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On June 02 2010 07:00 Zelniq wrote:
not only are you completely out of line for assuming he disconnected on purpose, which he did not, but you're also wrong that he would have lost that game. go ahead and test it out, his 16 pool would have defended that just fine because of the long desert oasis rush distance. that and the fact that overlords always get there in time to see a fast pool is why dimaga opts to try for FE (he was moving drone, but sent back when he saw zerglings pop)
yea, i confirm this. in fact dimaga most likely had that game won, worst case scenario hed end up something like 11 drones vs cool's 6.
the reality of the situation is that dc hurt dimaga more then it helped.
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On June 02 2010 09:44 rich_kane wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 06:47 ChickenLips wrote:On June 02 2010 06:22 Sfydjklm wrote:On June 02 2010 06:12 ChickenLips wrote:On June 02 2010 02:29 Three wrote:
I dont understand why cool didn't play the 6 vs 16 pool again if he thought it was "win 100%" even when scouted on desert oasis... Getting your build scouted isnt nearly as bad as your opponent knowing that you are about to play that build. what good is knowing that if u cant make adjustmenets? He can make some minor adjustments and he can mentally prepare for the incoming zerglings. I rooted for Dimaga for the entire tourney but that instant dc right upon seeing the zerglings was just pure cheating in my opinion. I really hated that move, he should've just tried to fend it off as good as possible and if Cool won, then he deserves the title. What f*cking bad sportmanship. Yeah yeah, he had some connection problems before but those don't say anything at all, he could've prepared for his "joker-disconnect", of course it can't be proven that it was intentional, but in my opinion it could not have been more obvious. If it hadn't been the set game, I think the referee would (should!) have given Cool the win. Dimaga is known for doing shady stuff to improve his results and that d/c was just ... blerghh. Dimaga didn't dc because of the 7 pool, he might have been able to survive with his drones, he pulled the plug because he accidentaly canceled his spawning pool which makes me hate him, anyone can make a mistake just say gg and take it. However Dimaga decided to dc and be a jerk, I wanted him to win so europe could win the chinese tourny however the moment he DCed and basicaly cheated because he made a mistake he became the biggest loser and most despised player in sc2.
fuck you
dont make assumptions like that. there have been series in this very tournament where more games crashed and disconnected than actually finished. battle.net is terrible right now, dimaga's connection isnt perfect to begin with. utterly retarded to accuse someone of intentional disc in those circumstances.
i didnt see the game, it was really 6 pool vs 16 pool on desert oasis? thats a build win for dimaga, the 16 pool, not the other way around.
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On June 02 2010 08:56 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 08:21 rhap wrote:
It's awesome how people try to take away the bright of DIMAGA's games by saying he disconnected by purpose. I've seen DIMAGA lagging in many games and tourneys, even matches he was winning. Last weekend he was lagging against Satiini in ZOTAC final, but he just wanted to end the games fast due to that and went for all-in strats. It's obvious he's got internet problem sometimes.
What I found more funny than DIMAGA's disconnect was the fact that Cool had to try a cheese strat twice. That's what I call of "fear of your opponent".
Show me some quotes of people saying he disconnected on purpose? Maybe I missed them but I don't see such claims. At most people keep the possibility open which is fine though probably not the case. Please stop posting such non-sense. What I find funny is that you call something designed to beat his opponent cheese instead of a smart move. Once you get a feel for your opponents builds and you open with something designed to beat what you think he will do, that's strategically a great play and not something you should downgrade so easily and put it aside under the calling of fear of your opponent. I'm tired of repeating this in every topic. It goes for my series against Gerrard as well I've seen people discredit his wins by calling them cheese whereas all his strategies were tailor made to beat mine. It's a ridiculous attitude. If anything I found his early pool on Steppes a great move it definitely caught Dimaga off guard.
It was a direct responde to what Bane said about "people's minds" (not exactly to Bane, but to what he said), not to mention the guy above said it was, in his opinion, "pure cheating".
On June 02 2010 08:10 Bane_ wrote:
It wasn't just him thinking that Zelniq. Right when it happened you could tell that is exactly what was on peoples' minds; here in this thread, in Forsti's irc channel and even the way Forsti was talking in the stream. I've not seen the Chinese coverage yet but I can imagine there was a similar "wtf!" moment.
About the 7 pool, it's cheese imo, and yes, most cheeses are smart moves and requires lots of timing. Maybe it's cultural, but here, in Brazil, most people don't like that. We like to see who's the best without using strats that are abusive or auto-win in most cases and 6~7 pool is one of those. I'm not taking Cool's credit away, I know how great that guy is, but I'd rather see games where he tried to outmicro or outmacro his opponent instead of going all-in with a strat that gives him a free win or, in the worst case scenario, a lose. It's pretty bad for the viewers. Idk if you got my point, but I repeat: I'm not taking Cool's credit away, he deserved the first place.
idrA, I believe it was a 7 pool vs 15 pool. I'm almost sure DIMAGA had 15 of food when he sent his drone to the exp, but then turned back and started to build a pool.
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Dimaga had been going for a hatchery at 16 supply when he spotted Cool's lings and he turned the drone around and grabbed his spawning pool right away. Cool had done a 7 pool, building 1 more drone while the pool was morphing and then around the time it completed he sent 2 drones towards Dimaga's base to make offensive spine crawlers like he did in their 2nd match.
As far as I can make out there would be a ~15 second window during which Cool would have his lings in Dimaga's base prior to Dimaga's own lings spawning. Long enough to do considerable damage but perhaps not enough to make up for the fact that he had 10 drones less with which to mine.
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I would still say that was a DC not just because it was Dimaga, I don't judge people on prior actions just on what has been seen that game. Anyone who just had 8 zerglings and 2 drones in their base before getting a pool would have been screwed.
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On June 02 2010 10:31 rich_kane wrote:
I would still say that was a DC not just because it was Dimaga, I don't judge people on prior actions just on what has been seen that game. Anyone who just had 8 zerglings and 2 drones in their base before getting a pool would have been screwed.
By that logic you would have to think all dc's are on purpose in games where one player has a decent/big advantage. Yeah, no bias here... And the zerglings just left cools base when he disconnected, so I don't know where your last sentence comes from.
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Not quite, the logic states that anyone who is screwed and the second they know it disconnects, then yes I would asume thats on purpose.
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so pretty much every zerg with any sort of qualifications confirms that dimaga had advantage before getting disconnected. why still carry on with ur copper league nonsense?
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They didn't even see the game, there is no way that 16 drones is at an advantage against 8 lings and 2 drones concidering the 16 drones don't have a pool even started.
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On June 02 2010 10:44 rich_kane wrote:
Not quite, the logic states that anyone who is screwed and the second they know it disconnects, then yes I would asume thats on purpose.
That's bullshit logic. So I guess he faked the bad lag he had shortly before the disconnect also? Care to comment on idra's post earlier on this page where he basically said he was not screwed what so ever? I guess you are one of those people that call people hackers when they happen to anticipate your moves in a game.
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On June 02 2010 10:48 rich_kane wrote:
They didn't even see the game, there is no way that 16 drones is at an advantage against 8 lings and 2 drones concidering the 16 drones don't have a pool even started.
yea.. who to believe... idra or rich_kane....
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gz sheep, no longer lowering myself. Try watching the game and comming to conclusions instead of asuming other peoples are fact when they havn't even seen the game and are asuming based on build (which isn't even the build that was played)
User was banned for this post.
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So maybe that is why Cool didn't want to do the same build orders - but if a 7 pool can't beat a late 15 pool (as I understand it Dimaga was originally going 15 hatch and so had extra minerals saved up before he started the pool) , what can it beat? I have to assume that Cool would have tried that build on this map before and wouldn't use it if it didn't counter *anything*.
Kinda surprised no one has tested it yet, actually.
The question of who really had the advantage is way more interesting to me than whether or not Dimaga intentionally DCed or not. I mean, one of the reasons many tourneys have autoloss for DCs is because it is impossible to know if a disc was intentional. If it really was a situation in which he was guaranteed to lose, he should get a loss whether the disc is intentional or not.
edit: Since there seems to be disagreement about what the builds exactly were, is there a replay available for the game yet?
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It was definitely a pool at 16 (not instantly either as there was the delay due to him planning to get a hatchery first so he was at 300 minerals not 200) since the second he started building it his supply dropped to 15/18.
Edit - I realise it is odd to say that but the vod quality isn't fantastic so the 6 looks an awful lot like the 5.
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Ok, watched the VOD. The pool is at 16, and delayed. I am really curious about what the results of this game would be if it had been played out. My own hunch, despite far better players saying otherwise, is that it would have been a win for cool. I would be interested in trying this out on B.net later if someone wants to help. I'm bad, but we should still get an idea what it would have been like. PM me if interested, I'm on the US server.
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On June 02 2010 10:53 rich_kane wrote:
gz sheep, no longer lowering myself. Try watching the game and comming to conclusions instead of asuming other peoples are fact when they havn't even seen the game and are asuming based on build (which isn't even the build that was played)
lowering yourself? You aren't qualified to pass your opinion on that matter. You have your leeway up to the point where qualified people come in and tell you you're wrong. Now, shush.
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On June 02 2010 10:53 rich_kane wrote:
gz sheep, no longer lowering myself. Try watching the game and comming to conclusions instead of asuming other peoples are fact when they havn't even seen the game and are asuming based on build (which isn't even the build that was played)
Yeah, because you are just setting the bar so high here...
Apparently the tournament refs disagree with you since they did call a rematch. Stop acting like it was a clear call.
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On June 02 2010 11:22 HCastorp wrote:
Ok, watched the VOD. The pool is at 16, and delayed. I am really curious about what the results of this game would be if it had been played out. My own hunch, despite far better players saying otherwise, is that it would have been a win for cool. I would be interested in trying this out on B.net later if someone wants to help. I'm bad, but we should still get an idea what it would have been like. PM me if interested, I'm on the US server.
so you think you have the micro of cool and somebody whos gonna test it with you has the micro of diamga?
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also while u pass ur superficial copper league judgements on dimaga, consider the qustionable WO loss dimaga got in his GO4SC2 monthly final vs lucifer. Lesson learned, you know. Cant put it in the hands of the judges(artosis vs slush anyone?)
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Well, if it is close, the question would obviously remain unresolved for that very reason. Perhaps you and someone else more skilled would like to try? It seems to me that knowing who would win, or whether it is close or not, in this situation would be a useful thing to know. I'm not trying to use this as a stick to beat Dimaga with, I'm genuinely curious.
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EPT
