EPTwhich maps would you veto in the current map pool as terran and why?
The LotV Terran Help Me Thread - Page 83
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bretfart
114 Posts
which maps would you veto in the current map pool as terran and why? | ||
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Ryu3600
Canada470 Posts
On December 17 2017 05:55 bretfart wrote: hey guys, which maps would you veto in the current map pool as terran and why? Odyssey, too good for Zerg Battle on the boardwalk, Its hard to expo on that map and it is too gimmicky for me personally Blackpink, Nice looking map but atm not so great for Terran. When the map update comes out it will be okay | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Rax-Factory-CC-Starport-CC. Defensive tanks out of the factory, cloak banshees out of the starport. The tanks makes you immune to baneling bust. The tanks combined with the banshee makes you immune to roach/ravager. If the Zerg is not all-inning you use the banshees to snipe worker, force detection, snipe creep tumors etc. Meanwhile the tanks make you safe against counter attacks. I think this build is superior to any early hellion build since you are much safer against baneling busts and fast roach/ravager builds and can still put some pressure on the Zerg with the banshees. Then you just claim 3 bases go up 5 factories and attack with tank/hellbat/thor/banshee, ideally before Hive. If he is Hive produce less tanks, more thors and add mines and vikings to zone out vipers. | ||
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Ryu3600
Canada470 Posts
On December 18 2017 06:39 MockHamill wrote: Ok after some further experimentation I think I have found the best TvZ mech opening (at Diamond level). Rax-Factory-CC-Starport-CC. Defensive tanks out of the factory, cloak banshees out of the starport. The tanks makes you immune to baneling bust. The tanks combined with the banshee makes you immune to roach/ravager. If the Zerg is not all-inning you use the banshees to snipe worker, force detection, snipe creep tumors etc. Meanwhile the tanks make you safe against counter attacks. I think this build is superior to any early hellion build since you are much safer against baneling busts and fast roach/ravager builds and can still put some pressure on the Zerg with the banshees. Then you just claim 3 bases go up 5 factories and attack with tank/hellbat/thor/banshee, ideally before Hive. If he is Hive produce less tanks, more thors and add mines and vikings to zone out vipers. Why not just go Hellion Banshee ?? quicker 3rd CC, Holds baneling busts, can transition properly to hold a ravager all in, has banshees, techs well in 1-3-1 and then 1-5-1. It also the safest build T has vs Zerg. It has great counter pressure, and general pressure depending on which style of it you do (Single viking / single banshee) (2 banshee) | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On December 18 2017 13:00 Ryu3600 wrote: Why not just go Hellion Banshee ?? quicker 3rd CC, Holds baneling busts, can transition properly to hold a ravager all in, has banshees, techs well in 1-3-1 and then 1-5-1. It also the safest build T has vs Zerg. It has great counter pressure, and general pressure depending on which style of it you do (Single viking / single banshee) (2 banshee) Maybe hellion/banshee works better at higher levels. In my experience is just too vunuralbe to certain builds. With tank/banshee I have never experienced a build order loss, I only lose when when my opponent is clearly better than me. Plus my winrate with hellion/banshee is about 40% compared to 60+% with tank/banshee. I also continue banshee production non-stop until he is going Hive so I can discourage him from going down certain tech paths. Swarm Hosts are much easier to deal when you already have a decent banshee count and he is forced to have spores everywhere or lose bases. I guess it depends on your strenghs as a player. I have good macro (for my level) and are good at performing timing attacks. My multitasking sucks though which is why hellions tends to lose me more games than I win since I often screw up my macro or lose the hellions when I use them. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On December 18 2017 21:53 Ej_ wrote: rax/fact/cc without hellions or even cyclones means that the Zerg drones to 70 and kills you with the first wave of roach/hydra/viper What level are we talking? I play at Diamond level and that has not happened even once. My resource collection rate is almost as high as my Zerg opponents. Droning up 70 drones really fast does not happen at my level. What happens occationly is the Zerg taking a really fast 3rd. In those cases I build my 3rd CC almost at the same time, delay tank production and attack his 3rd with my banshee. That is typically enough to prevent non-stop droning. I sometimes think that advice from high level players are bad for lower level players since the meta is completely different. | ||
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Ryu3600
Canada470 Posts
Hellion Banshee doesn't require a lot of multitasking. You don't exactly need to send out the hellions, just the banshees for harass and even then you can just poke until you feel like the Zerg has too much defense against it and just chill w/ em. There is an issue with what you do though. By constantly producing Banshees you weaken yourself to units such as broodlords, vipers and queen hydra. INnoVation himself had a 2port banshee build which for a while seemed pretty good however it was noticed that a good Zerg could just rack-up a very high queen count and then you'd have a lot of units that would end up not making up for the investment you placed into them. In my experience and from what people in higher leagues have told me the best functioning mech builds I've done are opening Hellion Viking Banshee into a double thor drop mid-game then going into blue flame hellions and aiming for a +2/+1 Mech push, or doing a defensive max out and hitting at 10:00 with +2 +2. I've also recently been smurfing and have played a few games in diamond, most cheeses really didn't do much vs me and even if a cheese that hellion banshee could not hold came up I would just switch my build up. However; I can understand that advice from high leagues can be a little less useful as your MMR may be more random but my counter argument to that would be; if someone like INno plays at such a diff meta than you do but then goes to your meta, do you think he will lose? Granted his mechanics are way better but if you follow a build just right + add a bit of change/adaption as you see fit then you'll do fine | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On December 18 2017 06:39 MockHamill wrote: Ok after some further experimentation I think I have found the best TvZ mech opening (at Diamond level). Rax-Factory-CC-Starport-CC. Defensive tanks out of the factory, cloak banshees out of the starport. The tanks makes you immune to baneling bust. The tanks combined with the banshee makes you immune to roach/ravager. If the Zerg is not all-inning you use the banshees to snipe worker, force detection, snipe creep tumors etc. Meanwhile the tanks make you safe against counter attacks. I think this build is superior to any early hellion build since you are much safer against baneling busts and fast roach/ravager builds and can still put some pressure on the Zerg with the banshees. Then you just claim 3 bases go up 5 factories and attack with tank/hellbat/thor/banshee, ideally before Hive. If he is Hive produce less tanks, more thors and add mines and vikings to zone out vipers. Defensive tank without marines / hellions to support should lose to baneling bust. Plus the main reason you want hellions / cyclones / banshees / bio + medivac as your defensive units in TvZ is for the mobility to punish a zerg who just makes 15 drones at a time behind their timing to catch up and play a macro game vs you, possibly even from an economic advantage depending on how many SCVs they killed. With units like tanks you cant do this. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On December 21 2017 04:38 MockHamill wrote: Has anyone found a safe opening for mech in TvP? I've been using this build and TvP has been arguably my best matchup recently. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On December 21 2017 04:47 Pursuit_ wrote: I've been using this build and TvP has been arguably my best matchup recently. Ok I tried the build. It is a good build but it leaves you vulnerable when you switch your factory to a tech lab and start producing tanks. Right then you have only 4 cyclones and are vulnerable to a 2-base timing attack. Since window mines are produced faster now I have experimented with keeping the factory on reactor and produce non-stop window mine while you get your other 2 factories up and running. It seem much more safe, so far. | ||
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LoneYoShi
France1348 Posts
Edit: just saw Ryu's post from 2 pages ago. Thanks man, this does give me info on the meta. However, out of curiosity, I'm still interested in how often mech is played against P. | ||
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Ryu3600
Canada470 Posts
On December 22 2017 19:12 LoneYoShi wrote: Do most people play mech in TvP now ? I don't really follow the pro scene anymore, what's the TvP meta like ? Edit: just saw Ryu's post from 2 pages ago. Thanks man, this does give me info on the meta. However, out of curiosity, I'm still interested in how often mech is played against P. 65% Id say | ||
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Frudgey
Canada3367 Posts
65% of the time? Wowzers. Are you saying that it's viable to go mech in all three match ups? What a time to be alive. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On December 22 2017 22:40 Frudgey wrote: 65% of the time? Wowzers. Are you saying that it's viable to go mech in all three match ups? What a time to be alive. It is still an open question if mech is viable in TvP. It seems to be in early game and mid game but the late game combo of Carrier/Tempest/HT has no realistic answer, except kill them before they get there. | ||
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LoneYoShi
France1348 Posts
On December 22 2017 23:09 MockHamill wrote: It is still an open question if mech is viable in TvP. It seems to be in early game and mid game but the late game combo of Carrier/Tempest/HT has no realistic answer, except kill them before they get there. You have the same problem when playing bio... ^^ Edit: but yeah I can't say I'm surprised at people looking into mech. I've gone from 4M into MMM+ tanks and libs, and once you have 6-8 tanks, you can feel the added firepower. It feels like protoss have to be careful about how/when they engage and they can't just walk all over me like they did when I was playing 4M. | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On December 22 2017 23:09 MockHamill wrote: It is still an open question if mech is viable in TvP. It seems to be in early game and mid game but the late game combo of Carrier/Tempest/HT has no realistic answer, except kill them before they get there. Lategame is somewhat playable with a mix of thors/tank/ghost/BC/Lib/vikings, gradually increasing the sky portion ; the "ideal" composition would be 15+ BCs with a large number of liberators, a dozen of vikings, and a few ghosts. However you essentially can't afford to do anything but overwhelmingly win every single fight. Against a good protoss who doesn't forget to use shield batteries, you WILL be massively behind in eco and probably will be behind on the air transition. If you can survive the first couple of air fights, tho, you should have enough BCs / libs to start mass expanding edit : nevermind, BCs can't win against pure stalkers. Just get 20 tanks, 20 libs, 20 vikings, a few ghosts, and hope for the best. | ||
Poopi
France12967 Posts
I can't beat any protoss atm | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On December 18 2017 18:33 MockHamill wrote: Maybe hellion/banshee works better at higher levels. In my experience is just too vunuralbe to certain builds. With tank/banshee I have never experienced a build order loss, I only lose when when my opponent is clearly better than me. Plus my winrate with hellion/banshee is about 40% compared to 60+% with tank/banshee. I also continue banshee production non-stop until he is going Hive so I can discourage him from going down certain tech paths. Swarm Hosts are much easier to deal when you already have a decent banshee count and he is forced to have spores everywhere or lose bases. I guess it depends on your strenghs as a player. I have good macro (for my level) and are good at performing timing attacks. My multitasking sucks though which is why hellions tends to lose me more games than I win since I often screw up my macro or lose the hellions when I use them. The problem with going early tanks as Terran is that even though it is super safe vs any kind of early aggression from Zerg it lacks pressure and at the same time is not greedy. As a Terran player to not fall behind you have to put on soft pressure or do a greedy build. If Zerg identifies your going tanks he can just pump drones easily secure a third research overlord speed , scout your banshee, counter your banshees and then he is massively ahead. You can't be to safe as Terran for this reason because a competent Zerg will identify how cautious you are being and skyrocket in economy. You need to put some light pressure on with hellions, you need to make Zerg at least think that a hellbat Allin could potentially be coming and you need to take your expansion at a reasonable time or Zerg will outscale you than crush you latter on. With that being said if you are only seeing allins out of Zerg than I think opening tanks is reasonable sometimes when I only see allins and I'm playing Protoss I go 2 gate so I don't have a chance of loosing to early pools. Just understand that if you face macro zergs you are putting yourself at a disadvantage. | ||
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