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On September 18 2018 19:39 Pinkshinyultrablast wrote:How do you win TvZ? I can't for the life of me win a standard marine tank medivac TvZ match current patch. I have much more succes with mech, but mech is not a style I want to play just yet. In this game I tried to play relatively defensive, get my macro up and do a 2-2 push, I've tried playing more agressive but to no avail either. I know my macro wasn't flawless and I wasn't maxed when I pushed, I still felt like I had macro'd fairly decently. When I pushed though I just got utterly crushed. This guy was fairly decent, but the same happens against pretty much every zerg. Sorry for the rage at the end, It's literally the matchup that is preventing me from reaching masters, and it used to be my best matchup by far a couple of years ago. I've tried watching Maru and Innovation, Maru seems to literally have 3 drops/forms of harassment going at once while building up his army. Innovation is similar but a bit less aggro. Maru seems to struggle less in the matchup but micro'ing 3 drops at a time while getting my macro up is nigh on impossible for me. https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/8440724
You don't have to do direct damage TvZ to get to masters, but you gotta know when to attack, and how.
You only confirmed he actually had a 3rd base at 5 minutes, so being out on the map with your units before that was very risky. The next time you even catch a glimpse of his army is past 7 minutes. How would you hold allins?
And you never try to get an idea of his tech path. Is he going hydra ling bane? Is he getting a hive?
You'll never know when to defend or attack with 0 scouting.
If you watched the replay you would notice that at 9:20, you had 71 scvs to his 64 drones, 83 army supply to 62, and 2/2 about to finish, way before him.
Pushing across the map at this point was a guaranteed win... as long as you didn't do it blindly and got caught off guard, which you did. Your tanks got killed for free because they never got a chance to shoot at the banelings, and you had to run the marines behind in that awkward choke.
As a general rule with that marine/tank playstyle, push only when they get a hive, and with as many tanks as possible. Unless you're already far ahead there is absolutely no reason to risk an attack if they don't make a hive. Because you're getting more and more tanks which tier 2 zerg can do nothing about if you stay defensive.
Now they make a hive and you want to hit your timing. But don't ever expect to win TvZ if you engage like in the replay.
Scan, send a stimmed marine forward so you don't have to panic siege, and don't clump your tanks! Otherwise they're gonna shoot the same thing which is completely overkill since each tank destroy lings and banes in 1 volley.
You want a line of tanks reaching toward their base, so that your marines can retreat through it whenever the zerg decides to fight. Setting up that line is very easy when your army is moving toward their base. Siege one tank at a time and they will split naturally in the direction of your opponent.
If all banes die before reaching your marines, you don't even need to split them, your ball of bio/medivac should obliterate every other zerg unit left.
A couple more things. Your medivac production was good but once you have 7-8 just switch to liberators. That was a lot of supply and money wasted for unnecessary healing. Liberators are an extra threat, deal with fast ultras, and can be used as low maintenance but effective harass.
And a little tip so your tanks don't get owned by lings when they flank like with that second push attempt. Leave a few marines around your tanks to protect and tank damage.
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On September 18 2018 22:21 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2018 19:39 Pinkshinyultrablast wrote:How do you win TvZ? I can't for the life of me win a standard marine tank medivac TvZ match current patch. I have much more succes with mech, but mech is not a style I want to play just yet. In this game I tried to play relatively defensive, get my macro up and do a 2-2 push, I've tried playing more agressive but to no avail either. I know my macro wasn't flawless and I wasn't maxed when I pushed, I still felt like I had macro'd fairly decently. When I pushed though I just got utterly crushed. This guy was fairly decent, but the same happens against pretty much every zerg. Sorry for the rage at the end, It's literally the matchup that is preventing me from reaching masters, and it used to be my best matchup by far a couple of years ago. I've tried watching Maru and Innovation, Maru seems to literally have 3 drops/forms of harassment going at once while building up his army. Innovation is similar but a bit less aggro. Maru seems to struggle less in the matchup but micro'ing 3 drops at a time while getting my macro up is nigh on impossible for me. https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/8440724 You don't have to do direct damage TvZ to get to masters, but you gotta know when to attack, and how. You only confirmed he actually had a 3rd base at 5 minutes, so being out on the map with your units before that was very risky. The next time you even catch a glimpse of his army is past 7 minutes. How would you hold allins? And you never try to get an idea of his tech path. Is he going hydra ling bane? Is he getting a hive? You'll never know when to defend or attack with 0 scouting. If you watched the replay you would notice that at 9:20, you had 71 scvs to his 64 drones, 83 army supply to 62, and 2/2 about to finish, way before him. Pushing across the map at this point was a guaranteed win... as long as you didn't do it blindly and got caught off guard, which you did. Your tanks got killed for free because they never got a chance to shoot at the banelings, and you had to run the marines behind in that awkward choke. As a general rule with that marine/tank playstyle, push only when they get a hive, and with as many tanks as possible. Unless you're already far ahead there is absolutely no reason to risk an attack if they don't make a hive. Because you're getting more and more tanks which tier 2 zerg can do nothing about if you stay defensive. Now they make a hive and you want to hit your timing. But don't ever expect to win TvZ if you engage like in the replay. Scan, send a stimmed marine forward so you don't have to panic siege, and don't clump your tanks! Otherwise they're gonna shoot the same thing which is completely overkill since each tank destroy lings and banes in 1 volley. You want a line of tanks reaching toward their base, so that your marines can retreat through it whenever the zerg decides to fight. Setting up that line is very easy when your army is moving toward their base. Siege one tank at a time and they will split naturally in the direction of your opponent. If all banes die before reaching your marines, you don't even need to split them, your ball of bio/medivac should obliterate every other zerg unit left. A couple more things. Your medivac production was good but once you have 7-8 just switch to liberators. That was a lot of supply and money wasted for unnecessary healing. Liberators are an extra threat, deal with fast ultras, and can be used as low maintenance but effective harass. And a little tip so your tanks don't get owned by lings when they flank like with that second push attempt. Leave a few marines around your tanks to protect and tank damage.
Thanks man! Useful tips! I have actually started to prevent creep more in the last couple of hours like Maru does with several hit squads going around the map, and have found some success doing that because it makes pushing up later on a lot easier. In fact I pretty much cleared all creep from a guy doing that. Only to lose because I forgot an armory which was extremely sloppy. I think hotkeying my tanks will help tremendously with them not clumping up, and being more active in destroying destructable rocks will help me advance more quickly when I finally do push.
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What do ppl do vs zerg atm?? i have 2 problems:
IF i win a fight, by the time im at his base, hes remaxed again.. and i lose.
other is that when i try all ins, he can counter attack, + have 3 bases + hold my all in.. ( no i dont do the build wrong, im masters 1)
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Hi there,
First of all, I'm new to this thread so bear with me here (I might find some acronyms hard to understand)
So I have this problem where I play vs my friend. I being Terran (obv) him being Zerg. I seem to have the upper hand on him economically in every game, my macro seems to be better than his. Yet in every game he seems to just kill me straight up. I have higher supply and higher army etc.
I've been playing starcraft for ~3 months now, and I improved fairly quickly since I focused on certain aspects like constant SCV production, macro, not getting supply blocked. In these games I seem to win on paper, but I end up losing every time to this SOAB (we're good friends so its okay ;P).
Here are the Replays of last night:
(Im trying to go 3-1-1 Marine Medivac Tank push, some build I copied of Innovation)
1: https://drop.sc/replay/8447891 (here my supply depot wasnt lowered and my tanks didn't go forward for such a long time, my mistake)
2: https://drop.sc/replay/8447892 (here he killed a bunch of my workers / Mules early, yet im not in a too bad possition after it, still lose, he's doing some funky build)
3: https://drop.sc/replay/8447893 (this one is the most questionable for me... i have sooo much more supply, then i run into a couple of banelings and his mutas kill my workers, I just got fed up and surrendured)
So how do I improve my gameplay?
When do I move out?
How do I kill a Zerg?
Improvements?
I'd be very thankfull if id get some help, since I wanna not only beat this smug ass but also improve, I LOVE this game.
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On September 19 2018 19:48 LagShaggy wrote:Hi there, First of all, I'm new to this thread so bear with me here (I might find some acronyms hard to understand) So I have this problem where I play vs my friend. I being Terran (obv) him being Zerg. I seem to have the upper hand on him economically in every game, my macro seems to be better than his. Yet in every game he seems to just kill me straight up. I have higher supply and higher army etc. I've been playing starcraft for ~3 months now, and I improved fairly quickly since I focused on certain aspects like constant SCV production, macro, not getting supply blocked. In these games I seem to win on paper, but I end up losing every time to this SOAB (we're good friends so its okay ;P). Here are the Replays of last night: (Im trying to go 3-1-1 Marine Medivac Tank push, some build I copied of Innovation) 1: https://drop.sc/replay/8447891 (here my supply depot wasnt lowered and my tanks didn't go forward for such a long time, my mistake) 2: https://drop.sc/replay/8447892 (here he killed a bunch of my workers / Mules early, yet im not in a too bad possition after it, still lose, he's doing some funky build) 3: https://drop.sc/replay/8447893 (this one is the most questionable for me... i have sooo much more supply, then i run into a couple of banelings and his mutas kill my workers, I just got fed up and surrendured) So how do I improve my gameplay? When do I move out? How do I kill a Zerg? Improvements? I'd be very thankfull if id get some help, since I wanna not only beat this smug ass but also improve, I LOVE this game.
So the most consistent errors I noticed was, #1 you have an idea of a build but you're doing it wrong. #2 your upgrades are either very late or completely missing (EG: you don't have 2-2 at all in the last game) and #3 you make 3 hellions and then just lose them. Now it should be that I am watching these games from the perspective of Sc2replay stats and not the replay itself but I highly recommend you go back to the video innovation played and take stronger notes of what he is actually doing. I'll give you some starter tips you don't get your gas at 15 and make a marine after the reaper. You'll float gas. You either do 15 gas 1 reaper into a reactor or, 16 rax 16 gas and get a reaper and marine. 2nd you typically want 4-6 hellions. On 15 gas id do 4 and 16 gas id do 6 because you'll have more minerals to work with on 16 gas. You also always want 2 ebays to start +1 attack and +1 shields at the same time, additionally, you stay on 3rax for far too long. After your third base is landed that is when you will drop down two more barracks to be on 5 rax, and then on 4 bases, you want to be on 8 barracks. Now in "TvZ" the barracks addon ratios are typically as follows:
1 base - 1rax (1 reactor swapping off into techlab)
2 base - 3rax (2 reactor 1 techlab)
3 base - 5rax (4 reactor 1 techlab)
4 base+ - 8rax (4 reactor 4 techlab)
The reason we go for so many more reactors before we get more techlabs is that early on in TvZ we want marines as they deal the highest amount of damage in the shortest amount of time for bio. Additionally, they are easy to drop with and can shoot up. Marauders on the other hand don't need to be neglected you can make 1 at a time so that you have something to act as a shield for when banelings come. (A marauder will easily eat 8x more banelings before dying than a marine would so running behind them or sending them forward is a good tactic). Another thing is that your hellions, while they can be sacked for damage is not their core function or what you made them for. The Hellions is around to deny creep for the zerg or to defend against early speedling attacks. The reason you deny creep is so that when we have pushes like our stimpack finishing with our +1 +1 attack we want to be right at the zergs newest base, typically at this time it would be their 4th base by the time it finishes we want our marines medivacs and tanks just outside of it sieging. Typically the TvZ strategy is to harass the zergs 3rd base while denying their 4th base. So an example of how the scenario may go is:
The Terran opens typical rax expand into hellions and a liberator. The hellions poke at the zerglings and kill creep tumors as long as they can and will only sack if there is a golden opportunity (Zerg has no defense for some reason) behind it the Terran player uses the hellion pokes to sneak a liberator while going for +1 +1 stimpack and combat shields. After figuring out the location of the 4th base the Terran will clear out an attack path and hit the 4th of the zerg with 3-4 tanks, a hefty amount of marines, and some medivacs for cover. The Terran will saturate their 3rd base in the meantime and aim for a 4thbase around 8-9 mins and continue the aggression by aiming to kill the 4th or attacking/harassing the zerg at their outlier bases.
That is typically the gameplan for Terran. Just make sure from there your army is presplit so banelings don't just crash into you and have missile turrets at home if you know its mutas. Another thing is your army doesn't all need to be attacking. You can hit his third base with like 7-8 marines and just have the rest of your army split in the back with siege tanks hitting or covering your small marines. The idea here is we want to bait the zerg into running off of creep to fight the Terran army which leads to a bad engagement for them since our +1 +1 usually will finish faster. In the case we kill the 4th that's a job well done. If we cancel it also a job well done. In some cases, they may still get their 4th up and successfully defend it from there our goal changes to just take as many efficient trades as possible and deny their next base the 5th.
The final tip is if you do not like siege tanks another Terran army composition is the biomine comp. With biomine, we still go heavy marine medivac but instead of having siege tanks we have a large count of widow mines that we put around our army so that when the zerg runs in their take big shots from. This army is easier to move around with and works well against the ling bane muta style. Additionally on 3 bases when your third is fully saturated (Or when you reach 66 workers) you want to add a 2nd factory. For Biotank this is to make 2x tank and for biomine, this is to get a 2nd factory out to make 1-2 thors and get drilling claws to add more beef and speed to your army.
If you need further assistance id recommend you look up the discord AllThingsTerran and ask for more advice there. good luck in beating your friend I know you can do it! 
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On September 19 2018 17:49 MiCroLiFe wrote:
What do ppl do vs zerg atm?? i have 2 problems:
IF i win a fight, by the time im at his base, hes remaxed again.. and i lose.
other is that when i try all ins, he can counter attack, + have 3 bases + hold my all in.. ( no i dont do the build wrong, im masters 1)
Just do Hellion Liberator into macro and make your goal to trade effectively vs Zerg and deny their newest and latest bases. You don't need to all in and if you have to take it to the stage where you'll need ghosts just hunker down and turtle up. Terrans in the early game are even vs Zerg with us usually taking the advantage midgame. To press that advantage just poke at it and drop behind it. A lot of games can be won just off of taking the best trades possible and denying zerg from gaining more $ to do stupid stuff. I don't know what more to tell you id have to see your games to give you more advice
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Hi folks.
Plat1/Diams 3 on EU here.
I ask to myself if the 2-1-1 is a viable buildorder vs zerg at my level. 
I mean, I see more than 3/4 of the time a ton of zerglins off an hatch first opening, and a constant speedlings prod until I am overwhelmed. If my opponent is in a hurry, he puts a baneling nest and he shortens the game.
I don't blame this mass speedlings strat, I do it a lot when I offrace, it works so well. I think that makes the 2-1-1 opening pretty useless.
Unfortunatly, this is the BO I know the better 
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France12911 Posts
2 rax them it works better
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 20 2018 04:39 Sound1 wrote:Hi folks. Plat1/Diams 3 on EU here. I ask to myself if the 2-1-1 is a viable buildorder vs zerg at my level. I mean, I see more than 3/4 of the time a ton of zerglins off an hatch first opening, and a constant speedlings prod until I am overwhelmed. If my opponent is in a hurry, he puts a baneling nest and he shortens the game. I don't blame this mass speedlings strat, I do it a lot when I offrace, it works so well. I think that makes the 2-1-1 opening pretty useless. Unfortunatly, this is the BO I know the better
211 is perfectly fine at your level. But you don't have to commit if they have a lot of defense. You forced units, just kill creep, while getting tanks.
"Mass speedlings strat" is pretty vague but I assume they're allins so just suicide your reaper at 3.30 to see their drone count. If they have 10 drones or less at this point it's very suspicious so at least get a couple bunkers and don't rally your marines out in the open. Unlike depots, they wall more space, protect your marines and can be salvaged. So if it turns out they weren't allining it's not really putting you behind as you salvage, and they had low eco at 3.30 for whatever reason.
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I'm curious what people think is the best follow up to 2-1-1? I've been loosing a fair number of games in masters recently where my 2-1-1 does decent damage( kill/force some lings, pick off some queens and drones, deny some creep) but I'm not sure what I should be building after it. When are you guys adding: third cc, additional raxes, additional engineering bays? And what kind of follow up aggression is a good option.
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On September 21 2018 02:00 washikie wrote:
I'm curious what people think is the best follow up to 2-1-1? I've been loosing a fair number of games in masters recently where my 2-1-1 does decent damage( kill/force some lings, pick off some queens and drones, deny some creep) but I'm not sure what I should be building after it. When are you guys adding: third cc, additional raxes, additional engineering bays? And what kind of follow up aggression is a good option.
I don't know if it's the best follow-up, but as soon as I have the money :
- 2 ebays after the first 2 medivacs start building
- 100% stimpack = combat shield, and +1/+1 soon after as the ebays finish
- 3rd medivac* + 1 mine (then tech lab on factory for tanks)
- 3rd CC
- 3rd and 4th gas
- 3 more rax and armory**
- 100% armory = +2/+2 and +1 vehicle
*stop starport production
** resume it
The 3rd medivac picks up marines and the mine to join the first 2 medivacs. Try to bait lings into the mine and maybe end the game with a luck shot, but it's more likely you won't do much apart from forcing units. Then just separate the medivacs again to clear creep.
At home get the usual 4 reactors 1 tech lab 5 rax mass marines production, and add a 2nd factory asap for tanks after saturating the 3rd, then get a 4th CC. After you have 7-8 medivacs, switch to liberators.
If they make a hive I try to time a push with +2/+2 and as many tanks as possible. When I don't forget liberators, I usually send 1-2 to harass and distract, so that my army can push across the map without risking getting caught unsieged.
As long as they don't hive just turtle and secure the 4th with more and more tanks, they can't do much about it with tier 2.
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On September 21 2018 02:20 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2018 02:00 washikie wrote:
I'm curious what people think is the best follow up to 2-1-1? I've been loosing a fair number of games in masters recently where my 2-1-1 does decent damage( kill/force some lings, pick off some queens and drones, deny some creep) but I'm not sure what I should be building after it. When are you guys adding: third cc, additional raxes, additional engineering bays? And what kind of follow up aggression is a good option. I don't know if it's the best follow-up, but as soon as I have the money : - 2 ebays after the first 2 medivacs start building - 100% stimpack = combat shield, and +1/+1 soon after as the ebays finish - 3rd medivac* + 1 mine (then tech lab on factory for tanks) - 3rd CC - 3rd and 4th gas - 3 more rax and armory** - 100% armory = +2/+2 and +1 vehicle *stop starport production** resume itThe 3rd medivac picks up marines and the mine to join the first 2 medivacs. Try to bait lings into the mine and maybe end the game with a luck shot, but it's more likely you won't do much apart from forcing units. Then just separate the medivacs again to clear creep. At home get the usual 4 reactors 1 tech lab 5 rax mass marines production, and add a 2nd factory asap for tanks after saturating the 3rd, then get a 4th CC. After you have 7-8 medivacs, switch to liberators. If they make a hive I try to time a push with +2/+2 and as many tanks as possible. When I don't forget liberators, I usually send 1-2 to harass and distract, so that my army can push across the map without risking getting caught unsieged. As long as they don't hive just turtle and secure the 4th with more and more tanks, they can't do much about it with tier 2.
Thanks for the advice I will give it a try
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What are the best maps for mech tvz?
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On September 18 2018 22:21 ArtyK wrote:
Now they make a hive and you want to hit your timing. But don't ever expect to win TvZ if you engage like in the replay.
Scan, send a stimmed marine forward so you don't have to panic siege, and don't clump your tanks! Otherwise they're gonna shoot the same thing which is completely overkill since each tank destroy lings and banes in 1 volley.
Tanks don't overkill in SC2. There are plenty of good reasons to not clump your tanks (splash damage, various spells, concave), but overkill isn't one of them.
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On September 22 2018 04:33 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2018 22:21 ArtyK wrote:
Now they make a hive and you want to hit your timing. But don't ever expect to win TvZ if you engage like in the replay.
Scan, send a stimmed marine forward so you don't have to panic siege, and don't clump your tanks! Otherwise they're gonna shoot the same thing which is completely overkill since each tank destroy lings and banes in 1 volley. Tanks don't overkill in SC2. There are plenty of good reasons to not clump yout tanks (splash damage, various spells, concave), but overkill isn't one of them.
Yeah maybe I should have used another word, I just meant that they would shoot roughly the same pack of units and waste damage.
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Bot edit.
User was banned for this post.
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Tanks no longer 1 shot banelings if they have +1/+2 armor and bane speed. You need +1 attack for them to always 1 shot a bane :p
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On September 23 2018 03:07 Ryu3600 wrote:
Tanks no longer 1 shot banelings if they have +1/+2 armor and bane speed. You need +1 attack for them to always 1 shot a bane :p
Well I do mention to get +1 vehicle... but upgraded banelings with 35hp and 3 armor still get killed in one shot by the 40 damage 0/0 siege tanks... or am I missing something?
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On September 23 2018 03:48 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2018 03:07 Ryu3600 wrote:
Tanks no longer 1 shot banelings if they have +1/+2 armor and bane speed. You need +1 attack for them to always 1 shot a bane :p Well I do mention to get +1 vehicle... but upgraded banelings with 35hp and 3 armor still get killed in one shot by the 40 damage 0/0 siege tanks... or am I missing something?
Yes bane speed gives them +5 hp so thats 40 hp. So +1 armor = 41 hp so tank shells do 40 damage without +1
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On September 23 2018 04:06 Ryu3600 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2018 03:48 ArtyK wrote:On September 23 2018 03:07 Ryu3600 wrote:
Tanks no longer 1 shot banelings if they have +1/+2 armor and bane speed. You need +1 attack for them to always 1 shot a bane :p Well I do mention to get +1 vehicle... but upgraded banelings with 35hp and 3 armor still get killed in one shot by the 40 damage 0/0 siege tanks... or am I missing something? Yes bane speed gives them +5 hp so thats 40 hp. So +1 armor = 41 hp so tank shells do 40 damage without +1
You might want to check liquipedia
December 2016 update :p
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/dMlspd2.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/DmqHQvR.png)
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EPT
