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On June 02 2010 11:29 HCastorp wrote:
Well, if it is close, the question would obviously remain unresolved for that very reason. Perhaps you and someone else more skilled would like to try? It seems to me that knowing who would win, or whether it is close or not, in this situation would be a useful thing to know. I'm not trying to use this as a stick to beat Dimaga with, I'm genuinely curious.
This will probably be known with time, but if someone could try it that would be great.
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On June 02 2010 11:29 HCastorp wrote:
Well, if it is close, the question would obviously remain unresolved for that very reason. Perhaps you and someone else more skilled would like to try? It seems to me that knowing who would win, or whether it is close or not, in this situation would be a useful thing to know. I'm not trying to use this as a stick to beat Dimaga with, I'm genuinely curious.
I think Cool himself answered that for you-
if this reliably worked he woulda picked the option to mirror the BO's in the regame.
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Uh, sorry but that's nonsense. If Cool knew that Dimaga was expecting a 7 pool he would NEVER have gone 7 pool again, because 7 pool is easily counterable if you're not going hatch first.
The only reason Cool used a 7 pool was due to the mind game he was playing with Dimaga - he expected Dimaga to go hatch first, Dimaga did go hatch first, but managed to scout Cool's build quickly enough to decide to 16 pool instead. That's where all the nuances lie.
Honestly, I don't know why Cool felt like he had to exploit the meta-game this way. He could have played straight up if he chose to, and eventually did and won. But it seems as though he detected an easy victory here and gambled, instead.
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On June 02 2010 11:35 Sfydjklm wrote:
I think Cool himself answered that for you-
if this reliably worked he woulda picked the option to mirror the BO's in the regame.
That makes sense to me. I speculated on that possibility in one of my posts in this thread. But as I said in that post, I would also ask you to consider this: I have to assume Cool has tried this build on this map before, knows how long it takes an ovie to get to his base, etc. If his build loses to a delayed 16 pool, what does it beat?
At any rate I hope to test this later tonight. It may shed some light on the subject, it may not.
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Azarkon, I think you missed the fact that under the admin's original decision, both players would have been required to mirror their builds.
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HCastorp, 7 pool cannot be mirrored because it IS a cheese, with all the attendant factors thereof. Once the element of surprise is lost, the build is much easier to defend against.
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On June 02 2010 11:41 HCastorp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 11:35 Sfydjklm wrote:
I think Cool himself answered that for you-
if this reliably worked he woulda picked the option to mirror the BO's in the regame.
That makes sense to me. I speculated on that possibility in one of my posts in this thread. But as I said in that post, I would also ask you to consider this: I have to assume Cool has tried this build on this map before, knows how long it takes an ovie to get to his base, etc. If his build loses to a delayed 16 pool, what does it beat? At any rate I hope to test this later tonight. It may shed some light on the subject, it may not.
"oh shit what the fuck am i doing"
i expect thats what was going on in Cool's head after he was offered to regame with same exact builds.
The fact of the matter is, even if he beats delayed 16 pool, he loses to every other single build dimaga could use. There is no way to spin this, except to say that Cool fucked up.
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On June 02 2010 11:46 Azarkon wrote:
HCastorp, 7 pool cannot be mirrored because it IS a cheese, with all the attendant factors thereof. Once the element of surprise is lost, the build is much easier to defend against.
What are you even talking about, sigh.;|
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On June 02 2010 11:46 Azarkon wrote:
HCastorp, 7 pool cannot be mirrored because it IS a cheese, with all the attendant factors thereof. Once the element of surprise is lost, the build is much easier to defend against.
Let me quote you on this: Uh, sorry but that's nonsense. Players on this level can handle getting cheesed. If they had managed to copy the exact same opening, what would have followed would have been representative of the outcome of the first game. It's not like Dimaga had many choices, so it comes down to their micro, which wouldn't have been affected by Cools early pool.
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On June 02 2010 11:49 Sfydjklm wrote:
"oh shit what the fuck am i doing"
i expect thats what was going on in Cool's head after he was offered to regame with same exact builds.
The fact of the matter is, even if he beats delayed 16 pool, he loses to every other single build dimaga could use. There is no way to spin this, except to say that Cool fucked up.
Ok, go easy on me, I'm trying to figure this out, not prove a point.
Are you saying now that you think Cool never tried this BO on this map before, and decided after the DC that even though Dimaga did the worst possible counter to his build he still wasn't confident to win?
I mean, basically, there are two possibilities when doing cool's build:
1) your opponent builds a pool at 13 or earlier. You lose or at least are very likely to lose.
2) your opponent builds a spawning pool (cancelling hatch if necessary) as soon as their ovie sees your base.
If Cool doesn't think he can win in situation two, his build makes no sense. Stranger things have happened I guess. It could be true.
At any rate, I don't think I have anything more to contribute to this thread until I am able to test it out. And, as we have discussed I might not be able to add much even then.  Would be great if someone could PM me to try it out - I have no B.net friends since the last reset 
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On June 02 2010 11:49 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 11:41 HCastorp wrote:On June 02 2010 11:35 Sfydjklm wrote:
I think Cool himself answered that for you-
if this reliably worked he woulda picked the option to mirror the BO's in the regame.
That makes sense to me. I speculated on that possibility in one of my posts in this thread. But as I said in that post, I would also ask you to consider this: I have to assume Cool has tried this build on this map before, knows how long it takes an ovie to get to his base, etc. If his build loses to a delayed 16 pool, what does it beat? At any rate I hope to test this later tonight. It may shed some light on the subject, it may not. "oh shit what the fuck am i doing" i expect thats what was going on in Cool's head after he was offered to regame with same exact builds. The fact of the matter is, even if he beats delayed 16 pool, he loses to every other single build dimaga could use. There is no way to spin this, except to say that Cool fucked up.
Yeah, except Dimaga offered to play the same 16 pool build. I think Cool chose not to take that route again since a 7 pool is easier to stop when you are mentally prepared for it.
Given that nobody has any factual evidence about the d/c, I'm appalled that more credit isn't given to Dimaga for this epic run for Europe in this tournament. Losing 4-3 in the finals, being completely dominated in mind-games throughout, shows that Dimaga's pure skill is definitely up there with Cool and the other top zergs in Asia. IMO, he lost to 7pool once, and smartly-taken hidden expos twice.
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On June 02 2010 12:00 HCastorp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 11:49 Sfydjklm wrote:
"oh shit what the fuck am i doing"
i expect thats what was going on in Cool's head after he was offered to regame with same exact builds.
The fact of the matter is, even if he beats delayed 16 pool, he loses to every other single build dimaga could use. There is no way to spin this, except to say that Cool fucked up. Ok, go easy on me, I'm trying to figure this out, not prove a point. Are you saying now that you think Cool never tried this BO on this map before, and decided after the DC that even though Dimaga did the worst possible counter to his build he still wasn't confident to win? I mean, basically, there are two possibilities when doing cool's build: 1) your opponent builds a pool at 13 or earlier. You lose or at least are very likely to lose. 2) your opponent builds a spawning pool (cancelling hatch if necessary) as soon as their ovie sees your base. If Cool doesn't think he can win in situation two, his build makes no sense. Stranger things have happened I guess. It could be true. At any rate, I don't think I have anything more to contribute to this thread until I am able to test it out. And, as we have discussed I might not be able to add much even then. Would be great if someone could PM me to try it out - I have no B.net friends since the last reset
17173 showmatch Cool used 6 pool vs ACE on DO.
http://v.game.sohu.com/v/5/9/68/Njg4MTIx
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On June 02 2010 12:13 Prodtoss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 12:00 HCastorp wrote:On June 02 2010 11:49 Sfydjklm wrote:
"oh shit what the fuck am i doing"
i expect thats what was going on in Cool's head after he was offered to regame with same exact builds.
The fact of the matter is, even if he beats delayed 16 pool, he loses to every other single build dimaga could use. There is no way to spin this, except to say that Cool fucked up. Ok, go easy on me, I'm trying to figure this out, not prove a point. Are you saying now that you think Cool never tried this BO on this map before, and decided after the DC that even though Dimaga did the worst possible counter to his build he still wasn't confident to win? I mean, basically, there are two possibilities when doing cool's build: 1) your opponent builds a pool at 13 or earlier. You lose or at least are very likely to lose. 2) your opponent builds a spawning pool (cancelling hatch if necessary) as soon as their ovie sees your base. If Cool doesn't think he can win in situation two, his build makes no sense. Stranger things have happened I guess. It could be true. At any rate, I don't think I have anything more to contribute to this thread until I am able to test it out. And, as we have discussed I might not be able to add much even then. Would be great if someone could PM me to try it out - I have no B.net friends since the last reset 17173 showmatch Cool used 6 pool vs ACE on DO. http://v.game.sohu.com/v/5/9/68/Njg4MTIx
Different races. Not sure what conclusions you can extrapolate to a zvz.
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On June 02 2010 12:26 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 12:13 Prodtoss wrote:On June 02 2010 12:00 HCastorp wrote:On June 02 2010 11:49 Sfydjklm wrote:
"oh shit what the fuck am i doing"
i expect thats what was going on in Cool's head after he was offered to regame with same exact builds.
The fact of the matter is, even if he beats delayed 16 pool, he loses to every other single build dimaga could use. There is no way to spin this, except to say that Cool fucked up. Ok, go easy on me, I'm trying to figure this out, not prove a point. Are you saying now that you think Cool never tried this BO on this map before, and decided after the DC that even though Dimaga did the worst possible counter to his build he still wasn't confident to win? I mean, basically, there are two possibilities when doing cool's build: 1) your opponent builds a pool at 13 or earlier. You lose or at least are very likely to lose. 2) your opponent builds a spawning pool (cancelling hatch if necessary) as soon as their ovie sees your base. If Cool doesn't think he can win in situation two, his build makes no sense. Stranger things have happened I guess. It could be true. At any rate, I don't think I have anything more to contribute to this thread until I am able to test it out. And, as we have discussed I might not be able to add much even then. Would be great if someone could PM me to try it out - I have no B.net friends since the last reset 17173 showmatch Cool used 6 pool vs ACE on DO. http://v.game.sohu.com/v/5/9/68/Njg4MTIx Different races. Not sure what conclusions you can extrapolate to a zvz.
what I mean is Cool uses 6 or 7 pool on DO can do a lot of damage with his micro and not all in strat
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On June 02 2010 12:33 Prodtoss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 12:26 nihlon wrote:On June 02 2010 12:13 Prodtoss wrote:On June 02 2010 12:00 HCastorp wrote:On June 02 2010 11:49 Sfydjklm wrote:
"oh shit what the fuck am i doing"
i expect thats what was going on in Cool's head after he was offered to regame with same exact builds.
The fact of the matter is, even if he beats delayed 16 pool, he loses to every other single build dimaga could use. There is no way to spin this, except to say that Cool fucked up. Ok, go easy on me, I'm trying to figure this out, not prove a point. Are you saying now that you think Cool never tried this BO on this map before, and decided after the DC that even though Dimaga did the worst possible counter to his build he still wasn't confident to win? I mean, basically, there are two possibilities when doing cool's build: 1) your opponent builds a pool at 13 or earlier. You lose or at least are very likely to lose. 2) your opponent builds a spawning pool (cancelling hatch if necessary) as soon as their ovie sees your base. If Cool doesn't think he can win in situation two, his build makes no sense. Stranger things have happened I guess. It could be true. At any rate, I don't think I have anything more to contribute to this thread until I am able to test it out. And, as we have discussed I might not be able to add much even then. Would be great if someone could PM me to try it out - I have no B.net friends since the last reset 17173 showmatch Cool used 6 pool vs ACE on DO. http://v.game.sohu.com/v/5/9/68/Njg4MTIx Different races. Not sure what conclusions you can extrapolate to a zvz. what I mean is Cool uses 6 or 7 pool on DO can do a lot of damage with his micro and not all in strat
Ah, fair enough, I can buy that.
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On June 02 2010 08:21 rhap wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 07:00 Zelniq wrote:
not only are you completely out of line for assuming he disconnected on purpose, which he did not, but you're also wrong that he would have lost that game. go ahead and test it out, his 16 pool would have defended that just fine because of the long desert oasis rush distance. that and the fact that overlords always get there in time to see a fast pool is why dimaga opts to try for FE (he was moving drone, but sent back when he saw zerglings pop)
Yeah, I've the same impression as yours. It's awesome how people try to take away the bright of DIMAGA's games by saying he disconnected by purpose. I've seen DIMAGA lagging in many games and tourneys, even matches he was winning. Last weekend he was lagging against Satiini in ZOTAC final, but he just wanted to end the games fast due to that and went for all-in strats. It's obvious he's got internet problem sometimes. What I found more funny than DIMAGA's disconnect was the fact that Cool had to try a cheese strat twice. That's what I call of "fear of your opponent". Once again, great show by DIMAGA.
do some cheeses on BO5 ro BO7 final is usual.Flash used 8 BB on MSL final right? It's kind of mind-game
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On June 02 2010 12:45 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 12:33 Prodtoss wrote:On June 02 2010 12:26 nihlon wrote:On June 02 2010 12:13 Prodtoss wrote:On June 02 2010 12:00 HCastorp wrote:On June 02 2010 11:49 Sfydjklm wrote:
"oh shit what the fuck am i doing"
i expect thats what was going on in Cool's head after he was offered to regame with same exact builds.
The fact of the matter is, even if he beats delayed 16 pool, he loses to every other single build dimaga could use. There is no way to spin this, except to say that Cool fucked up. Ok, go easy on me, I'm trying to figure this out, not prove a point. Are you saying now that you think Cool never tried this BO on this map before, and decided after the DC that even though Dimaga did the worst possible counter to his build he still wasn't confident to win? I mean, basically, there are two possibilities when doing cool's build: 1) your opponent builds a pool at 13 or earlier. You lose or at least are very likely to lose. 2) your opponent builds a spawning pool (cancelling hatch if necessary) as soon as their ovie sees your base. If Cool doesn't think he can win in situation two, his build makes no sense. Stranger things have happened I guess. It could be true. At any rate, I don't think I have anything more to contribute to this thread until I am able to test it out. And, as we have discussed I might not be able to add much even then. Would be great if someone could PM me to try it out - I have no B.net friends since the last reset 17173 showmatch Cool used 6 pool vs ACE on DO. http://v.game.sohu.com/v/5/9/68/Njg4MTIx Different races. Not sure what conclusions you can extrapolate to a zvz. what I mean is Cool uses 6 or 7 pool on DO can do a lot of damage with his micro and not all in strat Ah, fair enough, I can buy that.
IMO Cool may practiced 6,7 pool on DO many times,everyone knows on DO is far distance may not anticipate this strat. with Cool's micro this should succeed so Cool typed "me win 100%"
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On June 02 2010 11:50 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 11:46 Azarkon wrote:
HCastorp, 7 pool cannot be mirrored because it IS a cheese, with all the attendant factors thereof. Once the element of surprise is lost, the build is much easier to defend against. What are you even talking about, sigh.;|
CHEESE builds require not being discovered - that is the very definition of CHEESE. If you get your pool right away at 16 and is completely prepared for the lings, that's different than going 16 hatch and then switching to 16 pool when you scout your opponent. If it were the same BO Dimaga wouldn't even need to scout. Like people said, 7 pool isn't auto-win against 16 pool. If anything it's a disadvantage if the opponent is well-prepared.
In any case, I'm not in the camp of people who believe that Dimaga purposefully disconnected. I'm simply saying that it's nonsense that Cool would agree to do the same CHEESE strategy when he no longer has the element of surprise.
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On June 02 2010 13:06 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 11:50 Sfydjklm wrote:On June 02 2010 11:46 Azarkon wrote:
HCastorp, 7 pool cannot be mirrored because it IS a cheese, with all the attendant factors thereof. Once the element of surprise is lost, the build is much easier to defend against. What are you even talking about, sigh.;| CHEESE builds require not being discovered - that is the very definition of CHEESE. If you get your pool right away at 16 and is completely prepared for the lings, that's different than going 16 hatch and then switching to 16 pool when you scout your opponent. If it were the same BO Dimaga wouldn't even need to scout. Like people said, 7 pool isn't auto-win against 16 pool. If anything it's a disadvantage if the opponent is well-prepared. In any case, I'm not in the camp of people who believe that Dimaga purposefully disconnected. I'm simply saying that it's nonsense that Cool would agree to do the same CHEESE strategy when he no longer has the element of surprise.
yea, and the most important thing is this is the Grand-final match point game so scout this cheese must be nervous to counter it
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I guess Cool has to be considered the best player in the world right now given his victories in PlayXP Brainbox, PGR 21 and now the World Cup (which was by far the most stacked tournament of the beta).
It's funny because there was a replay pack of his uploaded a few weeks ago and most of the comments on here were about how bad he was and how far the Koreans were behind Euro/US in SC2.
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EPT
