EPTSlush vs Artosis - Page 17
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Ghazwan
Netherlands444 Posts
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rugmonkey
United Kingdom126 Posts
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XeliN
United Kingdom1755 Posts
On May 09 2010 19:09 dogabutila wrote: Entirely different situation my friend. If I stand to gain something by not speaking up then why would I ever speak up? However in this situation not only do I stand to gain, but another stands to lose by my inaction. Is it fair that because of my selfishness, greed, and lack of morals that I would cause another who should rightfully gain something to lose it? You state it is entirely different then go on to argue through reasoning which would apply to both situations. Although it is different, as I would assume it was Slush's objections which led to the need for a referee descision. At most though I think he can be criticised for being very selfish and unsportsmanlike, but not to the extent where he ought to be punished. I remember lots of clanwar situations in BW where people would object over the most idiotic things. One was a situation very similar where I had 100% won the game, but disconnected at the end. Person refused to watch the replay as did the people in his clan, kept saying it had to be a regame and got all rude and irritable. Then obv admin gives descision that it is clearly my win and opponent can't actually form a coherent argument against it, but goes into sulky "wronged" mode. But anyway here is an example where there was nothing to gain beyond simple a clanleague game win, but if people can have this selfish reaction to such things it's no suprise that in a tournament with money, where a referee actually makes a descision in your favour that you will go along with it (or that many people would). | ||
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Wargizmo
1237 Posts
On May 09 2010 19:09 dogabutila wrote: Entirely different situation my friend. If I stand to gain something by not speaking up then why would I ever speak up? However in this situation not only do I stand to gain, but another stands to lose by my inaction. Is it fair that because of my selfishness, greed, and lack of morals that I would cause another who should rightfully gain something to lose it? I just cannot understand the people who feel as if slush did nothing wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omission_(criminal_law) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue This is hardly a matter of criminal law, if it was then just about every sportsperson ever would be in jail. And how can you say it's different, in competition there's always someone that stands to lose and someone that stands to gain from this kind of thing. More often than not with sportsmanship it's just about what is generally accepted in that particular game/sport and what isn't, for example a tennis player would never voluntarily give his opponent a point even though he may know the linesman made a wrong call and he benefited from it. Sometimes this changes over time, in cricket 30 years ago if someone was out and didn't walk it was considered bad manners, nowadays it's accepted that even if you're clearly out you wait for the umpires call. Now this particular situation is a pretty unique situation that rarely comes up in Starcraft tournaments so how the hell is Slush to know what is acceptable and what isn't, that's even assuming that he didn't think he had a chance of winning, which in all probability he probably did at the time. I can't blame him for defaulting to the refs decision. | ||
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Demand2k
Norway875 Posts
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zul
Germany5427 Posts
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Spidinko
Slovakia1174 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
A mistake was made by the refs. A very reasonable mistake under teh circumstances. A player gets robbed of the chance of advancing in and possibly winning the entire tournament. TL looks at this and says: Hey guys I think we made a mistake. Let's put something in place to ensure that never happens again. Voila, we have the "expert panels". This is a great idea that will set a new standard for how to run tournaments. TL has once again raised the bar for how to do things in the community. | ||
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Full.tilt
United Kingdom1709 Posts
Hard and fast rules should be the order of the day during a livestream tournament with 8k+ people watching. You disconnect you lose, or regame the entire match so if it's 2-2 and someone disconnects due to a bug or hardware failure then start off at 0-0. Which obviously leads back to the good old; you disconnect you lose, to save time and a lot of hassle. | ||
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Badjas
Netherlands2038 Posts
On May 09 2010 19:47 Ghazwan wrote: Owning up mistakes is nice and well but TL,with this statement, not only shadowed Slush's victory over Artosis, but also all the success of Slush during the tournament, who did nothing but follow ref's decision. That is nonsense. You can read it like that if you want, but that is your personal slant then. TL's only implication with the statement regarding Slush is that Slush should not have advanced, but Artosis. Artosis did not play in the Ro4 or finals, Slush did. Slush' performance there is undeniable. Playing the what-if game makes no sense and is better left to day dreamers. | ||
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Thrill
2599 Posts
On May 09 2010 19:47 Ghazwan wrote: Owning up mistakes is nice and well but TL,with this statement, not only shadowed Slush's victory over Artosis, but also all the success of Slush during the tournament, who did nothing but follow ref's decision. The shadow is warranted. When you play a guy who's playing from Korea and you're going to sustain a 100% loss - you don't you "omg YEEES!!! he DCd!" and send the ruling off to the judges. That's the sort of ladder attitude we don't need in tournaments. When TL admins later conclude that it wasn't a 98% or even 99% certainty that Artosis would win, but a 100% certainty after a >25minute game - you concede that win, you don't compromise your own morality over the chance of a lucky break. You do what's right and win fair - or you do stuff like this and your win gets scuffed at. Simple facts of the matter. | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
this is all so confusing | ||
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Vimsey
United Kingdom2235 Posts
From watching the lead up to the last day9 game v Artosis. Artosis was already heated and swearing about he delay because of the page pool error. Being angry before his game with slush wouldnt have helped matters. But if he can take anything from this that its better to remain well mannered and polite because people are more likely to respond favourably to that than being ranted and sworn at. They will just dig their heels in. Day9's vod on dealing with losing analyses this very well and gives suggestions to how to deal with it and calm yourself. I can understand why Slush would go with the referees. I would trust them to make the right decision and if someone bad mouthed me in whatever sport or competition, I would hardly be more likely to change my mind. I expect he did the same. Finally the referees, in whatever sport esport or game it has to be that their decision is final. Its never a nice job to be the adjudicator and some respect needs to be shown to them because decisions wont always go your way and without them there would be no tournament. You can review things afterwards but otherwise people could still be arguing decisions for 2-3 hours and by then you've lost your audience. I cant think of one esport where a disconnect is an advantage for anyone, at best you get a regame or recover from recent save at worst teams have one less player for a while or default a loss. | ||
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UbiNax
Denmark381 Posts
On May 09 2010 19:42 Eury wrote: The decision that was made was the correct one. You should never award a win to a player that disconnect unless his opponent has either said gg, or there isn't even a theoretical chance for him to win. This just wasn't the case in Slush vs Artosis. It's sad to see Teamliquid backpedaling on their decision just because they are receiving some heat for their decision, and because it involves a "famous" community member. I'm sorry Nazgul, but you are pretty much throwing Kennigit under the bus whether you want it or not, and it will undermine the authority of the TL admins in future tournaments. are you serious.....? There were no way slush could win that won what so ever. and even though slush at the time " before watching the replay " thought " he still had a chance he should have looked over the replay in the break and admitt defeat instead of being all like " oh im gonna be 100% passive now and let the judges call because then i might have a chance of a regame *.* " TL didnt do any backpedaling because Artosis is a " famous " community member they did it because they knew that they have made a mistake, they made the wrong call at the given time. That being said, people shouldnt rage on Teamliquid for their decision, shit happens when the wheels are rolling and you need to keep them spinning, they did an awesome job with the tournament besides that 1 call. " now they know that they need to look at it differently next time, " TL <3 | ||
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Ghazwan
Netherlands444 Posts
@Badjas: I am not the one doing the 'what-if's. For me, Slush won the tournament fair and square. But, everyone else is doing the 'what-if's about who would have won the tourney now that it is out on the open that refs might have made a mistake. The result is irrevertible. What's done is done and the winner is Slush. Perhaps the apology should have been kept private. What does this publicity bring other than some praises from the community, lotsa drama and undermining of Slush's success who didn't cheat nor stepped out of refs' orders? | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
Yeah but hes completely right. The guy is in fucking MYM now. Things you shouldn't do when you are in a professional team: Have a computer that cannot stably run the game; whine like fuck to everyone possible and insult people on your twitter. Tasteless didn't play because of computer issues. That's the correct decision to make and what Artosis should have done in the first place. On May 09 2010 18:26 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: The disconnect is simply something that happens, beyond either players' control, that forces this situation. Ultimately it's the judges' call that's deciding the situation. The disconnect can be replaced by a power outage, Slush's computer spontaneously combusting, or anything of the sort. Strictly speaking, yes, the disconnect cheated Artosis. But practically speaking, if an organizer said that it would just be dodging responsibility. Its not beyond his control though its completely within his control. It wasn't an unexpected random disconnect hes been having it happen all the time. | ||
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{ToT}ColmA
Japan3260 Posts
Artosis BMing the Admins is a nice sidekick thou, kids BM all day or what. | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
On May 09 2010 19:19 BroOd wrote: How is that different exactly? In Ireland vs France World Cup qualifiers, Thierry Henry handballed a goal that put France in the World Cup and left Ireland out. Should he have reported himself to the referee? Ideally, yes. That's a given to me. If you want an example of a sport where players regularly self-report, it's Ultimate Frisbee. But I don't like the reliance on "analogous" situations to determine what's reasonable. I think knowledge of just this particular event + knowledge of justice/fairness/fair play/sportsmanship + reasoning should be enough. | ||
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vvvVec
Norway85 Posts
Really? What is that for a thing to say. You lose and the QQ in the gamelobby that you would have won had XYZ occured. Its such a low thing to do, not only undermining your own character, but also the ability of ur opponent. Especially after being behind after a rush->expand by day9. Day9 were in a rather huge lead, which is obvious to anyone who actually watched the game. Artosis bitching about every single thing really makes it easy to look down on him. And justifiable so, in many cases. | ||
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Deleted User 55994
949 Posts
On May 09 2010 21:13 vvvVec wrote: Just popping in to say that Artosis makes it very hard for himself for new people like me to the scene to like him. In the match vs Day9 where he lost on Steppes of War he whines like an idiot in the lobby before the next game, boldly stating that he would have won if he didnt get an error during the game. Really? What is that for a thing to say. You lose and the QQ in the gamelobby that you would have won had XYZ occured. Its such a low thing to do, not only undermining your own character, but also the ability of ur opponent. Especially after being behind after a rush->expand by day9. Day9 were in a rather huge lead, which is obvious to anyone who actually watched the game. Artosis bitching about every single thing really makes it easy to look down on him. And justifiable so, in many cases. Welcome to the real world. Top players are humans and when speaking with other top players who they know well, they might even be honest instead of feigning being 100% perfect mannered like goddamn koreans. I'm glad the foreign scene has great players like nony, idra and artosis who aren't afraid to speak their mind on things involving other people & their own games. | ||
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