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Northern Ireland27306 Posts
Hey all, was wondering if you could help me out. Been a no -player for quite some time, and I haven’t even been following the game for the entirety of Legacy thus far
I’m really only looking recommendations for a solid, middle of the road opener for each matchup to give me a platform I figure the rest out over time. There’s a lot of interesting stuff here but equally a lot to familiarise myself with, and the OP isn’t expansive.
Whatever the relatively economic but safe openers would be nowadays. For reference in WoL I was able to resolutely go 1 rax gasless FE in all matchups and make that work up to a point, when I played P in HoTS I went 1 gate FE every game vs T and FFE vs Zerg every game.
Thanks in advance for any help
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So, what I do in every match up is:
13 Supply Depot -> Refinery as soon as I can afford it -> Barracks -> Orbital Command (+ Reactor on the barracks) -> Command Center.
And then I go from there, doing whatever tickles my fancy based on the match up. I think you _could_ go 1 barracks gasless expand, but I think that could leave you vulnerable to one base tech openings (I'm thinking versus Terran specifically). I haven't tried it myself, so it could work, but the only reason I say that is tech openings give me troubles even with the build I do.
I think strictly speaking though, one barracks expand with one reaper is a very economically friendly and safe opening. I'd get second opinions though, as I play very sub-optimally - like doing factory only, no starport plays versus Zerg.
Hope this helps though!
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TvZ Hellbat Marine Timing
0:17 Depot
0:40 Rax
0:44 Gas
1:28 Reaper & Orbital
1:39 CC
1:58 Marine
2:09 Factory
2:18 Refinery
2:22 Rax Reactor
2:52 Starport
3:04 2x Hellion (Up to 6)
3:08 Marine (Up to 3)
3:30 Medivac
3:35 Armory
4:08 Liberator
4:10 Resume Hellion Prod
---------@4:25 You should be at enemy base and finish morph-------------
4:58 Starport Techlab
5:08 3rd CC
5:17 Banshee (Up to 2) & Cloak
5:20 2x Refinery
5:30 2x Factory
5:38 +1 Mech Attack
5:40 Rax Techlab
6:15 Factory Techlab, Rax Reactor
6:45 2x Thor
7:10 2x Medivac
7:18 2x Refinery
7:24 1x Armory
7:30 +2 Attack
7:40 1x Ebay
---------@7:50 leave with 2 thors in medivacs----------
7:55 2x Viking, 2x Tank, 2x Hellion
8:05 Blue Flame
8:15 2x Factory
8:45 +1 armor
9:10 Factory Reactor
9:20 4th CC
10:35 +3 Attack +2 Ship Armor
11:00 P.F & Sensor towers (2x)
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You can reaper expand safely in TvP and TvZ and go from there. In TvT it can be more risky and more tricky to make work vs heavy tech opneings or proxies, but I do it regularly and do OK with it (4300 MMR for reference).
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On January 17 2018 18:50 LoneYoShi wrote:
You can reaper expand safely in TvP and TvZ and go from there. In TvT it can be more risky and more tricky to make work vs heavy tech opneings or proxies, but I do it regularly and do OK with it (4300 MMR for reference).
Reaper expo works in all 3 MU's the gas timing and follow up is all you change (Gas First/Rax First and 1-1-1 follow up or 3rax follow up) Otherwise like reaper expo is fine but to give the most standard like openings it is usually something like
TvZ: Reaper expo into Hellions +Starport unit
TvP: Reaper expo into 3rax or 1-1-1
TvT: Reaper(s) into Hellion/Cyclone and Banshee/Viking/Raven
TvT is stylistic some people go mass cyclone, some people go banshees some go Viking raven it is preference based for me personally I like opening 2Reaper,3Hellion into 3CC and 1-3-1
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Hi all.
Thought I would share my match up notes atm. 
I am struggling with TvT at the moment, so any solid consistent safe build orders let me know. The matches where I tend to have the most success, is when I go full bio and just go hard on the upgrades.
But 1 wrong move and you can lose to a few tanks...
On the TvP side of things I have been experimenting with more and more with mainly bio with alot of widow mines and it seems to be working quite well. I am Gold 1, and a lot of Protoss players at this level haven't got to a stage where they use effective detection with their army.  . But again I find upgrades is the key to keep their army at bay.
TvZ I have the best win rate. I just go pretty standard reaper expand into a lot of bio. If I am feeling cheesy and I scout that they have expanded. I go double barracks with reactors as early as possible and just conga line marines into their base. This wins like 90% of the time if they have gone hatch first.
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On January 18 2018 19:08 xander_428 wrote:Hi all. Thought I would share my match up notes atm. I am struggling with TvT at the moment, so any solid consistent safe build orders let me know. The matches where I tend to have the most success, is when I go full bio and just go hard on the upgrades. But 1 wrong move and you can lose to a few tanks... On the TvP side of things I have been experimenting with more and more with mainly bio with alot of widow mines and it seems to be working quite well. I am Gold 1, and a lot of Protoss players at this level haven't got to a stage where they use effective detection with their army. . But again I find upgrades is the key to keep their army at bay. TvZ I have the best win rate. I just go pretty standard reaper expand into a lot of bio. If I am feeling cheesy and I scout that they have expanded. I go double barracks with reactors as early as possible and just conga line marines into their base. This wins like 90% of the time if they have gone hatch first.
Tangentially related to your post, but I feel like people struggle to deal with mines up to the Diamond level (at least). I do a pretty heavy Tank/Mine style in both TvP and TvT and the mines seem to do quite a bit of work.
Obviously I'm just one person, so don't take what I with a few grains of salt, but that has certainly been my "experience". Cheeky Widow Mine usage can go a long ways, in my humble opinion.
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On January 18 2018 23:59 Frudgey wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2018 19:08 xander_428 wrote:Hi all. Thought I would share my match up notes atm. I am struggling with TvT at the moment, so any solid consistent safe build orders let me know. The matches where I tend to have the most success, is when I go full bio and just go hard on the upgrades. But 1 wrong move and you can lose to a few tanks... On the TvP side of things I have been experimenting with more and more with mainly bio with alot of widow mines and it seems to be working quite well. I am Gold 1, and a lot of Protoss players at this level haven't got to a stage where they use effective detection with their army. . But again I find upgrades is the key to keep their army at bay. TvZ I have the best win rate. I just go pretty standard reaper expand into a lot of bio. If I am feeling cheesy and I scout that they have expanded. I go double barracks with reactors as early as possible and just conga line marines into their base. This wins like 90% of the time if they have gone hatch first. Tangentially related to your post, but I feel like people struggle to deal with mines up to the Diamond level (at least). I do a pretty heavy Tank/Mine style in both TvP and TvT and the mines seem to do quite a bit of work. Obviously I'm just one person, so don't take what I with a few grains of salt, but that has certainly been my "experience". Cheeky Widow Mine usage can go a long ways, in my humble opinion.
That’s sort of the problem is that once you get up to a certain level the style you are talking about becomes pretty terrible.
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Yeah,
Very true. My tank play isn't very good, that is what I am trying to work on at the moment so tend to mix it up where I can.
going to make mines/tanks a focus and find a balance between both over the next couple weeks in my TvPs and TvTs. .
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On January 19 2018 10:26 Kovzirg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2018 23:59 Frudgey wrote:On January 18 2018 19:08 xander_428 wrote:Hi all. Thought I would share my match up notes atm. I am struggling with TvT at the moment, so any solid consistent safe build orders let me know. The matches where I tend to have the most success, is when I go full bio and just go hard on the upgrades. But 1 wrong move and you can lose to a few tanks... On the TvP side of things I have been experimenting with more and more with mainly bio with alot of widow mines and it seems to be working quite well. I am Gold 1, and a lot of Protoss players at this level haven't got to a stage where they use effective detection with their army. . But again I find upgrades is the key to keep their army at bay. TvZ I have the best win rate. I just go pretty standard reaper expand into a lot of bio. If I am feeling cheesy and I scout that they have expanded. I go double barracks with reactors as early as possible and just conga line marines into their base. This wins like 90% of the time if they have gone hatch first. Tangentially related to your post, but I feel like people struggle to deal with mines up to the Diamond level (at least). I do a pretty heavy Tank/Mine style in both TvP and TvT and the mines seem to do quite a bit of work. Obviously I'm just one person, so don't take what I with a few grains of salt, but that has certainly been my "experience". Cheeky Widow Mine usage can go a long ways, in my humble opinion. That’s sort of the problem is that once you get up to a certain level the style you are talking about becomes pretty terrible.
No disagreement there. There's obviously a reason why you don't see that kind of play style at higher levels, though I have fun with it.
That said, you're absolutely right - it's a very sub optimal way to play.
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if you guys wanna improve just watch a pro, find out what their style is and figure out what part of that style you like for an example for TvZ I copy INnoVation and Maru.
I like INnoVation's early to mid game of TvZ where he hits deadly timings and pushes back / picks off stuff to enhance his timing and then I like copying maru in the late game. His use of tanks bio and ghost lib is very solid so I try to transition into a style similar to his after 9:00-10:00
Additionally in TvT I copy Maru for biotank and go for a defensive 3CC Biotank style or 2rax into mech otherwise when I go standard I open banshees into mech and (Soon again) Ravens into Biotank off of what INno's openers and builds are.
It is honestly just finding what you like in a player seeing how often it works and saying "Ok this strategy is solid, what can I copy? where do I start and how do I want to work on getting closer to where x player is"
Unfortunately everyone did this for the 2-1-1 to copy ByuN but the 2-1-1 is the type of build that if you didnt do it perfectly it wouldn't be as effective and at the point you'd be doing it perfectly you'd be at a level where it is not effective as the Zergs know right away how to defend it.
But right now if I had to say the best 3 builds
it'd probably be
TvT: 2Rax into Mech
TvZ: Hellion Liberator
TvP: Quick 3rdCC into Bio
Take note: That Hellions have always been in the meta for TvZ since HotS and the fact that everyone still chooses to use them today says alot. As for TvP 3Rax Openers or quick 3rd openers were very common as well the only different thing id say is TvT. Mech has evolved a lot and has become much more aggressive with the new discovery of aggressive mech play styles and the addition of the liberator
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I have a general TvT question - what's the best way to break Tank lines (on a general level)?
Is it to gain air control and then to use Liberators?
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I have a general TvT question - what's the best way to break Tank lines (on a general level)?
Is it to gain air control and then to use Liberators?
It is never simple once they are in position. Usually libs are a good option or a great engagement with bio (flank + drop on top of them) can do the trick. example of byun doing it.
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On January 20 2018 13:55 Frudgey wrote:
I have a general TvT question - what's the best way to break Tank lines (on a general level)?
Is it to gain air control and then to use Liberators?
I too am interested in this.
I win like 95% of my TvT (in silver) because my macro is usually vastly better than typical terran silver. I usually have them contained in their natural, but I can't finish them because they have enough tanks/turrets to push in without losing entire armies. I feel like I shouldnt allow the game to drag out so much when I have such a upper hand. What's the best thing to do in these situations? Just wait them out or is there a good way to crack them open?
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I also would like to get a better grasp of dealing with tank lines, especially pushing into a defending player.
I dislike playing That and especially versus tanks so much, I am contemplating just leaving the game when I play vs another Terran. ( Scrub diamond lvl btw)
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Unfortunately there isn't really a surefire way to break a Terran player who decides to turtle with tanks and turrets. The best / safest bet is to soft contain, make sensor towers at home to deal with drops and make sure they don't have a hidden expansion and take a large economic lead. If you're determined to try breaking your opponent however, here are a couple ideas
-Doom Drop
-Air Control (Vikings) + Libs / Banshee
-Raven Interference Matrix
Really though, patience is the best option.
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On January 25 2018 04:49 Pursuit_ wrote:
Unfortunately there isn't really a surefire way to break a Terran player who decides to turtle with tanks and turrets. The best / safest bet is to soft contain, make sensor towers at home to deal with drops and make sure they don't have a hidden expansion and take a large economic lead. If you're determined to try breaking your opponent however, here are a couple ideas
-Doom Drop
-Air Control (Vikings) + Libs / Banshee
-Raven Interference Matrix
Really though, patience is the best option.
Yeah, best solution is to contain him on a low amount of bases (2 or 3) while you out-expand him. Use that gas to switch to air, and then either slow-push him with libs and tanks (libs with range to take out his tanks until he backs behind his turrets, then tanks to shoot the turrets down, then libs again, etc...). Or you can go for a few BCs and teleport into his production (behind his turret ring). It's more risky (if he has lots of vikings, definitely don't do that) but can be a tad quicker to end the game.
Either way, there's no "quick way" and you're in for a long game. Don't forget to work on your upgrades !
I generally avoid doom dropping because if he reacts well to it and cleans you up, he has an option to counter attack or expand after it. It's a potential kill-move, but it can also backfire spectacularly (talking from experience).
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On January 25 2018 04:49 Pursuit_ wrote:
Unfortunately there isn't really a surefire way to break a Terran player who decides to turtle with tanks and turrets. The best / safest bet is to soft contain, make sensor towers at home to deal with drops and make sure they don't have a hidden expansion and take a large economic lead. If you're determined to try breaking your opponent however, here are a couple ideas
-Doom Drop
-Air Control (Vikings) + Libs / Banshee
-Raven Interference Matrix
Really though, patience is the best option.
Best solution against a turtly terran is to understand that the best army in the game against mech is ranged liberator + mass vikings.
So just take a lot of bases and out produce him (get 4-5 tanks to clean up turrets when you're pushing into him).
For instance if you go for bio on 2 bases and see your opponent is going mech and turtling, just take a 3rd and a 4rth, drop him and keep him contained with siege tanks, and tech up to ranged liberators/vikings.
If he's going for marine tanks turtling on 2 bases dies too pretty much everything that's produced out of 3 bases.
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Is there any way to win TvP currenty with bio play? I see it not working at all. No matter if i go 2 base allin or try to play macro. They always have more units, more worker, more bases and better upgrades. Is chrono that good?
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EPT
