On January 29 2014 14:04 ETisME wrote: I have tried it but not having a queen for defensive is tough, especially against a reaper opening. the best method is to spread creep near a bit further away from your third (TLO cancel hatch style) because the extra creep helps immensively against hellion reaper (with or without banshee) pressure when you grab your third.
The overlords help to transport queens faster for defense as well. Hypothetically, say your queens are really far out for this creep hararss and there's pressure at your third. you can bring the queens back via overlord transport + other queens from bases slightly faster because you can transfer easily via dropship. So, it's not about queens being out of position rather than just not having enough units to defend. Ofc, this style of play requires some APMs. Not saying it's easy, but this strategy allows for you to be offensive and defensive with your queens. Reaper openings shouldn't be a problem because you should have queens at your bases anyways. The dropship queens are extra creep spreading queens (ie. if you do a 4 queen build you will have 1 queen at each base and either 1-2 extra creep queens) Those extra queens can be flown out at about the 10-11 minute mark for creep harass or if you need them at home you can fly them over to defend
It sounds incredibly pricey just to creep their third location though. 300/300 is a huge investment early on, and that you have to delay get ling speed /upgrades/ lair to compensate. and if you delay speed, the follow up hellion banshee reaper harass (maybe with or without some marines) would just kill your third right there easily
On January 29 2014 14:04 ETisME wrote: I have tried it but not having a queen for defensive is tough, especially against a reaper opening. the best method is to spread creep near a bit further away from your third (TLO cancel hatch style) because the extra creep helps immensively against hellion reaper (with or without banshee) pressure when you grab your third.
The overlords help to transport queens faster for defense as well. Hypothetically, say your queens are really far out for this creep hararss and there's pressure at your third. you can bring the queens back via overlord transport + other queens from bases slightly faster because you can transfer easily via dropship. So, it's not about queens being out of position rather than just not having enough units to defend. Ofc, this style of play requires some APMs. Not saying it's easy, but this strategy allows for you to be offensive and defensive with your queens. Reaper openings shouldn't be a problem because you should have queens at your bases anyways. The dropship queens are extra creep spreading queens (ie. if you do a 4 queen build you will have 1 queen at each base and either 1-2 extra creep queens) Those extra queens can be flown out at about the 10-11 minute mark for creep harass or if you need them at home you can fly them over to defend
It sounds incredibly pricey just to creep their third location though. 300/300 is a huge investment early on, and that you have to delay get ling speed /upgrades/ lair to compensate. and if you delay speed, the follow up hellion banshee reaper harass (maybe with or without some marines) would just kill your third right there easily
I found that I was able to get speed and ups and lair on time (at least without noticeable delay) also, creeping not only their 3rd but also their 4th 5th etc etc. you can creep wherever you want generally as long as you have mobility of your queens.
do you ppl really rely on queens to defend in the mid-late game? wtf lol. if you spend so many resources on ol drops you lose potential income since youre not investing in early eco. plus if protoss goes all in ur dead. and if terran goes 3cc ur behind.
so your argument for drops and speed is that the queens can come back and defend ?
in my opinion it's not worth a discussion. unless you are already going for dropplay one slow queen that is made from your second hatch will already do more than enough creep. bear in mind how micro intense the game already is for zerg . do you really want to add another huge apm /cost investment (450/300 over 150/0) for something that doesn't deal direct economic damage?
2 base play is unaffected by this "harass ". 2 base play is also the thing where you can't have that many resources tied up in queen drops
ithink about making 8 roaches instead. they could deny a third better and defend. and possibly even do damage. and they cost less gas. and they don't require load unload apm.
On January 30 2014 03:17 weikor wrote: so your argument for drops and speed is that the queens can come back and defend ?
in my opinion it's not worth a discussion. unless you are already going for dropplay one slow queen that is made from your second hatch will already do more than enough creep. bear in mind how micro intense the game already is for zerg . do you really want to add another huge apm /cost investment (450/300 over 150/0) for something that doesn't deal direct economic damage?
2 base play is unaffected by this "harass ". 2 base play is also the thing where you can't have that many resources tied up in queen drops
ithink about making 8 roaches instead. they could deny a third better and defend. and possibly even do damage. and they cost less gas. and they don't require load unload apm.
Some good points but you are able to build defenses against 2 base play before it's necessary to get speed drops (ie, if you must, you can opt to have one evo + roaches or build lots of speedling + few banes). In that case, it becomes "can I live" rather than "can I harass". for timing attacks that come near 10-12, it's still possible to defend, just don't send the queens out and build army. You will have the money to do so. It's a stylistic choice to do something like direct vs indirect damage as 8 roaches may do some little damage early on, but researching drop + speed will last the remainder of the game. To which you can use to harass or do other things. The micro aspect is a definite challenge, but it's not impossibly hard. you only need to drop 2-3 tumors before sending them home which means the time of actually performing that micro is not too much. The only other micro portion is spreading the creep which you can cycle through as you usually do with some 1-3 extra locations. It would be an APM investment, but not a humongous one. In the case that you defend the 2 base attack, they are put in a bad spot and you with the queen drop harass can make it an even worse spot by forcing them to invest in observers and wait for the creep to recede before they can plant the base. All this delay time gives you time and the map control advantage.
Also, this is a relatively unexplored technique (like mech) so please try it. (Preferably high level players that can execute it without loosing too much focus/macro/micro)
On January 29 2014 21:39 agahamsorr0w wrote: do you ppl really rely on queens to defend in the mid-late game? wtf lol. if you spend so many resources on ol drops you lose potential income since youre not investing in early eco. plus if protoss goes all in ur dead. and if terran goes 3cc ur behind.
Queens can be used early midgame (about 10-12) to transfuse spines and stuff in the case of all in or do deal with pesky harass. You will have money to defend any 10-12 minute 2 base timings assuming you keep up good macro. With this style, you won't be affected too much as long as you deal economic damage to the opponent. You will always be ahead because they won't be able to make their bases until the creep goes away and you can just expand and defend as you see fit. Meanwhile, you can be like terran and do roach/ling/bane drops and do various drop harass to keep your momentum after the initial queen drops.
Update, video will be up soon. Please try this tactic (unranked so you don't lose points if you aren't familiar with it) if you are masters + or you have good multitasking ability. (I'm sayin' like 180 APM and you're comfortably focused)
In the video I accidentally put an overlay on the supply >< (don't hurt me I'm sorry) But I do get supply blocked so I wasn't able to produce drones for 20-30 seconds. The timings should be a lot nicer if you make overlords at the right times.
Some adjustments to the build are: If you are going Roach Hydra, make one evo chamber and one roach warren instead of double evos. (unless I'm mistaken, the minerals are too tight to squeeze both of them in. If you are able to drone up, without making army, be aware that you can take a third or get double ups + roachwarren. Everything comes down to the scouting and managing your economy.
Please post a video response of you trying this strategy if you can
Here's some applications/reasons to do this before there are more "It's not worth it" posts: 1. It's fun lol <- biggest point 2. Every base that you creep up is a delay of a base for up to 80+ seconds, that's a long delay of a single base. More tumors means more trouble/longer recede due to radius. You can potentially delay a base for minutes. 3. by denying bases and getting map control, you are free to take bases when you see a chance (not getting attacked by an army) 4. In the end 300/300 investment would've paid for itself because of the added ability to drop the opponent as well. 5. the map control it provides allows you to see the attacks coming and since the area of creep is so massive, it's hard to clear away effectively unless you have an observer (another forced commitment). 6, It is a way for you to control the opponent instead of letting the opponent control you. (command zerg vs reaction zerg)
Not saying you guys can't criticize, but try to have some proof/backup to the criticism.
-Currently, timings aren't an issue from my testing, it's possible to get everything with minor slight delay -Queens are able to be mobile with ovie drops so no more worry about a lone queen getting caught in the middle of nowhere. (which is a waste of 100 minerals) -Ovie creep highways are a nice idea, but require too much attention/APM/and high risk, low reward. It's also not as mobile as Queens in overlords. -You are able to build a significant force while going for this early research. Also it's non committal because the research happens later in the game. So if you scout and be smart you will live.
You could emulate a similar effect by researching Burrow and burrowing a unit(s) at their bases and then use Generate Creep on the expansions as soon as you naturally decide to hit Lair tech. You would save a ton of resources, time and APM this way (the actions are even Shift-Queue-able). If you rely on forcing Scans later on, then Burrow might even do a better job than what is shown in the OP. Depending on how paranoid you can make the Terran, Burrow can be a huge nuisance. You can do a lot of fancy defensive burrowing at home or at the edge of surging creep lanes in the event of any harassment, and the best part is it's applicable to most standard play.
The enemy sees the creep, tries to kill off the Overlord (likely succeeds depending on what units are present), waits for the creep to recede, then orders a worker to build there. It then cancels because of the burrowed unit, and now they need to grab detection, kill the one Ling or whatever, and then re-order the build command and wait for their base to finish. During this, you're notified, they are delayed, you saved yourself from taking an earlier Lair and spending 300+ gas that could have gone elsewhere. Chances are you're getting Ling speed as well, so it's all pretty seamless and streamlined if you decide to block expos this way instead of drops/Queens/Overlords.
If creeping all over your opponent's side is your plan, then alternatively you can just walk a Queen and Drone out and proxy a Hatch, cancel it, and plant tumors on the canceled Hatch's creep. This costs a fair investment of minerals, but the Queen can drop multiple Tumors on arrival, and it doesn't force premature gas mining/Lair morphing whatsoever. This too hits before Lair, so that's good. It's basically this, minus the Spine Crawler cheese.
The method you outline is definitely fun to see-- no denying that, but in a competitive arena where resources are tight, you'll want to put forth the minimum required effort and minimum amount of resources for the most effect and it has to happen within the right time frame. You could shave as much as 4 full minutes off your current build video and still get rolled by some sort of all-in or timing minutes before you even touch their expos with creep. With timed attacks and all-ins that come your way, your build will be pushed back/de-railed, and more importantly, your window of opportunity will shrink. I believe Burrow/Generate Creep is the method that achieves the goal of annoying base blocking while providing vision with the smallest investment while hitting within the largest opportunity window. I'll try to back this up as simply as I can.
Lings are waaaaay quicker and cheaper than Queens. Say what you want about opportunity loss from the 3 Larvae, but if you don't scout you can and should lose. Queens don't aid in scouting, but Lings and Overlords do.
Burrow research and Lings are available at Hatch tech and Burrow costs 100/100/100
Add another 100 minerals for 2 pairs of Lings in addition to the 1 pair of initial scouting Lings. With that, you wind up with a grand total of 250/100/124-148. That's 2 Lings for blocking the 3rd and 4th bases, 2 for attack paths and 2 near their front. Also, not being generous at all with the time required.
Hits before Lair
Meanwhile,
Pneumatized Carapace costs 100/100/60
Lair costs 150/100/80
Ventral Sacs costs a whopping 200/200/130
Add your two Queens that are spreading the creep, 300/0/25-50, and you've got a minimum cost of 750/400/300 (being generous with the time costs as execution and build optimizations can lower/increase this).
Always must hit after Lair
A 500/300/176-152 difference. Just imagine what you could afford with those extra resources, all the while denying bases annoyingly. You're also free to push creep from your base and Burrow can make it a bit more safer for the Queens.
If you can tweak the build a whole lot more then go for it and show us how it's done! New discoveries in SC2 are few and far between these days, so it's always exciting to see something different! Keep experimenting and see what you can squeeze out of the idea.
in wol when it was common for terran to go for hellion banshee into mech I saw a fair amount of zergs do this to me in masters. Its prity good against builds which are really threatened by bad positioning. I saw one zerg do this to me and then when i tried to clear the creep he would take advantage of it and snipe tons of my mech units with roaches, admittedly he did this on a semi 2 base econ.
Anything which denies a meching terran three base is really helpful to zerg vs mech. plus vs mech usually zerg is in less need of gas since you will be focusing less on mutas and more on roaches. Also the drop tech is actually rather good agianst mech as at best you cand rop the terrans main and realy hurt thier production and at worst your force them to build lots of turrets, and vikings which reduces the size of thier core ground army as well as the helion count.
vs a bio terran I'm more skeptical about how relvent this would be, certainly annoying but probably not as threatening for a terran as either being dropped, which can actually be prity good, or worse yet being kept back by mutas, and a delay to mutas makes it easier for t to drop harass bye quite a bit.
as for protoss I dont play them much so I would not realy know what effect it would have against them.
On January 30 2014 16:20 eneyeseekay wrote: You could emulate a similar effect by researching Burrow and burrowing a unit(s) at their bases and then use Generate Creep on the expansions as soon as you naturally decide to hit Lair tech. You would save a ton of resources, time and APM this way (the actions are even Shift-Queue-able). If you rely on forcing Scans later on, then Burrow might even do a better job than what is shown in the OP. Depending on how paranoid you can make the Terran, Burrow can be a huge nuisance. You can do a lot of fancy defensive burrowing at home or at the edge of surging creep lanes in the event of any harassment, and the best part is it's applicable to most standard play.
The enemy sees the creep, tries to kill off the Overlord (likely succeeds depending on what units are present), waits for the creep to recede, then orders a worker to build there. It then cancels because of the burrowed unit, and now they need to grab detection, kill the one Ling or whatever, and then re-order the build command and wait for their base to finish. During this, you're notified, they are delayed, you saved yourself from taking an earlier Lair and spending 300+ gas that could have gone elsewhere. Chances are you're getting Ling speed as well, so it's all pretty seamless and streamlined if you decide to block expos this way instead of drops/Queens/Overlords.
If creeping all over your opponent's side is your plan, then alternatively you can just walk a Queen and Drone out and proxy a Hatch, cancel it, and plant tumors on the canceled Hatch's creep. This costs a fair investment of minerals, but the Queen can drop multiple Tumors on arrival, and it doesn't force premature gas mining/Lair morphing whatsoever. This too hits before Lair, so that's good. It's basically this, minus the Spine Crawler cheese.
The method you outline is definitely fun to see-- no denying that, but in a competitive arena where resources are tight, you'll want to put forth the minimum required effort and minimum amount of resources for the most effect and it has to happen within the right time frame. You could shave as much as 4 full minutes off your current build video and still get rolled by some sort of all-in or timing minutes before you even touch their expos with creep. With timed attacks and all-ins that come your way, your build will be pushed back/de-railed, and more importantly, your window of opportunity will shrink. I believe Burrow/Generate Creep is the method that achieves the goal of annoying base blocking while providing vision with the smallest investment while hitting within the largest opportunity window. I'll try to back this up as simply as I can.
Lings are waaaaay quicker and cheaper than Queens. Say what you want about opportunity loss from the 3 Larvae, but if you don't scout you can and should lose. Queens don't aid in scouting, but Lings and Overlords do.
Burrow research and Lings are available at Hatch tech and Burrow costs 100/100/100
Add another 100 minerals for 2 pairs of Lings in addition to the 1 pair of initial scouting Lings. With that, you wind up with a grand total of 250/100/124-148. That's 2 Lings for blocking the 3rd and 4th bases, 2 for attack paths and 2 near their front. Also, not being generous at all with the time required.
Hits before Lair
Meanwhile,
Pneumatized Carapace costs 100/100/60
Lair costs 150/100/80
Ventral Sacs costs a whopping 200/200/130
Add your two Queens that are spreading the creep, 300/0/25-50, and you've got a minimum cost of 750/400/300 (being generous with the time costs as execution and build optimizations can lower/increase this).
Always must hit after Lair
A 500/300/176-152 difference. Just imagine what you could afford with those extra resources, all the while denying bases annoyingly. You're also free to push creep from your base and Burrow can make it a bit more safer for the Queens.
If you can tweak the build a whole lot more then go for it and show us how it's done! New discoveries in SC2 are few and far between these days, so it's always exciting to see something different! Keep experimenting and see what you can squeeze out of the idea.
Interesting. Actually I might try to see if reseaching burrow / over speed -> dropship later might be a good way to approach this as burrow does have minimaml delay + the benefits you describe early on EDIT: I do think, if you want to do it this way, the lings/creep would have to be for delay purposes and while you harass, build up the upgrades. I want to try this and adjust the build so queen drops can be viable! stay tuned!
UPDATE: The total cost is factored in such a way that you didn't include queens in your other build. The queens built here are queens what would've been built anyways for defense. I don't think any zerg only relies on 1 queen per base. The timing is important but the time it takes to make something cannot simply be added like that. Things can be produced simultaneously. If you want to compare costs, compare costs relatively. If you are getting a lair later anyways or queens, don't factor those costs in because those will be eventual costs. The actual comparison would be something like 250/100 compared to 300/300 <- these are the actual comparisons because these are deviations from an otherwise normal build. so the actual difference is 50min/200gas which is a high Templar and a half which isn't really TOO much. However, I kind of like the burrow as a delay tactic. Will see how this goes
EPT
