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immediately throw down 2nd raxx.
send 1 scv to chase probe. don't attack the pylon.
send 4 scvs to attack each cannon. they will go down very quick, even faster when first marine pops.
build 1 bunker (even if this means delayed orbital)
If you mess up your defense, lift command center and barracks to third and try again.
counter attack with marine/scv
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HI everyone,
I usually play a Mech/Sky Terran strategy against TvZ, and found it pretty successful against Ultras, Broods, Vipers, etc. But I am now finding with the new SwarmHost, I'm really struggling. I'm trying different compositions, and I find that Sky Terran units are able to a certain degree fight against the SwarmHost, but in general, I find that I am always behind a Zerg that is good at attacking with the swarm hosts, then running away, rinse and repeat. The damage the Swarmhosts do to everything (buildings, SCVs, and army i.e. tanks) I just can't keep up with. Anyone have any suggestions?
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On June 06 2016 04:26 NexT_SC2 wrote:oh...so how do you deal with cannon rush? I haven't played one in so long...
there are two types of cannon rush:
(1) distance rush, in which toss starts cannons at your ramp (or on some low ground relative to your main base) and creeping toward your CC
(2) mineral rush, in which toss uses the minerals at your mineral line and (usually) three pylons to create a walled off space where it's possible to fit a cannon. (because this cannon is walled off, your scvs would have to first go through one of the pylons making up his wall before they could hit the cannon; even if you got through one pylon, the attackable surface area on the cannon would be limited.)
i'll leave it to better players than me re: dealing with case (2) - i.e., mineral rush. if toss is able to get down a three pylon wall - i haven't been able to hold my main if i let toss do this. the easiest solution is to simply be wary of a very early probe that goes behind your mineral patch on maps where this is possible. if you patrol or hold position an scv in one of these wall-in locations, toss won't be able to complete a wall-off.
re: case (1), the toss's goal is to creep cannons such that they either hit your mining scvs or your command center. so our primary goal is to stop this creep. because if we can stop his cannon creep forward, then we can easily just tech up to stimpack/combat shields and medivacs which will let us clean up any early cannons that the toss may have gotten down.
two marines have sufficient dps to more than offset the rate at which a cannon warps in. (if the cannon is more than 1/4th done, i think you need more marines to kill it before it completes). our goal is to use marines to make sure that toss can't get additional cannons go up. (whatever you do, don't try to kill completed cannons with non-stim, non-combat shield marines without medivacs - this is a guaranteed way to lose.)
the trick to using bunkers to zone cannons (despite lower range) is to try to put them just outside the range of any completed cannons (in between the completed cannons and your production / command center / mineral line).
more specifically, If you put your bunker 8 grid spaces away from a cannon, then not only will the cannon be unable to reach the bunker, but the toss player shouldn't be able to creep forward with cannons from that point.
so let's say that the diagram below represents a pylon adjacent to a cannon, with 8 grid spaces (represented by '#'s) to your bunker. (pylons, cannons and bunkers are all 2x2 grid spaces in size, hence the representation below.)
PPCC########BB
PPCC########BB
in this case, if toss tries to creep forward a cannon, like this...
PPCCCC######BB
PPCCCC######BB
...then the cannon would be able to be hit by the bunker.
if toss tries to put a cannon diagonally like this...
####CC
####CC
PPCC########BB
PPCC########BB
...then this cannon would hit our bunker and our bunker wouldn't be able to hit it back BUT marines can attack this cannon with impunity as it warps in if you position them directly opposite from the first cannon.
hopefully this helps you understand conceptually how bunkers and marines can be used when dealing with cannon rushes. the key thing to remember is that in the earliest stage of the game, the goal is to simply stop the toss's cannon creep forward, NOT to kill any cannons which may have been completed.
***
note: you probably already know that if toss tries to warp in an exposed cannon that isn't protected by other cannons, it takes anywhere from 3-6 scvs to kill it before it warps in (depending on how much is completed when you start attacking it.) any decent cannon rusher will set it up so that his first cannon is guaranteed to go down (by protecting it with gateways, other pylons, etc.) which is why i assume in my post above that one cannon has already been completed in your base. if the dude literally just puts his first pylon near your command center and then tries to warp in an exposed cannon, the solution is trivial: just pull scvs and kill the cannon.
***
so much for the theory of holding cannon rushes. what about practical considerations?
my reaction to scouting a cannon rush is to throw down two more rax (instead of expanding) for constant marine production and to start depots behind my mineral line (bc getting supply blocked as a result of losing your wall-off depots is a surefire way to lose to cannon rush). i then get usually two bunkers - one between my CC and his completed cannon(s) and another between my mineral line and his completed cannon(s).
once i'm confident that i've stopped his cannon creep, i start my second gas and, as i can afford it i get two tech labs (for stimpack and combat shield), marauders fromt he tech-labbed barracsk as well as a factory/reactor/starport for standard double medivac production and i go for a quick counter attack.
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On June 06 2016 05:57 Telon Petrides wrote:
HI everyone,
I usually play a Mech/Sky Terran strategy against TvZ, and found it pretty successful against Ultras, Broods, Vipers, etc. But I am now finding with the new SwarmHost, I'm really struggling. I'm trying different compositions, and I find that Sky Terran units are able to a certain degree fight against the SwarmHost, but in general, I find that I am always behind a Zerg that is good at attacking with the swarm hosts, then running away, rinse and repeat. The damage the Swarmhosts do to everything (buildings, SCVs, and army i.e. tanks) I just can't keep up with. Anyone have any suggestions?
GuMiho had a nice tactic vs swarm hosts in HotS. immediately start x2 medivac production and drop tanks and thors everywhere. 1 or 2 thors in his main, 2 tanks at his 5th/6th expansion, and anywhere else you can find an opening. this forces zerg to build roaches or lings to defend and disrupts his siege tactics. the medivacs might come in handy later when you try to push the swarm host lines with hellbats as cannon fodder. but in general, against a slow zerg army, mech drops are really strong. always amazes me how fast a 3/3 thor can destroy buildings 
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On June 06 2016 04:33 SHODAN wrote:
If you mess up your defense, lift command center and barracks to third and try again.
On that particular map you can't take your 3rd if you get cannon rushed. 1 cannon on the high ground (that used to be your main) and it's goodbye mining again.
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On June 06 2016 03:31 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2016 03:15 EatingBomber wrote:On June 06 2016 02:13 NexT_SC2 wrote:how do I defend cannon rush? I was told to make bunkers; marines in bunkers outrange cannons by 1. Idk if this is the best response though. Does anyone have general benchmarks/ mid game guidelines for macro terran play. I like to play defensive 3cc builds like ty does. For example: 3rd cc should come down after rax/ factory, when should stim start, 8 rax for 3 bases (is this the case in lotv?), when should liberators start? I've recently transitioned from hots to lotv so I don't know the timings very well. Marines in Bunkers have the same range as Cannons: 6. Marines in the open only have 5. cannons have 7 range
Oops.
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On June 06 2016 17:27 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2016 04:33 SHODAN wrote:
If you mess up your defense, lift command center and barracks to third and try again.
On that particular map you can't take your 3rd if you get cannon rushed. 1 cannon on the high ground (that used to be your main) and it's goodbye mining again.
well if he built the cannons on that side, you can take your natural instead. every time I played against it on Frozen Temple the protoss player walled in behind the geysers at my natural, then built more near my main ramp. anyway, all you have to do is survive until you have an orbital and 3 marines, then you can pull the boys and go kill him.
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On June 06 2016 05:57 Telon Petrides wrote:
HI everyone,
I usually play a Mech/Sky Terran strategy against TvZ, and found it pretty successful against Ultras, Broods, Vipers, etc. But I am now finding with the new SwarmHost, I'm really struggling. I'm trying different compositions, and I find that Sky Terran units are able to a certain degree fight against the SwarmHost, but in general, I find that I am always behind a Zerg that is good at attacking with the swarm hosts, then running away, rinse and repeat. The damage the Swarmhosts do to everything (buildings, SCVs, and army i.e. tanks) I just can't keep up with. Anyone have any suggestions?
Eumh, I dunno at what level you play, but locusts get absolutely demolished once you have few thors and/or liberators. They're light flying units, so if you have splash AA you obliterate them before they even land x)
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how do you counter hellion-viking-raven openings in tvt? Scan and Lillekanin both did it to me and I don't know what composition to make and when to attack. They just take bases with sensor and turrets, it is impossible to drop them. Sometimes they do a hellion runby or some raven turrets harass. The dps of a turret is so huge it can kill a cc easily with a few ravens.
When a Terran go straight to the classic mech (hellbat/tank/vikings) I counter them with a viking/libs switch after the 2-2 for my bio but when they rush for ravens they get the air superiority and hellion burn my marines while the turret absorb the shots of my tanks.
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In TvT, what's the best way to deal with Tankivacs? I'm in Diamond and I just keep on losing to them, partially due to my mechanics not being up to par for LOTV TvT yet, and partially because I don't know the new strats. Watching the tournaments and Terran streams, just the mechanics alone they make it look easier than it actually is.
Any suggestions on how to effectively pick up and drop Tankivacs quickly while controlling my marines?
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Work with 2 shortcuts, one for all your army, and one with just the medivacs. When you want to pick up, just select your second group, and right clic on all your sieged tanks while maintaining shift. Then, use your first control group to move around with all your army. When you wanna fight, don't try to drop on the go. Hit stim on your main control group, then select the second, boost and D + left clic where you want your tanks to be.
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Definitely keep the tankivacs on a seperate control group and whenever a fight could happen keep tapping that hotkey with priority over your marines. Already having the tanks selected and boosted at appropriate times is very key in lotv tvt imo.
It closely resembles shooting in an fps game imo, the player with the quickest triggerfinger has a huge advantage
if your opponent has the quicker drop, just disengage, it's better eat a tank shot than get impatient and engage and lose a costly fight, if disengaging isn't an option you most likely didn't see him coming
you should always have at least 1 spotter marine on the map, if you see the opponent's army on 3 base vs 3 base with equal armies, try to meet him halfway so you got some room to manoeuvre around so you don't get cornered
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On June 11 2016 02:41 JackONeill wrote:
Work with 2 shortcuts, one for all your army, and one with just the medivacs. When you want to pick up, just select your second group, and right clic on all your sieged tanks while maintaining shift. Then, use your first control group to move around with all your army. When you wanna fight, don't try to drop on the go. Hit stim on your main control group, then select the second, boost and D + left clic where you want your tanks to be.
With the Tankivacs, whoever gets the first shot off their tanks usually wins the engagement and the fight right? Because that's what is happening with my TvTs. My opponent landed his tanks before me and within two seconds, my army got destroyed going from 200 supply to 80 supply.
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On June 13 2016 07:30 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2016 02:41 JackONeill wrote:
Work with 2 shortcuts, one for all your army, and one with just the medivacs. When you want to pick up, just select your second group, and right clic on all your sieged tanks while maintaining shift. Then, use your first control group to move around with all your army. When you wanna fight, don't try to drop on the go. Hit stim on your main control group, then select the second, boost and D + left clic where you want your tanks to be. With the Tankivacs, whoever gets the first shot off their tanks usually wins the engagement and the fight right? Because that's what is happening with my TvTs. My opponent landed his tanks before me and within two seconds, my army got destroyed going from 200 supply to 80 supply.
Not necessarily, if you take a fight in a really bad position like for example your marines are all clumped up at a ramp you can still lose even if you drop your tanks first.
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Yes, it's true. If you engage badly the fight might go worse for you. Hopefully you can engage well and kill his units before he kills your units which increases the chances of you winning the fight.
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How do you guys counter that pylon rush that protoss uses to create and cancel it over and over again? I use to send 6 scv for each pylon, because this is the exact number necessary to deny the warp, but if protoss cancel these pylons, I lost too much mine timing. How do you guys counter it?
When on little air distance maps, they send the mothership core to hit the pylons and attack me, but even if I am able to deny the pylons, protoss just get ahead.
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On June 13 2016 13:26 Damien wrote:
How do you guys counter that pylon rush that protoss uses to create and cancel it over and over again? I use to send 6 scv for each pylon, because this is the exact number necessary to deny the warp, but if protoss cancel these pylons, I lost too much mine timing. How do you guys counter it?
When on little air distance maps, they send the mothership core to hit the pylons and attack me, but even if I am able to deny the pylons, protoss just get ahead.
We need more information, when does he build the pylons, where does he place them? What do you mean with "cancel and create over and over?
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On June 13 2016 13:26 Damien wrote:
How do you guys counter that pylon rush that protoss uses to create and cancel it over and over again? I use to send 6 scv for each pylon, because this is the exact number necessary to deny the warp, but if protoss cancel these pylons, I lost too much mine timing. How do you guys counter it?
When on little air distance maps, they send the mothership core to hit the pylons and attack me, but even if I am able to deny the pylons, protoss just get ahead.
scoot protoss base with scv and keep reaper home to kill the probe
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EPT
