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I've been experimenting with planetary fortress instead of 3rd orbital vP. I make a planetary at my third, planetary at my fourth, then make a 3rd orbital much later and keep it safe in my main base.
cons:
- no third mule to help power up my economy, esp. after trading armies
- no third scan to aid with opportunistic bio drops
- scanning DTs, observers, etc
pros:
- 3CC builds are not strong in the current metagame. I'm always going to build my 3rd CC after I build 3 raxx or 5 raxx. by the time my third CC is done, I already have my main and natural fully saturated... maybe even over-saturated? so, the 3rd orbital energy is not going to make my 5-raxx timings significantly stronger.
- zealot runbys are removed from the game. walled-off natural, planetary at third... all you have to worry about now is a warp prism. this dramatically reduces the list of threats and things to worry about. now I can focus on actually doing damage and stutter-stepping my front-line bio force.
it just seems like a no-brainer given how strong 3-base gateway / storm / charge timings are in the current metagame... every kr pro I watch struggles to defend their third base from zealot runbys. more often than not, they have to lift their 3rd orbital a bunch of times... they lose SCVs... some even build a bunker and commit 2 bio units to stay in the bunker... some even keep a liberator at their third. why would you sacrifice actual army supply when you have a structure that does the same job better? why rally units to your third when you could be non-stop parade pushing? is the 3rd orbital energy really worth it? I'd like to hear your thoughts
has any pro kr terran at least tried to build a planetary as their 3rd base? even when streaming on ladder? I'd like to see how it looks in a high level game
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Seems interesting, I always thought on some levels pros keep themselves from building PFs as their third for the same reason they sometimes refuse to build static defense : because it's perceived as a bronze league thing to do, even though it could be very efficient. Reminds me of the blink era, where people would make fun of a bronze leaguer putting a sensor tower in their main before some pros (a pro?) started doing it.
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On July 10 2018 02:46 VengefulTree wrote:
Seems interesting, I always thought on some levels pros keep themselves from building PFs as their third for the same reason they sometimes refuse to build static defense : because it's perceived as a bronze league thing to do, even though it could be very efficient. Reminds me of the blink era, where people would make fun of a bronze leaguer putting a sensor tower in their main before some pros (a pro?) started doing it.
I think part of it is down to sheer stubbornness. TY had the audacity to bust out 3CC double armory mech vP off of only a single factory in the semi-finals of GSL. I don't even think he built a starport before the 3CC and double armory... if this is an acceptable way to play in the mind of a pro terran, surely it is not a long stretch to try building a PF at the 3rd? nothing fancy... just your regular plain jane bio build, except you build a PF instead of an orbital. yeah, I reckon that's one of the unwritten rules of things a pro terran can never do...
no sensor tower on 2 base...
no PF at the third...
always wall your main ramp with reactor which is so, so vulnerable to ravager all-in...
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On July 10 2018 02:46 VengefulTree wrote:
Seems interesting, I always thought on some levels pros keep themselves from building PFs as their third for the same reason they sometimes refuse to build static defense : because it's perceived as a bronze league thing to do, even though it could be very efficient. Reminds me of the blink era, where people would make fun of a bronze leaguer putting a sensor tower in their main before some pros (a pro?) started doing it.
Yeah people don't build PFs at their 3rd to protect their image, not because it actively hinders their economy. And the anti-blink sensor tower wasn't something TY did one single time in Proleague, it was a mass movement in the pro scene.
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On July 10 2018 05:10 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2018 02:46 VengefulTree wrote:
Seems interesting, I always thought on some levels pros keep themselves from building PFs as their third for the same reason they sometimes refuse to build static defense : because it's perceived as a bronze league thing to do, even though it could be very efficient. Reminds me of the blink era, where people would make fun of a bronze leaguer putting a sensor tower in their main before some pros (a pro?) started doing it. Yeah people don't build PFs at their 3rd to protect their image, not because it actively hinders their economy. And the anti-blink sensor tower wasn't something TY did one single time in Proleague, it was a mass movement in the pro scene.
Wouldn't the lack of late game scans be an issue, scanning your opponents army is very important for Terran in late game since there army is more static and needs time to set up libs/ find windows to land pre fight emps on Templar. Having vision of Protosses army makes moving yours a lot safer since you won't get cought before your ready for an engagement.
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On July 10 2018 06:14 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2018 05:10 Elentos wrote:On July 10 2018 02:46 VengefulTree wrote:
Seems interesting, I always thought on some levels pros keep themselves from building PFs as their third for the same reason they sometimes refuse to build static defense : because it's perceived as a bronze league thing to do, even though it could be very efficient. Reminds me of the blink era, where people would make fun of a bronze leaguer putting a sensor tower in their main before some pros (a pro?) started doing it. Yeah people don't build PFs at their 3rd to protect their image, not because it actively hinders their economy. And the anti-blink sensor tower wasn't something TY did one single time in Proleague, it was a mass movement in the pro scene. Wouldn't the lack of late game scans be an issue, scanning your opponents army is very important for Terran in late game since there army is more static and needs time to set up libs/ find windows to land pre fight emps on Templar. Having vision of Protosses army makes moving yours a lot safer since you won't get cought before your ready for an engagement.
if we're talking about that phase of the game where protoss is posturing outside your 4th, moving from the 4th to the 3rd, seeing what he can get done... in this scenario, scans are a temporary solution, whether you have 3 orbitals or not. ideally you want 2 sensor towers. guess what? that sensor tower at your 3rd is a sitting duck without a planetary. planetary buys you some time to set up liberators. so in a way, planetary at the third actually helps you vs templar, by way of improving the survivability of the sensor tower. if both sensor towers are fully operational, you can use your x 2 orbital energy to make more efficient scans, not just scanning randomly in the dark. speaking of high templar... did you know planetaries can load scvs inside? nice way to dodge templar drops in a pinch.
if we're talking about pushing into a protoss who has templar. well, we already saved energy in advance because we have a good idea of when we're gonna push. usually you just need 1 or 2 scans before the battle is over and storm energy is exhausted anyway.
and if we're talking about supreme lategame... you're gonna have a "macro orbital" or 2. maybe not mining, but you can keep one in your main base or natural.
I'm at 5.5k MMR and tvp is my worst by far... 46%. willing to try anything to make the matchup less infuriating.
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On July 10 2018 05:09 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2018 02:46 VengefulTree wrote:
Seems interesting, I always thought on some levels pros keep themselves from building PFs as their third for the same reason they sometimes refuse to build static defense : because it's perceived as a bronze league thing to do, even though it could be very efficient. Reminds me of the blink era, where people would make fun of a bronze leaguer putting a sensor tower in their main before some pros (a pro?) started doing it. I think part of it is down to sheer stubbornness. TY had the audacity to bust out 3CC double armory mech vP off of only a single factory in the semi-finals of GSL. I don't even think he built a starport before the 3CC and double armory... if this is an acceptable way to play in the mind of a pro terran, surely it is not a long stretch to try building a PF at the 3rd? nothing fancy... just your regular plain jane bio build, except you build a PF instead of an orbital. yeah, I reckon that's one of the unwritten rules of things a pro terran can never do... no sensor tower on 2 base... no PF at the third... always wall your main ramp with reactor which is so, so vulnerable to ravager all-in...
So... terrans shouldn't wall in TvZ? Or not build a reactor?
On July 10 2018 01:41 SHODAN wrote:
I've been experimenting with planetary fortress instead of 3rd orbital vP. I make a planetary at my third, planetary at my fourth, then make a 3rd orbital much later and keep it safe in my main base.
cons:
- no third mule to help power up my economy, esp. after trading armies
- no third scan to aid with opportunistic bio drops
- scanning DTs, observers, etc
pros:
- 3CC builds are not strong in the current metagame. I'm always going to build my 3rd CC after I build 3 raxx or 5 raxx. by the time my third CC is done, I already have my main and natural fully saturated... maybe even over-saturated? so, the 3rd orbital energy is not going to make my 5-raxx timings significantly stronger.
- zealot runbys are removed from the game. walled-off natural, planetary at third... all you have to worry about now is a warp prism. this dramatically reduces the list of threats and things to worry about. now I can focus on actually doing damage and stutter-stepping my front-line bio force.
it just seems like a no-brainer given how strong 3-base gateway / storm / charge timings are in the current metagame... every kr pro I watch struggles to defend their third base from zealot runbys. more often than not, they have to lift their 3rd orbital a bunch of times... they lose SCVs... some even build a bunker and commit 2 bio units to stay in the bunker... some even keep a liberator at their third. why would you sacrifice actual army supply when you have a structure that does the same job better? why rally units to your third when you could be non-stop parade pushing? is the 3rd orbital energy really worth it? I'd like to hear your thoughts
has any pro kr terran at least tried to build a planetary as their 3rd base? even when streaming on ladder? I'd like to see how it looks in a high level game
Building a planetary is a MUCH bigger investment than a full bunker.
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On July 11 2018 07:24 Charoisaur wrote:
...
I'm not saying terrans should or shouldn't do anything. this is just what I do. I don't play in many online cups... but I usually play late at night on EU ladder. this means that I'm often playing the same zerg over and over again in a BoX because there's no other players in the queue. I don't use a barcode, so my zerg opponents know what's coming. I don't build my barracks as part of the main wall vZ, especially not when I spawn in a position where the reactor is exposed. I build the 1st and 2nd depot at the main ramp, leaving the middle spot empty until I know what's coming.
roach / ravager all-in
build the bunker right in the middle of those 2 depots. marines won't get picked off as they spawn from the raxx. reactor won't get destroyed by corrosive biles. chance to save both depots. if you build your raxx at the wall, you will always lose at least 1 depot.
ling / bane all-in
you built your raxx / reactor inside your base, near your command center, so you already have some tight chokes for your hellions / marines. the downside is that you lose 3 depots to the baneling bust instead of 2. the upside is that your reactor is still alive and you can pump 2 x hellions. here's how I structure my base vZ with a typical 2-1-1 opening:
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/XZTgLNZ.jpg)
X = tight wall
<--- = 1 pixel choke
I have 3 narrow chokes for my hellions / marines to defend against line / bane all-in. if you prefer, you can make the factory 1 pixel northwards so that there are only 2 narrow chokes instead of 3.
sometimes I build the factory a little bit further down, like this:
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/FbpC2jX.jpg)
now I have a long narrow corridor for hellions / marines. if I see ling / bane all-in, I can build the bunker in the 3 pixels between my 1st raxx and factory.
the only "downside" to this type of wall-in is that you need to keep your reaper at home longer than usual vZ, assuming that you don't SCV scout. instead of sending the reaper directly across the map, I keep the reaper at home for a while. I send the reaper to my third / fourth to check for proxy hatches, then keep it around my natural for a few seconds before going to check if zerg has taken a third base. I keep it at home until my natural CC is about 70%-75% complete. this is to defend against pool-first lings. even if he goes for the earliest possible roach / ravager, the reaper will spot it before you would typically do the reactor swap. this means that you can pump marines and get the cyclone or tank at the exact same time as you usually would. the bunker just about finishes when the ravagers reach the main ramp. you can also buy time with reaper grenade to make sure it finishes.
I remember Byun losing an important match because he built his techlab at the main ramp, where roaches could easily pick it off. why not build the 3rd supply depot where the add-on usually is?
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On July 11 2018 07:24 Charoisaur wrote:Building a planetary is a MUCH bigger investment than a full bunker.
orbital + bunker + 1 marine + 1 marauder = 400 minerals, 25 gas
planetary fortress = 150 minerals, 150 gas
terran is not starving for gas at this phase of TvP
now consider that you will most likely lose a bunch of SCVs to zealot harass. consider that stalkers can easily snipe an orbital and recall to save his own structures. consider blink / disruptor pressure on your third... gateway timings... storm timings... remember those 2 siege tanks you made earlier in the game, but didn't push with them because he already had charge? well, now you can plop them down on your 3rd. planetary defends against the zealots, siege tanks defend against disruptor / colossus / whatever.
pro toss / zerg players don't have any problem building static. they build spores, spines, shield batteries, cannons... they design their builds around static defense. pro terrans don't want to hear anything about static defense, even when they have one of the best static structures in the game. Maru has tried a 1-base drilling claws widow mine drop build vP... armory requirement, techlab requirement, delayed natural... this is way WAAAAAAY crazier than a planetary fortress 3rd. it just seems bizarre to me that no one has even tried it in a pro game.
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On July 11 2018 08:44 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2018 07:24 Charoisaur wrote:Building a planetary is a MUCH bigger investment than a full bunker. orbital + bunker + 1 marine + 1 marauder = 400 minerals, 25 gas planetary fortress = 150 minerals, 150 gas terran is not starving for gas at this phase of TvP
Orbital = MULEs
Planetary = no MULEs
If you make an orbital, you make your army a bit smaller by committing to a bunker. If you make a planetary, you make it smaller because you don't have MULEs to afford units at the same rate you would normally.
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If any fellow Terrans Diamond 1 or below wants to learn a strategy that'll 100% catch Protosses off guard I've been playing a really ridiculous setup lately at 4.2kmmr where I literally go hellion/tank into cloak banshee and my god these tosses have 0 clue how to defend this bs strategy. I literally played a guy a few hours ago that lost 30+ probes to 6 hellions, and that doesn't even count all the kills my banshees did. Main army basically becomes untouchable because of the mass siege tanks and the hellions kill any chargelots that tries to intervene. If you add vikings into this you'll also shut down any colossus/observer which makes the cloak banshees unkillable.
Only weakness this has from what I've seen is any kind of early cheese + voidray is hard to defend if you don't scout it, but hey. No build/strat is perfect.
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Hey guys, I'm a mech player, i played a couple games against Swarm hosts and boy did I have to work overtime to win them, what's the ideal unit comp to defeat swarmhost play, and is there any tricks besides just attacking them instead? I can upload a reply later if needed.
Basically I just want to know my ideal mech unit comp in LOTV for TVz mech against swarmhosts.
Thanks for your time
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On July 30 2018 00:05 Conut wrote:
Hey guys, I'm a mech player, i played a couple games against Swarm hosts and boy did I have to work overtime to win them, what's the ideal unit comp to defeat swarmhost play, and is there any tricks besides just attacking them instead? I can upload a reply later if needed.
Basically I just want to know my ideal mech unit comp in LOTV for TVz mech against swarmhosts.
Thanks for your time
Against Swarmhosts specifically I've had very good success using Blue-flame Hellions and Thors. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like the ideal composition against Swarmhosts.
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On July 30 2018 01:06 Frudgey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2018 00:05 Conut wrote:
Hey guys, I'm a mech player, i played a couple games against Swarm hosts and boy did I have to work overtime to win them, what's the ideal unit comp to defeat swarmhost play, and is there any tricks besides just attacking them instead? I can upload a reply later if needed.
Basically I just want to know my ideal mech unit comp in LOTV for TVz mech against swarmhosts.
Thanks for your time
Against Swarmhosts specifically I've had very good success using Blue-flame Hellions and Thors. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like the ideal composition against Swarmhosts.
Okay thanks I'll give that a shot because my tanks got ravaged, thanks you!
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On July 30 2018 01:12 Conut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2018 01:06 Frudgey wrote:On July 30 2018 00:05 Conut wrote:
Hey guys, I'm a mech player, i played a couple games against Swarm hosts and boy did I have to work overtime to win them, what's the ideal unit comp to defeat swarmhost play, and is there any tricks besides just attacking them instead? I can upload a reply later if needed.
Basically I just want to know my ideal mech unit comp in LOTV for TVz mech against swarmhosts.
Thanks for your time
Against Swarmhosts specifically I've had very good success using Blue-flame Hellions and Thors. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like the ideal composition against Swarmhosts. Okay thanks I'll give that a shot because my tanks got ravaged, thanks you!
if Z is harassing with the SH and not defending them with the main army then you can make a couple of medivacs and thor drop on top of the SH once you clear the most recent locust wave. it's pretty effective because SH can't shoot up at the medivac and it forces them to either bring the army to defend the SH, which weakens multi prong attacks, or send the SH all the way home instead of positioning them aggressively. if the situation calls for it you can also use medivac thors to defend cliff harassment (like locusts flying into main base) by boosting to the high ground and shooting the locusts out of the air
this is of course a different scenario from early SH roach ravager timings designed to simply crush through your tank count and win the game. in that scenario i think you just have to cover the tanks with blue flame hellbats/SCV pulls to keep them alive long enough to transition to more effective units
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On July 30 2018 01:31 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2018 01:12 Conut wrote:On July 30 2018 01:06 Frudgey wrote:On July 30 2018 00:05 Conut wrote:
Hey guys, I'm a mech player, i played a couple games against Swarm hosts and boy did I have to work overtime to win them, what's the ideal unit comp to defeat swarmhost play, and is there any tricks besides just attacking them instead? I can upload a reply later if needed.
Basically I just want to know my ideal mech unit comp in LOTV for TVz mech against swarmhosts.
Thanks for your time
Against Swarmhosts specifically I've had very good success using Blue-flame Hellions and Thors. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like the ideal composition against Swarmhosts. Okay thanks I'll give that a shot because my tanks got ravaged, thanks you! if Z is harassing with the SH and not defending them with the main army then you can make a couple of medivacs and thor drop on top of the SH once you clear the most recent locust wave. it's pretty effective because SH can't shoot up at the medivac and it forces them to either bring the army to defend the SH, which weakens multi prong attacks, or send the SH all the way home instead of positioning them aggressively. if the situation calls for it you can also use medivac thors to defend cliff harassment (like locusts flying into main base) by boosting to the high ground and shooting the locusts out of the air this is of course a different scenario from early SH roach ravager timings designed to simply crush through your tank count and win the game. in that scenario i think you just have to cover the tanks with blue flame hellbats/SCV pulls to keep them alive long enough to transition to more effective units
Cool usually I don't even make medvacs but maybe I should start, would probably make my hellbats last a lot longer as well, thanks for the advice guys!
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any of you guys tried gas-stealing vs protoss? I've been playing around with it. I send the supply depot SCV to gas steal, send another SCV to engi bay block, while taking double gas at home. 1 marine, reactor cyclones off of 1-base, then react to what he's doing. immortal / warp prism? switch the barracks onto the reactor, factory on the techlab, viking 1st, liberator 2nd, and play as if it's a proxo robo all-in. if toss expands and attempts to play normal, I continue pumping out cyclones... maybe proxy the starport... cloak banshee, liberator, the world's your oyster. I like it because it lets you count their probes constantly throughout the early game, keep an eye on their building placements, and make the most of terran's high-tech units... terran just has more chance to win if you keep the economies and army size low as possible.
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Sometimes zergs go 14 pool in TvZ and run lings by my scouting reaper, reaching my low ground CC when it's 3/4ths of the way done. I found that sending a scout SCV when my rax finishes can usually scout the finished pool so I can keep my reaper at home and deal with it and lose at most one SCV, but is there a better way to scout for and deal with this?
I also notice streamers like Winter will forgo their scouting SCV sometimes in TvZ, and still send their reaper straight across the map, but in my experience I lose every game against a 14 pool when I don't scout with my SCV. Is that a calculated risk, or is there a way to defend against this that I'm not seeing?
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On August 09 2018 16:20 Fencar wrote:
I also notice streamers like Winter will forgo their scouting SCV sometimes in TvZ, and still send their reaper straight across the map, but in my experience I lose every game against a 14 pool when I don't scout with my SCV. Is that a calculated risk, or is there a way to defend against this that I'm not seeing?
Not really. Whether you lose the CC to 6 lings or are forced to pull workers to save it, it's better for the Zerg here. You can either send the SCV or blindly keep the reaper home until the CC finishes.
Also not sure why you would face 14pool. 16pool and 17pool still can get a kill on the building SCV with 2 lings or force CC cancel with 6.
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On August 09 2018 16:56 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2018 16:20 Fencar wrote:
I also notice streamers like Winter will forgo their scouting SCV sometimes in TvZ, and still send their reaper straight across the map, but in my experience I lose every game against a 14 pool when I don't scout with my SCV. Is that a calculated risk, or is there a way to defend against this that I'm not seeing? Not really. Whether you lose the CC to 6 lings or are forced to pull workers to save it, it's better for the Zerg here. You can either send the SCV or blindly keep the reaper home until the CC finishes. Also not sure why you would face 14pool. 16pool and 17pool still can get a kill on the building SCV with 2 lings or force CC cancel with 6.
14pool is usually a cheesier version that tries to go up the ramp and target down the reactor/run past lowered depots before killing the SCV
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EPT
