EPT[G] ZvP: An Aggressive Playstyle Guide - Page 3
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
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Jakamakala
United States115 Posts
On December 26 2014 08:17 Lobotomist wrote: Sick guide! I really like the attack phases. Do you ever run into situations where the lateness of the upgrades is a problem (I'm thinking of that constant blink stalker pressure/expand build specifically). Not really I thought about it awhile and upgrades only serve to delay some of the attacks. 10:30 ling hydra is so powerful already and Protoss always opens +1 atk if they upgrade at all but they really need to scramble for either colossus or sentries so I'm doubting they'll be working off two forges. I've cleaned up the build since I posted this and have consistently hit my Viper timing around 15:00-15:30 with 1/1 so the upgrades are present there and Protoss often has +2 or +3 attack but no armor. Its also nice to note that roaches often overkill heavily making critical upgrades less noticeable. When you do a full on tech switch to mutas this is where I heavily encourage you to upgrade air attack, and even here you shouldn't be planning to engage his army head on in an even game though this is the only portion where itd be nice to have ups but damn are spire upgrades hard to come by. I have had games where I closed it by supplementing my 20-30 mutas with 20 roaches on the ground kiting into stalkers and abducting archons with leftover vipers to wipe their entire AA before returning to mutilate their base. I wish there was an easier way to get mutas upgrades ahead of time but timing attacks make gas so tight. Against blink pressure specifically if i scout it I'm more likely to go Roach ling instead of hydra ling with the same game concept in mind. Roach ling is much better for fighting heavy blink aggression than ling hydra because of burst damage and higher s speed and much higher numbers due to cost. Roach ling gets right on top of blink stalkers on creep making blink impractical and roaches fire in big volleys making stalkers die before they can blink. Roaches high individual attack value make upgradeslless necessary, especially because of the overkill but getting +1 is useful. | ||
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Alch3mist
Belgium29 Posts
I was wondering about two things though. During the first tier, i attack with lings and hydras, but hydras don't have speed yet (it has just been started). So what often happens is if i can't kill the protoss right away, i end up losing most of my hydras when trying to retreat, because they are way too slow off creep. How do you generally deal with that? I was also wondering if it would not be more effective to use corruptors instead of vipers if the opponent goes for lots of colossi (which he often does because of hydras). I've lost some big endgame engagements probably because i didn't use any corruptors and tried to do it all with vipers, and my opponent also said that i would have won if i had used corruptors. But maybe i'm just bad with vipers and need more practice with them (i pretty much never used them before trying out your guide). I probably also lost those these games because of lots of other reasons, but i'm thinking more in general, maybe also a mix of both would be nice? | ||
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Jakamakala
United States115 Posts
On December 26 2014 19:11 Alch3mist wrote: Hi Jaka, thanks for this amazing guide! I've been trying it out on the ladder and it's very fun to play and effective. I was wondering about two things though. During the first tier, i attack with lings and hydras, but hydras don't have speed yet (it has just been started). So what often happens is if i can't kill the protoss right away, i end up losing most of my hydras when trying to retreat, because they are way too slow off creep. How do you generally deal with that? I was also wondering if it would not be more effective to use corruptors instead of vipers if the opponent goes for lots of colossi (which he often does because of hydras). I've lost some big endgame engagements probably because i didn't use any corruptors and tried to do it all with vipers, and my opponent also said that i would have won if i had used corruptors. But maybe i'm just bad with vipers and need more practice with them (i pretty much never used them before trying out your guide). I probably also lost those these games because of lots of other reasons, but i'm thinking more in general, maybe also a mix of both would be nice? The only things that can catch your hydras off creep are stalkers or phoenix. If you've destroyed their third you've already done substantial damage and can pull them back. Have your lings ready to zone anything that tries to chase the hydras. Never overcommit and if pulling back earlier will save the hydras, do so. For the second attack I think it may be a practice issue. Vipers will always be superior to Corruptors in dispatching colossi because the colossi are removed from the fight immediately rather than slowly throughout (Corruptors have poor DPS) and vipers also have Blinding Cloud utility. When you do your second attack, are you using separate hotkeys for your vipers and Roach/Hydra? That would really help viper control. Rebinding speedlings for harass is great too as a side note. I would rather have an extra viper and 16 hydras over 10 corruptors. Also remember abduct is much more effective the more hydras you have. There is such a thing as too much roach. I'll try to see if I can find a replay when I am back in my apartment. | ||
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Alch3mist
Belgium29 Posts
I do have them on a separate hotkey yes. I generally do multiple abducts and shift-click them behind my army to avoid them running in the opponent's force. I'm glad that you say vipers are more effective than corruptors, because i actually like that unit a lot and it's very fun to use. It's just harder to use than focusing colossi one by one with corruptors  | ||
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Jakamakala
United States115 Posts
Lol I want to name my style: ZvP: The Aggressive Bait n' Switch by Jakamakala I think the name is more clever and suits the premise of the style: forcing favorable tech switches. | ||
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YurnerotheJuggernaut
Faroe Islands65 Posts
On December 28 2014 16:40 Jakamakala wrote: Is there a way to edit the thread title? Lol I want to name my style: ZvP: The Aggressive Bait n' Switch by Jakamakala I think the name is more clever and suits the premise of the style: taking advantage of corner cutting Protosses or horrible players making mistakes. Fixed it for you. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
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Jakamakala
United States115 Posts
On December 29 2014 07:45 Lobotomist wrote: Any chance you wanna upload some more reps? Specifically I'd like to see one where toss opens standard-ish stargate. http://sc2replaystats.com/replay/999720 My clan mate played this one it's perfectly executed vs SG opener. He would have gone into SH for late game though that's his style. | ||
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straycat
230 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
lol, so koreans never cut corners or win games with heavy low tech aggression? none of soo's wins ever came off the back of roach ling comps, eh? only middling ladder players have this absurd no rush 20 min macro elitism mindset and i will never understand it | ||
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Jakamakala
United States115 Posts
On December 29 2014 22:27 straycat wrote: I've been longing to try this out and have had like two or three nice games where I was able to execute it fully. Sadly tho over like 15 hours of laddering about 5 protosses ever took a third, so haven't exactly got full coverage... I know how you feel. Unfortunately as a Zerg player its important for you to be skilled at stopping all ins (and taking a huge lead) in addition to knowing how to try to leverage a lead through your own aggression. The builds opener is pretty standard though and you can easily adapt to stop an all in if you scout. You shouldn't be caught off guard most of the time even if you open the game intending to hit their third and they go for two base shenanigans. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
On December 29 2014 12:48 Jakamakala wrote: http://sc2replaystats.com/replay/999720 My clan mate played this one it's perfectly executed vs SG opener. He would have gone into SH for late game though that's his style. Thanks for the rep, will watch it tonight. | ||
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YurnerotheJuggernaut
Faroe Islands65 Posts
On December 29 2014 23:51 brickrd wrote: lol, so koreans never cut corners or win games with heavy low tech aggression? none of soo's wins ever came off the back of roach ling comps, eh? only middling ladder players have this absurd no rush 20 min macro elitism mindset and i will never understand it You're very good at reading, my dear friend. | ||
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Jakamakala
United States115 Posts
On December 31 2014 20:24 YurnerotheJuggernaut wrote: You're very good at reading, my dear friend. Do you think my style is bad?  | ||
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TelecoM
United States10700 Posts
This is not "Your" Style, this is common sense Zerg style. What can you attack with early? Lings. What next? Roaches What about after that to throw the Protoss off guard and force a unit composition that will benefit me with my next transition? Mutas What if the Protoss is going to all in and you need something other than Roaches? Hydras. You did not invent this style it is called common sense, this is the easiest, simplest and most logical way to play ZvP in an aggressive manner. It is nice that you are trying to explain and help lower ranking players, but please do not brand this as your own style, I and many other Zergs have been doing this sort of unit transitioning since WOL Beta. It is only common sense after all. | ||
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Jakamakala
United States115 Posts
On January 01 2015 15:52 GGzerG wrote: This is not "Your" Style, this is common sense Zerg style. What can you attack with early? Lings. What next? Roaches What about after that to throw the Protoss off guard and force a unit composition that will benefit me with my next transition? Mutas What if the Protoss is going to all in and you need something other than Roaches? Hydras. You did not invent this style it is called common sense, this is the easiest, simplest and most logical way to play ZvP in an aggressive manner. It is nice that you are trying to explain and help lower ranking players, but please do not brand this as your own style, I and many other Zergs have been doing this sort of unit transitioning since WOL Beta. It is only common sense after all. I didn't call it "my style" as in I invented it, but rather as the style of choice I choose to play with a very specific mapped out way to do it. Do you often go on the internet literally fishing for ways to try to sound smart by stretching the meaning of other's choice of words instead of being productive or helpful? I'm curious what your real life social skills are and I can't wait to see what insults you reply to me with  | ||
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YurnerotheJuggernaut
Faroe Islands65 Posts
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Jakamakala
United States115 Posts
On January 01 2015 21:25 YurnerotheJuggernaut wrote: There's a [L] missing in the title and would be a lot less cancerous if you hadn't shamelessly advertised your stream. I am sorry I didn't realize I made an error excluding an [L] tag when I was writing this. I looked at many other guides and thought I would be fine. I've also consistently taken down GMs using this specific build so I thought I was okay I guess I was wrong and again, I apologize. I did not mean to create any "cancerous material" with this guide. As for the stream I apologize for that as well I placed the link there at the suggestion of some friends in the game client. I will try to make the appropriate changes. Have a happy New Year. | ||
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YurnerotheJuggernaut
Faroe Islands65 Posts
On January 02 2015 05:15 Jakamakala wrote: I am sorry I didn't realize I made an error excluding an [L] tag when I was writing this. I looked at many other guides and thought I would be fine. I've also consistently taken down GMs using this specific build so I thought I was okay I guess I was wrong and again, I apologize. I did not mean to create any "cancerous material" with this guide. As for the stream I apologize for that as well I placed the link there at the suggestion of some friends in the game client. I will try to make the appropriate changes. Have a happy New Year. Happy New Year! | ||
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