[banner by Existor] *Update: I will try to get replays out and a build order out as soon as I can! *Update 2: I have some timings for you and they are shown in the video at the end ! Hey ya'll, you might not know who I am, but I just thought of a fun idea!
What if in the midgame (with about 2-3 queens for creep) we had the Overlord speed and dropship upgrade and loaded up the queens to spread creep from different angles.
Here's a picture so you can understand a little bit better:
As you can see, I put the creep you should have midgame in purple. Now for the queens:
This creep harass covers ground a lot faster and more efficiently. You only require up to 3 tumors per base to spread it as you want it to. So if you are saving for transfuse in the late game, there's still time for that. You're only using a small amount of energy for big harass + expanding your vision and territory.
ofc, if you need immediate energy for defending all-ins, that's another story.
Also, after setting down tumors, you can pick up queens and send them home. No need to let them stay out there. badlydrawnqueen.jpg Edit - From testing this, it doesn't seem to setback much (maybe the spire for 10-20 seconds) but depending on how you open and if you are over-making army is important too. You can play it greedy and get early 3 base which might set back the timing slightly (due to a lack of minerals) but overall, you should be getting in good damage with this + map control. (from denying bases/forcing scans and forcing observers)
I don't know if anybody has done this, or if it's bad for a particular reason, but this is just an idea for zerg to have a reason to research the dropship upgrade.
What are your thoughts? If you want to find me in-game, I am ArcD.277 on the AM server. Or send me a message on my page www.facebook.com/ArcofDawnEntertainment UPDATE: VIDEO DEMONSTRATION IS LIVE
I've thought of this as well, but more so as a late game tactic. I feel like in the early game the investment needed for overlord speed and drop is way too much. It's a 300/300 investment. That's like lair and a spire, or 1/1, and that's only if you don't lose the queens. I do feel like this could be a good move on a large map, such as Frost or Alterzim Stronghold in the late game, but in my opinion marginal cost of this play is higher than the benefit in the early mid game (before your opponent plants a third).
It could possibly work if you planned a build around walking a queen and overlord all the way over (no speed or transport upgrades), but you would need to figure out your timing really well for that. This information is coming from a diamond random player.
Send a queen into long-walking route to enemy expansions, and at half-way send your drone. Do a hatchery and place tumors. You only investing 75 minerals and a queen into each "proxreep"
If protoss can spend a probe and pylon to place pylon-block at your third, why you can't do that? Just send a slow Queen, send a drone a bit later, and then do a creep-tumors and start spread creep in 2-4 directions from that placement.
Another simple idea without expensive Overlord-drop investment, is just research Overlord speed only. Then, at Lair you do a creep-road to that enemy 3rd base and place tumors easily!
Or mix up two methods above. Relocate overlords and use them as creep-bridges for Queen. First you do a creep-road to enemy 3rd, then you relocate all your Overlords to other place and do a new creep-road!
TLO just walks queens/ovies way out in the early game- mid game, and as soon as he hits lair he poops tumors., a bit easier since you don't invest into ups, and it's faster without ups
On January 29 2014 08:37 tili wrote: TLO just walks queens/ovies way out in the early game- mid game, and as soon as he hits lair he poops tumors., a bit easier since you don't invest into ups, and it's faster without ups
I can see the early walking, but sometimes you want them home to defend (ie hellion runbys and whatnot. so say you walked them out early, you want to return back quickly (and not lose overlords to anti air in the middle of the map) you can load queens up and take them home. The cost is definitely an issue though but think of this as investment for damage that may help more in the long run. ( stopping bases and having super mobility. We can do roach drops, infestor drops and maybe even swarmhost drops early on. This all forces the opponent to get detection or scans which can be costly )
The idea behind this is the same as early medivac/thor defense. maybe your thors are at your third, but you want them to be in your main to defend. We can pickup/boost back into the main and unload thors for defense.
I'm not sure about TLO's timing, maybe he found that he was able to get home to defend at a good time and such
On January 29 2014 08:53 ArcDawn wrote: I can see the early walking, but sometimes you want them home to defend (ie hellion runbys and whatnot. so say you walked them out early, you want to return back quickly (and not lose overlords to anti air in the middle of the map) you can load queens up and take them home. The cost is definitely an issue though but think of this as investment for damage that may help more in the long run. ( stopping bases and having super mobility. We can do roach drops, infestor drops and maybe even swarmhost drops early on. This all forces the opponent to get detection or scans which can be costly )
The idea behind this is the same as early medivac/thor defense. maybe your thors are at your third, but you want them to be in your main to defend. We can pickup/boost back into the main and unload thors for defense.
I'm not sure about TLO's timing, maybe he found that he was able to get home to defend at a good time and such
Hm, good point. Have you done this often in games? What time do you usually finish the ups and start spreading creep?
On January 29 2014 08:53 ArcDawn wrote: I can see the early walking, but sometimes you want them home to defend (ie hellion runbys and whatnot. so say you walked them out early, you want to return back quickly (and not lose overlords to anti air in the middle of the map) you can load queens up and take them home. The cost is definitely an issue though but think of this as investment for damage that may help more in the long run. ( stopping bases and having super mobility. We can do roach drops, infestor drops and maybe even swarmhost drops early on. This all forces the opponent to get detection or scans which can be costly )
The idea behind this is the same as early medivac/thor defense. maybe your thors are at your third, but you want them to be in your main to defend. We can pickup/boost back into the main and unload thors for defense.
I'm not sure about TLO's timing, maybe he found that he was able to get home to defend at a good time and such
Why not just spend 150 minerals on a special "Rambo" Queen, which will only do a creep in the far locations from the base?
On January 29 2014 08:53 ArcDawn wrote: I can see the early walking, but sometimes you want them home to defend (ie hellion runbys and whatnot. so say you walked them out early, you want to return back quickly (and not lose overlords to anti air in the middle of the map) you can load queens up and take them home. The cost is definitely an issue though but think of this as investment for damage that may help more in the long run. ( stopping bases and having super mobility. We can do roach drops, infestor drops and maybe even swarmhost drops early on. This all forces the opponent to get detection or scans which can be costly )
The idea behind this is the same as early medivac/thor defense. maybe your thors are at your third, but you want them to be in your main to defend. We can pickup/boost back into the main and unload thors for defense.
I'm not sure about TLO's timing, maybe he found that he was able to get home to defend at a good time and such
Hm, good point. Have you done this often in games? What time do you usually finish the ups and start spreading creep?
from basic testing, I found that I can have a copious amount of gas while still getting the upgrade at about 10 minutes or so. You will have room to get lings early or a few banes but you might delay the spire for a few seconds. ( due to minerals) it's not very delaying if you defend well early and not overmake lings. (By that I mean still around 10 minute spire and if you are making a lot of lings, your spire will be delayed anyways). At least, this is in my experience.
On January 29 2014 08:53 ArcDawn wrote: I can see the early walking, but sometimes you want them home to defend (ie hellion runbys and whatnot. so say you walked them out early, you want to return back quickly (and not lose overlords to anti air in the middle of the map) you can load queens up and take them home. The cost is definitely an issue though but think of this as investment for damage that may help more in the long run. ( stopping bases and having super mobility. We can do roach drops, infestor drops and maybe even swarmhost drops early on. This all forces the opponent to get detection or scans which can be costly )
The idea behind this is the same as early medivac/thor defense. maybe your thors are at your third, but you want them to be in your main to defend. We can pickup/boost back into the main and unload thors for defense.
I'm not sure about TLO's timing, maybe he found that he was able to get home to defend at a good time and such
Why not just spend 150 minerals on a special "Rambo" Queen, which will only do a creep in the far locations from the base?
That's possible but from testing, that's not a very good use of minerals + risk factor (if it gets destroyed before it creeps, then it's useless). It will be trapped outside creep and not be able to creep a lot at a time. (the overlord speed+transport allows fast queen movement to creep multiple places at once and come back to defend) I would much rather creep and then send it back fast than rely on the off chance my queen doesn't get caught in the middle of the map but that's a stylistic choice.
I guess it comes down to what do you want to use your gas on? To be honest most games gas is the limiting factor until maxed armies. If you are macroing well you should be limited by gas. To take some of that important gas from upgrades/units is not ideal.
However, in saying that, I have often thought about implementing this on larger maps in the late game to block expansions. Just one queen and an overlord drop will allow you to block every expansion in the game in a way that is very annoying to deal with.
The other thing with this kind of idea is ensuring that you make good use of the drop ability. Do some baneling bombs on mineral lines. Do zergling drops for backstabs in the base. Roach army drops on mech etc. I think if you sink this up with another build that utilizes drop it is fine. If it just a stand alone ability it is probably a waste.
On January 29 2014 10:57 zasg wrote: I guess it comes down to what do you want to use your gas on? To be honest most games gas is the limiting factor until maxed armies. If you are macroing well you should be limited by gas. To take some of that important gas from upgrades/units is not ideal.
However, in saying that, I have often thought about implementing this on larger maps in the late game to block expansions. Just one queen and an overlord drop will allow you to block every expansion in the game in a way that is very annoying to deal with.
The other thing with this kind of idea is ensuring that you make good use of the drop ability. Do some baneling bombs on mineral lines. Do zergling drops for backstabs in the base. Roach army drops on mech etc. I think if you sink this up with another build that utilizes drop it is fine. If it just a stand alone ability it is probably a waste.
early game zerg is usually mineral heavy. That said, it is useful to have the drop ability simply for stuff like you said (baneling drops/roach drops/ultra drops) unless there's a huge attack early on, there's not a big reason to be using gas. The two big gas users are probably if you are aiming for a roach timing or if you are massing roaches. In that case, you shouldn't need to worry about this harass being so early because roaches + speed are pretty mobile. If you are making only a few roaches for defense purposes, I can tell you it won't delay your early build for very long. Before you get mutas, from testing, it's possible to have everything line up with spire slightly delayed from minerals if you overmake lings.
On January 29 2014 11:24 tili wrote: Also- on another note, I really think this should not be termed creep harass.... It's not a harass at all.
well my thought is that you use it to indirectly harass the would-be bases of the opponent. (thus harassing not only their control of the map but harassing their potential economy) If you think of a better term, please let me know! (I just think it's cool to say CREEP HARASS! )
On January 29 2014 11:24 tili wrote: Also- on another note, I really think this should not be termed creep harass.... It's not a harass at all.
Well, it's more like "harass on a meta-level", so this is not just basic harass, like runby with something and kill 5-10 workers or building addon or forge, it's more like "strategical harass", where it blocks enemy expansions and constantly reveals territories for yourself. .
I have tried it but not having a queen for defensive is tough, especially against a reaper opening. the best method is to spread creep near a bit further away from your third (TLO cancel hatch style) because the extra creep helps immensively against hellion reaper (with or without banshee) pressure when you grab your third.
On January 29 2014 14:04 ETisME wrote: I have tried it but not having a queen for defensive is tough, especially against a reaper opening. the best method is to spread creep near a bit further away from your third (TLO cancel hatch style) because the extra creep helps immensively against hellion reaper (with or without banshee) pressure when you grab your third.
The overlords help to transport queens faster for defense as well. Hypothetically, say your queens are really far out for this creep hararss and there's pressure at your third. you can bring the queens back via overlord transport + other queens from bases slightly faster because you can transfer easily via dropship. So, it's not about queens being out of position rather than just not having enough units to defend. Ofc, this style of play requires some APMs. Not saying it's easy, but this strategy allows for you to be offensive and defensive with your queens. Reaper openings shouldn't be a problem because you should have queens at your bases anyways. The dropship queens are extra creep spreading queens (ie. if you do a 4 queen build you will have 1 queen at each base and either 1-2 extra creep queens) Those extra queens can be flown out at about the 10-11 minute mark for creep harass or if you need them at home you can fly them over to defend
On January 29 2014 14:04 ETisME wrote: I have tried it but not having a queen for defensive is tough, especially against a reaper opening. the best method is to spread creep near a bit further away from your third (TLO cancel hatch style) because the extra creep helps immensively against hellion reaper (with or without banshee) pressure when you grab your third.
The overlords help to transport queens faster for defense as well. Hypothetically, say your queens are really far out for this creep hararss and there's pressure at your third. you can bring the queens back via overlord transport + other queens from bases slightly faster because you can transfer easily via dropship. So, it's not about queens being out of position rather than just not having enough units to defend. Ofc, this style of play requires some APMs. Not saying it's easy, but this strategy allows for you to be offensive and defensive with your queens. Reaper openings shouldn't be a problem because you should have queens at your bases anyways. The dropship queens are extra creep spreading queens (ie. if you do a 4 queen build you will have 1 queen at each base and either 1-2 extra creep queens) Those extra queens can be flown out at about the 10-11 minute mark for creep harass or if you need them at home you can fly them over to defend
It sounds incredibly pricey just to creep their third location though. 300/300 is a huge investment early on, and that you have to delay get ling speed /upgrades/ lair to compensate. and if you delay speed, the follow up hellion banshee reaper harass (maybe with or without some marines) would just kill your third right there easily
On January 29 2014 14:04 ETisME wrote: I have tried it but not having a queen for defensive is tough, especially against a reaper opening. the best method is to spread creep near a bit further away from your third (TLO cancel hatch style) because the extra creep helps immensively against hellion reaper (with or without banshee) pressure when you grab your third.
The overlords help to transport queens faster for defense as well. Hypothetically, say your queens are really far out for this creep hararss and there's pressure at your third. you can bring the queens back via overlord transport + other queens from bases slightly faster because you can transfer easily via dropship. So, it's not about queens being out of position rather than just not having enough units to defend. Ofc, this style of play requires some APMs. Not saying it's easy, but this strategy allows for you to be offensive and defensive with your queens. Reaper openings shouldn't be a problem because you should have queens at your bases anyways. The dropship queens are extra creep spreading queens (ie. if you do a 4 queen build you will have 1 queen at each base and either 1-2 extra creep queens) Those extra queens can be flown out at about the 10-11 minute mark for creep harass or if you need them at home you can fly them over to defend
It sounds incredibly pricey just to creep their third location though. 300/300 is a huge investment early on, and that you have to delay get ling speed /upgrades/ lair to compensate. and if you delay speed, the follow up hellion banshee reaper harass (maybe with or without some marines) would just kill your third right there easily
I found that I was able to get speed and ups and lair on time (at least without noticeable delay) also, creeping not only their 3rd but also their 4th 5th etc etc. you can creep wherever you want generally as long as you have mobility of your queens.
do you ppl really rely on queens to defend in the mid-late game? wtf lol. if you spend so many resources on ol drops you lose potential income since youre not investing in early eco. plus if protoss goes all in ur dead. and if terran goes 3cc ur behind.
so your argument for drops and speed is that the queens can come back and defend ?
in my opinion it's not worth a discussion. unless you are already going for dropplay one slow queen that is made from your second hatch will already do more than enough creep. bear in mind how micro intense the game already is for zerg . do you really want to add another huge apm /cost investment (450/300 over 150/0) for something that doesn't deal direct economic damage?
2 base play is unaffected by this "harass ". 2 base play is also the thing where you can't have that many resources tied up in queen drops
ithink about making 8 roaches instead. they could deny a third better and defend. and possibly even do damage. and they cost less gas. and they don't require load unload apm.
On January 30 2014 03:17 weikor wrote: so your argument for drops and speed is that the queens can come back and defend ?
in my opinion it's not worth a discussion. unless you are already going for dropplay one slow queen that is made from your second hatch will already do more than enough creep. bear in mind how micro intense the game already is for zerg . do you really want to add another huge apm /cost investment (450/300 over 150/0) for something that doesn't deal direct economic damage?
2 base play is unaffected by this "harass ". 2 base play is also the thing where you can't have that many resources tied up in queen drops
ithink about making 8 roaches instead. they could deny a third better and defend. and possibly even do damage. and they cost less gas. and they don't require load unload apm.
Some good points but you are able to build defenses against 2 base play before it's necessary to get speed drops (ie, if you must, you can opt to have one evo + roaches or build lots of speedling + few banes). In that case, it becomes "can I live" rather than "can I harass". for timing attacks that come near 10-12, it's still possible to defend, just don't send the queens out and build army. You will have the money to do so. It's a stylistic choice to do something like direct vs indirect damage as 8 roaches may do some little damage early on, but researching drop + speed will last the remainder of the game. To which you can use to harass or do other things. The micro aspect is a definite challenge, but it's not impossibly hard. you only need to drop 2-3 tumors before sending them home which means the time of actually performing that micro is not too much. The only other micro portion is spreading the creep which you can cycle through as you usually do with some 1-3 extra locations. It would be an APM investment, but not a humongous one. In the case that you defend the 2 base attack, they are put in a bad spot and you with the queen drop harass can make it an even worse spot by forcing them to invest in observers and wait for the creep to recede before they can plant the base. All this delay time gives you time and the map control advantage.
Also, this is a relatively unexplored technique (like mech) so please try it. (Preferably high level players that can execute it without loosing too much focus/macro/micro)
On January 29 2014 21:39 agahamsorr0w wrote: do you ppl really rely on queens to defend in the mid-late game? wtf lol. if you spend so many resources on ol drops you lose potential income since youre not investing in early eco. plus if protoss goes all in ur dead. and if terran goes 3cc ur behind.
Queens can be used early midgame (about 10-12) to transfuse spines and stuff in the case of all in or do deal with pesky harass. You will have money to defend any 10-12 minute 2 base timings assuming you keep up good macro. With this style, you won't be affected too much as long as you deal economic damage to the opponent. You will always be ahead because they won't be able to make their bases until the creep goes away and you can just expand and defend as you see fit. Meanwhile, you can be like terran and do roach/ling/bane drops and do various drop harass to keep your momentum after the initial queen drops.
Update, video will be up soon. Please try this tactic (unranked so you don't lose points if you aren't familiar with it) if you are masters + or you have good multitasking ability. (I'm sayin' like 180 APM and you're comfortably focused)
In the video I accidentally put an overlay on the supply >< (don't hurt me I'm sorry) But I do get supply blocked so I wasn't able to produce drones for 20-30 seconds. The timings should be a lot nicer if you make overlords at the right times.
Some adjustments to the build are: If you are going Roach Hydra, make one evo chamber and one roach warren instead of double evos. (unless I'm mistaken, the minerals are too tight to squeeze both of them in. If you are able to drone up, without making army, be aware that you can take a third or get double ups + roachwarren. Everything comes down to the scouting and managing your economy.
Please post a video response of you trying this strategy if you can
Here's some applications/reasons to do this before there are more "It's not worth it" posts: 1. It's fun lol <- biggest point 2. Every base that you creep up is a delay of a base for up to 80+ seconds, that's a long delay of a single base. More tumors means more trouble/longer recede due to radius. You can potentially delay a base for minutes. 3. by denying bases and getting map control, you are free to take bases when you see a chance (not getting attacked by an army) 4. In the end 300/300 investment would've paid for itself because of the added ability to drop the opponent as well. 5. the map control it provides allows you to see the attacks coming and since the area of creep is so massive, it's hard to clear away effectively unless you have an observer (another forced commitment). 6, It is a way for you to control the opponent instead of letting the opponent control you. (command zerg vs reaction zerg)
Not saying you guys can't criticize, but try to have some proof/backup to the criticism.
-Currently, timings aren't an issue from my testing, it's possible to get everything with minor slight delay -Queens are able to be mobile with ovie drops so no more worry about a lone queen getting caught in the middle of nowhere. (which is a waste of 100 minerals) -Ovie creep highways are a nice idea, but require too much attention/APM/and high risk, low reward. It's also not as mobile as Queens in overlords. -You are able to build a significant force while going for this early research. Also it's non committal because the research happens later in the game. So if you scout and be smart you will live.
You could emulate a similar effect by researching Burrow and burrowing a unit(s) at their bases and then use Generate Creep on the expansions as soon as you naturally decide to hit Lair tech. You would save a ton of resources, time and APM this way (the actions are even Shift-Queue-able). If you rely on forcing Scans later on, then Burrow might even do a better job than what is shown in the OP. Depending on how paranoid you can make the Terran, Burrow can be a huge nuisance. You can do a lot of fancy defensive burrowing at home or at the edge of surging creep lanes in the event of any harassment, and the best part is it's applicable to most standard play.
The enemy sees the creep, tries to kill off the Overlord (likely succeeds depending on what units are present), waits for the creep to recede, then orders a worker to build there. It then cancels because of the burrowed unit, and now they need to grab detection, kill the one Ling or whatever, and then re-order the build command and wait for their base to finish. During this, you're notified, they are delayed, you saved yourself from taking an earlier Lair and spending 300+ gas that could have gone elsewhere. Chances are you're getting Ling speed as well, so it's all pretty seamless and streamlined if you decide to block expos this way instead of drops/Queens/Overlords.
If creeping all over your opponent's side is your plan, then alternatively you can just walk a Queen and Drone out and proxy a Hatch, cancel it, and plant tumors on the canceled Hatch's creep. This costs a fair investment of minerals, but the Queen can drop multiple Tumors on arrival, and it doesn't force premature gas mining/Lair morphing whatsoever. This too hits before Lair, so that's good. It's basically this, minus the Spine Crawler cheese.
The method you outline is definitely fun to see-- no denying that, but in a competitive arena where resources are tight, you'll want to put forth the minimum required effort and minimum amount of resources for the most effect and it has to happen within the right time frame. You could shave as much as 4 full minutes off your current build video and still get rolled by some sort of all-in or timing minutes before you even touch their expos with creep. With timed attacks and all-ins that come your way, your build will be pushed back/de-railed, and more importantly, your window of opportunity will shrink. I believe Burrow/Generate Creep is the method that achieves the goal of annoying base blocking while providing vision with the smallest investment while hitting within the largest opportunity window. I'll try to back this up as simply as I can.
Lings are waaaaay quicker and cheaper than Queens. Say what you want about opportunity loss from the 3 Larvae, but if you don't scout you can and should lose. Queens don't aid in scouting, but Lings and Overlords do.
Burrow research and Lings are available at Hatch tech and Burrow costs 100/100/100
Add another 100 minerals for 2 pairs of Lings in addition to the 1 pair of initial scouting Lings. With that, you wind up with a grand total of 250/100/124-148. That's 2 Lings for blocking the 3rd and 4th bases, 2 for attack paths and 2 near their front. Also, not being generous at all with the time required.
Hits before Lair
Meanwhile,
Pneumatized Carapace costs 100/100/60
Lair costs 150/100/80
Ventral Sacs costs a whopping 200/200/130
Add your two Queens that are spreading the creep, 300/0/25-50, and you've got a minimum cost of 750/400/300 (being generous with the time costs as execution and build optimizations can lower/increase this).
Always must hit after Lair
A 500/300/176-152 difference. Just imagine what you could afford with those extra resources, all the while denying bases annoyingly. You're also free to push creep from your base and Burrow can make it a bit more safer for the Queens.
If you can tweak the build a whole lot more then go for it and show us how it's done! New discoveries in SC2 are few and far between these days, so it's always exciting to see something different! Keep experimenting and see what you can squeeze out of the idea.
in wol when it was common for terran to go for hellion banshee into mech I saw a fair amount of zergs do this to me in masters. Its prity good against builds which are really threatened by bad positioning. I saw one zerg do this to me and then when i tried to clear the creep he would take advantage of it and snipe tons of my mech units with roaches, admittedly he did this on a semi 2 base econ.
Anything which denies a meching terran three base is really helpful to zerg vs mech. plus vs mech usually zerg is in less need of gas since you will be focusing less on mutas and more on roaches. Also the drop tech is actually rather good agianst mech as at best you cand rop the terrans main and realy hurt thier production and at worst your force them to build lots of turrets, and vikings which reduces the size of thier core ground army as well as the helion count.
vs a bio terran I'm more skeptical about how relvent this would be, certainly annoying but probably not as threatening for a terran as either being dropped, which can actually be prity good, or worse yet being kept back by mutas, and a delay to mutas makes it easier for t to drop harass bye quite a bit.
as for protoss I dont play them much so I would not realy know what effect it would have against them.
On January 30 2014 16:20 eneyeseekay wrote: You could emulate a similar effect by researching Burrow and burrowing a unit(s) at their bases and then use Generate Creep on the expansions as soon as you naturally decide to hit Lair tech. You would save a ton of resources, time and APM this way (the actions are even Shift-Queue-able). If you rely on forcing Scans later on, then Burrow might even do a better job than what is shown in the OP. Depending on how paranoid you can make the Terran, Burrow can be a huge nuisance. You can do a lot of fancy defensive burrowing at home or at the edge of surging creep lanes in the event of any harassment, and the best part is it's applicable to most standard play.
The enemy sees the creep, tries to kill off the Overlord (likely succeeds depending on what units are present), waits for the creep to recede, then orders a worker to build there. It then cancels because of the burrowed unit, and now they need to grab detection, kill the one Ling or whatever, and then re-order the build command and wait for their base to finish. During this, you're notified, they are delayed, you saved yourself from taking an earlier Lair and spending 300+ gas that could have gone elsewhere. Chances are you're getting Ling speed as well, so it's all pretty seamless and streamlined if you decide to block expos this way instead of drops/Queens/Overlords.
If creeping all over your opponent's side is your plan, then alternatively you can just walk a Queen and Drone out and proxy a Hatch, cancel it, and plant tumors on the canceled Hatch's creep. This costs a fair investment of minerals, but the Queen can drop multiple Tumors on arrival, and it doesn't force premature gas mining/Lair morphing whatsoever. This too hits before Lair, so that's good. It's basically this, minus the Spine Crawler cheese.
The method you outline is definitely fun to see-- no denying that, but in a competitive arena where resources are tight, you'll want to put forth the minimum required effort and minimum amount of resources for the most effect and it has to happen within the right time frame. You could shave as much as 4 full minutes off your current build video and still get rolled by some sort of all-in or timing minutes before you even touch their expos with creep. With timed attacks and all-ins that come your way, your build will be pushed back/de-railed, and more importantly, your window of opportunity will shrink. I believe Burrow/Generate Creep is the method that achieves the goal of annoying base blocking while providing vision with the smallest investment while hitting within the largest opportunity window. I'll try to back this up as simply as I can.
Lings are waaaaay quicker and cheaper than Queens. Say what you want about opportunity loss from the 3 Larvae, but if you don't scout you can and should lose. Queens don't aid in scouting, but Lings and Overlords do.
Burrow research and Lings are available at Hatch tech and Burrow costs 100/100/100
Add another 100 minerals for 2 pairs of Lings in addition to the 1 pair of initial scouting Lings. With that, you wind up with a grand total of 250/100/124-148. That's 2 Lings for blocking the 3rd and 4th bases, 2 for attack paths and 2 near their front. Also, not being generous at all with the time required.
Hits before Lair
Meanwhile,
Pneumatized Carapace costs 100/100/60
Lair costs 150/100/80
Ventral Sacs costs a whopping 200/200/130
Add your two Queens that are spreading the creep, 300/0/25-50, and you've got a minimum cost of 750/400/300 (being generous with the time costs as execution and build optimizations can lower/increase this).
Always must hit after Lair
A 500/300/176-152 difference. Just imagine what you could afford with those extra resources, all the while denying bases annoyingly. You're also free to push creep from your base and Burrow can make it a bit more safer for the Queens.
If you can tweak the build a whole lot more then go for it and show us how it's done! New discoveries in SC2 are few and far between these days, so it's always exciting to see something different! Keep experimenting and see what you can squeeze out of the idea.
Interesting. Actually I might try to see if reseaching burrow / over speed -> dropship later might be a good way to approach this as burrow does have minimaml delay + the benefits you describe early on EDIT: I do think, if you want to do it this way, the lings/creep would have to be for delay purposes and while you harass, build up the upgrades. I want to try this and adjust the build so queen drops can be viable! stay tuned!
UPDATE: The total cost is factored in such a way that you didn't include queens in your other build. The queens built here are queens what would've been built anyways for defense. I don't think any zerg only relies on 1 queen per base. The timing is important but the time it takes to make something cannot simply be added like that. Things can be produced simultaneously. If you want to compare costs, compare costs relatively. If you are getting a lair later anyways or queens, don't factor those costs in because those will be eventual costs. The actual comparison would be something like 250/100 compared to 300/300 <- these are the actual comparisons because these are deviations from an otherwise normal build. so the actual difference is 50min/200gas which is a high Templar and a half which isn't really TOO much. However, I kind of like the burrow as a delay tactic. Will see how this goes
Like i mentioned before, i dont think this is viable or worth it as a straight tech to drop & speed & queen.
However what about going for a build where you go for go for fast drops, drop the terran with roaches, or whatever you think can work. Then you could use that tech to implement the strategy you are trying to do without wasting as many recources.
The problem i see with that (or drop research in general) is that there is no standard opening for drops. The reason for that is at the highest level all recources matter - or the opponents army can snowball out of control too much.
On January 30 2014 22:42 weikor wrote: Like i mentioned before, i dont think this is viable or worth it as a straight tech to drop & speed & queen.
However what about going for a build where you go for go for fast drops, drop the terran with roaches, or whatever you think can work. Then you could use that tech to implement the strategy you are trying to do without wasting as many recources.
The problem i see with that (or drop research in general) is that there is no standard opening for drops. The reason for that is at the highest level all recources matter - or the opponents army can snowball out of control too much.
The build itself is still in testing so I'm trying to optimize it better
The build isn't so much a tech tech tech build but more like a build where you get tech alongside other things (lings for def/offence or roaches or aggressive expansions)
while optimized, I'm pretty sure that aside from slight delay of 10 seconds ish, the resources invested is approximately two mutas or a few roaches. I'm not a perfect player so I haven't been able to macro up as well as most zergs do so I'm not completely sure about the way minerals affect the timings. Drop tech can be used midgame to do queen harass with queens that were built already (usually 3-5 depending on style, I like to go 4 queens) and it can be used to do midgame drops and harass. It's really what you do with the tech that makes things worth it or not.
Kind of a small bump, but for those of you that are new to this thread, please check out the video before you decide whether there's problems with the build. And if anyone has any ideas of how to more easily streamline it let me know! Also just some streamlining ideas: We are assuming in the build in the video that you want to get quick 1-1 upgrades, metabolic boost, baneling nest, and tier 2 tech as well as the overdrop research. If something is unnecessary (IE. you are going roach hydra and banes aren't a good investment) Try to see what happens you you don't go for it. However, from a timing perspective, a good zerg should be able to get all this + overdrops at about 10:00-10:20
On January 30 2014 22:42 weikor wrote: Like i mentioned before, i dont think this is viable or worth it as a straight tech to drop & speed & queen.
However what about going for a build where you go for go for fast drops, drop the terran with roaches, or whatever you think can work. Then you could use that tech to implement the strategy you are trying to do without wasting as many recources.
The problem i see with that (or drop research in general) is that there is no standard opening for drops. The reason for that is at the highest level all recources matter - or the opponents army can snowball out of control too much.
Yea- without further tweaking, this is never going to be optimal play, unless it's part of a larger drop strat.
However, in the spirit of innovating the meta, it's interesting/smart.
On January 30 2014 22:42 weikor wrote: Like i mentioned before, i dont think this is viable or worth it as a straight tech to drop & speed & queen.
However what about going for a build where you go for go for fast drops, drop the terran with roaches, or whatever you think can work. Then you could use that tech to implement the strategy you are trying to do without wasting as many recources.
The problem i see with that (or drop research in general) is that there is no standard opening for drops. The reason for that is at the highest level all recources matter - or the opponents army can snowball out of control too much.
Yea- without further tweaking, this is never going to be optimal play, unless it's part of a larger drop strat.
However, in the spirit of innovating the meta, it's interesting/smart.
I have some ideas about transition that use roaches, swarmhost, and/or infestors I will let you guys know what happens (or if you guys try it let me know!)
Also I have some ideas about using overlord drop for defense (similar to thor medivac defense to defend against mutas)
Im not that great at starcraft 2 so take what I say with a grain of salt, but it seems the drop upgrade would be usefull when you see a terran meching (as you can use that upgrade lategame to exploit mobility) if you get drops in the midgame why not go for bane drops in mineral lines as soon as they move out, etc. I don't see the investment in drops wasted at all if you synergise it with other plays.
On January 31 2014 10:43 The_Australian wrote: Im not that great at starcraft 2 so take what I say with a grain of salt, but it seems the drop upgrade would be usefull when you see a terran meching (as you can use that upgrade lategame to exploit mobility) if you get drops in the midgame why not go for bane drops in mineral lines as soon as they move out, etc. I don't see the investment in drops wasted at all if you synergise it with other plays.
I feel like that's the kind of thing we see little of because people just aren't used to getting this upgrade X( If people research this more often, we probably find zerg has more options that we thought
On January 31 2014 07:36 ArcDawn wrote: Kind of a small bump, but for those of you that are new to this thread, please check out the video before you decide whether there's problems with the build. And if anyone has any ideas of how to more easily streamline it let me know! Also just some streamlining ideas: We are assuming in the build in the video that you want to get quick 1-1 upgrades, metabolic boost, baneling nest, and tier 2 tech as well as the overdrop research. If something is unnecessary (IE. you are going roach hydra and banes aren't a good investment) Try to see what happens you you don't go for it. However, from a timing perspective, a good zerg should be able to get all this + overdrops at about 10:00-10:20
in the video it is a ZvZ?
it's a 2 base quick lair build, with quick 1 1 and baneling nest, delaying the third.
your queen in the video actually arrive on the third location at around 12 mins.
If we look at how the timing lines up in bomber's game, he almost always land it around 9 mins mark:
On January 31 2014 07:36 ArcDawn wrote: Kind of a small bump, but for those of you that are new to this thread, please check out the video before you decide whether there's problems with the build. And if anyone has any ideas of how to more easily streamline it let me know! Also just some streamlining ideas: We are assuming in the build in the video that you want to get quick 1-1 upgrades, metabolic boost, baneling nest, and tier 2 tech as well as the overdrop research. If something is unnecessary (IE. you are going roach hydra and banes aren't a good investment) Try to see what happens you you don't go for it. However, from a timing perspective, a good zerg should be able to get all this + overdrops at about 10:00-10:20
in the video it is a ZvZ?
it's a 2 base quick lair build, with quick 1 1 and baneling nest, delaying the third.
your queen in the video actually arrive on the third location at around 12 mins.
Yeah it was a zvz but that's kind of irrelevant as I was only showcasing the strategy and the timings in an environment in which I may or may not be attacked by stuff. do you have a timestamp?
if you click on the video, it will jump to the point when bomber is about to land it. it's all different point of the game, but you need to wait for it to load a little (it will load up your last timestamp first but give it a few seconds)
I believe Nestea pioneered this in the GSL a few years back, he walked a queen up with an overlord on antiga shipyard. while he lost his queen he delayed the expo for quite a while.
On January 31 2014 23:01 [MIG]kenny wrote: I believe Nestea pioneered this in the GSL a few years back, he walked a queen up with an overlord on antiga shipyard. while he lost his queen he delayed the expo for quite a while.
Back then though, it was impossible to have drop + ovie speed anywhere near optimal time. Now we can do it + save the queen because speed lords upgrade is able to be researched sooner.
I watched the video and it looks like scarlett is banking quite some unused gas early-mid game. This unused gas will skyrocket as the gas at the 3rd is taken thus allowing a lot of production+ economy that a 300/300 investment won't be such a big deal. (2 mutas really not a big deal) The harass may not come out on time to creep the third on a large map, but you can still delay every other base extremely easily. + it's good to have that map vision + speed boost while going for perhaps 3 base roach drops or bane drops etc
There was a strat involving this a long time ago in WoL when it just came out, I can't remember where I have seen it. But you are basically investing in tons of gas which could have been more Mutas or banes in exchange for Vision and speed. Cons outweight the pros though, I would rather have more mutas and spread my creep like how i always do. Though different people have different preference. Will keep this tactic though, might be fun to use it sometime.
On February 01 2014 10:07 ArcDawn wrote: I watched the video and it looks like scarlett is banking quite some unused gas early-mid game. This unused gas will skyrocket as the gas at the 3rd is taken thus allowing a lot of production+ economy that a 300/300 investment won't be such a big deal. (2 mutas really not a big deal) The harass may not come out on time to creep the third on a large map, but you can still delay every other base extremely easily. + it's good to have that map vision + speed boost while going for perhaps 3 base roach drops or bane drops etc
Scarlett banks gas in the early-mid game so she can make mutas when the spire finishes as every other Zerg player does.
No matter how you look at it, researching drops early in the game for the somewhat dubious reward of delaying the fourth will always be costly. Investment and pay-off are also very far apart and the pay-off isn't even that good given the economy of SC2 where three bases basically give you enough to kill your opponent. Two mutas may not sound that much, and you won't lose solely because of the drop upgrade, but fights in ZvT are often so close that both sides often only have 10% or so of their forces left after them, and a few banelings or mutas can easily be the difference between holding a base and losing it.
What might be worth trying out is getting lair and overlord speed earlier than normal, sneaking a queen to their third base, and creeping there as much as possible with the help of several overlords. This seems more likely to be worth it and you're not getting upgrades specifically for that purpose; only delaying some.
On February 01 2014 10:07 ArcDawn wrote: I watched the video and it looks like scarlett is banking quite some unused gas early-mid game. This unused gas will skyrocket as the gas at the 3rd is taken thus allowing a lot of production+ economy that a 300/300 investment won't be such a big deal. (2 mutas really not a big deal) The harass may not come out on time to creep the third on a large map, but you can still delay every other base extremely easily. + it's good to have that map vision + speed boost while going for perhaps 3 base roach drops or bane drops etc
Scarlett banks gas in the early-mid game so she can make mutas when the spire finishes as every other Zerg player does.
No matter how you look at it, researching drops early in the game for the somewhat dubious reward of delaying the fourth will always be costly. Investment and pay-off are also very far apart and the pay-off isn't even that good given the economy of SC2 where three bases basically give you enough to kill your opponent. Two mutas may not sound that much, and you won't lose solely because of the drop upgrade, but fights in ZvT are often so close that both sides often only have 10% or so of their forces left after them, and a few banelings or mutas can easily be the difference between holding a base and losing it.
What might be worth trying out is getting lair and overlord speed earlier than normal, sneaking a queen to their third base, and creeping there as much as possible with the help of several overlords. This seems more likely to be worth it and you're not getting upgrades specifically for that purpose; only delaying some.
I agree that if you are researching upgrades to specifically delay the fourth, you are playing this strategy wrong. However, that's only one benefit out of many. (I have posted about it) Zerg has also been inexperienced with drop play so that may be why people are afraid of using it. Yes three base economy is amazing but you have literally the ability to take every base on the map if you have vision and what does that mean? It means that you also have the ability to defend any attack that comes at you because of vision. And because creep provides mobility. Say you do defend and now the mains run out of money. Terrans must expand to stay alive and if they can't you become more ahead exponentially. All the lost scans and time that Terran has to put in to expand lets you build up and straight up kill him. Why I say that you might not be able to delay the 3rd is plenty of reasons: 1. terran scouts third which means he will also get early third and that zergs can't do much against it anyhow except build up econ and defensive units. 2. map is too big so even if you had speed vacs you probably wouldn't make it but that also means you can creep every other base and safely take 4-5-6 etc because of vision 3. the timings aren't streamlined-optimal so I have no idea how fast it actually is to get at the fastest/best speed
Some things to back up points: with every base that you deny, you get both vision and knowledge of their base timings as well as denying it for some time. Creep tumors deny way longer than over creeps. Thus you say why not just walk a queen? You can and that's a good idea too. but now you are only creeping one location and then getting caught. Queens + speedlord drop can send queens to lots of places in a short time. More of a stylistic thing than anything really. Also, 2 mutas may make a difference in low numbers but mutas snowball really fast. At that point 2 mutas are insignificant. I don't think most people have ever lost a base and thought to themselves "If only I built two more mutas" because when that happens, it's not because of the mutas rather because of bad positioning/bad map vision/inferior army. And in a big scale battle, you shouldn't have an inferior army due to good macro. Lets say a normal sized army is 30 mutas 70 lings and 10 banelings. Do you really think it would be such a drastic change if it were 28 mutas 70 lings and 10 banelings? (if so provide some evidence) When you do engage, you pick off key units and surround with your lings/banes. When surrounded, Terran's army will melt (assuming you know how to deal with mines in which you basically split up your lings when you go in and use overseer so you can kill the remaining mines)
Going for drop tech means, it's possible to go drops thus, it'd probably be cool if we transition into drop play. (banedrops, roach drops, mass lord drops. infestor hit squad, etc.
On February 01 2014 18:24 SeventhPride wrote: There was a strat involving this a long time ago in WoL when it just came out, I can't remember where I have seen it. But you are basically investing in tons of gas which could have been more Mutas or banes in exchange for Vision and speed. Cons outweight the pros though, I would rather have more mutas and spread my creep like how i always do. Though different people have different preference. Will keep this tactic though, might be fun to use it sometime.
It's merely a style of play and I'm not sure people have realized the potential yet. Tell me how it goes if you try it
It's good. You don't need to upgrade drop, simple make tumors and shift-right-click overlord and order to move overlord to new location. If you have apm and not die because you make those queens, it's good thing.
Just go on the ladder and try this yourself, ArcDawn. Don't expect to convince masters-level players here to pick it up—strategies spread when other people win with them, not because they're backed up with lengthy argumentation. Even if you presented the winning strategies of tomorrow here, people would still be skeptical.
Once you play more ZvTs, I think you will be tempted to cut the drop upgrade for more units. But the general idea is good as several people already said. It's just that the drop upgrade cost isn't as insignificant as you make it to be.
On February 02 2014 04:06 velvex wrote: Just go on the ladder and try this yourself, ArcDawn. Don't expect to convince masters-level players here to pick it up—strategies spread when other people win with them, not because they're backed up with lengthy argumentation. Even if you presented the winning strategies of tomorrow here, people would still be skeptical.
Once you play more ZvTs, I think you will be tempted to cut the drop upgrade for more units. But the general idea is good as several people already said. It's just that the drop upgrade cost isn't as insignificant as you make it to be.
Yes I do plan to try this on ladder more. However, it wouldn't be harmful to have some higher level players try it and to get some insight.
I understand people can be skeptical about it but we all got to try something new sometime right?
I'll try my best to get some more replays and vods out, but I'm really shooting for people to give this a shot! (That's what unranked's for )
I just played a ZvT for you where I put a lot of creep at the Terran's fourth, preventing him from taking it. I didn't feel I needed the drop upgrade in any way.
I'm currently in diamond league, so terrible macro and engagements are included. It wasn't a very close game overall, but at least you can see the nice effect where creep stays even without overlords or tumours as long as it is surrounded by creep generators.
On February 02 2014 07:12 velvex wrote: I just played a ZvT for you where I put a lot of creep at the Terran's fourth, preventing him from taking it. I didn't feel I needed the drop upgrade in any way.
I'm currently in diamond league, so terrible macro and engagements are included. It wasn't a very close game overall, but at least you can see the nice effect where creep stays even without overlords or tumours as long as it is surrounded by creep generators.
Here's a ZvT I played with someone. Admittably he's not the best mech terran, but it does show some adjustments I made (besides the fact that I suck at zerg lololol)
On February 02 2014 07:12 velvex wrote: I just played a ZvT for you where I put a lot of creep at the Terran's fourth, preventing him from taking it. I didn't feel I needed the drop upgrade in any way.
I'm currently in diamond league, so terrible macro and engagements are included. It wasn't a very close game overall, but at least you can see the nice effect where creep stays even without overlords or tumours as long as it is surrounded by creep generators.
Sorry for the late reply, I had things I had to do. Nice! i feel like you could've even expanded more aggressively. (Pretty much take every single base) For drops tho, I guess it's really a stylistic choice as well. You could probably use dropship ovies to drop banes or do some ultralisk harass in the main. Since he was stuck on 2-3 base, you were able to take a huge lead as well as know where he is.
Somethings I'm not sure about is, is T's third late or not? I feel like it would've been possible to actually creep it up before he lands and force scans or something.
At first I didn't like the investment, as others have said. However, I started using the Ovies for roach drops. Even if they aren't successful, at least your drop tech gets some more utility. I feel like drops are something more Zergs should try to use in the mid-late game, but that's just me
On February 18 2014 03:59 ArcDawn wrote: Somethings I'm not sure about is, is T's third late or not? I feel like it would've been possible to actually creep it up before he lands and force scans or something.
The Terran did a bio push before making a third CC. So, yes, the CC was late. It might be possible to annoy him with a creep tumour or two at his third, but then again, that queen would probably be more useful pushing for more creep at home.
My girlfriend actually thought of this when I first showed her how to play the game. I'm still convinced she is a SC genius waiting to be unlocked. If you are a player that likes to get ovi speed for scouting this seems like a completely reasonable thing to do once lair is done.
Unfortunately for me I'm not sure I have the APM to be doing this whilst keeping up my macro, scouting and mutalisk play.
How do you compare this to getting the burrow upgrade and just using OL creep spread with a burrowed ling to deny the expansion? It also gives vision, furthermore burrow is probably more useful throughout the game.
On February 19 2014 15:00 KelsierSC wrote: This is a really cool midgame tactic,
Unfortunately for me I'm not sure I have the APM to be doing this whilst keeping up my macro, scouting and mutalisk play.
How do you compare this to getting the burrow upgrade and just using OL creep spread with a burrowed ling to deny the expansion? It also gives vision, furthermore burrow is probably more useful throughout the game.
I dislike using overlord creep spread for bridging purposes on 2 player maps simply because they can be easily picked off. Burrow ling is also cool and can lead to burrow roach attacks. I guess you could do something like 4ling scout into burrow tech to make full use of the early lings. Compared to drop tech, it gives your ground units more mobility. imagine say there's a choke which is really easy to defend as the opponent. You could use drops to bypass or attack elsewhere. Also overlords cost 100 minerals and you can make infinity overlords. Applications in the mid/late game are reasonable. (IE roach/bane drops in the main while split pushing. Or, you know those annoying protoss attacks where they go into the main and ff the ramp? You could drop up to defend or something.
Yeah it's a stylistic thing really. Both are great tech pathes imo.
On February 19 2014 02:55 Doc Brawler wrote: My girlfriend actually thought of this when I first showed her how to play the game. I'm still convinced she is a SC genius waiting to be unlocked. If you are a player that likes to get ovi speed for scouting this seems like a completely reasonable thing to do once lair is done.
On February 18 2014 14:02 BootyCatcher wrote: At first I didn't like the investment, as others have said. However, I started using the Ovies for roach drops. Even if they aren't successful, at least your drop tech gets some more utility. I feel like drops are something more Zergs should try to use in the mid-late game, but that's just me
It's not a good reason to get drop in itself, but If you have a reason to get ventral sacs like for roach drops I can't think of a reason you shouldn't do this.
On February 18 2014 14:02 BootyCatcher wrote: At first I didn't like the investment, as others have said. However, I started using the Ovies for roach drops. Even if they aren't successful, at least your drop tech gets some more utility. I feel like drops are something more Zergs should try to use in the mid-late game, but that's just me
It's not a good reason to get drop in itself, but If you have a reason to get ventral sacs like for roach drops I can't think of a reason you shouldn't do this.
It's very stylistic imo because of the difference in the way classic zerg is played. With this style of playing, it's almost a mix of terran and zerg with the drop harass and you're getting way more mobility and more bases/denying bases as a result. A creeped up base can be delayed for up to 2 minutes! that's significant. And with the vision and mobility, you are able to mass expand. Also, overlords are pretty bulky and don't cost supply. I feel like people should probably try it out and innovate a little bit to see if there's any improvements/adjustments. Try not to think too linearly (like oh if you do this then you can't do this or if this happens then y happens) SC2 is a dynamic game, so in terms of thinking of a strategy, one should consider all possibilities and come up with arguments/counterarguments.
On February 18 2014 14:02 BootyCatcher wrote: At first I didn't like the investment, as others have said. However, I started using the Ovies for roach drops. Even if they aren't successful, at least your drop tech gets some more utility. I feel like drops are something more Zergs should try to use in the mid-late game, but that's just me
It's not a good reason to get drop in itself, but If you have a reason to get ventral sacs like for roach drops I can't think of a reason you shouldn't do this.
It's very stylistic imo because of the difference in the way classic zerg is played. With this style of playing, it's almost a mix of terran and zerg with the drop harass and you're getting way more mobility and more bases/denying bases as a result. A creeped up base can be delayed for up to 2 minutes! that's significant. And with the vision and mobility, you are able to mass expand. Also, overlords are pretty bulky and don't cost supply. I feel like people should probably try it out and innovate a little bit to see if there's any improvements/adjustments. Try not to think too linearly (like oh if you do this then you can't do this or if this happens then y happens) SC2 is a dynamic game, so in terms of thinking of a strategy, one should consider all possibilities and come up with arguments/counterarguments.
This is how we get creative/fun to watch plays
I think you are misunderstanding my point. You go for drop, it's ready around 10-11 min. You know what else happens at that time? Terrans and Protosses like to attack at 10-11 minutes. So you are investing 300/300 on something not designed to keep you from dying but to gunk up a 4th they might or might not be taking. If you walk a queen to the fourth and have a overlord poop creep you can do the same thing quicker and the queen can walk back and rejoin your army. If you want to incorporate drop then you need to find other purposes to justify the expense.
On February 18 2014 14:02 BootyCatcher wrote: At first I didn't like the investment, as others have said. However, I started using the Ovies for roach drops. Even if they aren't successful, at least your drop tech gets some more utility. I feel like drops are something more Zergs should try to use in the mid-late game, but that's just me
It's not a good reason to get drop in itself, but If you have a reason to get ventral sacs like for roach drops I can't think of a reason you shouldn't do this.
It's very stylistic imo because of the difference in the way classic zerg is played. With this style of playing, it's almost a mix of terran and zerg with the drop harass and you're getting way more mobility and more bases/denying bases as a result. A creeped up base can be delayed for up to 2 minutes! that's significant. And with the vision and mobility, you are able to mass expand. Also, overlords are pretty bulky and don't cost supply. I feel like people should probably try it out and innovate a little bit to see if there's any improvements/adjustments. Try not to think too linearly (like oh if you do this then you can't do this or if this happens then y happens) SC2 is a dynamic game, so in terms of thinking of a strategy, one should consider all possibilities and come up with arguments/counterarguments.
This is how we get creative/fun to watch plays
I think you are misunderstanding my point. You go for drop, it's ready around 10-11 min. You know what else happens at that time? Terrans and Protosses like to attack at 10-11 minutes. So you are investing 300/300 on something not designed to keep you from dying but to gunk up a 4th they might or might not be taking. If you walk a queen to the fourth and have a overlord poop creep you can do the same thing quicker and the queen can walk back and rejoin your army. If you want to incorporate drop then you need to find other purposes to justify the expense.
Your point is made but tactics revolving around overdrops can be used too for defense ofc. Example: the baneling drop. A more cost effective way to use your banes during an attack. (Due to the ability to not get blocked by lings.) Provide a flank from two sides (the proper way to engage) and drop them on the bio. Also, vs protoss, having drop tech specifically isn't a 100% counter to their plans. However, you are weighing the investment cost wayy too high. 300/300 isn't as much as it seems for a tech that lasts for the rest of the game. (Think if you only had to spend 300/300 + 100x for infinite dropships.) You will, 100% guarentee, have enough money to make units to defend any 10 minute attack I assure you. especially with the adjustments to the build I made. Also getting a surround is usually a good idea so you could use drops to drop roaches to surround or something akin to that. (w/ ground army support to help confuse his army) Overdrops can be used offensively and defensively. The queen can't simply walk back, there isn't enough time. Think about it for a sec, if you play on a 2 player map and your queen is all the way over on the other side, there is terrain hindering the return as well as easy pathes to get sniped off. Also, the bigger the map, the further you have to walk your queen through ungodly long long long terrain. ALSO big note, you have to consistantly creep that whole length of train of overlords or else walking back will not make it. If you get found out, your queens and your overlords pretty much die.
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