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DjayEl
France252 Posts
I got a question about your ZvZ: I've ran into players that go into upgraded lings before mutas (thus delaying slightly their own mutas) in order to do a big ling attack to deny my 3rd/do damage while my mutas have not hatched yet, making it difficult to fight + 1 carap. lings with "normal" banes. Do you think this style is bad for any reason, and how do you secure an advantage vs it with your own build ? Also, what do you think of gasless openers in ZvZ in general ? | ||
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fvelloso
2 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 07 2013 09:19 TAMinator wrote: Do you have the build order for the very popular upgraded lings style against protoss? I can't seem to find that anywhere Unfortunately I couldn't really find it either and I never do it which is why this was included in this guide. By the time I saw a game of it (jaedong vs someone recently can't remember the toss) the guide was pretty much done and near release other then a few small things. On September 07 2013 09:30 DjayEl wrote: Thanks for the awesome work, Blade. I got a question about your ZvZ: I've ran into players that go into upgraded lings before mutas (thus delaying slightly their own mutas) in order to do a big ling attack to deny my 3rd/do damage while my mutas have not hatched yet, making it difficult to fight + 1 carap. lings with "normal" banes. Do you think this style is bad for any reason, and how do you secure an advantage vs it with your own build ? Also, what do you think of gasless openers in ZvZ in general ? The upgraded ling style you want to get more banelings then normal. Some thing to remember is that his lair is going to be super late and using more gas on banelings is ok as it's not like he'll have mutalisks anytime soon. I don't think the upgraded ling style is bad, but I don't particularly like it either. I think gasless is bad at least if scouted. I know many zergs would disagree with me, but whenever I face gasless I fist pump. It's like a huge "I can do whatever I want" moment when you see that. He can't put any pressure, so you can make a spine crawler later, baneling nest later, you can just drone super greedily and not worry about an attack. I also really love it because it allows me to get to mutalisks even easier because by the time he can do an attack my spire will be done or near complete. I personally love facing gasless and I don't think it's very good, but as I said that is just my opinion on it. If you play a more standard zvz like the roach style, I feel like you would be giving the other zerg player the chance to take a greedy 3rd if they realized they were facing gasless. On September 07 2013 09:37 fvelloso wrote: I imagine i'm one of the many Zerg players who were very curious what Blade would have to say about late game comps vs Protoss. I feel a bit disappointed. I'm sorry but ultra/hydra/swarm host/infestor/viper just doesn't seem like a really viable composition, since it presupposes mining from 8 - 10 gases with virtually no harassment. Lose one base to zealots or lose more than 10 workers and getting almost every late-game zerg unit simultaneously is not realistic. I know this is an ideal comp, but still am frustrated that you actually need to get all that and have perfect micro to have a chance. Uh you can actually get a good amount of ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper off of 4 base no problem and a zerg player shouldn't be losing a 4th base especially in the late game. I have had games where I won with this on 3 base because I traded so cost efficiently that I had a nice bank on 3 base and never securing a 4th. Also if this hits late game I get this composition everytime, it's very realistic I have no idea why you don't think it is. | ||
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TheTrueKerry
Canada34 Posts
Thanks Blade. | ||
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sM.Zik
Canada2547 Posts
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fvelloso
2 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 07 2013 11:01 fvelloso wrote: Thanks for response, Blade. Will watch replays and try to get it down. Would you say its an even mix of units in that comp or do you tend to rely more heavily on one unit while having the others as support? It's about 12-14 sh, 3-5 ultra (sometimes none if I don't think I need them) 5-8 infestors, and depending on how voidray heavy is the hydra count. If high voidray a few more hydras then normal, if little to 0 then I won't make many hydra and go mainly ultra/sh/ling/viper/infestor into bl if he's going no air at all. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
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SpeedyBozar
England56 Posts
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MaxField
United States2386 Posts
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
Question for debate: Currently, Ling/Bling/Muta IS by far the best answer to Terran 4M. What do you think about those that say that Ling/Bling/Muta focuses too much on using gas based units, which the Terran can force into cost effective trades for mineral heavy marines, all while needing to tech to Hive and Hive units which is also a gas heavy task? To me, as a Terran, it seems that the Terran 4M midgame goal vs Muta/Ling/Bling is to force trades for mineral for gas units while getting towards 3/3. When the Terran gets 3/3 you move in to kill off the 4th base. This should be at the same timing that the Zerg has just finished Hive but has not finished any Hive units or upgrades. Forcing the Zerg to make 14+ banes and a few mutas every 1-2 minutes is not hard. Once we have 3/3 lings/blings/mutas just dont cut it. Its hard to go Hive when you are using gas units that you must replace over and over to defend vs a Hive timing. In my mind, Zerg needs to find a gas dump that is more cost effective and combo that with the current style of ling counter attacks. I would think burrow banes (they trade very effective vs minerals as the terran either scans or loses marines and you only lose 2 at a time instead of 8+) into either muta or infestor into Hive would be better. Depending on the map and situation, either burrowed banes and muta or burrowed banes and infestor should be a minor gas investment that can buy the needed time to get to Hive. A mineral sink of some static D and zergling counter attacks will help as well. The idea is to use minerals to fight head on and to do econ harass while you use gas to buy time and tech up to hive. Again, theory craft from a Terran there but I must say that I love playing 4M vs the gas heavy lair styles. It seems like I am playing an easier game where I just have to fight alot without going to far on creep and hit a 3/3 timing to deny a 4th base. | ||
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grumpyone
48 Posts
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liberate71
Australia10252 Posts
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Thalandros
Netherlands1151 Posts
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delaydackel
6 Posts
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Zerg.Zilla
Hungary5029 Posts
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-Kaiser-
Canada932 Posts
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Rollora
2450 Posts
On September 06 2013 22:04 Ohyra wrote: I could've written a guide for Zerg players. It goes: Gas into bling nest. After this you make Banelings. You then auto-attack the blings into the opposing army and obliterate everything within sight, losing roughly 10 blings. Then you switch to ctrlgroup 2, autoattack into the main or an outlying expansion and you win. But heey.. you zergs already know this and your're doing it 250% of the time. IS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD User was temp banned for this post. :D ok lets start at the very beginning, as you seem annoyed by this build: have you ever heard of scouting ? if it comes to you: defending, something like splitting or hiding behind buildings etc being ahead  @OP: thx for these guides always, I always flike, when I know where to look up some builds and also I hope this overall increases skill in sc2 | ||
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EpidemicSC
United States70 Posts
I remember watching your stream like a year ago and being very impressed with both the quality of stream and the quality of play for someone with so little notice at the time. If I may make a suggestion, a very interesting ZvT style is Life's 4 gas 5 hatch mass ling bane style. I cant find the vod but he executed that build pretty nicely against Jjakji in some recent tournament and Day9 even did a daily on the build. (I have been using it myself to great success in ~high master). I find it is a nice change of pace from the constant defending style that is currently the standard and it allows you to get extremely aggressive pretty early. I think adding it to the OP, or the other zerg help me thread may help alot of people out. | ||
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Reasonable
Ukraine1432 Posts
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