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Slush vs Artosis - Page 17

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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Ghazwan
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Netherlands444 Posts
May 09 2010 10:47 GMT
#321
Owning up mistakes is nice and well but TL,with this statement, not only shadowed Slush's victory over Artosis, but also all the success of Slush during the tournament, who did nothing but follow ref's decision.
rugmonkey
Profile Joined August 2009
United Kingdom126 Posts
May 09 2010 10:51 GMT
#322
Good post. Hope it goes some way to relieving tensions.
XeliN
Profile Joined June 2009
United Kingdom1755 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-09 11:19:29
May 09 2010 11:07 GMT
#323
On May 09 2010 19:09 dogabutila wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2010 18:25 BroOd wrote:
You wouldn't blacklist a soccer player who didn't report his own handball, would you? Or a football player who didn't report his own facemask penalty?


Entirely different situation my friend.

If I stand to gain something by not speaking up then why would I ever speak up?
However in this situation not only do I stand to gain, but another stands to lose by my inaction. Is it fair that because of my selfishness, greed, and lack of morals that I would cause another who should rightfully gain something to lose it?



You state it is entirely different then go on to argue through reasoning which would apply to both situations.

Although it is different, as I would assume it was Slush's objections which led to the need for a referee descision.

At most though I think he can be criticised for being very selfish and unsportsmanlike, but not to the extent where he ought to be punished.

I remember lots of clanwar situations in BW where people would object over the most idiotic things. One was a situation very similar where I had 100% won the game, but disconnected at the end. Person refused to watch the replay as did the people in his clan, kept saying it had to be a regame and got all rude and irritable. Then obv admin gives descision that it is clearly my win and opponent can't actually form a coherent argument against it, but goes into sulky "wronged" mode.

But anyway here is an example where there was nothing to gain beyond simple a clanleague game win, but if people can have this selfish reaction to such things it's no suprise that in a tournament with money, where a referee actually makes a descision in your favour that you will go along with it (or that many people would).
Adonai bless
Wargizmo
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia1237 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-09 11:13:20
May 09 2010 11:12 GMT
#324
On May 09 2010 19:09 dogabutila wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2010 18:25 BroOd wrote:
You wouldn't blacklist a soccer player who didn't report his own handball, would you? Or a football player who didn't report his own facemask penalty?


Entirely different situation my friend.

If I stand to gain something by not speaking up then why would I ever speak up?
However in this situation not only do I stand to gain, but another stands to lose by my inaction. Is it fair that because of my selfishness, greed, and lack of morals that I would cause another who should rightfully gain something to lose it?


I just cannot understand the people who feel as if slush did nothing wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omission_(criminal_law)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue


This is hardly a matter of criminal law, if it was then just about every sportsperson ever would be in jail.

And how can you say it's different, in competition there's always someone that stands to lose and someone that stands to gain from this kind of thing.

More often than not with sportsmanship it's just about what is generally accepted in that particular game/sport and what isn't, for example a tennis player would never voluntarily give his opponent a point even though he may know the linesman made a wrong call and he benefited from it. Sometimes this changes over time, in cricket 30 years ago if someone was out and didn't walk it was considered bad manners, nowadays it's accepted that even if you're clearly out you wait for the umpires call.

Now this particular situation is a pretty unique situation that rarely comes up in Starcraft tournaments so how the hell is Slush to know what is acceptable and what isn't, that's even assuming that he didn't think he had a chance of winning, which in all probability he probably did at the time. I can't blame him for defaulting to the refs decision.
Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is best. - Frank Zappa
Demand2k
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Norway875 Posts
May 09 2010 11:15 GMT
#325
Very good decisions, Nazgul. Respect
zul
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany5427 Posts
May 09 2010 11:16 GMT
#326
Even if Artosis was ahead in the game - you have to respect the Admins decision (no matter what) during the tournament. If you feel unfairly treated - make your point after the tournament and take the official way. Anything else is unprofessional.
keep it deep! @zulison
Spidinko
Profile Joined May 2010
Slovakia1174 Posts
May 09 2010 11:19 GMT
#327
Why are so many people blaming Slush? He didn't break any rules, he merely let refs decide, which is his right. Congrats to Slush, he played really well throughout the tournament.
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
May 09 2010 11:20 GMT
#328
I think everyone needs to step back and take a look at what happened here.

A mistake was made by the refs. A very reasonable mistake under teh circumstances. A player gets robbed of the chance of advancing in and possibly winning the entire tournament.

TL looks at this and says: Hey guys I think we made a mistake. Let's put something in place to ensure that never happens again. Voila, we have the "expert panels".

This is a great idea that will set a new standard for how to run tournaments. TL has once again raised the bar for how to do things in the community.
Full.tilt
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United Kingdom1709 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-09 11:33:59
May 09 2010 11:27 GMT
#329
Expert panels can just create a new set of problems though, including bias or the decision needing to be unaminous, if it comes down to a vote within the expert panel then the result is obviously not as clear cut as people assume and people will always be left wondering 'What if?'. Regame would then be the fairest option in almost every situation.

Hard and fast rules should be the order of the day during a livestream tournament with 8k+ people watching. You disconnect you lose, or regame the entire match so if it's 2-2 and someone disconnects due to a bug or hardware failure then start off at 0-0. Which obviously leads back to the good old; you disconnect you lose, to save time and a lot of hassle.
Badjas
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Netherlands2038 Posts
May 09 2010 11:31 GMT
#330
On May 09 2010 19:47 Ghazwan wrote:
Owning up mistakes is nice and well but TL,with this statement, not only shadowed Slush's victory over Artosis, but also all the success of Slush during the tournament, who did nothing but follow ref's decision.

That is nonsense. You can read it like that if you want, but that is your personal slant then. TL's only implication with the statement regarding Slush is that Slush should not have advanced, but Artosis. Artosis did not play in the Ro4 or finals, Slush did. Slush' performance there is undeniable. Playing the what-if game makes no sense and is better left to day dreamers.
I <3 the internet, I <3 you
Thrill
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
2599 Posts
May 09 2010 11:35 GMT
#331
On May 09 2010 19:47 Ghazwan wrote:
Owning up mistakes is nice and well but TL,with this statement, not only shadowed Slush's victory over Artosis, but also all the success of Slush during the tournament, who did nothing but follow ref's decision.


The shadow is warranted. When you play a guy who's playing from Korea and you're going to sustain a 100% loss - you don't you "omg YEEES!!! he DCd!" and send the ruling off to the judges. That's the sort of ladder attitude we don't need in tournaments.

When TL admins later conclude that it wasn't a 98% or even 99% certainty that Artosis would win, but a 100% certainty after a >25minute game - you concede that win, you don't compromise your own morality over the chance of a lucky break.

You do what's right and win fair - or you do stuff like this and your win gets scuffed at. Simple facts of the matter.
SmoKim
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark10305 Posts
May 09 2010 11:45 GMT
#332
damn, i wasn't home last night, sounds like some serious drama was going on o_0

this is all so confusing
"LOL I have 202 supply right now (3 minutes later)..."LOL NOW I HAVE 220 SUPPLY SUP?!?!?" - Mondragon
Vimsey
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom2235 Posts
May 09 2010 11:46 GMT
#333
I think we need to step back and accept that everyone involved in this is human and make mistakes.

From watching the lead up to the last day9 game v Artosis. Artosis was already heated and swearing about he delay because of the page pool error. Being angry before his game with slush wouldnt have helped matters. But if he can take anything from this that its better to remain well mannered and polite because people are more likely to respond favourably to that than being ranted and sworn at. They will just dig their heels in. Day9's vod on dealing with losing analyses this very well and gives suggestions to how to deal with it and calm yourself.

I can understand why Slush would go with the referees. I would trust them to make the right decision and if someone bad mouthed me in whatever sport or competition, I would hardly be more likely to change my mind. I expect he did the same.

Finally the referees, in whatever sport esport or game it has to be that their decision is final. Its never a nice job to be the adjudicator and some respect needs to be shown to them because decisions wont always go your way and without them there would be no tournament. You can review things afterwards but otherwise people could still be arguing decisions for 2-3 hours and by then you've lost your audience. I cant think of one esport where a disconnect is an advantage for anyone, at best you get a regame or recover from recent save at worst teams have one less player for a while or default a loss.

UbiNax
Profile Joined February 2010
Denmark381 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-09 11:48:05
May 09 2010 11:47 GMT
#334
On May 09 2010 19:42 Eury wrote:
The decision that was made was the correct one. You should never award a win to a player that disconnect unless his opponent has either said gg, or there isn't even a theoretical chance for him to win. This just wasn't the case in Slush vs Artosis.

It's sad to see Teamliquid backpedaling on their decision just because they are receiving some heat for their decision, and because it involves a "famous" community member.

I'm sorry Nazgul, but you are pretty much throwing Kennigit under the bus whether you want it or not, and it will undermine the authority of the TL admins in future tournaments.


are you serious.....?

There were no way slush could win that won what so ever. and even though slush at the time " before watching the replay " thought " he still had a chance he should have looked over the replay in the break and admitt defeat instead of being all like " oh im gonna be 100% passive now and let the judges call because then i might have a chance of a regame *.* "

TL didnt do any backpedaling because Artosis is a " famous " community member they did it because they knew that they have made a mistake, they made the wrong call at the given time.

That being said, people shouldnt rage on Teamliquid for their decision, shit happens when the wheels are rolling and you need to keep them spinning, they did an awesome job with the tournament besides that 1 call.
" now they know that they need to look at it differently next time, "

TL <3
Ghazwan
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Netherlands444 Posts
May 09 2010 11:49 GMT
#335
@ Thrill: 100% loss? Afaik, the score when Artosis d/ced was 1-1, showing clearly that Slush is capable of beating Artosis. And, there was a re-game where Slush beated Artosis again. Not to mention the guy won all his other match-ups in the tournament showing a great performance.

@Badjas: I am not the one doing the 'what-if's. For me, Slush won the tournament fair and square. But, everyone else is doing the 'what-if's about who would have won the tourney now that it is out on the open that refs might have made a mistake.

The result is irrevertible. What's done is done and the winner is Slush. Perhaps the apology should have been kept private. What does this publicity bring other than some praises from the community, lotsa drama and undermining of Slush's success who didn't cheat nor stepped out of refs' orders?
infinity2k9
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom2397 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-09 11:55:19
May 09 2010 11:51 GMT
#336
On May 09 2010 17:25 MorningMusume11 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2010 17:08 KatanaSwordfish wrote:
On May 09 2010 13:26 jax1492 wrote:
On May 09 2010 12:37 NukeGoesKABOOM wrote:
On May 09 2010 12:35 JassyP wrote:
I feel people need to stop bashing Artosis, yea his temper got the best of him....but on the real tip...if you felt someone was going to snatch 300 dollars out of your hands you would get angry too.


He flipped out over a video game dude.


This is what Artosis devotes his life and career too.... its more than a game to him.

but ya i think he could have handled him self a bit better, but as you see he was right about the situation.

i would like to see a show match when things blow over, i think it would be a great game.


If Artosis has devoted his whole life and career to SC and SC2, he should invest in a better computer that doesn't crash. If you're a pro bungee jumper and your bungee cable snaps because you decided you didn't want to invest in a professional quality set-up, it's your own fault. If Artosis is truly serious about professional gaming he should invest in a gaming rig with enough power and stability to run the game properly. Instead, Artosis would rather play on a crappy setup and use it as an excuse for any loss (saying that his terrible loss against daynine was because of a mysterious page pool error that somehow magically cause his computer to lag without effecting his opponent as well [which is impossible without having some sort of synch error in an RTS game, btw]).

Artosis has been unsportsmanlike and whiny since the second match of the tournament vs day. Constant excuses and complaining about computer and connection issues. Anyone that watched the stream could even read the bs that artosis was spewing in the chat.

What I want to know is, why did this 'mistake' happen in the first place..? Obviously the judges didn't feel that Artosis had the game 100% finished when they originally reviewed the replay... So what profound event happened between then and now that made them change their minds so unanimously...? Seems like everyone is too busy d**k-riding artosis and trying to make him feel better now that he is super salty about the tournament and posting ridiculous tweets about the huge injustice of a tournament that follows it's own precidented rules.

Hey artosis, want to know how to avoid embarrassing losses? Invest in some quality computer parts and equipment and a nice stable internet connection. If gaming is your hobby, career and life, then you should at least be able to support yourself enough to afford the basic necessities of PC gaming.

All this sodium isn't good for your blood pressure man.




Says the guy that has two posts


Yeah but hes completely right. The guy is in fucking MYM now. Things you shouldn't do when you are in a professional team: Have a computer that cannot stably run the game; whine like fuck to everyone possible and insult people on your twitter.

Tasteless didn't play because of computer issues. That's the correct decision to make and what Artosis should have done in the first place.

On May 09 2010 18:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
The disconnect is simply something that happens, beyond either players' control, that forces this situation. Ultimately it's the judges' call that's deciding the situation. The disconnect can be replaced by a power outage, Slush's computer spontaneously combusting, or anything of the sort.

Strictly speaking, yes, the disconnect cheated Artosis. But practically speaking, if an organizer said that it would just be dodging responsibility.


Its not beyond his control though its completely within his control. It wasn't an unexpected random disconnect hes been having it happen all the time.
{ToT}ColmA
Profile Joined November 2007
Japan3260 Posts
May 09 2010 11:57 GMT
#337
Hm, was absent from rts gaming for 3 years but back in the days u were happy to get a regame after _you_ disced....cause if u disc its not your opponents fault...i mean seriously.

Artosis BMing the Admins is a nice sidekick thou, kids BM all day or what.
The only virgins in kpop left are the fans
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
May 09 2010 12:05 GMT
#338
On May 09 2010 19:19 BroOd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2010 19:09 dogabutila wrote:
On May 09 2010 18:25 BroOd wrote:
You wouldn't blacklist a soccer player who didn't report his own handball, would you? Or a football player who didn't report his own facemask penalty?


Entirely different situation my friend.

If I stand to gain something by not speaking up then why would I ever speak up?
However in this situation not only do I stand to gain, but another stands to lose by my inaction. Is it fair that because of my selfishness, greed, and lack of morals that I would cause another who should rightfully gain something to lose it?


I just cannot understand the people who feel as if slush did nothing wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omission_(criminal_law)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue

How is that different exactly? In Ireland vs France World Cup qualifiers, Thierry Henry handballed a goal that put France in the World Cup and left Ireland out. Should he have reported himself to the referee?

Ideally, yes. That's a given to me.

If you want an example of a sport where players regularly self-report, it's Ultimate Frisbee. But I don't like the reliance on "analogous" situations to determine what's reasonable. I think knowledge of just this particular event + knowledge of justice/fairness/fair play/sportsmanship + reasoning should be enough.
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
vvvVec
Profile Joined March 2010
Norway85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-09 12:14:31
May 09 2010 12:13 GMT
#339
Just popping in to say that Artosis makes it very hard for himself for new people like me to the scene to like him. In the match vs Day9 where he lost on Steppes of War he whines like an idiot in the lobby before the next game, boldly stating that he would have won if he didnt get an error during the game.

Really? What is that for a thing to say. You lose and the QQ in the gamelobby that you would have won had XYZ occured. Its such a low thing to do, not only undermining your own character, but also the ability of ur opponent. Especially after being behind after a rush->expand by day9.

Day9 were in a rather huge lead, which is obvious to anyone who actually watched the game.

Artosis bitching about every single thing really makes it easy to look down on him. And justifiable so, in many cases.
Deleted User 55994
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
949 Posts
May 09 2010 12:17 GMT
#340
On May 09 2010 21:13 vvvVec wrote:
Just popping in to say that Artosis makes it very hard for himself for new people like me to the scene to like him. In the match vs Day9 where he lost on Steppes of War he whines like an idiot in the lobby before the next game, boldly stating that he would have won if he didnt get an error during the game.

Really? What is that for a thing to say. You lose and the QQ in the gamelobby that you would have won had XYZ occured. Its such a low thing to do, not only undermining your own character, but also the ability of ur opponent. Especially after being behind after a rush->expand by day9.

Day9 were in a rather huge lead, which is obvious to anyone who actually watched the game.

Artosis bitching about every single thing really makes it easy to look down on him. And justifiable so, in many cases.


Welcome to the real world. Top players are humans and when speaking with other top players who they know well, they might even be honest instead of feigning being 100% perfect mannered like goddamn koreans. I'm glad the foreign scene has great players like nony, idra and artosis who aren't afraid to speak their mind on things involving other people & their own games.
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