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On October 25 2014 00:40 Jeka wrote:
great for punishing fast thirds, great for losing games to great Protoss players who see the hydra ling attack incoming and react with a strong 2 base army like blink stalker sentry zealot and a cancelled third base.
So they're doing a 2 base all in? Why are you even attacking then. You still have 54 drones and you can use the offensive power of your attack to be your defense instead. If they don't have a third you're already in a fantastic position by default. You can easily use the offensive power of your attack to be defensive instead and have an income lead.
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On October 25 2014 04:45 Jakamakala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2014 00:40 Jeka wrote:
great for punishing fast thirds, great for losing games to great Protoss players who see the hydra ling attack incoming and react with a strong 2 base army like blink stalker sentry zealot and a cancelled third base. So they're doing a 2 base all in? Why are you even attacking then. You still have 54 drones and you can use the offensive power of your attack to be your defense instead. If they don't have a third you're already in a fantastic position by default. You can easily use the offensive power of your attack to be defensive instead and have an income lead.
Brute force two base all-ins are not good I think.
If you would take for instance a Protoss player who gateway expands and then makes his mission to deny your map control instead of a pressure, you then can still drone up to 50+ drones before producing the first lings since the Protoss will look like he is running around the map accomplishing little but really he is widening his options for defending the timing attack. By denying the map control your chances of seeing the tech. he goes for in his main are lowered, if he even chooses to lay his tech there. You still need to see the 3rd base before comitting to the attack and the Protoss knows this so he doesn't snipe any overlords around the 3rd location, but lays a nexus quite early, followed by a forge so that he can make cannons, followed by a very late twilight for blink. If you go for an attack in this situation you could just get fucked, if you play defensive the the Protoss will have good macro still. I'm sure you have better knowledge of the timings in the matchup than I do so basically, anything could happen
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On October 25 2014 07:12 Jeka wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2014 04:45 Jakamakala wrote:On October 25 2014 00:40 Jeka wrote:
great for punishing fast thirds, great for losing games to great Protoss players who see the hydra ling attack incoming and react with a strong 2 base army like blink stalker sentry zealot and a cancelled third base. So they're doing a 2 base all in? Why are you even attacking then. You still have 54 drones and you can use the offensive power of your attack to be your defense instead. If they don't have a third you're already in a fantastic position by default. You can easily use the offensive power of your attack to be defensive instead and have an income lead. Brute force two base all-ins are not good I think. If you would take for instance a Protoss player who gateway expands and then makes his mission to deny your map control instead of a pressure, you then can still drone up to 50+ drones before producing the first lings since the Protoss will look like he is running around the map accomplishing little but really he is widening his options for defending the timing attack. By denying the map control your chances of seeing the tech. he goes for in his main are lowered, if he even chooses to lay his tech there. You still need to see the 3rd base before comitting to the attack and the Protoss knows this so he doesn't snipe any overlords around the 3rd location, but lays a nexus quite early, followed by a forge so that he can make cannons, followed by a very late twilight for blink. If you go for an attack in this situation you could just get fucked, if you play defensive the the Protoss will have good macro still. I'm sure you have better knowledge of the timings in the matchup than I do so basically, anything could happen
I'm very active with my first few lings on the map and sure you're never guaranteed to get a surefire spot of their tech with your overlords but you can still get a moderate read on what they're up to more often than not. If you're super active with your lings you can see when they get a pre 8-9 minute third or not if they stay on two base you can just take your econ lead but they're probably all inning if you don't see a third by 9-10 minutes so the units you made have utility anyway. Like I said, you don't have to attack. If you are committing to an attack up the natural ramp when there's no third then it's your own fault if you throw away units.
Use your early lings map control is yours for the first portions of the game.
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great for punishing fast thirds, great for losing games to great Protoss players who see the hydra ling attack incoming and react with a strong 2 base army like blink stalker sentry zealot and a cancelled third base.
Imo, not to mention from watching pro's, Zergs will absolutely Roll over Protoss in this situation. Exceptions would be 2+ Colossus or some early pressure forcing the zerg to make too many units which will definitely slow down the timing/power of our mid game push pre Colossus.
A lightly harassed zerg can easily be at your 3rd with 10+ Hydra (with range) and 30+ lings before 11:00. W/out 2 Colossus or perfect FFs with around 4VRs this has the potential to be game ending. Toss can definitely make it work but the timings have to be pretty perfect. And if you're stuck on 2 base too long a quick Muta switch will keep you pinned down giving the zergy too much time.
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Thank you for your guide! I personally don't like this kind of strategies because "if you don't do damage you lose", but this is very strong, i will try it 
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On November 03 2014 05:50 Purce wrote:Thank you for your guide! I personally don't like this kind of strategies because "if you don't do damage you lose", but this is very strong, i will try it
Generally the onus is already on you to damage Protoss anyway since they have a ridiculous late game.
This applies more so to me because I can't stand SH.
Its REALLY really hard to not get damage done if you're doing a properly executed ling hydra attack.
Obviously if your opponent opened gateway expand and is aggressive early you're playing a different game that probably involves roaches. Gateway FE builds are so much stronger and trickier to play against.
Life vs Zest showed that being aggressive against Protoss with proper execution is extremely effective as long as you can spot holes, capitalize on mistakes, and know when its time to retreat and regroup or drone up.
Life's final game had him do a delayed Ling Hydra attack that killed Zest (on account of the cannon rush)
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Life's final game had him do a delayed Ling Hydra attack that killed Zest (on account of the cannon rush)
And I'm pretty sure his 1st game in the WCS day 1 bracket had him going roach/ing (which Zest initially denied) into a successful roach/ling Corrupter timing. I bring this up because I really dislike SH too, at least when heavily massed and used in conjunction with excessive static D, Viper pulls, and eventually fungals.
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What would you do if you execute this and the protoss doesn't take a third? I find it difficult to do damage since he's camped in his natural and can just forcefield the initial hydra-ling comp. Should I just stayback and macro up or should I force the issue and do damage? What do I target if that's the case? Lost my last game because I couldn't do damage aside from killing a few of his troops and the protoss reacted with a 14:00 push with collosi. No vipers out by that time yet so I found it impossible to defend.
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On December 01 2014 21:48 McGoku wrote:
What would you do if you execute this and the protoss doesn't take a third? I find it difficult to do damage since he's camped in his natural and can just forcefield the initial hydra-ling comp. Should I just stayback and macro up or should I force the issue and do damage? What do I target if that's the case? Lost my last game because I couldn't do damage aside from killing a few of his troops and the protoss reacted with a 14:00 push with collosi. No vipers out by that time yet so I found it impossible to defend.
If Protoss is camped in their natural and has no third there's no need for you to commit to the attack. Keep your units and try to determine their intent but for the most part a 2 base Protoss is one of two things:
1) An All in Protoss
2) Just bad, as in there's no reason you should be losing because they've waited to the point where you've gained a distinct advantage with your extra base and you can continually pressure them if they try to take a third. If Protoss stayed on 2 base (and I have a burrowed ling/overlord pooping creep at their third) I would probably move up to 66 drones (saturate the third) and throw down a spire and go to hive. I would be moving up to fast roach hydra viper to both defend or end the game but the spire will allow you to get corruptors if they're moving out before Hive Tech is ready. You should have quite the eco advantage so try to engage them with a flank mid field and remax if needed.
Basically don't commit up a natural ramp, drone up, determine their intent and prep the appropriate units. Don't waste time and resources trying to break a 2 base turtle it's not worth it.
Remember that having three base against two is a MUCH better position than say, having 5 bases vs 4. The math is obvious.
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Wonderful guide. I struggle ZvP and I think this will help me. Thanks Jaka
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On December 10 2014 05:20 Fyrex wrote:
Wonderful guide. I struggle ZvP and I think this will help me. Thanks Jaka
Thanks man. Appreciate the comment makes me feel good knowing my work is helping somebody.
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Man, why didn't I see this before? Let's hope this fixes my abysmal ZvP
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On December 12 2014 05:35 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Man, why didn't I see this before? Let's hope this fixes my abysmal ZvP
Awesome dude. Let me know how it goes and bring any questions or criticisms you have to me and I'll do my best to answer or address them.
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I had to create an account to say that this guide is the reason why my ZvP went from probably my worst matchup to my best. I find it very adaptable. If the Protoss goes for early pressure I can defend with speed lings and roaches, and then usually end the game if I defend that and counter pressure. Or if they sit back then I can carry forward with the build, which I'm finding has a very high success rate.
Thanks Jaka!
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I've been doing pretty well with the opening part of this build, but then I just go into 4-5 base muta straightaway. It may not be as strong, but seems to work reasonably well in diamond.
Basically after I build the hydras, I throw down the spire, 3rd and 4th gasses, 4th base while moving out and move to pure muta production with my gas.
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On October 25 2014 00:40 Jeka wrote:
great for punishing fast thirds, great for losing games to great Protoss players who see the hydra ling attack incoming and react with a strong 2 base army like blink stalker sentry zealot and a cancelled third base.
hdyra/ling prettymuch wrecks anythign withough splash, heck hydras are prettymuch the best way to deal with blink stalkers 
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On December 25 2014 06:18 Damusson wrote:
I had to create an account to say that this guide is the reason why my ZvP went from probably my worst matchup to my best. I find it very adaptable. If the Protoss goes for early pressure I can defend with speed lings and roaches, and then usually end the game if I defend that and counter pressure. Or if they sit back then I can carry forward with the build, which I'm finding has a very high success rate.
Thanks Jaka!
No problem. Its always important to appreciate the concept of mind games macro and tech switches more than the actual build itself which is more of a strong template. Power to you man.
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On December 25 2014 09:22 Defenestrator wrote:
I've been doing pretty well with the opening part of this build, but then I just go into 4-5 base muta straightaway. It may not be as strong, but seems to work reasonably well in diamond.
Basically after I build the hydras, I throw down the spire, 3rd and 4th gasses, 4th base while moving out and move to pure muta production with my gas.
Its possible to go straight to mutas but you really have to force the Protoss to the back foot with your initial aggression as tech switches require both gas and for them to be on their side of the field. Mutas will always work even in GM as long as yoy remember that it is more important to force a base trade as Zerg is favored in a base trade over Protoss and Protoss has no way of both reliably catching ur SkyZerg and killing your base at the same time without Phoenix.
Keep it up man.
On December 25 2014 10:43 Enigmasc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2014 00:40 Jeka wrote:
great for punishing fast thirds, great for losing games to great Protoss players who see the hydra ling attack incoming and react with a strong 2 base army like blink stalker sentry zealot and a cancelled third base. hdyra/ling prettymuch wrecks anythign withough splash, heck hydras are prettymuch the best way to deal with blink stalkers
On paper and in leagues hydra ling works well but against a blink all in with good micro you want Roach ling for a few reasons. You can make more bulk mass earlier due to earlier tech and its much harder to blink micro vs Roach ling due to super close proximity (esp with stutter stepping on creep) and the high burst damage that often eliminates stalkers before they can even blink while hydras provide steady high DPS from a distance that allows Protoss to blink before stalkers go down.
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It seems as if you are defending a Gate FE 4 gate with slow ling and queens. Maybe you could elaborate a bit on how you do that?
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On December 26 2014 02:36 straycat wrote:
It seems as if you are defending a Gate FE 4 gate with slow ling and queens. Maybe you could elaborate a bit on how you do that?
In my opinion there are two ways to fight "San Gate," which is so incredibly powerful.
The number one thing at first is to identify it with your first lings. With hatch first your first lings can arrive at their base at 5:00-5:20 ish to identify an aggressive four gate ( you can often get a ling into the main but their wall at their natural often gives it away).
After that you should cut drones around 26 and pump ling Queen and scout good locations for a proxy pylon, often near your third, such as high ground on Merry Go Round. I usually pull at least three queens and try to have them tank zealot damage if i can not stop a pylon from going up so lings can wrap around and do damage. However I find it very easy to overshoot ling production this way.
Lately I've been using gas. When I spot the San Gate I still scout around and cut drones at a similar time but I'll take one emergency gas at 5:00 when I identify the build and make a roach warren. When the Warren finishes I can make about three roaches and I'll keep pumping them with lings as the money comes in. This way is more micro intensive and requires you to put roaches on zealots and lings on stalkers but it has a higher skill ceiling and more dependable with good micro because you decide where to fight now that you have roaches.
With this method I'll start speed when things are calming down and I usually throw my next three gases down by ear as the game progresses. You have an easier time counter punishing Protoss with Roach ling rather than just roach. Either way San gate is very strong so you just remember that you're forced to cut drones early and then you burst a ton out all at once when its over. Be sure to always sweep for pylons both before and after the attack.
It's important to know how to play by ear here because after the chaos of a gateway FE 4 gate there's no real set BO for every situational aftermath.
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EPT
