[banner by Existor] *Update: I will try to get replays out and a build order out as soon as I can! *Update 2: I have some timings for you and they are shown in the video at the end ! Hey ya'll, you might not know who I am, but I just thought of a fun idea!
What if in the midgame (with about 2-3 queens for creep) we had the Overlord speed and dropship upgrade and loaded up the queens to spread creep from different angles.
Here's a picture so you can understand a little bit better:
As you can see, I put the creep you should have midgame in purple. Now for the queens:
This creep harass covers ground a lot faster and more efficiently. You only require up to 3 tumors per base to spread it as you want it to. So if you are saving for transfuse in the late game, there's still time for that. You're only using a small amount of energy for big harass + expanding your vision and territory.
ofc, if you need immediate energy for defending all-ins, that's another story.
Also, after setting down tumors, you can pick up queens and send them home. No need to let them stay out there. badlydrawnqueen.jpg Edit - From testing this, it doesn't seem to setback much (maybe the spire for 10-20 seconds) but depending on how you open and if you are over-making army is important too. You can play it greedy and get early 3 base which might set back the timing slightly (due to a lack of minerals) but overall, you should be getting in good damage with this + map control. (from denying bases/forcing scans and forcing observers)
I don't know if anybody has done this, or if it's bad for a particular reason, but this is just an idea for zerg to have a reason to research the dropship upgrade.
What are your thoughts? If you want to find me in-game, I am ArcD.277 on the AM server. Or send me a message on my page www.facebook.com/ArcofDawnEntertainment UPDATE: VIDEO DEMONSTRATION IS LIVE
I've thought of this as well, but more so as a late game tactic. I feel like in the early game the investment needed for overlord speed and drop is way too much. It's a 300/300 investment. That's like lair and a spire, or 1/1, and that's only if you don't lose the queens. I do feel like this could be a good move on a large map, such as Frost or Alterzim Stronghold in the late game, but in my opinion marginal cost of this play is higher than the benefit in the early mid game (before your opponent plants a third).
It could possibly work if you planned a build around walking a queen and overlord all the way over (no speed or transport upgrades), but you would need to figure out your timing really well for that. This information is coming from a diamond random player.
Send a queen into long-walking route to enemy expansions, and at half-way send your drone. Do a hatchery and place tumors. You only investing 75 minerals and a queen into each "proxreep"
If protoss can spend a probe and pylon to place pylon-block at your third, why you can't do that? Just send a slow Queen, send a drone a bit later, and then do a creep-tumors and start spread creep in 2-4 directions from that placement.
Another simple idea without expensive Overlord-drop investment, is just research Overlord speed only. Then, at Lair you do a creep-road to that enemy 3rd base and place tumors easily!
Or mix up two methods above. Relocate overlords and use them as creep-bridges for Queen. First you do a creep-road to enemy 3rd, then you relocate all your Overlords to other place and do a new creep-road!
TLO just walks queens/ovies way out in the early game- mid game, and as soon as he hits lair he poops tumors., a bit easier since you don't invest into ups, and it's faster without ups
On January 29 2014 08:37 tili wrote: TLO just walks queens/ovies way out in the early game- mid game, and as soon as he hits lair he poops tumors., a bit easier since you don't invest into ups, and it's faster without ups
I can see the early walking, but sometimes you want them home to defend (ie hellion runbys and whatnot. so say you walked them out early, you want to return back quickly (and not lose overlords to anti air in the middle of the map) you can load queens up and take them home. The cost is definitely an issue though but think of this as investment for damage that may help more in the long run. ( stopping bases and having super mobility. We can do roach drops, infestor drops and maybe even swarmhost drops early on. This all forces the opponent to get detection or scans which can be costly )
The idea behind this is the same as early medivac/thor defense. maybe your thors are at your third, but you want them to be in your main to defend. We can pickup/boost back into the main and unload thors for defense.
I'm not sure about TLO's timing, maybe he found that he was able to get home to defend at a good time and such
On January 29 2014 08:53 ArcDawn wrote: I can see the early walking, but sometimes you want them home to defend (ie hellion runbys and whatnot. so say you walked them out early, you want to return back quickly (and not lose overlords to anti air in the middle of the map) you can load queens up and take them home. The cost is definitely an issue though but think of this as investment for damage that may help more in the long run. ( stopping bases and having super mobility. We can do roach drops, infestor drops and maybe even swarmhost drops early on. This all forces the opponent to get detection or scans which can be costly )
The idea behind this is the same as early medivac/thor defense. maybe your thors are at your third, but you want them to be in your main to defend. We can pickup/boost back into the main and unload thors for defense.
I'm not sure about TLO's timing, maybe he found that he was able to get home to defend at a good time and such
Hm, good point. Have you done this often in games? What time do you usually finish the ups and start spreading creep?
On January 29 2014 08:53 ArcDawn wrote: I can see the early walking, but sometimes you want them home to defend (ie hellion runbys and whatnot. so say you walked them out early, you want to return back quickly (and not lose overlords to anti air in the middle of the map) you can load queens up and take them home. The cost is definitely an issue though but think of this as investment for damage that may help more in the long run. ( stopping bases and having super mobility. We can do roach drops, infestor drops and maybe even swarmhost drops early on. This all forces the opponent to get detection or scans which can be costly )
The idea behind this is the same as early medivac/thor defense. maybe your thors are at your third, but you want them to be in your main to defend. We can pickup/boost back into the main and unload thors for defense.
I'm not sure about TLO's timing, maybe he found that he was able to get home to defend at a good time and such
Why not just spend 150 minerals on a special "Rambo" Queen, which will only do a creep in the far locations from the base?
On January 29 2014 08:53 ArcDawn wrote: I can see the early walking, but sometimes you want them home to defend (ie hellion runbys and whatnot. so say you walked them out early, you want to return back quickly (and not lose overlords to anti air in the middle of the map) you can load queens up and take them home. The cost is definitely an issue though but think of this as investment for damage that may help more in the long run. ( stopping bases and having super mobility. We can do roach drops, infestor drops and maybe even swarmhost drops early on. This all forces the opponent to get detection or scans which can be costly )
The idea behind this is the same as early medivac/thor defense. maybe your thors are at your third, but you want them to be in your main to defend. We can pickup/boost back into the main and unload thors for defense.
I'm not sure about TLO's timing, maybe he found that he was able to get home to defend at a good time and such
Hm, good point. Have you done this often in games? What time do you usually finish the ups and start spreading creep?
from basic testing, I found that I can have a copious amount of gas while still getting the upgrade at about 10 minutes or so. You will have room to get lings early or a few banes but you might delay the spire for a few seconds. ( due to minerals) it's not very delaying if you defend well early and not overmake lings. (By that I mean still around 10 minute spire and if you are making a lot of lings, your spire will be delayed anyways). At least, this is in my experience.
On January 29 2014 08:53 ArcDawn wrote: I can see the early walking, but sometimes you want them home to defend (ie hellion runbys and whatnot. so say you walked them out early, you want to return back quickly (and not lose overlords to anti air in the middle of the map) you can load queens up and take them home. The cost is definitely an issue though but think of this as investment for damage that may help more in the long run. ( stopping bases and having super mobility. We can do roach drops, infestor drops and maybe even swarmhost drops early on. This all forces the opponent to get detection or scans which can be costly )
The idea behind this is the same as early medivac/thor defense. maybe your thors are at your third, but you want them to be in your main to defend. We can pickup/boost back into the main and unload thors for defense.
I'm not sure about TLO's timing, maybe he found that he was able to get home to defend at a good time and such
Why not just spend 150 minerals on a special "Rambo" Queen, which will only do a creep in the far locations from the base?
That's possible but from testing, that's not a very good use of minerals + risk factor (if it gets destroyed before it creeps, then it's useless). It will be trapped outside creep and not be able to creep a lot at a time. (the overlord speed+transport allows fast queen movement to creep multiple places at once and come back to defend) I would much rather creep and then send it back fast than rely on the off chance my queen doesn't get caught in the middle of the map but that's a stylistic choice.
I guess it comes down to what do you want to use your gas on? To be honest most games gas is the limiting factor until maxed armies. If you are macroing well you should be limited by gas. To take some of that important gas from upgrades/units is not ideal.
However, in saying that, I have often thought about implementing this on larger maps in the late game to block expansions. Just one queen and an overlord drop will allow you to block every expansion in the game in a way that is very annoying to deal with.
The other thing with this kind of idea is ensuring that you make good use of the drop ability. Do some baneling bombs on mineral lines. Do zergling drops for backstabs in the base. Roach army drops on mech etc. I think if you sink this up with another build that utilizes drop it is fine. If it just a stand alone ability it is probably a waste.
On January 29 2014 10:57 zasg wrote: I guess it comes down to what do you want to use your gas on? To be honest most games gas is the limiting factor until maxed armies. If you are macroing well you should be limited by gas. To take some of that important gas from upgrades/units is not ideal.
However, in saying that, I have often thought about implementing this on larger maps in the late game to block expansions. Just one queen and an overlord drop will allow you to block every expansion in the game in a way that is very annoying to deal with.
The other thing with this kind of idea is ensuring that you make good use of the drop ability. Do some baneling bombs on mineral lines. Do zergling drops for backstabs in the base. Roach army drops on mech etc. I think if you sink this up with another build that utilizes drop it is fine. If it just a stand alone ability it is probably a waste.
early game zerg is usually mineral heavy. That said, it is useful to have the drop ability simply for stuff like you said (baneling drops/roach drops/ultra drops) unless there's a huge attack early on, there's not a big reason to be using gas. The two big gas users are probably if you are aiming for a roach timing or if you are massing roaches. In that case, you shouldn't need to worry about this harass being so early because roaches + speed are pretty mobile. If you are making only a few roaches for defense purposes, I can tell you it won't delay your early build for very long. Before you get mutas, from testing, it's possible to have everything line up with spire slightly delayed from minerals if you overmake lings.
On January 29 2014 11:24 tili wrote: Also- on another note, I really think this should not be termed creep harass.... It's not a harass at all.
well my thought is that you use it to indirectly harass the would-be bases of the opponent. (thus harassing not only their control of the map but harassing their potential economy) If you think of a better term, please let me know! (I just think it's cool to say CREEP HARASS! )
On January 29 2014 11:24 tili wrote: Also- on another note, I really think this should not be termed creep harass.... It's not a harass at all.
Well, it's more like "harass on a meta-level", so this is not just basic harass, like runby with something and kill 5-10 workers or building addon or forge, it's more like "strategical harass", where it blocks enemy expansions and constantly reveals territories for yourself. .
I have tried it but not having a queen for defensive is tough, especially against a reaper opening. the best method is to spread creep near a bit further away from your third (TLO cancel hatch style) because the extra creep helps immensively against hellion reaper (with or without banshee) pressure when you grab your third.
On January 29 2014 14:04 ETisME wrote: I have tried it but not having a queen for defensive is tough, especially against a reaper opening. the best method is to spread creep near a bit further away from your third (TLO cancel hatch style) because the extra creep helps immensively against hellion reaper (with or without banshee) pressure when you grab your third.
The overlords help to transport queens faster for defense as well. Hypothetically, say your queens are really far out for this creep hararss and there's pressure at your third. you can bring the queens back via overlord transport + other queens from bases slightly faster because you can transfer easily via dropship. So, it's not about queens being out of position rather than just not having enough units to defend. Ofc, this style of play requires some APMs. Not saying it's easy, but this strategy allows for you to be offensive and defensive with your queens. Reaper openings shouldn't be a problem because you should have queens at your bases anyways. The dropship queens are extra creep spreading queens (ie. if you do a 4 queen build you will have 1 queen at each base and either 1-2 extra creep queens) Those extra queens can be flown out at about the 10-11 minute mark for creep harass or if you need them at home you can fly them over to defend
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0ooQgur.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ikgyOo0.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/99GKqF6.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sSDyenJ.jpg)
)
