretech is being disingenuous at best, and I can't even describe how angry it has made me.
I disagree. GOM has already said that they must charge this amount, or there will be no stream at all. Especially a few days before the event, I don't think that they can just change their policy. I think we will just have to live with this pricing method for at least the first tournament.
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On September 02 2010 09:38 pencilcase wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 09:30 No_Roo wrote:This announcement and thread have left such a bitter taste in my mouth I'll be hard pressed to even want to watch the re-streams. It's already been mentioned in this thread but the manipulation device in play here is obviously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_techniqueGretech is being disingenuous at best, and I can't even describe how angry it has made me. I disagree. GOM has already said that they must charge this amount, or there will be no stream at all. Especially a few days before the event, I don't think that they can just change their policy. I think we will just have to live with this pricing method for at least the first tournament.
so explain me how IEM was casted for free and they didn't got poor ?
explain me how GSL will lose money due to a free streaming that will be filled with adds with an audience of more than 5K viewers ?
There was a tournament in beta that had 24K viewers on livestream or ustream.
If you know how publicity works i'm sure you will understand why Intel should pay tons of money for 200K add views per month so I don't understand why they charge that HUGE ammount of money to have a Stream...
If they have 20K people watching the stream each month and each of us see an intel add 20 times during 1 month (and i'm sure we will see even more than that) then there you go, 200k views.
And i'm sure that there will be more than 20K people watching the stream each season/month.
is ridiculous and it makes no sense to say that THEY MUST CHARGE or they will not be able to cast games.
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On September 02 2010 09:38 pencilcase wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 09:30 No_Roo wrote:This announcement and thread have left such a bitter taste in my mouth I'll be hard pressed to even want to watch the re-streams. It's already been mentioned in this thread but the manipulation device in play here is obviously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_techniqueGretech is being disingenuous at best, and I can't even describe how angry it has made me. I disagree. GOM has already said that they must charge this amount, or there will be no stream at all. Especially a few days before the event, I don't think that they can just change their policy. I think we will just have to live with this pricing method for at least the first tournament.
WTF, GOM said they would charge people yesterday. How does that equate to always?
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The question still remains... is someone going to restream them? I still want to watch the tournament, I just don't have money to pay for it.
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On September 02 2010 09:45 Drakan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 09:38 pencilcase wrote:On September 02 2010 09:30 No_Roo wrote:This announcement and thread have left such a bitter taste in my mouth I'll be hard pressed to even want to watch the re-streams. It's already been mentioned in this thread but the manipulation device in play here is obviously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_techniqueGretech is being disingenuous at best, and I can't even describe how angry it has made me. I disagree. GOM has already said that they must charge this amount, or there will be no stream at all. Especially a few days before the event, I don't think that they can just change their policy. I think we will just have to live with this pricing method for at least the first tournament. so explain me how IEM was casted for free and they didn't got poor ? explain me how GSL will lose money due to a free streaming that will be filled with adds with an audience of more than 5K viewers ? There was a tournament in beta that had 24K viewers on livestream or ustream. If you know how publicity works i'm sure you will understand that Intel should pay tons of money for 200K viewers per month so I don't understand why they charge that HUGE ammount of money to have a Stream... is ridiculous and it makes no sense to say that THEY MUST CHARGE or they will lose money.
Oh, don't misunderstand. There is no question that GOM has blundered considerably with regards to their streaming policy. But my point was that they dug a hole so deep that they can't get out now. The reason that IEM and MLG had free streams were because they used Octoshape, which is similar to bittorent and eats up a large share of each viewer's bandwidth. Because of that, the streaming costs for those organizations were probably negligible. On the other hand, GOM uses GOMTV player, which is a proprietary program that is streamed directly from them. This program has a long history of being unstable for foreigners, and it requires GOM to make significant investments into their own infrastructure. This is probably what the large costs that were in the e-mail referred to.
Would it have been better for GOM to provide a free Octoshape stream? Undoubtedly. But for whatever reason, be it ignorance or corporate policy, they are developing and using their own software instead of using another one. And because of that, there is no way for them to turn heel in 3 days and suddenly switch to a new streaming method. So that was my point about them not being able to renege on this pricing scheme.
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On September 02 2010 09:37 alexanderzero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 09:30 No_Roo wrote:This announcement and thread have left such a bitter taste in my mouth I'll be hard pressed to even want to watch the re-streams. It's already been mentioned in this thread but the manipulation device in play here is obviously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_techniqueGretech is being disingenuous at best, and I can't even describe how angry it has made me. Does that technique really work? Video gamers in general are very easy to offend when it comes to all things money. I can imagine so many people being put off already by the announced price that they would simply refuse to pay anything at all in the future.
hehe it reminds me of Maquiavelo.
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uStream is free to the streamer as well. Or you can pay a premium and get an ad free version with your own branding and such. There are plenty of alternatives they could do very cheap for even a low quality stream.
GOMTV is being greedy. There really isn't much else to it.
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On September 02 2010 09:52 pencilcase wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 09:45 Drakan wrote:On September 02 2010 09:38 pencilcase wrote:On September 02 2010 09:30 No_Roo wrote:This announcement and thread have left such a bitter taste in my mouth I'll be hard pressed to even want to watch the re-streams. It's already been mentioned in this thread but the manipulation device in play here is obviously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_techniqueGretech is being disingenuous at best, and I can't even describe how angry it has made me. I disagree. GOM has already said that they must charge this amount, or there will be no stream at all. Especially a few days before the event, I don't think that they can just change their policy. I think we will just have to live with this pricing method for at least the first tournament. so explain me how IEM was casted for free and they didn't got poor ? explain me how GSL will lose money due to a free streaming that will be filled with adds with an audience of more than 5K viewers ? There was a tournament in beta that had 24K viewers on livestream or ustream. If you know how publicity works i'm sure you will understand that Intel should pay tons of money for 200K viewers per month so I don't understand why they charge that HUGE ammount of money to have a Stream... is ridiculous and it makes no sense to say that THEY MUST CHARGE or they will lose money. Oh, don't misunderstand. There is no question that GOM has blundered considerably with regards to their streaming policy. But my point was that they dug a hole so deep that they can't get out now. The reason that IEM and MLG had free streams were because they used Octoshape, which is similar to bittorent and eats up a large share of each viewer's bandwidth. Because of that, the streaming costs for those organizations were probably negligible. On the other hand, GOM uses GOMTV player, which is a proprietary program that is streamed directly from them. This program has a long history of being unstable for foreigners, and it requires GOM to make significant investments into their own infrastructure. This is probably what the large costs that were in the e-mail referred to. Would it have been better for GOM to provide a free Octoshape stream? Undoubtedly. But for whatever reason, be it ignorance or corporate policy, they are developing and using their own software instead of using another one. And because of that, there is no way for them to turn heel in 3 days and suddenly switch to a new streaming method. So that was my point about them not being able to renege on this pricing scheme.
Oh, that made it very clear and I understand the difficulty to put octoshape in 3 days, or to change anything in such a short time.
I really hope they get new ideas to solve the problem
- making an alliance with ustream or livestream (since those are proved to work with large audiences)
- install octoshape for the next tournament
- imagination & creativity required :D.
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I do think it will take some decades (not years) so esports will be anything closer to a tenis, football or ufc ...
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I just cant believe its not viable to get sponsors through commercials because the viewers are spread "world wide". That doesnt really matter. Im pretty sure 90% of the people interested in viewing this are: Males, age 16-28, interested in computers, they are gamers, they speak/understand english, etc etc. The demographic is there for them, and it shouldnt be too hard to get commercials directed at the target audience. Even though the total viewer base wont be the highest, you will get alot more "hits" with the commercials.
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On September 02 2010 09:37 alexanderzero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 09:30 No_Roo wrote:This announcement and thread have left such a bitter taste in my mouth I'll be hard pressed to even want to watch the re-streams. It's already been mentioned in this thread but the manipulation device in play here is obviously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_techniqueGretech is being disingenuous at best, and I can't even describe how angry it has made me. Does that technique really work? Video gamers in general are very easy to offend when it comes to all things money. I can imagine so many people being put off already by the announced price that they would simply refuse to pay anything at all in the future.
Of course this technique works. It's ridiculous. Why wouldn't we all jump at the opportunity to pay $5 or $10 dollars for something that is originally valued at double that price? Many people would jump at the chance, and maybe that's what they're banking on.
A friend and I were talking about how if it were $5 access for the streams, we'd definitely be more willing. That in and of itself is telling. Never have either of us had to pay for a stream before to watch a game, low quality or otherwise. We're so willing to compromise, in part because we're huge starcraft nerds, that we would jump at a lower price point.
But at this point, it's either free for me, or it's nothing. I can download VODs, watch restreams, what have you. I can't justify paying any amount of money for something that really should be free. They can try to attach value to it, and I'm sure it'll be great, but why pay? Sure you can argue that it'll support eSports, etc, etc, but I think that's more or less been proven that you don't need to charge people to have a successful event.
And to throw salt in our wounds and sand in our eyes, not everyone is held to the same standard. Koreans get the stream absolutely free? wha--? Really. That's absurd. So not only do I have to wait up till 4am and pay $20 (or $30 to view whenever I want.. woo), but other people are getting the same service free of charge.
I think the only way to combat this is to not pay at all. It must be proven that we are not willing to pay for a stream, no matter what. Be it $5, $20, $100. If we allow them to charge us now, it won't stop them from charging us in the future.
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I don't believe charging for streams and/or VODs is in the best interest of E-sports. It may be in the best interest of the involved party's wallets however. Y'know how other sports get big? Availability. If you stream it, they will come and they'll keep coming. You can't take something with limited demand outside a certain region (read: Korea), charge for it, and expect it to grow big like that.
I sincerely hope GOM backs off on their current terms.
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So basically what I see here is that Gom is going to provide the first Starcraft 2 tournament ever that costs money to watch.
Not sure how that's gonna work out.
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On September 02 2010 10:07 damon2400 wrote:
So basically what I see here is that Gom is going to provide the first Starcraft 2 tournament ever that costs money to watch.
Not sure how that's gonna work out.
The amount of money is even more disgusting.
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GomTV better fold. It may seem very optimistic of me, but plenty of pressure has sometimes managed to have astounding effect on the greedy corporations. At minimum if not many are stupid enough to dish out the $50 they should have wizened up enough to change it by second season.
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They will only be hurting themselves if they do not change their plans. If not even the most committed fans will pay (us), there is no hope for them attracting new casual viewers and growing the scene.
I am sure people which have spare cash will be purchasing this round of tickets, but over time they will be hard pressed to sustain or improve viewer numbers with no new viewers willing to spend $20-50 to try out the stream, when there is plenty of casual viewing available for free (ESL IEM, MLG, youtube vods, casual streams etc)
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noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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On September 02 2010 10:04 Rider wrote:
I don't believe charging for streams and/or VODs is in the best interest of E-sports. It may be in the best interest of the involved party's wallets however. Y'know how other sports get big? Availability. If you stream it, they will come and they'll keep coming. You can't take something with limited demand outside a certain region (read: Korea), charge for it, and expect it to grow big like that.
I sincerely hope GOM backs off on their current terms.
They actually would make much more profit if it cost something like 5 dollars
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$50 is a lot of money. Comparing to for example spotify which is $10 per month this is much more expensive and most would argue spotify is a product that brings more value.
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EPT
