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On January 27 2018 21:38 AleXusher wrote:
Is there any way to win TvP currenty with bio play? I see it not working at all. No matter if i go 2 base allin or try to play macro. They always have more units, more worker, more bases and better upgrades. Is chrono that good?
Take this comment with a grain of salt but until you're 6K MMR There is no reason to lose to protoss. They have mechanical flaws just like you so work on fixing your play up.
However as for winning against protoss ive found it very effective to incorporate a lot of +1 +1 timings and widowmines with 6-8 medivacs before I go into libs. I feel like you need a very strong bio presence and then you can transition into your later ghost liberator phase. I either open for a fast 3CC Or I go for widow drop into a stim combat +1 +1 timing (Has concussive too) Anyways about 8:30 try to have ghost academy or lib range and then 9:30 lib range or ghost acad based on which you skipped
(For reference im at 5.4K mmr and all of my winrates are positive)
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What is the answer to a fast 1-base cannon rush into proxy shield batteries and void rays?
I do not think I have ever defeated this strategy and I have no idea what the correct response is.
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On January 29 2018 00:23 MockHamill wrote:
What is the answer to a fast 1-base cannon rush into proxy shield batteries and void rays?
I do not think I have ever defeated this strategy and I have no idea what the correct response is.
something ive been trying is marine cyclone and getting the cyclone anti air buff..
It is decent
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What is the best way to counter mass Carriers playing mech?
I did try few Thors (4/6) + Vik/Libs + WM + Ghosts (3/4) for EMPs but didn't work.
Can I be sucessful with such comp with a more fine tunned control or the problem is the comp?
Thanks in advance.
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FeelSadMan
Life of Terran is rough  One misclick and entire army dead
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On February 03 2018 03:30 dHsn wrote:
What is the best way to counter mass Carriers playing mech?
I did try few Thors (4/6) + Vik/Libs + WM + Ghosts (3/4) for EMPs but didn't work.
Can I be sucessful with such comp with a more fine tunned control or the problem is the comp?
Thanks in advance.
Mass Carriers (with HT/Tempest support) is almost uncountable, I do not think there is any way to win consistently as Terran given similar skill levels.
What you can do however if making sure that you keep his carrier count low. For this I have found mass cyclones with the rapid fire upgrade the best solution. You need 3 cyclones for every carrier and you need to attack while his carrier count is low (3-6 carriers). If you do this you can typically overwhelm him.
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On February 03 2018 21:17 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2018 03:30 dHsn wrote:
What is the best way to counter mass Carriers playing mech?
I did try few Thors (4/6) + Vik/Libs + WM + Ghosts (3/4) for EMPs but didn't work.
Can I be sucessful with such comp with a more fine tunned control or the problem is the comp?
Thanks in advance. Mass Carriers (with HT/Tempest support) is almost uncountable, I do not think there is any way to win consistently as Terran given similar skill levels. What you can do however if making sure that you keep his carrier count low. For this I have found mass cyclones with the rapid fire upgrade the best solution. You need 3 cyclones for every carrier and you need to attack while his carrier count is low (3-6 carriers). If you do this you can typically overwhelm him.
I will try that while raiding his bases with some speed Banshees to take down nexus and save Hellbats to tank for Cycs.
I was considering Thor drop but speed Banshee is way more fast and 6 of them can take a nexus down real quick.
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So which of the current maps should be vetoed if you use mech?
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France776 Posts
On February 03 2018 03:30 dHsn wrote:
What is the best way to counter mass Carriers playing mech?
I did try few Thors (4/6) + Vik/Libs + WM + Ghosts (3/4) for EMPs but didn't work.
Can I be sucessful with such comp with a more fine tunned control or the problem is the comp?
Thanks in advance.
The only things that can stand up versus carriers are either BCs or libs.
Vikings are very vulnerable to pretty much everything, and should only be used in small numbers for added damage.
Cyclones don't have enough burst damage unless you vastly outnumber him.
Thors are too derpy ; they can fight carriers with a bit of forward hit & attack, but any ground buffer will rip them apart while they don't fire a shot.
Haven't tried BCs since the patch, but before that they weren't cost or supply effective against stalkers, so they weren't a realistic solution. Might work now.
Libs appear to be a decently reliable way to do it. The ideal army ends up being 15+ libs, 6-10 vikings (to ensure a bit of targeted burst damage / act as a target for the interceptors), 6-10 tanks, and fill the blanks with whatever you like. Ghosts are obviously great versus HTs (and everything else), cyclones are a decent all around unit, hellions can be used if he doesn't have any other grond with his HTs. A few mines can help but are fairly random. You can also use thors as your main ground unit, but they get demolished by immortals because they waste a lt of shots on the air and derp a lot.
The libs work by destroying the interceptor ; you basically keep them right behind your army (this is where a couple of thors can help, protoss will often focus fire them) until he launches his interceptors. At this point, you A-move the libs towards him and let them destroy the interceptors. You can use hold position above your army, to ensure they hit the interceptors. Once most of these are gone, move forward again and focus fire in the middle of the clump.
High templars will need their own solution ; hellions as mentioned, ghosts if you can handle the extra micro / positionning (gotta love these 300 range observers... and the flying maphacks that are oracles. Keep them well behind), or splitting over 37 screens (which will fuck up your ability to kill interceptors, and is more of an anti tempest thing).
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On February 03 2018 03:30 dHsn wrote:
What is the best way to counter mass Carriers playing mech?
I did try few Thors (4/6) + Vik/Libs + WM + Ghosts (3/4) for EMPs but didn't work.
Can I be sucessful with such comp with a more fine tunned control or the problem is the comp?
Thanks in advance.
Main problem with the carriers is that they synergize extremely well with every other protoss unit on the ground. It's the fact that you can either try to kill the interceptors to prevent them from killing your troops, at the risk of the carriers surviving and increasing their numbers, either try to kill the carriers which is pretty hard with the 14 leash range and the sheer amount of HPs and armor they have.
Basically zealots/archons overwhelm hellbats, meaning you need enough firepower on the ground to fight through them. Especially since there's certainly immortals that you need to deal with behind them. And while your army is busy fighting those, the interceptors are able to dish out their ridiculous DPS.
If you face late game mass carriers, know that BCs actually counter carriers. 2 yamatos per carrier, and the auto attack actually kills interceptors.
If it's earlier in the game, there are few options :
- landing 3 reactored starport and pump out 15+ vikings very fast, and go for an allin. If you don't suceed at killing the protoss, you're probably dead (since vikings die to storms/phenixes/stalkers/tempests in an extreme fashion)
- building 2 liberators per carrier will insure that the liberators killl the interceptors somewhat reliably. If you manage to prevent protoss from researchin
- try to limit carriers count early on with cyclones (with upgrade), which only works if you manage to kill the first round of carriers and keep their count to less than 3-4. The good thing about cyclones is that you "only" need 3 lock ons with the upgrade to kill a carrier pretty fast, and they have 7 initial/15 max range so the 14 leash range isn't an issue. The main issue is that cyclones are expensive, need a lot of micro to lock onto carriers, and that they're not supply efficient (9 supply of cyclones needed to kill 6 supply of carriers).
- if your opponent is stupid you can manage to kill carriers with thors. But with 14 leash range on a flying unit against a 10 range big unit having trouble positionning itself correctly, the fight is just impossible. Don't try to kill the interceptors with thors (they're terrible at it), just use high impact and try to shoot at the carriers
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Theres 0 reason to go mech vs protoss.. There isn't an answer to tempests. Also a competent protoss will hit a blink charge timing that stops you from getting a third for a long time. Additionally Carriers require like 6 vikings to beat and if you're trying to kill interceptors it makes more sense to get a thor or widows not a liberator. Liberators are twice the gas for less than half the damage. The reason why people no longer opt to go for mech vs protoss is that it is more of a gimmick and derp thing or they like mech alot. However if I had to give you a counter, Just go for BC's.. 2 Yamato's will kill a carrier so in a head to head fight of 200/200 carrier and bc armies clashing the BC's can cut the carrier count in half assuming its like equal number. As for dealing with the tempests you'd want shredder missiles and vikings maybe 3 thors but thats super expensive
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On February 06 2018 01:33 Ryu3600 wrote:
Theres 0 reason to go mech vs protoss.. There isn't an answer to tempests. Also a competent protoss will hit a blink charge timing that stops you from getting a third for a long time. Additionally Carriers require like 6 vikings to beat and if you're trying to kill interceptors it makes more sense to get a thor or widows not a liberator. Liberators are twice the gas for less than half the damage. The reason why people no longer opt to go for mech vs protoss is that it is more of a gimmick and derp thing or they like mech alot. However if I had to give you a counter, Just go for BC's.. 2 Yamato's will kill a carrier so in a head to head fight of 200/200 carrier and bc armies clashing the BC's can cut the carrier count in half assuming its like equal number. As for dealing with the tempests you'd want shredder missiles and vikings maybe 3 thors but thats super expensive
I always find this kind of reasoning hilarious. Bio also doesn't have an answer to mass air + storm and struggles to take a third against stalker / zealot timings, why bother playing bio?
I'm not going to argue Mech vs Protoss is just as good as bio vs protoss, but it's certainly not as bad as you're making it out to be.
On February 03 2018 21:17 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2018 03:30 dHsn wrote:
What is the best way to counter mass Carriers playing mech?
I did try few Thors (4/6) + Vik/Libs + WM + Ghosts (3/4) for EMPs but didn't work.
Can I be sucessful with such comp with a more fine tunned control or the problem is the comp?
Thanks in advance. Mass Carriers (with HT/Tempest support) is almost uncountable, I do not think there is any way to win consistently as Terran given similar skill levels. What you can do however if making sure that you keep his carrier count low. For this I have found mass cyclones with the rapid fire upgrade the best solution. You need 3 cyclones for every carrier and you need to attack while his carrier count is low (3-6 carriers). If you do this you can typically overwhelm him.
This is the answer I use, to great effect. Build up a big army and be constantly scanning to see when the air transition is coming. I win almost every game I play vs Protoss who try to transition into air by doing this. Also adding in a couple Thors helps a ton as they have very high armor and you should be at an upgrade advantage which makes them very tanky vs Carriers. I actually never make air units playing mech vs toss and have a very high winrate.
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guys we need a +4 bio attack upgrade!
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When playing mech in TvP I have a problem with getting and securing my 3rd against timing attacks. It is either a full attack on my 3rd or a warp prism in my main while attacking my 3rd. This attack typically consists of immortal/zealot/stalker/sentries. Since you have to invest so much resources in factories/armories Protoss always have a larger army in this situation.
I have found that having cyclones (while good against early stalkers and warp-prisms) is bad in this situation since they always use guardian shield. Tank are obviously good but the problem is having enough tanks and enough meat shield for the tanks.
I typically go Factory (Reactor), Factory (Tech), Factory (Tech) followed by double armories.
But what is the optimal order of production facilities in order to hold this, and what is the optimal composition in this situation?
I am almost considering going up to 4 factories (2 Tech, 2 Reactor) before adding the armories just to get enough units to be able to secure the 3rd. But then you will get behind Protoss in upgrades.
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On February 07 2018 00:07 MockHamill wrote:
When playing mech in TvP I have a problem with getting and securing my 3rd against timing attacks. It is either a full attack on my 3rd or a warp prism in my main while attacking my 3rd. This attack typically consists of immortal/zealot/stalker/sentries. Since you have to invest so much resources in factories/armories Protoss always have a larger army in this situation.
I have found that having cyclones (while good against early stalkers and warp-prisms) is bad in this situation since they always use guardian shield. Tank are obviously good but the problem is having enough tanks and enough meat shield for the tanks.
I typically go Factory (Reactor), Factory (Tech), Factory (Tech) followed by double armories.
But what is the optimal order of production facilities in order to hold this, and what is the optimal composition in this situation?
I am almost considering going up to 4 factories (2 Tech, 2 Reactor) before adding the armories just to get enough units to be able to secure the 3rd. But then you will get behind Protoss in upgrades.
It really depends on the situation of the game for me, but I typically make only 4 cyclones early vs stalker openings (I make more vs adept / stargate) then add on 2 fact then 2 armory then 2 fact and have pure hellion / tank production. When holding this kind of stalker / zealot / warp prism push, I keep the cyclones in the main to deal with the warp prism and my tanks spread out between the third and natural while hellions / hellbats buffer. I also don't even bother trying to take my third until I see Protoss starting theirs, and prioritize blue flame and keeping hellions at home and alive when I see large gateway counts without lots of gas. Depending on how fast the attack is, I might skip 1/1 upgrades and/or not get add-ons on the 4/5 fact. I also skip starport entirely.
One of the big things to scout for is gas at the natural and third, if Protoss skips gas at the natural you can be 100% sure they are being aggressive with gateway and if they skip gas at the third it's very likely they're going to be aggressive with a gateway heavy comp.
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On February 07 2018 15:29 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2018 00:07 MockHamill wrote:
When playing mech in TvP I have a problem with getting and securing my 3rd against timing attacks. It is either a full attack on my 3rd or a warp prism in my main while attacking my 3rd. This attack typically consists of immortal/zealot/stalker/sentries. Since you have to invest so much resources in factories/armories Protoss always have a larger army in this situation.
I have found that having cyclones (while good against early stalkers and warp-prisms) is bad in this situation since they always use guardian shield. Tank are obviously good but the problem is having enough tanks and enough meat shield for the tanks.
I typically go Factory (Reactor), Factory (Tech), Factory (Tech) followed by double armories.
But what is the optimal order of production facilities in order to hold this, and what is the optimal composition in this situation?
I am almost considering going up to 4 factories (2 Tech, 2 Reactor) before adding the armories just to get enough units to be able to secure the 3rd. But then you will get behind Protoss in upgrades.
It really depends on the situation of the game for me, but I typically make only 4 cyclones early vs stalker openings (I make more vs adept / stargate) then add on 2 fact then 2 armory then 2 fact and have pure hellion / tank production. When holding this kind of stalker / zealot / warp prism push, I keep the cyclones in the main to deal with the warp prism and my tanks spread out between the third and natural while hellions / hellbats buffer. I also don't even bother trying to take my third until I see Protoss starting theirs, and prioritize blue flame and keeping hellions at home and alive when I see large gateway counts without lots of gas. Depending on how fast the attack is, I might skip 1/1 upgrades and/or not get add-ons on the 4/5 fact. I also skip starport entirely. One of the big things to scout for is gas at the natural and third, if Protoss skips gas at the natural you can be 100% sure they are being aggressive with gateway and if they skip gas at the third it's very likely they're going to be aggressive with a gateway heavy comp.
Really good info, especially on the gas. What are your addons for each of the 5 factories?
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On February 07 2018 18:40 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2018 15:29 Pursuit_ wrote:On February 07 2018 00:07 MockHamill wrote:
When playing mech in TvP I have a problem with getting and securing my 3rd against timing attacks. It is either a full attack on my 3rd or a warp prism in my main while attacking my 3rd. This attack typically consists of immortal/zealot/stalker/sentries. Since you have to invest so much resources in factories/armories Protoss always have a larger army in this situation.
I have found that having cyclones (while good against early stalkers and warp-prisms) is bad in this situation since they always use guardian shield. Tank are obviously good but the problem is having enough tanks and enough meat shield for the tanks.
I typically go Factory (Reactor), Factory (Tech), Factory (Tech) followed by double armories.
But what is the optimal order of production facilities in order to hold this, and what is the optimal composition in this situation?
I am almost considering going up to 4 factories (2 Tech, 2 Reactor) before adding the armories just to get enough units to be able to secure the 3rd. But then you will get behind Protoss in upgrades.
It really depends on the situation of the game for me, but I typically make only 4 cyclones early vs stalker openings (I make more vs adept / stargate) then add on 2 fact then 2 armory then 2 fact and have pure hellion / tank production. When holding this kind of stalker / zealot / warp prism push, I keep the cyclones in the main to deal with the warp prism and my tanks spread out between the third and natural while hellions / hellbats buffer. I also don't even bother trying to take my third until I see Protoss starting theirs, and prioritize blue flame and keeping hellions at home and alive when I see large gateway counts without lots of gas. Depending on how fast the attack is, I might skip 1/1 upgrades and/or not get add-ons on the 4/5 fact. I also skip starport entirely. One of the big things to scout for is gas at the natural and third, if Protoss skips gas at the natural you can be 100% sure they are being aggressive with gateway and if they skip gas at the third it's very likely they're going to be aggressive with a gateway heavy comp. Really good info, especially on the gas. What are your addons for each of the 5 factories?
1 reactor 2 tech lab on the first three, 2 reactor 3 tech lab on 5 fact, 2 reactor 5 tech on 7 fact, 3 reactor 6 tech lab on 9 fact.
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Have to say, thanks for the wealth of information Pursuit_. I've been using that TvP Innovation Mech build you posted awhile back and it's been working pretty well for me.
Thank you again for your insight.
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Have to say, thanks for the wealth of information Pursuit_. I've been using that TvP Innovation Mech build you posted awhile back and it's been working pretty well for me.
Thank you again for your insight.
Please, share the build.
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EPT
