Hello everyone, it's blade again and I'd like to welcome you to my second ZvX guide! We are here with a complete overview of Zerg in all the match-ups: ZvT, ZvP and ZvZ. My first Zerg guide came out when HotS was released, but now a lot of things has changed. Each match-up plays differently now and this guide will go over as many styles as possible. Though we'll feature a few all-ins, we'll mostly be focusing on macro play. I will go over standard ZvZ/ZvP/ZvT as well as what I personally do in ZvZ/ZvP/ZvT.
Zerg versus Terran
The ZvT section will go over standard macro play such as: roach/hydra, muta/ling/bane, roach/ling/baneling busts, and opening versus reaper opening compared to opening up versus CC first or 1 rax expand. We'll also cover some common Terran all-in such as proxy 2 rax or the 8/8/8 proxy reaper.
Early Game Openings
Fast Gas - vs Reaper Expand
9 – overlord
10 – drone scout (up to you on scouting or not)
15 – hatch
16 – pool
16 – gas
17 – overlord
Pool finishes – 2 sets of lings + 2 queens
100 gas – drones off
100 gas – metabolic boost
5:30 – 6:00 – take third
Taking third – add 2 queens (creep spread)
6:20 – 6:30 – put guys back on gas + 2nd gas
7:00 – double evo (preferably at wall so queen or lings stop hellion runbys)
7:15 – roach warren
250 gas - +1 melee and +1 carapace
8:00 – 8:30 – lair + baneling nest
Triple Hatch before Pool - vs CC First
9 – overlord
10 – drone scout (up to you on scouting or not)
15 – hatch
17 – hatch (third base)
17 - pool
17 – overlord
20 – overlord
Pool finishes – 3x queens
32 – overlord
32 – 2x queens (creep spread)
6:00 – double gas + sacrifice overlord + spine at third base
6:30 – 6:45 – double evo (preferably at wall)
7:00 – 7:15 – roach warren
250 gas - +1 melee and +1 carapace
7:50 – 8:30 – lair
100 gas – metabolic boost
50 gas – baneling nest
Hatch into Pool - vs 1 Rax expand, also viable against reaper expand
9 – overlord
10 – drone scout (up to you on scouting or not)
15 – hatch
16 - pool
17 – overlord
Pool finishes – 2x queens
25 – overlord
First 2 queens finish – 2x more queens (creep spread)
32 – overlord
5:30-5:45 – take third
6:00 – double gas + sacrifice overlord
6:30 – 6:45 – double evo (preferably at wall)
7:00 – 7:15 – roach warren
250 gas - +1 melee and +1 carapace
8:00 – 8:30 – lair
100 gas – metabolic boost
50 gas – baneling nest
Overview of Early Game Openings
The following is what a standard ZvT early game opening looks like assuming a normal opening from Terran. When Terran opens reaper, faster ling speed can be really nice so that the Zerg player can deny scouting and kill that reaper as soon as possible. This also makes it a little easier to take a third as the reaper can’t deny thanks to speedlings. In addition, it gives Zerg map control until the hellion/reaper combo pushes out from the Terran base. However, note that the gas isn't necessary and it's also viable for Zerg to open gasless with the hatch into pool build.
When playing again CC first, it's possible for the Zerg to open 3 hatch before pool. This isn’t a must and is all up to the Zerg player on how he wants to react to CC first. There is no aggressive Zerg opening that can counter CC first as a reaction, as the Terran will most likely wall their ramp, which holds early pools easily. The purpose of the spine crawler at six minutes is to keep hellions from sniping all the drones at the third; this makes it easier for the Zerg player to drone up the third and not have to make a ton of units to prevent drones from dying; it also frees up queens from hellion chasing duty.
When playing against a 1 rax expand, the fast four queen into third is really good, a build that allows the Zerg to take a fast third and spread creep at the same time. This all plays out similarly against a CC build except that you can't take a fast third against potential marine pressure.
The roach warren is a defensive tool (or offensive if you choose) in case of a sneak attack or some sort of hellbat attack. Roach/ling makes holding any sort of early hellbat timing much easier to defend. I feel a Zerg player should always have a roach warren, at least defensively, as sometimes Terran players will overreact when seeing the roach warren even if it isn’t used aggressively. Note that these build orders only apply when you're heading for a standard macro game; obviously, when doing any sort of all-in, the opening from the Zerg will be different.
Zergling/Baneling/Mutalisk
Lair finishes – Spire + baneling speed
9:00 – 10:00 – take 4th (only if Terran is doing standard 3CC)
1/1 finishes – start 2/2 (melee and carapace)
Spire finishes - +1 attack and mutalisk production
14:00 – 16:00 – infestation pit
Infestation pit finishes – go Hive
Muta/ling/bane is very standard in Zerg versus Terran and the build order below will start off as after the early game openings.
The build order to the left is just a rough time estimate of when to tech to hive. Obviously there are going to be situations where going hive between 14-16 minutes is not possible.
Getting 2/2 before mutalisks is important because upgrades are crucial in ZvT. If you delay 2/2 in favor of more mutalisks early, it will put you at a severe upgrade disadvantage, which will make engaging the Terran bio ball a lot harder due to the upgrade difference. Prioritize the 2/2 over more mutalisks.
The fourth base timing is actually a safe timing as long as Terran ha opened 3CC. If the Terran is not doing a 3CC build, do not take the fourth at this time as doing so will result in holding the early game aggression a lot harder and could result in a quick loss. The mutalisks are to be used both defensively and offensively. Once the mutalisk stack gets to about sixteen, the Zerg player will want to start being aggressive with them. Before that, the Zerg player should be using them defensively versus drops and sniping medivacs when the Terran player pushes. Killing medivacs is important as the lower the medivac count, the easier it is to kill the Terran army. Make sure to have an overseer with the mutalisks as this makes sniping widow mines easier; keep an overseer with the ling/bane group as well.
Maintaining counterattacks with ling/bane at the Terran's third is very strong and can result in a lot of lost economy for Terran. Setting up flanks and manually spreading ling/bane before engaging into widow mines is also highly recommended. Even though the widow mines will still probably do damage, but spreading manually as best as possible while engaging can go a long way.
The eventual goal of the muta/ling/bane player is to try and deny the fourth, which can be done a lot easier with twenty plus mutalisks then twelve mutalisks. Once the Zerg gets to that critical amount of mutalisks, going for the fourth or running into the Terrans main is highly recommended, whether to snipe tech structures, add-ons, or kill some SCVs. This can sometimes be game ending for Terran if their whole army is in the middle of the map and it might force the Terran player to all-in. Try not to sacrifice the mutalisks as they can be very useful in the last game, especially when Terran starts mass dropping. Keep getting mutalisk upgrades such as +2 attack, then +3 (after morphing greater spire). Eventually, the Zerg will want to add ultra/ling/bane/infestor and some broods if the game goes on even further.
Always have your mutalisks focus medivacs if your ground army can clean up the rest of the Terran army
Spreading out your army as much as possible to avoid widow mine shots makes killing the Terran army much easier.
early game opening is same as earlier in this guide
6:30 – 6:45 – double evo (preferably at wall)
7:00 – 7:15 – roach warren
250 gas - +1 ranged and +1 carapace
8:00 – 8:30 – lair
Lair finishes – hydra den
1/1 finishes – 2/2 (ranged/carapace)
When you're playing this style in ZvT, you're essentially playing on a timer: the longer the game goes on, the worse this unit composition gets. The goal of this composition is to kill or severely cripple the Terran with an attack in the mid-game. This army is strong for a little bit, but once Terran gets 3-3, the composition will lose any effectiveness.
That being said, adding in infestors or going hive to add in vipers does help this composition later in the game. The most common transition is to add in ultralisks, but some Zergs will opt for a broodlord transition. A weaknesses to this build is if Terran goes bio + tank (this is where teching to faster vipers helps a lot). Engaging a bio/tank army with roach/hydra will almost never be cost efficient: unless the Terran is caught unsieged, he doesn’t have a lot of tanks, or the Zerg has vipers to use blinding cloud or abduct.
Spawning pool finishes – 2 queens + 4 lings (watch towers and in front of Terran base)
100 gas – take 2 drones out + upgrade metabolic boost.
25 – overlord
5:30 – 6:00 – take third
6:00 – 2nd gas + roach warren + baneling nest put guys back on 1st gas
7:00 – start roach/ling production
8:00 – move out
8:30-8:45 – attacking the natural of Terran with banelings + roaches
When doing this build, put the roach warren and baneling nest in a different locations and try to hide it as best as you can. Separating them makes it so that if Terran scans, they won’t see both baneling nest and roach warren. If the Zerg can hide them well, a scan won’t reveal the buildings. Hiding the roaches for as long as possible is very important; the longer it takes Terran to see the roaches, the less time Terran has to react.
This build has to do significant damage to proceed into a macro game. If the Zerg kills most of the SCVs and army, the Zerg will be far ahead. Do note that you should not pure drone if the Terran holds off the attack; Terrans have mules and can keep producing units, so too many drones and you may die to the counterattack from Terran. (if the Zerg does enough damage, this will be the only strong attack from Terran and then it’s pretty much over if Zerg holds it with few to no losses.)
When executing this bust, make sure to have a ling or roach go in front of the group of units. If there are widow mines, the Zerg player doesn’t want to have one widow mine kill ten banelings or two-three widow mines hit their pack of roaches. This is very important as the less damage widow mines do, the stronger the attack will be.
If the Zerg does the necessary damage, the transition can be into muta/ling/bane, roach/hydra/infestor, just roach/hydra, or a second wave of speed roach/ling/bane bust; it's all up to preference.
Fighting mech can be quite hard as it is difficult to engage them on their own turf even with vipers if the Terran is making turrets and spreading out tanks. Normally, Zerg will want to try and contain the meching player to as few bases for as long as possible while taking expansions and starving the Terran of resources.
The best way Zergs have found to fight mech is to get swarm hosts out - about twelve to fifteen - and have them assaulting the Terran bases. Behind this, Zerg should have roach/hydra, and once hive finishes, Zerg should start adding in the vipers. Swarm hosts are very powerful against mech as they make the mech push a bit slower, delaying the push quite a bit with locusts. It also makes engaging the Terran mech ball a little bit easier since they can tank damage pretty well as well as dish it back.
Zerg should be able to keep a nice contain until vipers get out. If Terran begins to push, do not keep your swarm hosts in the same spot. Move them back a bit and let out a wave of locusts while waiting for viper energy so that you can blinding cloud or abduct the units. Do not rush any engagement; rather, delay it for as long as possible. If you find yourself having no choice but to engage, flank and try to time your attack with the locusts coming out. If Zerg can hit from three different angles with locusts at the same time, he should be able to beat back any Terran push with no problems.
Zergs will want spines and a spore at each base to deal with hellion/hellbat/widow mine drops. The spore is so you have detection, and the spines are to kill the drops.
The end game army that Zerg wants is ultralisks/hydra/ling/swarm host/viper. Make sure to have vipers behind hydras until you are going to cast blinding cloud. You will probably lose your vipers when doing this, which is ok, as this is going to happen no matter what. Terrans are beggining to make vikings to counter vipers, but as long as the Zerg player can get blinding clouds down on the Terran army and engage, Zerg can remake the vipers later.
Again, try flanking maneuvers. By keeping swarm hosts alive and with blinding cloud with hydra/ultra/swarmhost, the Zerg should be able to take on any Terran ground army head on. You may not kill it all, but Zerg should have a good enough economy to re-max fast. At worst - if Zerg engages properly - you should kill most of the army, and at best the whole army. Zerg can wait for reinforcements before pushing or keeping the contain as well. The Zerg can also use a broodlord/corruptor/infestor late game composition versus mech if the Zerg just can't break the Terran. Eventually, this switch will be easier then going pure ground.
A Zerg player's goal against mech is to starve the Terran, and make sure he can’t get enough expansions. Eventually Terran will starve and you will win with a much better economy. This can lead to some long games, but patience is very key against mech. During this time, Zerg should be taking the whole map so the Terran will have to attack or he will lose due to the economic difference.
Here is a video showcasing how to face mech (it's a little old, but I still play the same way most of the time versus mech on the super rare occasion I face it):
Various Situations
Defending Proxy 2 Rax
If the Zerg player can scout the proxy 2 rax, the Zerg player should pull a couple drones and kill the SCVs. If the Zerg does this, the Zerg will be very far ahead. This can only be done if scouted when doing an early drone scout (on 10 like the build orders above).
When facing a proxy 2 rax and you're not being able to prevent it in time, the best thing to do is do constant ling production and make 1-2 spines at the natural asap. Pulling drones (about half) is good and you should be trying to surround the marine if possible; if not, this at least pushes the marine back until lings arrive. Lings and spine crawlers are more important to get out at first, queens later. Delay the queens until you have the minerals to add them. Try not to engage the marines off creep unless the Zerg player has overwhelming number of lings. Otherwise the Zerg will trade very cost inefficiently versus the marines.
Once the Zerg holds this off, he should go back to pure droning and keeping an eye on the Terran natural. Have an overlord check the natural area for an expansion (If no expansion, try to sacrifice an overlord. If not possible, be very wary of a potential 4 rax follow up or marine + SCV pull). If the Terran takes his expansion, just play normally after holding off the rush.
Defending the 8/8/8 Proxy Reaper
This all in surfaced in the beta and for the most part disappeared in professional play. However but it’s still around on ladder and defending the 8/8/8 reaper is a very important skill to have. First, this is a build that has to do damage or the Terran player will be far behind. If the Zerg player can’t scout this beforehand, pull four drones to attack the reaper and pull back the weaker drones while waiting for the spawning pool to finish. Morph the weak drones into either a gas or a spore crawler (once spawning pool finishes) when they gets very low on health. Don’t forget to cancel these buildings and as soon as that spawning pool finishes, get lings and queens as soon as possible. If the Zerg player controls correctly, the Terran player shouldn’t kill more then one to two drones and will still be ahead as long as the Zerg doesn’t take much drone damage. After holding this off, sacrifice an overlord eventually to see the Terran transition and just go into a normal game from here.
Bio + Hellbat Pushes
This push isn't very common anymore with the hellbat nerf, but there are still some Terrans who do this.
Zerg should be able to see this coming if they are actively scouting with overlords, sacrificing zerglings, and just scouting in general. This bio/hellbat push is powerful if Zerg doesn't have the proper units. If the Zerg only has ling/bane, it can be hard to deal with this push; however, roach/ling/bane can crush this push as long as the Zerg has prepared in time.
If the Zerg sees this push, he needs to make to not over-drone while this push is coming. Zerg needs a decent amount of roaches, lings, and banelings to hold this push. Terran will push with stim and four-eight hellbats (it varies depending on the Terran player). If you have to lose the third base, it is fine to just sacrifice it, as this is a push where Zerg wants to make sure they can hold, and losing the third base won't be game ending.
Thought it is a strong two base push, if it fails and gets crushed, Zerg is far very far ahead. Once the Zerg holds this push, he can either drone and take a fourth base, or try to counter with a roach/ling/baneling attack. With this build, the Terran player normally won't have any tanks.
Dealing with Drop Play
Once the Zerg plans on moving out to be aggressive, you need some way to defend against drops, and the answer is static defense. The Zerg should be placing a few spines as well as at least one spore at each base so that drops don't devastate him. Also, keeping a small ling/bane group near each hatchery is a good idea to deflect drops as well so that the Zerg doesn't have to pull his army to deal with it. This is the best way to deal with drops once the Zerg is ready to be aggressive or if the Terran player is going to push while doing two to three drops at once. This way, the Zerg can defend the push and deflect drop play without taking to much damage, compared to having no static defense and not leaving any ling/baneling behind, which would result in a ton of damage. Even with mutalisks out on the field, static defense is a must as the mutalisks can't be everywhere and some drops will sneak by.
Overlord placement is very important as well. The Zerg should have overlord speed while teching to lair and once that finishes, make sure to spread out the overlords on the map. The sooner the Zerg sees a dropship coming, the longer he has to react to it. That way, the Zerg can place the defense they need and still move out or deal with a push rather then seeing the drop come out of nowhere, resulting in a mad scramble to deal with it.
Starting to spread out overlords too early is the reason Terran players make vikings early nowadays, so it is better to wait for speed to finish before sending too many out. Vikings will supply cap the Zerg hard if he is sending out all the overlords across the map, which is why waiting until speed's done is better. This way, the Zerg won't lose all his overlords and can spread them out again after dealing with the viking.
Playing against Bio/mine
The bio/widow mine combination is the strongest form of bio in terms of TvZ. It is superior to tanks because widow mines are super mobile and, once drilling claws is upgraded, can burrow in a single second. This makes the bio/widow mine a very strong and hard-to-engage composition. The best way to deal with it is to go muta/ling/bane and send in small packs of lings to set the mines off. Instead of sending only one ling, Zerg needs to be sending four to five to detonate some mines.
A good Terran will have his bio with his widow mines so that he can prevent one ling and sometimes even five lings from detonating a mine. A Terran who puts widow mines down and then walks away is very easy to deal with, when they keep their bio next to it, it's a lot harder to engage and requires very good unit control from the Zerg. Flanking the Terran army makes dealing with widow mines a lot easier as the widow mines won't hit all the Zergs units. If the Zerg can hit from two different angles, widow mine shots shouldn't be as devastating as they would have been if the Zerg had attacked from one direction. If the Zerg has roaches, sending in a roach with a couple of lings is a sure way to force a detonation off a mine or two.
Zerg versus Zerg
This section is going to go over ZvZ in its various forms. The strategies covered here include: upgraded ling style, roach/hydra, and muta/ling/bane/swarm host. This will have the build orders for each and how to best utilize the compositions. I will also be going over defending various all-ins such as the 14/14, 10 pool bane, or a ling/bane all-in.
Macro Builds
Zergling/Baneling/Mutalisk/Swarm Host Build
This is the general build order that Zerg wants to use when executing this style. Some things can be changed, e.g., Zerg can go gas before pool if they choose. This is just my personal preference:
9 – overlord
15 – hatch or pool (this is up to you)
17 – overlord
17 – gas
100 gas – metabolic boost
50 gas – baneling nest
5:00 – spine crawler
6:00 – lair
6:00 – double gas
6:20 – 4’th gas
Lair finishes – spire
Spire is down – Take a third
Ling production until spire is about to finish
Spire finishes – double evo and +1 air attack
+1 melee/+1 carapace and baneling speed
Infestation pit
Locust upgrade and swarm hosts
When the Zerg player starts swarm host production, they want to have eleven to twelve swarm hosts and twelve to fifteen mutalisks. Use the swarm hosts defensively and unless you really feel like you can be aggressive, don’t push with these. After 1/1 finishes, you should get +2 carapace but not +2 melee. This is when the Zerg player should tech to hive, right after he starts +2 carapace. You won’t get another melee upgrade until you are at hive and researching +3 carapace and ultra armor. Armor is more important for ultralisks then melee because ultralisks already dish out a ton of damage even without melee upgrades. You need that gas elsewhere as it’s very precious.
With the muta/ling/bane, you should be moving around the map, making sure to stay away from infestors while having ling/bane in flanking positions: this makes engaging a max 2/2 roach/hydra/infestor push super easy to hold off. This composition will beat a max 200/200 roach/hydra/infestor 2/2 timing attack if you flank well and not have everything bunched in a ball. This point is very important; if the you bunch everything in a ball and get caught in fungal, the results can be devastating.
The transition is ultralisks and eventually infestors. The reason that I use muta/ling/bane/swarm host instead of pure mutalisk into roach/swarm host is for the mobility. A common response from the opposing Zerg is that he will attempt to counterattack with some roaches or try to deny the fourth. This composition allows you to be a lot more mobile and deal with these very easily. Another reason that I use muta/ling/bane over roach is for the upgrades; the Zerg should be prepared to tech to ultralisks and roaches rely on the swarm hosts being with the army to kill a roach/hydra/infestor army.
The ends of a typical muta/swarm host versus roach/hydra battle.
Common Reactions to Swarm Hosts
When the other Zerg player notices that you ended up going swarm host instead of the standard roach/hydra after the mutalisks, that Zerg player will do one of three things.
That Zerg player will attempt a 200/200 roach/hydra/infestor 2/2 timing attack.
That Zerg player will go swarmhosts himself.
That Zerg player will make a spire and go mutalisks.
Now lets go over how to deal with these three common reactions. If your opponent attempts a max roach/hydra/infestor timing, the swarm host player should have ling/bane spread around and swarm hosts in a good defensive position. This way, the attacking Zerg player will be hit from all sides, ling/bane from a few, the locusts from another, and mutalisks from yet another. If executed properly the defending Zerg player should hold this every time. A fun fact, I have held this push with 150 army supply when my opponent was maxed with 2/2.
If the Zerg player attempts to go swarm hosts himself, you already have a huge advantage. The Zerg player who opened up with roaches now has to deal with both your swarm hosts and your mutalisks. Therefore his swarm host count won’t be as high and the mutalisk player can start mass expanding. Muta/ling/bane just gives the muta player so much mobility that your opponent can’t take additional expansions; your opponent can’t take another base, defend it from mutalisks, and defend from the muta player's swarm hosts all at the same time. As the mutalisk player, you should keep your swarm hosts in an aggressive position (this is only when your opponent goes swarm hosts as well) on the player without mutalisks and take expansions. Then, tech to hive, get ultra/ling/bane and add more mutalisks to the composition.
Eventually the muta/swarm host player will have such a better economy due to complete map control that the defending swarm host player will eventually die to ultra/ling/bane/muta/swarm host. If the muta/swarm host player wants, he can add in brood lords to deal with the ground swarm hosts, but it shouldn't have to come to that.
The last common reaction to the muta/swarm host players composition is for the other Zerg to tech to mutalisks himself. Their goal is to kill the swarm hosts and regain map control. This shouldn’t ever really work because the muta/swarm host player will have +1 attack and he can add more mutalisks to supplement his count. This strategy is more of a desperate gamble from an opponent and shouldn’t work, even if un-scouted.
ling production until spire is nearly finished (deny opponent's third while keeping yours alive)
+1 ranged - 8-10 mutas
throw down roach warren after mutas are produced
Roach speed ASAP<
+2 as soon as +1 is done; add tech of choice at the same time (infestors/hydralisks are most common)/ul>
Once mutas are out you need to do several things in the following order of importance:
Don't die (if he's rallying roaches at you, keep your mutalisks attacking his roaches and not his drone line until you're sure you can hold)
Deny his third
Do economic damage
Deny overlords (this sometimes falls under three, but basically if you're in his base and his mineral lines are unprotected, don't kill his overlords, kill his drones first
Don't let him have spotting lings anywhere on the map
Spawning pool finishes – 2 queens + constant lings + spine crawler + addition of queens
100 gas – metabolic boost (this can be switched with baneling nest if you choose)
50 gas – baneling nest
This section is going to overview defending the 14/14 all in with hatch first or pool first. It’s the same regardless of how you open and there are multiple ways to do it. This all-in is commonly used on four-player maps because of how hard it is to scout. The build order above is what this will look like once you see that the other Zerg is doing a 14/14 all-in.
On a four-player map you should always make a set of lings as soon as your pool finishes to scout your opponent. This can give the defending Zerg player a lot more time to prepare for the all-in.
When a Zerg finds out that his opponent is going for a 14/14 all-in, he needs to immediately place down a spine, then continue with constant ling production and keep adding queens; alternatively that Zerg can place a baneling nest first. The only downside to this is it’s a lot easier to make a mistake, such as losing the banelings to a ling or two and then it becomes a lot harder to hold. The easiest method is to keep queen production, a spine crawler and consistent lings. Make sure to spread the lings out as much as possible so that one baneling doesn’t kill them all. If the defending Zerg defeats that first push, it only becomes easier the longer the game goes on.
Holding 10 Pool Baneling with Hatch First
The best way to hold a 10 pool bane with hatch first is to go 15 hatch, then 15 or 16 pool and delaying gas until 17. Once you scout that there are lings on the way, cancel the gas. The next important step is to identify whether your opponent is going for a regular 10 pool just to kill your natural hatchery or for the baneling all-in version. If the other Zerg keeps sending lings and doesn’t take an expansion, then he’s going to be doing some sort of all-in, one that most likely includes banelings. If this is the case, do not cancel the other hatchery.
Once the lings get to the defending player's base, he needs to spread drones and make a queens and lings from both hatcheries, then a spine crawler. If the defending Zerg player went for 15 hatch 16 pool, he will have just enough minerals for this. If the defending Zerg player goes 15 hatch 16 gas 16 pool, then the best way would be to make queens, as many lings as they can afford and spread drones. Send three to four drones to the natural to buy time and get some mining going as well. If the defending Zerg player spreads correctly, once the two queens pop, and with some lings, the defending Zerg player should defend this and be ahead. The 10 pool bane player has to severely cripple the defending player's economy; killing just ten drones isn’t enough damage because the defending Zerg player will have two hatcheries and will be able to drone back up very fast. As long as the defending Zerg player doesn’t drop to two to three drones with no minerals, the defending player will be ahead.
Leenock executed this in the GSL without losing a single drone. Here is a replay showcasing this:
A common all-in in ZvZ is the two-base ling/bane all-in. This all-in can be done opening with either hatch first or 15 pool. Normally, when a Zerg player does this attack, it will leave that player's base as soon as his ling speed is about to finish.
To scout for this all-in, constantly check the other player's drone count. A Zerg player should always have an overlord near the opponents' natural where he can peak in to see the drone count. This can give a ton of information and you should always compare it to your own drone count. If there are few or no drones, there is an attack incoming; if it’s similar then that player is droning and not planning an attack.
Still, you will sometimes be caught by complete surprise by this all-in. However, on some maps it still can be countered by putting up three evolution chambers at the natural. Maps like Star Nation and Belshir Vestige are two maps where a Zerg can do evo block and even if caught by complete surprise, once those three evolution chambers are down, his timing will be delayed by a lot as he has to kill the evolution chambers, which takes quiet a bit of time.
On a map like Akilon that has a larger choke, it’s a bit harder to defend if caught by surprise. A Zerg player should always have at least one set of lings at his base that he can morph into banelings asap if the other Zerg player does a ling or ling/bane timing. Trying to connect to the other player's banelings with one to two lings is something to try, but have banelings spread out so that you can take out his. This is a very control oriented engagement; spread out banelings and don't let a group of lings die to one baneling. If the other Zerg player is continuously adding in reinforcements, throwing down another spine or two is something to do as well.
You can tell your opponent has given up the attack once by spotting a lack of units moving out from the your opponent's base. At this point, the defending player can choose to continue droning or perform a counterattack.
Banelings are almost a necessary tool when defending against these all-in. Position them correctly and never be caught off-guard without them.
Zerg versus Protoss
This section will go over the Zerg versus Protoss in all its forms. We'll go over swarm host play, roach/hydra fast viper, and muta/corruptor. Then we'll learn to react to and deal with certain all-ins and gateway expands. As a bonus, I've included an extra roach all-in that can be done against gateway expands.
Facing Gateway Expands
When facing gateway expand, there is always the possibility of a 4-gate timing designed to kill your third base. This attack can be held relatively easily as long as the Zerg player sees it coming. The easiest way to deal with this attack is to prevent the pylon from going up, which is possible as long as the Zerg player has speedlings looking around.
A good way to prevent it is to have six lings scouting around for common pylon locations and making sure to keep tabs on the Protoss army when it moves out. If you don't manage to deny the pylon, you'll be forced to make a ton of speedlings and overwhelm the push before he gets many warp-ins done.
Throwing down a roach warren is never a bad idea at around 6:15-6:30 if you think the Protoss is going to be very aggressive. Otherwise you can just wait start lair then get a roach warren and evolution chamber.
This will play out like a normal ZvP if the Protoss doesn’t do a 4-gate timing. That is the only other common builds that the Zerg player needs to worry about when facing a gate expand are stargate play or DTs. Thus, if the sacrificial overlord sees nothing I highly recommend one spore per base. A way to know if the Protoss is doing some weird early DT or stargate build is his expansion timing; if he’s doing a tech build with a tech building before expansion, his expansion will start a lot later then normal (the normal gate expand player takes his natural at 3:45-4 minutes).
Macro Builds
Swarmhost/Roach/Hydra Build
Note: Normally TL Strategy focuses on professional builds with VODs to back them up. This build, however, will be a slight exception as it is blade's own unique style. Nevertheless, there will still be plenty of replays in the replay pack to demonstrate how blade normally plays ZvP.
Versus Forge Expand
9 – overlord
15 – pool
16 – hatch
17 – overlord
Pool finishes – four lings and queens
21 – third base
6:00 – double gas and sacrifice overlord
7:00 – 7:20 – start lair + roach warren + evo
100 gas – metabolic boost
100 gas – Ranged attack
Lair finishes – Hydra + infestation pit + second evo
Make some hydras if stargate, no stargate make 12-14 swarmhosts
Range attacked finished – start +2 and +1 carapace from other evo
12:30 – hive
Hive finishes – vipers + ultra cavern (or spire)
Versus Gate Expand
9 – overlord
15 – hatch (can be pool if you want)
16 – gas
16 – pool
Pool finishes – 4 lings and 2 queens (lings must be scouting for potential gateway pressure)
100 gas – pull workers from gas and start metabolic boost
5:45 – 6:00 – Take third
6:30 – get 2nd gas and resume mining from 1st gas
7:00 – 7:20 – start lair + roach warren + evo (roach warren can be made sooner if you think a timing is coming)
100 gas – Ranged attack
Lair finishes – Hydra + infestation pit + 2nd evo
Make some hydras if stargate then 12-14, no stargate make 12-14 swarmhosts
Range attacked finished – start +2 and +1 carapace from other evo
12:30 – hive
Hive finishes – vipers + ultra cavern (or spire)
If your opponents opens with a forge expand, get two sets of lings so that the first set can take watch towers while the second set can look for hidden probes. The first two lings should also look behind your hatcheries so that if the Protoss player tries a cannon rush, it won’t catch you by surprise.
The hydra den and infestation pit are built at the same time so that Zergs can get hydralisks out for stargate units and then follow up with swarm hosts. Skipping hydras for swarm hosts versus stargate play is not recommended because you won't be able to move out if the Protoss has stargate units roaming around. The Zerg player should make ten or so hydralisks if there are phoenix or voidrays out on the field. The amount of hydras really depends on how heavy air the Protoss is going; If he's continuously making air, more hydralisks are needed. If it’s only some phoenix and nothing else, don’t go too hydra heavy, instead going for more roach heavy with swarm host support.
The 12:30 hive timing is a timing I found to be absolutely perfect for vipers. If the Protoss player tries to do a pre-viper timing, the Zerg player should NEVER die to it. I discovered that this is the sweet spot when going for swarm host play. Swarm host/roach/hydra will crush any pre-viper timing if the Zerg starts the hive at 12:30. If the Zerg starts it at 13:00 or later, he might potentially die to such a timing.
The ultra cavern is because ultralisks are really good in ZvP. With viper support, they are even better: just watch out for feedback. Ultralisks are also great as a remaxing option after losing the roach/hydra force (with some hydralisks if the Protoss is going voidray heavy).
Keeping swarm hosts alive is very important. Losing them because you're out of position is bad and will lose you the game if it happens early enough. Zerg players should always unburrow and retreat or be ready to retreat if they need to. There is no reason to let swarm hosts die.
A Zerg player can also do a muta or broodlord switch depending on the Protoss unit composition. For example, If the Zerg sees a heavy zealot/archon/immortal/colossi army, brood lords are a good answer to that. On the other hand, if a Zerg sees stalker/colossi/voidray, ultra/sh/hydra/viper is a better response. Addition of infestors never hurt either.
Maps this style is weak on: Whirlwind, Red City, Star Nation
Note that this style is different from Stephano's style of turtle swarm host. Alternatively, the Zerg player can go into a really boring and turtley style with mass static defense, swarm hosts, vipers, and corruptors. I personally have never done this and refuse to so there will be no replays showcasing this. For those who are still curious, here are a few demonstration replays:
Follow the gasless 3 hatch build until 8 minutes. By 8 minutes you need to identify the following:
his third timing
his tech choice (more stargates? More ground focus?)
If he takes fast third (~8 minutes)
Drone up!
defend against his expo tech (DTs/drops/phoenixes are commonly used to secure a third base for Protoss). Luckily almost everything can be defended with spores. AND is going for Airtoss (3+ stargates)
double expand by 9:30
double spire and 1 evo@ 9:30
Important scout timings:
~4 minutes - if the nexus isn't down by 4:30 your opponent is pressuring or bad ~6 minutes - scout opponent's tech opener and identify what adaption you want to use ~8 minutes - scout third to verify if fast third is taken or not ~9:30 - scout game focus of opponent (ground vs air styles, double upgrades? What is being chrono'd?)
Ranged attack finishes – second evo and start +2 range +1 carapace
10:30-11:00 – start hive (hyuns version is 9:30-10 minute start hive if you want to do it exactly like him)
Hive finishes – vipers + ultra cavern
Add evos to get energy for vipers + third evo for melee upgrades
Vipers finished with energy - attack
The opening for this build is the same for gate expand and forge expand as I put in the swarm host build. So if you want to see the early game, look at those for reference.
The roach/hydra/viper build is a build that was popularized by Hyun and is a very strong build. If the Protoss player does not have templar out, this attack can straight up kill him unless the Zerg makes a blunder. If the Protoss player does have templar out, it can be a bit hard to engage as the Zerg wants to avoid letting vipers get feedbacked. The ultra cavern is just a way to remax off of ultra/ling or hydra/ling once the Zerg player loses the roach/hydra force (hopefully keeping vipers alive still, not a must though).
Ultras in general are a strong unit in ZvP and again Zerg can go into brood lords instead of they choose. They can also stay roach/hydra/viper, but once the Protoss gets templar out, this composition gets worse and worse the longer the game goes and I highly recommend switching out of it.
The roach/hydra/viper composition also allows the Zerg player to do triple evo upgrades and the Zerg player should be doing this. On the contrary, it is a lot harder to do triple evo upgrades with muta or swarm host due to the gas intensity of them.
After scouting or seeing a gateway timing incoming (7 gate, phoenix + gateway timing, voidray + gateway timing), the main force for the Zerg is going to be roach/ling. If the Zerg sees stargate or voidrays, adding in some queens and holding with queen/roach/ling with a spore at each base is the go-to build.
The sooner the Zerg player can scout the attack coming, the easier it is to hold as roach/ling deals with gateway timings really well. Sacrificing an overlord at 6 minutes and seeing the gateways being warped in are ways to scout this all-in incoming.
This all-in has only become stronger then in was in WoL due to the mothership core and its time warp ability. The best way to hold this all-in is getting some static defense and roach/ling with flanking maneuvers.
Some ways to recognize that this all-in is coming is when scouting with an overseer, the Zerg player will see 6-7 gateways and immortals coming out of the robo. A Protoss player taking a third will not have 6-7 gateways and immortals, so this is almost a surefire sign that Protoss is doing this all-in.
The sooner the Zerg player can make Protoss use forcefields before getting to the Zerg's base, the easier it is to hold this. If there is time, adding in swarm hosts is a good option, but normally there isn’t enough time for this. If you see this coming or know it’s going to happen, going straight for hydra/ling can hold this as well. Try to engage the Protoss army in as wide an area as possible. Engaging this army in a choke only favors the Protoss player, so avoiding a choke is necessary to hold this.
Another thing I like to do versus this all-in is get an infestation pit and if the Protoss takes to long, I will be adding in swarm hosts as time goes on while holding with roach/ling. If the Protoss is being held back and then the Zerg gets swarm hosts out, this will become much easier to deal with. Do note that you can only start swarm host production when he is pulling back to wait for a warp-in and you think that sneaking in some swarm hosts won't hurt holding the all-in.
This timing is a lot easier to deal with than an immortal all-in. What the Zerg player should do when they see this attack incoming is get swarm hosts and just go roach/swarm host. Roach/swarm host absolutely destroys this all-in and the Zerg will have more then enough time to add in swarm hosts if they scout the Protoss player doing this build. Have the swarm hosts burrow as soon as you can in the direction of the Protoss army and try not to get forcefielded in a bad position.
Some key parts to look for when using an overseer, fast robotics facility, lots of gateways (when a Protoss does a standard third, it’s normally 3-4 gateways, with an all in this goes to 6-7).
Bonus All-in
2 Base Speed Roach All-in (Only do this versus gate expand)
9 – overlord
15 – hatch
16 – gas
16 – pool
17 – overlord
100 gas – metabolic boost (take 2 guys off of gas)
6:00 – lair + 2 gases + roach warren
Lair finishes – roach speed
Roach speed finishes - attack
This is an old all-in that was used in Wings of Liberty, one that can be very hard to deal with for Protoss when they gate expand. A gate expand player won’t think of anything suspicious not seeing a fast third (and shouldn’t even scout the third until he uses hallucinated phoenix). So this all in won’t be a thing that comes to mind when a gate expand doesn’t see the fast third. Most Protoss players also open stargate or DT tech, which makes this timing even stronger. If the Protoss opens robo, this all-in shouldn’t work unless the Protoss isn’t making immortals or delays the immortals for a while. Try to keep the roaches hidden until speed is about done and then start engaging at the natural.
Do not attempt this build on maps where it's easy to take a third base, such as Akilon Wastes. This map features few ramps and chokes so it's hard to engage up a ramp thanks to forcefield. Thus, the Protoss wall will usually easily hold unless he's being extremely greedy. It's also difficult to engage the third because of the collapsible rocks and again you won't ever get in because one force field pretty much blocks that choke off.
Late Game Engagements
Late game ZvP is a very reactionary stage and the player who engages the best will win the engagement when it happens (unless Zerg is still at roach/hydra). This is the stage where the Zerg player can be doing tech switches from ultra to brood lords or surprise mutalisks.
Some Key Late Game Unit Compositions Versus Protoss
When Protoss is going voidray/colossi/templar, ultra/hydra/swarm host/infestor/viper will be a strong composition (you can exclude infestors or vipers if you choose, but having both can be really nice). The ultra/swarm hosts are to deal with the splash while hydra/infestor deal with the voidrays. Vipers are used to abduct voidrays or colossi.
Fungal can make killing a heavy voidray composition much easier to kill. Just ask Naniwa.
Sometimes in a late game scenario, the Protoss will attack with this heavy colossi/voidray/templar army. If you kill most of it and the Protoss still has a ton of void rays left over, Zerg can attempt a huge mutalisk switch, which will normally spell out gg for Protoss. Beware that you should only attempt this if you have a big bank. Mutalisk switches are also good versus Protoss who aren’t making archons or templar or if he loses those units in a trade.
If Protoss is going more ground heavy, say colossi/templar/archon/immortal/zealot, you can transition into ultra/brood lord/viper/ling. The viper's blinding cloud is very strong, especially if Protoss tries to blink in to snipe brood lords; then ultra/ling/brood lord will clean up the rest. Beware though that Protoss may try to base trade if you go heavy brood lords. Ultra/ling/bane/viper/infestor can also be pretty good versus this composition and fungal with blinding cloud can really clean up the Protoss army.
Make sure when attacking a Protoss army with ultralisks that the ultralisks lead the way so they can tank and dish out damage.
Finally, nydus play can be very good on maps like Whirlwind. You can put in sh/ultra in them, kill a base and then retreat back quickly into the nydus. This can be a good way to deal with Protoss taking expansions and keeping them on a lower base count throughout the game. It's yet another good tactic to incorporate in the late game.
Finale
That's all, folks. Thanks for reading. If you have any questions feel free to ask as I do read the responses and answer all questions!
I could've written a guide for Zerg players. It goes: Gas into bling nest. After this you make Banelings. You then auto-attack the blings into the opposing army and obliterate everything within sight, losing roughly 10 blings. Then you switch to ctrlgroup 2, autoattack into the main or an outlying expansion and you win. But heey.. you zergs already know this and your're doing it 250% of the time. IS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD
Excellent guide Blade! I can't wait to dig into everything tonight. I've had some time off from SC2 recently because work has been so busy but this will be a good course for me to follow to get back into the mix :D
Also, Ohyra seems to lack the basic understanding of how this game is played (since 10 blings against anyone with decent control will never wipe an entire army) and math (since you can't do something 250% of the time). Perhaps he should find his race's help thread?
This will serve as a great reference and with the ton of information it contains I'm sure most Diamond and lower players will soon become Masters. Good work Blade, as always.
On September 06 2013 22:04 Ohyra wrote: I could've written a guide for Zerg players. It goes: Gas into bling nest. After this you make Banelings. You then auto-attack the blings into the opposing army and obliterate everything within sight, losing roughly 10 blings. Then you switch to ctrlgroup 2, autoattack into the main or an outlying expansion and you win. But heey.. you zergs already know this and your're doing it 250% of the time. IS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD
A lot more thought goes into writing a guide for any race. Check this one out.
Against terran Mech what do you think about muta into swarmhost and keeping your muta ball alive with some hyrda/roach support. As a terran I have a very hard time dealing with this after initial opening, I have to make thors which means I am not making tanks so when I try to punish the zerg 4th my tank count is too low to deal with the locusts spawns so I just take my own 4th.
The SH and mutas just dance around and I cant seperate the army because I need to protect my tanks with thors and vice versa.
I want all evidence of this thread removed, zerg is annoying enough as it is, don't want them making more units or I will never be able to move out as toss, I won't win every ZvZ and I will have to go even more tryhard mode in TvZ.
i'm not a zerg player but HOLY CRAP at the OP i'm actually jealous that i'm just a terran player reading this very very very awesome guide. Keep up the good work blade <3
I quit Z for T at the beginning of the infestor/broodlord-era and then went to P at the beginning of hots-beta and now I thought I'd complete the circle so this is perfect for me.
One small thing: after today's matches by DRG this overview needs at least a small mention of burrow and its application as both scouting and counterattack tool (not to mention freaking terrans out and making them waste scans).
A way to know if the Protoss is doing some weird early DT or stargate build is his expansion timing; if he’s doing a tech build with a tech building before expansion, his expansion will start a lot later then normal (the normal gate expand player takes his natural at 3:45-4 minutes).
Advice like this is probably why Zerg players freak out when they play against me...
Sick guide, though! It's good to see that the non-Protoss guide writers are finally stepping it up.
I would personally have said the gas expenditure of the Protoss is more important - the number of sentries would be a lot lower than usual if the Protoss is going for DTs.
Awsome, thanks Blade! I like reading guides, sometimes there is stuff I didn't know yet ^^ And thank you for the replays, always a pleasure seeing them, and your stream!
Great guide, nice work. And I'm glad you don't advocate Stephano style Swarm Host + mass static defense turtling. Effective it may be, but that style is unfun to play, unfun to play against, and unfun to watch, so I hope it just dies out.
Hey Blade, really nice guide! I really enjoy these and they really allow me to change my game up. Makes sc2 more interesting trying new builds!
One question. In the protoss sh builds, you did not get locus life. Is that generally not a good idea? I assume getting roach heavy with some hydras and teching to viprs seems like a good idea. I was having trouble killing late game toss armies and ended up trying to trade and remaxing on mutas. Maybe ill try this.
Also I have been using lings in zvp and then getting sh to corrupts to take down the collo. I will try this now. Thanka again for the guide!
On September 07 2013 06:23 TheFish7 wrote: Awessoommee guide!!! Makes me want to go hit the ladder. Pretty much all the standard stuff gets touched on, very comprehensive.
What are your thoughts on ling/bling/hydra in midgame ZvT? I've seen a few koreans use that style on maps that are good for it, like bel'shir vestige.
I Tried ling/bane/hydra back in beta and I just had awful success with it. I don't think it's that great personally.
On September 07 2013 06:30 Kit-Bar wrote: Hey Blade, really nice guide! I really enjoy these and they really allow me to change my game up. Makes sc2 more interesting trying new builds!
One question. In the protoss sh builds, you did not get locus life. Is that generally not a good idea? I assume getting roach heavy with some hydras and teching to viprs seems like a good idea. I was having trouble killing late game toss armies and ended up trying to trade and remaxing on mutas. Maybe ill try this.
Also I have been using lings in zvp and then getting sh to corrupts to take down the collo. I will try this now. Thanka again for the guide!
I do get the extended locus life as soon as I decide i want to make sh I get the upgrade.
I can't help but notice that you didn't cover Snute's roach/bane/ling macro build. Is it because it's clearly inferior to muta/ling/bling in some way? If so, why hasn't it been edited out of the Zerg help me thread's OP?
Gosh I love these guides so much! I can't thank you guys enough for giving us these very well written and detailed guides. Great job as always, thanks!!
As a terran/ toss player i dont much like that you are telling zerg players how to play, but if it keeps them from allin-ing, then awsome. Looks really nice, with a crap ton of info. Makes me jealous
On September 07 2013 08:22 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: I can't help but notice that you didn't cover Snute's roach/bane/ling macro build. Is it because it's clearly inferior to muta/ling/bling in some way? If so, why hasn't it been edited out of the Zerg help me thread's OP?
In my opinion it's clearly not as good as muta/ling/bane, but the reason I didn't write about it was partly forgetting about it and partly just not the biggest fan of it.
On September 07 2013 08:22 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: I can't help but notice that you didn't cover Snute's roach/bane/ling macro build. Is it because it's clearly inferior to muta/ling/bling in some way? If so, why hasn't it been edited out of the Zerg help me thread's OP?
In my opinion it's clearly not as good as muta/ling/bane, but the reason I didn't write about it was partly forgetting about it and partly just not the biggest fan of it.
It's because the opponent has a lot more medivac retention and you can't snipe mines, right? Or is there something else?
One more question. You did not really talk about if the opponent in zvz goes mass mutas. Do you suggest you cut SH production? I was not sure if going mutas or hydras was the best option. I assume if you see mutas you just try to out muta him with the +1?
On September 07 2013 08:22 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: I can't help but notice that you didn't cover Snute's roach/bane/ling macro build. Is it because it's clearly inferior to muta/ling/bling in some way? If so, why hasn't it been edited out of the Zerg help me thread's OP?
In my opinion it's clearly not as good as muta/ling/bane, but the reason I didn't write about it was partly forgetting about it and partly just not the biggest fan of it.
It's because the opponent has a lot more medivac retention and you can't snipe mines, right? Or is there something else?
It's not just the medivac retention, it's also drop play is really hard to deal with even with static defense. Can be really hard to get past a 3rd, sometimes a 4th base due to drops. Also it's not great in a straight up fight after a certain point in the mid game.
On September 07 2013 08:50 Kit-Bar wrote: One more question. You did not really talk about if the opponent in zvz goes mass mutas. Do you suggest you cut SH production? I was not sure if going mutas or hydras was the best option. I assume if you see mutas you just try to out muta him with the +1?
You mean if he does a muta switch right? If so yes make some spores at bases and just make mutas yourself while getting the other upgrade as well so you remain ahead in upgrades.
Blade's guide is finally here!!! Thanks a lot Blade for your hard work, now I can step back into SC2 after taking a long break with a guide to follow. But Blade although I appreciate you effort, there are a few typos in the guide. I notice a few even when I skim through it. I think a quick fix will make your guide even better!
Here's a typo I saw (and remember where I saw it):
In the ZvP section under Swarmhost/Roach/Hydra Build, the last line should be "how blade normally plays ZvP" not "how blade normally plays ZvT"
I got a question about your ZvZ: I've ran into players that go into upgraded lings before mutas (thus delaying slightly their own mutas) in order to do a big ling attack to deny my 3rd/do damage while my mutas have not hatched yet, making it difficult to fight + 1 carap. lings with "normal" banes.
Do you think this style is bad for any reason, and how do you secure an advantage vs it with your own build ?
Also, what do you think of gasless openers in ZvZ in general ?
I imagine i'm one of the many Zerg players who were very curious what Blade would have to say about late game comps vs Protoss. I feel a bit disappointed. I'm sorry but ultra/hydra/swarm host/infestor/viper just doesn't seem like a really viable composition, since it presupposes mining from 8 - 10 gases with virtually no harassment. Lose one base to zealots or lose more than 10 workers and getting almost every late-game zerg unit simultaneously is not realistic. I know this is an ideal comp, but still am frustrated that you actually need to get all that and have perfect micro to have a chance.
On September 07 2013 09:19 TAMinator wrote: Do you have the build order for the very popular upgraded lings style against protoss? I can't seem to find that anywhere
Unfortunately I couldn't really find it either and I never do it which is why this was included in this guide. By the time I saw a game of it (jaedong vs someone recently can't remember the toss) the guide was pretty much done and near release other then a few small things.
On September 07 2013 09:30 DjayEl wrote: Thanks for the awesome work, Blade.
I got a question about your ZvZ: I've ran into players that go into upgraded lings before mutas (thus delaying slightly their own mutas) in order to do a big ling attack to deny my 3rd/do damage while my mutas have not hatched yet, making it difficult to fight + 1 carap. lings with "normal" banes.
Do you think this style is bad for any reason, and how do you secure an advantage vs it with your own build ?
Also, what do you think of gasless openers in ZvZ in general ?
The upgraded ling style you want to get more banelings then normal. Some thing to remember is that his lair is going to be super late and using more gas on banelings is ok as it's not like he'll have mutalisks anytime soon. I don't think the upgraded ling style is bad, but I don't particularly like it either.
I think gasless is bad at least if scouted. I know many zergs would disagree with me, but whenever I face gasless I fist pump. It's like a huge "I can do whatever I want" moment when you see that. He can't put any pressure, so you can make a spine crawler later, baneling nest later, you can just drone super greedily and not worry about an attack.
I also really love it because it allows me to get to mutalisks even easier because by the time he can do an attack my spire will be done or near complete. I personally love facing gasless and I don't think it's very good, but as I said that is just my opinion on it. If you play a more standard zvz like the roach style, I feel like you would be giving the other zerg player the chance to take a greedy 3rd if they realized they were facing gasless.
On September 07 2013 09:37 fvelloso wrote: I imagine i'm one of the many Zerg players who were very curious what Blade would have to say about late game comps vs Protoss. I feel a bit disappointed. I'm sorry but ultra/hydra/swarm host/infestor/viper just doesn't seem like a really viable composition, since it presupposes mining from 8 - 10 gases with virtually no harassment. Lose one base to zealots or lose more than 10 workers and getting almost every late-game zerg unit simultaneously is not realistic. I know this is an ideal comp, but still am frustrated that you actually need to get all that and have perfect micro to have a chance.
Uh you can actually get a good amount of ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper off of 4 base no problem and a zerg player shouldn't be losing a 4th base especially in the late game. I have had games where I won with this on 3 base because I traded so cost efficiently that I had a nice bank on 3 base and never securing a 4th. Also if this hits late game I get this composition everytime, it's very realistic I have no idea why you don't think it is.
Thanks for response, Blade. Will watch replays and try to get it down. Would you say its an even mix of units in that comp or do you tend to rely more heavily on one unit while having the others as support?
On September 07 2013 11:01 fvelloso wrote: Thanks for response, Blade. Will watch replays and try to get it down. Would you say its an even mix of units in that comp or do you tend to rely more heavily on one unit while having the others as support?
It's about 12-14 sh, 3-5 ultra (sometimes none if I don't think I need them) 5-8 infestors, and depending on how voidray heavy is the hydra count. If high voidray a few more hydras then normal, if little to 0 then I won't make many hydra and go mainly ultra/sh/ling/viper/infestor into bl if he's going no air at all.
Currently, Ling/Bling/Muta IS by far the best answer to Terran 4M. What do you think about those that say that Ling/Bling/Muta focuses too much on using gas based units, which the Terran can force into cost effective trades for mineral heavy marines, all while needing to tech to Hive and Hive units which is also a gas heavy task?
To me, as a Terran, it seems that the Terran 4M midgame goal vs Muta/Ling/Bling is to force trades for mineral for gas units while getting towards 3/3. When the Terran gets 3/3 you move in to kill off the 4th base. This should be at the same timing that the Zerg has just finished Hive but has not finished any Hive units or upgrades. Forcing the Zerg to make 14+ banes and a few mutas every 1-2 minutes is not hard. Once we have 3/3 lings/blings/mutas just dont cut it. Its hard to go Hive when you are using gas units that you must replace over and over to defend vs a Hive timing.
In my mind, Zerg needs to find a gas dump that is more cost effective and combo that with the current style of ling counter attacks. I would think burrow banes (they trade very effective vs minerals as the terran either scans or loses marines and you only lose 2 at a time instead of 8+) into either muta or infestor into Hive would be better. Depending on the map and situation, either burrowed banes and muta or burrowed banes and infestor should be a minor gas investment that can buy the needed time to get to Hive. A mineral sink of some static D and zergling counter attacks will help as well. The idea is to use minerals to fight head on and to do econ harass while you use gas to buy time and tech up to hive.
Again, theory craft from a Terran there but I must say that I love playing 4M vs the gas heavy lair styles. It seems like I am playing an easier game where I just have to fight alot without going to far on creep and hit a 3/3 timing to deny a 4th base.
On September 06 2013 22:04 Ohyra wrote: I could've written a guide for Zerg players. It goes: Gas into bling nest. After this you make Banelings. You then auto-attack the blings into the opposing army and obliterate everything within sight, losing roughly 10 blings. Then you switch to ctrlgroup 2, autoattack into the main or an outlying expansion and you win. But heey.. you zergs already know this and your're doing it 250% of the time. IS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD
User was temp banned for this post.
:D ok lets start at the very beginning, as you seem annoyed by this build: have you ever heard of scouting ? if it comes to you: defending, something like splitting or hiding behind buildings etc being ahead
@OP: thx for these guides always, I always flike, when I know where to look up some builds and also I hope this overall increases skill in sc2
I remember watching your stream like a year ago and being very impressed with both the quality of stream and the quality of play for someone with so little notice at the time.
If I may make a suggestion, a very interesting ZvT style is Life's 4 gas 5 hatch mass ling bane style. I cant find the vod but he executed that build pretty nicely against Jjakji in some recent tournament and Day9 even did a daily on the build. (I have been using it myself to great success in ~high master). I find it is a nice change of pace from the constant defending style that is currently the standard and it allows you to get extremely aggressive pretty early. I think adding it to the OP, or the other zerg help me thread may help alot of people out.
On September 07 2013 18:44 -Kaiser- wrote: The replay pack only has like 3 pro games in it...
Ooops, that'd my bad. I uploaded the wrong replay pack. Should be fixed now.
Or not it's monks fault
On September 07 2013 23:53 Lisitsa wrote: Somebody do this for Protoss please.
REALLY good guide.
Thanks, I don't think an all pvz guide going over all 3 match ups will be made for a long time (if ever). It really is a ton of work and if it were to start even today it wouldn't release for 2 months at least. But I am pretty sure a PvT guide will come out eventually
Thanks very much for the guide! I've been working from your previous one for a while already. My question is in regards to being in gold league. Would you say it is effective for me to practice these builds and strategies while still working on my mechanics? Or should I postpone learning at this level and just work on macro/injects/mineral spending and use more simple builds until I get to diamond?
I suppose this question could be answered by anyone in diamond or masters.
On September 08 2013 01:46 RifterSC2 wrote: Thanks very much for the guide! I've been working from your previous one for a while already. My question is in regards to being in gold league. Would you say it is effective for me to practice these builds and strategies while still working on my mechanics? Or should I postpone learning at this level and just work on macro/injects/mineral spending and use more simple builds until I get to diamond?
I suppose this question could be answered by anyone in diamond or masters.
Thanks!
Using any of these builds are fine, but your priority should be to work on mineral/macro/etc. Just do 1 build until you can keep that money low and stuff before doing many builds is what I would recommend.
Haha sorry im pumping questions. Im in masters and I sometimes have trouble holding the toss death balls. Do you suggest vipers for blinding cloud or abduct? I am not sure what is better and I wouldnt mind advice to which is a better choice. Usually I base race and win, but I cant kill his comp straight up
You want to utilize both abduct and blinding cloud. Trying to abduct colossi is more important if possible, if not throw down blinding clouds. It really depends on his HT positioning and stuff on whether to abduct or blinding cloud, but I would definitely throw down both if possible.
How come there is no mention of 7/9/10pool or any direct rush pressure/aggressive builds? I've found that 9 and 10 pool speed builds work very well vs 1 rax or cc first builds on any just about every map. They don't win outright usually, but they chink the armor of the terran and fuck up all their plans. They usually end up making a bunch of hellions or widow mines to secure their expand. If you keep tabs on what they are doing you can make drones or lings and keep the pressure on their door. The moment they decide to move out you just surround everything with lings.
Also, 7pool works pretty well versus zerg and protoss on most maps. Its not really a cheese build. It's more of a responsive rush/econ build. Same concept as the above, only you are usually directly stopping the expand and they revert to 1 base play. From here, you expand and prepare to defend the 4 gate or ling/bane all in. If they continue to try and expand you get ahead economically.
7/9/10 pool there isn't much to talk about, also it is cheese. You are relying on your opponent being really greedy or not responding correctly once they get early pooled.
Most terrans I play that 14CC for example do it on the high ground, going 7/9/10 pool and you will just be super behind economically all game (you won't bust the wall). It can mess up players sure, but you are relying on them not responding correctly, it's probably fine at lower levels of play, but I don't want to teach bad habits anyway which is another reason I didn't put this in the guide.
Also yes it is cheese, I know you say it isn't because it's not a responsive rush/econ build, there is nothing responsive about 7 pool that is blind and hoping your opponent is playing really greedy. A responsive build would be this: "I drone scout CC first in response I go 3 hatch before pool."
7 pooling blindly isn't being responsive.
As for zvp/zvz, early pooling again there isn't much for me to discuss about you make a pool at 7, you kill expo and try to kill opponent. If opponent 15 pools you are super far behind, protoss will make cannon in main or have a zealot if doing gate expand and from there play into a normal game.
Not really much to write about in that department.
You said you were looking for a mass upgraded long build. There's one on imbabuilds.com that I think is leenock's. When is your standard timings for 3rd - 6th gasses against a 3 cc Terran (assuming you opened gasless 4 queen fast third)?
Thanks so much Blade! This helps me with so much basic stuff. It's hard to know if I am correct about an assumption until I see a post like this that confirms some of my thoughts. I would love it if you put up a build or build idea on how to go roach hydra ling into muta switch ZvP vs a 1 gate SG.
The last common reaction to the muta/swarm host players composition is for the other Zerg to tech to mutalisks himself. Their goal is to kill the swarm hosts and regain map control. This shouldn’t ever really work because the muta/swarm host player will have +1 attack and he can add more mutalisks to supplement his count. This strategy is more of a desperate gamble from an opponent and shouldn’t work, even if un-scouted.
I didn't understand this, because if the other player skips swarm hosts and continuously makes mutalisks, they can also have +1 attack as well as more mutalisks.
I imagine i'm one of the many Zerg players who were very curious what Blade would have to say about late game comps vs Protoss. I feel a bit disappointed. I'm sorry but ultra/hydra/swarm host/infestor/viper just doesn't seem like a really viable composition, since it presupposes mining from 8 - 10 gases with virtually no harassment. Lose one base to zealots or lose more than 10 workers and getting almost every late-game zerg unit simultaneously is not realistic. I know this is an ideal comp, but still am frustrated that you actually need to get all that and have perfect micro to have a chance.
2 things. 1st, it's obvious you haven't played with this unit composition often, if at all. 2nd, It's painfully obvious you haven't watched many of Blades games. He's got literally hundreds of games (lots of replay packs), all on the Korean server vs nothing but High Masters and GMs. Now I can't speak for Blades exact Z vs P win percentage but from all the games I've watched it has to be something at least 75% + (probably much higher). He laughably crushes most opponents with this exact unit composition.
Anyways, Z vs P is by far Blades best MU.......so that unit composition that your bashing works REMARKABLY well.
The last common reaction to the muta/swarm host players composition is for the other Zerg to tech to mutalisks himself. Their goal is to kill the swarm hosts and regain map control. This shouldn’t ever really work because the muta/swarm host player will have +1 attack and he can add more mutalisks to supplement his count. This strategy is more of a desperate gamble from an opponent and shouldn’t work, even if un-scouted.
I didn't understand this, because if the other player skips swarm hosts and continuously makes mutalisks, they can also have +1 attack as well as more mutalisks.
It's when the zerg is transitioning from roach/hydra/infestor into muta. So no his attack will still be later.
I have a question, the first ZvT build is 16 pool 16 gas against reaper expand. Why not 15-15? I saw life doing it plenty of time and it works better for when the reaper comes into your main your lings are more near to completing then with the 16-16. Ofc it depends on the map. Also your queens are out a bit earlier.
It is maybe something small but it could save you a drone or 2
On September 08 2013 20:57 AmuseD wrote: I have a question, the first ZvT build is 16 pool 16 gas against reaper expand. Why not 15-15? I saw life doing it plenty of time and it works better for when the reaper comes into your main your lings are more near to completing then with the 16-16. Ofc it depends on the map. Also your queens are out a bit earlier.
It is maybe something small but it could save you a drone or 2
The 16 pool 16 gas you get lings out as well. A zerg shouldn't lose drones to the reaper with the 16 pool 16 gas as lings pop out in time.
On September 08 2013 20:57 AmuseD wrote: I have a question, the first ZvT build is 16 pool 16 gas against reaper expand. Why not 15-15? I saw life doing it plenty of time and it works better for when the reaper comes into your main your lings are more near to completing then with the 16-16. Ofc it depends on the map. Also your queens are out a bit earlier.
It is maybe something small but it could save you a drone or 2
The 16 pool 16 gas you get lings out as well. A zerg shouldn't lose drones to the reaper with the 16 pool 16 gas as lings pop out in time.
Ofcourse, BUt don't you think that 15-15 is a bit safer for the lower leagues?
Nice guide well written overall. although i'd say the standard ling baneling muta zvt is poorly detailed (talk flanking/scouting/positioning/decision making/unit control vs mines nextime), while mech isnt used at all because much less powerful than terran bio. I'd expected a much more thorough guide than standard benchmarks and all-ins options.
being highmasters myself, this thread doesnt adress the struggles i have zvt.
blade thanks first of all for writing this guide, it's pretty helpful and a great place to start out with. I'm curious though about the zvz 3queen roach build. You didn't list any timing for getting a baneling nest, thus meaning you have to defend with queens, wall, etc vs speedling allins, but on some maps you can't wall off before the zerg hits you with their mass speedlings or banelings, etc. You have any suggestions for this or do I just need to try a different build on those maps that are hard to wall off?
On September 09 2013 09:39 Gojira621 wrote: blade thanks first of all for writing this guide, it's pretty helpful and a great place to start out with. I'm curious though about the zvz 3queen roach build. You didn't list any timing for getting a baneling nest, thus meaning you have to defend with queens, wall, etc vs speedling allins, but on some maps you can't wall off before the zerg hits you with their mass speedlings or banelings, etc. You have any suggestions for this or do I just need to try a different build on those maps that are hard to wall off?
To be honest I just put it in because a friend of mine wrote the build order down and all that. I have never done it, but normally with these roach builds you get a roach warren instead of the baneling nest.
On September 09 2013 09:39 Gojira621 wrote: blade thanks first of all for writing this guide, it's pretty helpful and a great place to start out with. I'm curious though about the zvz 3queen roach build. You didn't list any timing for getting a baneling nest, thus meaning you have to defend with queens, wall, etc vs speedling allins, but on some maps you can't wall off before the zerg hits you with their mass speedlings or banelings, etc. You have any suggestions for this or do I just need to try a different build on those maps that are hard to wall off?
To be honest I just put it in because a friend of mine wrote the build order down and all that. I have never done it, but normally with these roach builds you get a roach warren instead of the baneling nest.
oh. well the build order says to get roach warren at 6 min and thats around the time youll get hit with 30 speedlings, thus leaving you with nothing to defend.
On September 09 2013 09:39 Gojira621 wrote: blade thanks first of all for writing this guide, it's pretty helpful and a great place to start out with. I'm curious though about the zvz 3queen roach build. You didn't list any timing for getting a baneling nest, thus meaning you have to defend with queens, wall, etc vs speedling allins, but on some maps you can't wall off before the zerg hits you with their mass speedlings or banelings, etc. You have any suggestions for this or do I just need to try a different build on those maps that are hard to wall off?
To be honest I just put it in because a friend of mine wrote the build order down and all that. I have never done it, but normally with these roach builds you get a roach warren instead of the baneling nest.
oh. well the build order says to get roach warren at 6 min and thats around the time youll get hit with 30 speedlings, thus leaving you with nothing to defend.
Well with queens + evo chamber + roach warren + spine crawler you should be able to wall off no problem. I can't think of a map that you can't wall off with tbh.
On September 09 2013 12:53 schwza wrote: Hey, I asked this earlier but maybe you missed it. When are the normal gas timings for 3rd-6th gas if you open gasless 4 queen? Thanks!
In zvz? You take your gas once you saturate both bases (the 3-4 gas). The 5th-6th gas really depends on what you want to go into. If you plan on doing pure roaches you don't need to take them for awhile unless you are doing a more passive roach style, if you are doing that then you should take them once your third is about to be saturated.
The muta/swarm host zvz build is awesome - I've been using it since you posted it a couple of months ago. Quite a few people on the ladder are surprised and have never seen it before. I'm curious - what is the best counter to it do you think? The only times I lose zvz now is either a surprise early ling rush or in a muta/ling/bling war.
Also, is the +1 air attack really worth it? I've found I only build about 8-9 mutas for map control and to hold off the roach rush - by the time +1 kicks in the mutas aren't that important anymore.
A work of art Blade & TL team! I like clear principles laid out: Prioritize the 2/2 over more mutalisks.
I was hoping that you could expand on the Ling/Bane/Muta. One my biggest challenges has been deciding spending gas on banelings or mutas - which do you prioritise and to what mix/level? Seems that banes can spend ALOT of gas quickly.
Lastly, when do you prioritise overlord speed: "Zerg should have overlord speed while teching to lair". Is it before or after Bane Nest?
Would you accept it, if i would translate this guide into german and post it in the Battle.net forums? There is already a thread but i think you would get even more readers if there would be a version in another language. Many people do not have the time translating everything if there english isn´t well enough :-)
i got a question blade55555 .. do you know any vods of pros/high master/gm in zvt where they incorporate swarmhost vs bio-mine ? or if ever you have played one .. i would love to see it .. thanks
On September 09 2013 12:53 schwza wrote: Hey, I asked this earlier but maybe you missed it. When are the normal gas timings for 3rd-6th gas if you open gasless 4 queen? Thanks!
In zvz? You take your gas once you saturate both bases (the 3-4 gas). The 5th-6th gas really depends on what you want to go into. If you plan on doing pure roaches you don't need to take them for awhile unless you are doing a more passive roach style, if you are doing that then you should take them once your third is about to be saturated.
Hi Blade, awesome job you did there, as usual ! Are you ok with me translating it into french and spreading it ? If you are, I will, of course, put the original link and tell people you wrote this !
Just watched that Akilon game vs protoss (lategame sh engagements).and I have to say you have some sick, sick lategame army control. any tips for improving that particular aspect of gameplay? i suppose just play more games. I find it frustrating , because at plat/dia it seems that protoss control is much more straight forward.
Also, in ZvT, you list out the hatch tech roach/baneling bust, but omit the speed roach/speed baneling version. how do you feel about this particular all-in? seems very strong to me. terran needs a ton of bunkers and/or siege tanks to hold it and tanks should be very scoutable (first factory is almost always near the ramp). Any thoughts?
On September 09 2013 14:35 Drinksarlot wrote: Thanks for posting, great guide.
The muta/swarm host zvz build is awesome - I've been using it since you posted it a couple of months ago. Quite a few people on the ladder are surprised and have never seen it before. I'm curious - what is the best counter to it do you think? The only times I lose zvz now is either a surprise early ling rush or in a muta/ling/bling war.
Also, is the +1 air attack really worth it? I've found I only build about 8-9 mutas for map control and to hold off the roach rush - by the time +1 kicks in the mutas aren't that important anymore.
tbh I can't really think of a best counter other then the other player going roach/hydra and trying to mass expand.
Yes I think +1 is worth it as I like to add mutas as well.
On September 09 2013 20:02 Crugio wrote: A work of art Blade & TL team! I like clear principles laid out: Prioritize the 2/2 over more mutalisks.
I was hoping that you could expand on the Ling/Bane/Muta. One my biggest challenges has been deciding spending gas on banelings or mutas - which do you prioritise and to what mix/level? Seems that banes can spend ALOT of gas quickly.
Lastly, when do you prioritise overlord speed: "Zerg should have overlord speed while teching to lair". Is it before or after Bane Nest?
I prioritize mutalisks unless I see an attack coming then I prioritize banelings.
I get overlord speed same time/slightly before baneling nest.
On September 10 2013 17:28 EXRNaRa wrote: Would you accept it, if i would translate this guide into german and post it in the Battle.net forums? There is already a thread but i think you would get even more readers if there would be a version in another language. Many people do not have the time translating everything if there english isn´t well enough :-)
Go ahead.
On September 10 2013 22:15 goody153 wrote: i got a question blade55555 .. do you know any vods of pros/high master/gm in zvt where they incorporate swarmhost vs bio-mine ? or if ever you have played one .. i would love to see it .. thanks
Last time I saw a zerg do it was on newkirk zenio vs some terran. It's only good on maps like that + akilon. It also requires the terran to stop being aggressive otherwise transitioning to those you will die.
On September 09 2013 12:53 schwza wrote: Hey, I asked this earlier but maybe you missed it. When are the normal gas timings for 3rd-6th gas if you open gasless 4 queen? Thanks!
In zvz? You take your gas once you saturate both bases (the 3-4 gas). The 5th-6th gas really depends on what you want to go into. If you plan on doing pure roaches you don't need to take them for awhile unless you are doing a more passive roach style, if you are doing that then you should take them once your third is about to be saturated.
Ack, sorry, I meant zvt.
I start 3-6 gas as soon as I start my lair (your 3 bases should be pretty saturated).
On September 11 2013 01:36 Thefan wrote: Hi Blade, awesome job you did there, as usual ! Are you ok with me translating it into french and spreading it ? If you are, I will, of course, put the original link and tell people you wrote this !
go ahead.
On September 11 2013 01:50 Lobotomist wrote: Just watched that Akilon game vs protoss (lategame sh engagements).and I have to say you have some sick, sick lategame army control. any tips for improving that particular aspect of gameplay? i suppose just play more games. I find it frustrating , because at plat/dia it seems that protoss control is much more straight forward.
Also, in ZvT, you list out the hatch tech roach/baneling bust, but omit the speed roach/speed baneling version. how do you feel about this particular all-in? seems very strong to me. terran needs a ton of bunkers and/or siege tanks to hold it and tanks should be very scoutable (first factory is almost always near the ramp). Any thoughts?
Well late game definitely requires better control from the zerg, where as protoss control isn't as much in the late game (especially vs voidray/colossi armies). Only way to improve that is to do that kind of play a lot (late game).
As for speed roach/bane bust I don't think it's very good anymore. I feel like terrans might still die to slow, but dying to a speed is almost not going to happen at all as the terran will realize what is happening and have more time to respond to that then say the slow version.
One thing I think is missing are the gas timings for Terran (after the first 2).
Without them listed, I'd assume you'd want 2 more as you start lair and another 2 as soon as third is saturated, but yeah - it wasn't in the guide and might as well be to match the comprehensiveness of the rest of the write-up!
On September 11 2013 10:46 ZigZiglar wrote: Awesome guide!
One thing I think is missing are the gas timings for Terran (after the first 2).
Without them listed, I'd assume you'd want 2 more as you start lair and another 2 as soon as third is saturated, but yeah - it wasn't in the guide and might as well be to match the comprehensiveness of the rest of the write-up!
I get the next 4 once I start my lair (3rd base should be pretty saturated by then).
On September 11 2013 11:45 CrashD wrote: Is there a reason your zvt scout goes out on 10 rather then 14? Thanks in advance
If you scout at 14 if you scout a proxy you can't prevent it, if you scout at 10 you can scout for proxies and get to his main base to decide whether to gasless, 3 hatch before pool or 15 hatch 16 pool 16 gas.
Blade, this guide is very well written and helpful but I have a request. More all in builds, or very strong timing attacks (because all ins aren't your style)
I feel all ins are a vital part of this game and are useable at high level play (Hyvaa) so it would be helpful to give us some more edge than the macro zerg style. Make the other races scout more on ladder.
On September 12 2013 03:40 Ephemera wrote: Blade, this guide is very well written and helpful but I have a request. More all in builds, or very strong timing attacks (because all ins aren't your style)
I feel all ins are a vital part of this game and are useable at high level play (Hyvaa) so it would be helpful to give us some more edge than the macro zerg style. Make the other races scout more on ladder.
Thanks for the guide
I don't write all ins because imo they aren't the best way to improve as a player and I also don't like doing them very much as I feel zerg cheese is terrible anyway. The cheeses I put that I think are good/ok I put in the guide.
What do you think of the current "DRG style" ZvP that uses ling and hydra (with ling upgrades) into a muta transition ? Do you think this is a strong style or a good opening, and can it transition well to your own style (with SH), or do you think it is just a metagame thing that won't last ?
The reason I ask is because whereas I love your SH style (that gives me the highest winrates and is in my opinion the most "reliable" thing to do vs a 3-base toss), I have some trouble securing map control on very open maps (like whirlwind), so I wondered if an aggressive style to deny toss' 3rd while spreading creep and teching up would not be easier to pull of instead of playing straight SH. I know you like to open roach hydra everytime you expect some agression or before securing a transition to SH, but in that regard I wanted to know if you tried a more ling heavy kind of play like the one DRG goes for ?
On September 12 2013 19:40 DjayEl wrote: Hi Blade,
What do you think of the current "DRG style" ZvP that uses ling and hydra (with ling upgrades) into a muta transition ? Do you think this is a strong style or a good opening, and can it transition well to your own style (with SH), or do you think it is just a metagame thing that won't last ?
The reason I ask is because whereas I love your SH style (that gives me the highest winrates and is in my opinion the most "reliable" thing to do vs a 3-base toss), I have some trouble securing map control on very open maps (like whirlwind), so I wondered if an aggressive style to deny toss' 3rd while spreading creep and teching up would not be easier to pull of instead of playing straight SH. I know you like to open roach hydra everytime you expect some agression or before securing a transition to SH, but in that regard I wanted to know if you tried a more ling heavy kind of play like the one DRG goes for ?
Thank you for your insight.
It's not really a DRG style as that has been popular in korea almost since hots release. It can be strong, but it's very predictable (everytime I watch a stream and a zerg does it, the protoss sees the hydra/ling, goes phoenix blindly and is correct in doing so because the zerg is going mutalisk, this also happens to me whenever I do it).
The SH style is kinda hard on maps like whirlwind due to how big and open it is, it's a fine style to do just expect many blind counters once they see only hydra/ling.
But what do you (in your own style) personally aim for on maps like Whilrwind, assuming Protoss is playing his standard gateway/colo/VR? Do you still go SH and try to make it work no matter what, do you choose Hyun' Style R/H/V and in that case, do you still want to transition to your "ideal" late game composition of SH/hydra/viper/infestor, or is it definitely not viable on this kind of maps ?
I feel like any other init composition has a timer on it unless you hit some timing, but at the same time SH feels so hard to pull off. Do you kinda all-in or gamble yourself on this map or do you do anything else? (again, assuming very standard P play). Thats the most tricky point for me in ZvP right now.
On September 12 2013 19:40 DjayEl wrote: Hi Blade,
What do you think of the current "DRG style" ZvP that uses ling and hydra (with ling upgrades) into a muta transition ? Do you think this is a strong style or a good opening, and can it transition well to your own style (with SH), or do you think it is just a metagame thing that won't last ?
The reason I ask is because whereas I love your SH style (that gives me the highest winrates and is in my opinion the most "reliable" thing to do vs a 3-base toss), I have some trouble securing map control on very open maps (like whirlwind), so I wondered if an aggressive style to deny toss' 3rd while spreading creep and teching up would not be easier to pull of instead of playing straight SH. I know you like to open roach hydra everytime you expect some agression or before securing a transition to SH, but in that regard I wanted to know if you tried a more ling heavy kind of play like the one DRG goes for ?
Thank you for your insight.
I think something that is important to point out about the ling/hydra style is its strength in BoX series because it provides a platform from which to perform many different builds. Think about the basic Hydra/Ling style in the midgame. You have:
-3-4 bases -1+ upgrading evo -6+ gases -5+ hatches.
The transitions you have from a ~12:30 timing are:
-add spire and go for mutas -add spire and go for a hydra ling corrupter timing attack (super potent if people are blindly phoenixing) -add infestation pit + second evo and go for a delayed viper endgame -add infestation pit and go for SH/static D
The spire transitions are, I feel, the strongest, but the sheer versatility of the build makes it very strong in series play. You might consider a more robust all 'round build for ladder however. All of the little adjustments Zerg can make require different responses from the protoss player (DRG style with double ups and lings vs Jaedong style of ranged first, etc).
Also I will say that playing straight SH styles on maps like WW and Frost seem pretty suicidal to me, and I think Blade also advises varying styles on maps like that. See his note here:
Maps this style is weak on: Whirlwind, Red City, Star Nation
Do you Blade (or anyone else) understand the build Nerchio did in a few ZvZ's at Dreamhack? I think it was like this:
15p 14g queen + 4 lings expand at 3:28
It has a tiny bit earlier expand than a 14/14, but much later ling speed. The 4 initial lings don't do anything anyway since it's a 15pool. I was very confused, and I just met it on ladder and crushed it. It just seems so bad, but since Nerchio used it I guess there must be some viable build, but how come?
On September 17 2013 02:27 Zheryn wrote: Do you Blade (or anyone else) understand the build Nerchio did in a few ZvZ's at Dreamhack? I think it was like this:
15p 14g queen + 4 lings expand at 3:28
It has a tiny bit earlier expand than a 14/14, but much later ling speed. The 4 initial lings don't do anything anyway since it's a 15pool. I was very confused, and I just met it on ladder and crushed it. It just seems so bad, but since Nerchio used it I guess there must be some viable build, but how come?
Um I don't know why you would do that, sounds kinda bad to me. Just because a pro does a build, doesn't necessarily mean it's good. I imagine it would be very good versus 10 pool or something maybe, but to play in a macro game dunno why you would do that.
Hi Blade, I need your help against the 2 immo 2 colo all-in. You seem to have no problem dealing with it using Roach + Swarmhost, but played a game where the Protoss was pushing the front of my natural at 11:00 with 4 zealots, 2 immos, 2 colos, 6 stalkers, 7 sentries, 1 WP and 1 core and I just had not enough units to defend. I had some roaches and like 4-5 SH building, and knew exactly what my opponent was doing, as well as pretty crisp development (imo).
What would you have done against such an early attack? Should I make only SH without any roach before starting roach production? Seems like I did something wrong, but cannot figure out what :s
On September 17 2013 20:10 DjayEl wrote: Hi Blade, I need your help against the 2 immo 2 colo all-in. You seem to have no problem dealing with it using Roach + Swarmhost, but played a game where the Protoss was pushing the front of my natural at 11:00 with 4 zealots, 2 immos, 2 colos, 6 stalkers, 7 sentries, 1 WP and 1 core and I just had not enough units to defend. I had some roaches and like 4-5 SH building, and knew exactly what my opponent was doing, as well as pretty crisp development (imo).
What would you have done against such an early attack? Should I make only SH without any roach before starting roach production? Seems like I did something wrong, but cannot figure out what :s
Basically you're not spending your larva on drones fast enough in the early game and you're getting supply blocked. You're behind in workers for the first 8 minutes of the game which means that you will never have enough units to defend it.
Hypothetically, if you would have had decent macro up to that point, and assuming you scout it as early as you did this game: I'd have skipped the overseers and spines, and gone straight for the swarm hosts before roaches, and made sure to get the creep spread out.
So... what advice do you have about overreacting to early scouting? I really struggle with this. Ex: T goes factory before CC but does no pressure, and instead double expos.
On September 20 2013 15:51 Joedaddy wrote: So... what advice do you have about overreacting to early scouting? I really struggle with this. Ex: T goes factory before CC but does no pressure, and instead double expos.
Yeah; I'm terrible with zerg and playing a few leagues lower with it
It's still safe to assume a faster Hellions pressure than usual, and you play normal on that. So you would wall up, build some lings, make queens to defend. Usually if they skip hellions/marine to go for expo, you have a huge advantage to use your lings to harass their expos. If they have to spent resources to build helion/marine, then their expos would be delayed, and you just drone up, take your expo, take your tech up freely. Because if they take double expos, they are no where to put pressure on you, so you're safe. And maybe you can prepare a baneling burst to scare them.
On September 20 2013 15:51 Joedaddy wrote: So... what advice do you have about overreacting to early scouting? I really struggle with this. Ex: T goes factory before CC but does no pressure, and instead double expos.
Yeah; I'm terrible with zerg and playing a few leagues lower with it
What I've found out to work fine when I scout a non-fast-expand-opening, is to make sure to just prepare for what can come, but still keep droning. Basically iff a terran goes for a one-base build it's going to be some kind of tech, and luckily for us zergs, queens do pretty damn well vs most 1base techs from a terran. I basically get a quick spine, keep building drones and queens and add a spore in each mineral line after a while, and only start producing lings if he still hasn't expanded for quite some time. 1base "mass unit" builds from a terran player isn't good at all and takes quite some time to get enough units out to be scary, so you don't have to start producing lings very early tbh.
On September 27 2013 23:42 balosan wrote: How do you deal with proxy 2 gate in zvp (not in base but on your side of the map) it seems like hatch first is just auto lose vs it.
Well I drone scout zvp on 2 player maps so that I don't go hatch first versus proxy 2 gate. If you hatch first and he proxy 2 gates there isn't really a way to win unless the protoss messes up. You can try killing the first zealot with drones, but you shouldn't win in this situation.
Question for ZvP, In both of your listed macro builds there are gas timing for first 2 gasses, I presume that you are meant to take more gas at some point, what is the gas timing for 3-4 and evt. 5-6 gasses in your ZvP macro builds?
On October 01 2013 01:10 Teddles wrote: Question for ZvP, In both of your listed macro builds there are gas timing for first 2 gasses, I presume that you are meant to take more gas at some point, what is the gas timing for 3-4 and evt. 5-6 gasses in your ZvP macro builds?
I get my 3rd/4th once I saturate 2 bases and get 5th, 6th once third is saturated or about to be saturated.
Thanks for the awesome guide, Blade. I'm a gold player who usually wins macro games but there are some things I'm really terrible at, namely, defending cheese and scouting. Yesterday, I played 5 games and lost 3: one to a proxy 2-gate, one to a cannon rush and one to a mass of early lings I didn't scout. I wonder if adding a section to your guide about defending common cheeses, or a section about scouting in HotS, would be worth the effort.
Very helpful as a Protoss player understanding what it is the Zerg opponent is thinking and trying to achieve while i'm off in my little corner doing Protossy things. :DD
I don't see a mention of getting corruptors in zvp vs colossus anywhere, have you mostly phased them out in favor of vipers? Corruptors are a bit more forgiving if you scout the robo bay late, as you don't have to wait for energy, as with the viper. Do you find that with proper hive timing, you don't find yourself in this position?
I don't see a mention of getting corruptors in zvp vs colossus anywhere, have you mostly phased them out in favor of vipers? Corruptors are a bit more forgiving if you scout the robo bay late, as you don't have to wait for energy, as with the viper. Do you find that with proper hive timing, you don't find yourself in this position?
That is correct my viper timing is pretty perfect in that I won't die to any colossi timings before vipers are out. Also I dislike corruptors because they suck and can't do anything once colossi are gone other then spew green shit over stalkers/immortals/etc.
If my opponent is going heavy colossi (like 6+) I will do corruptors, but if it's just 4-5 vipers are just fine. Even vs 6+ vipers are still good obviously, but corruptors are actually useful then as well.
I don't see a mention of getting corruptors in zvp vs colossus anywhere, have you mostly phased them out in favor of vipers? Corruptors are a bit more forgiving if you scout the robo bay late, as you don't have to wait for energy, as with the viper. Do you find that with proper hive timing, you don't find yourself in this position?
That is correct my viper timing is pretty perfect in that I won't die to any colossi timings before vipers are out. Also I dislike corruptors because they suck and can't do anything once colossi are gone other then spew green shit over stalkers/immortals/etc.
If my opponent is going heavy colossi (like 6+) I will do corruptors, but if it's just 4-5 vipers are just fine. Even vs 6+ vipers are still good obviously, but corruptors are actually useful then as well.
Blade, if you do end up going with corruptors, do you transition to Brood Lords instead of Ultras?
I don't see a mention of getting corruptors in zvp vs colossus anywhere, have you mostly phased them out in favor of vipers? Corruptors are a bit more forgiving if you scout the robo bay late, as you don't have to wait for energy, as with the viper. Do you find that with proper hive timing, you don't find yourself in this position?
That is correct my viper timing is pretty perfect in that I won't die to any colossi timings before vipers are out. Also I dislike corruptors because they suck and can't do anything once colossi are gone other then spew green shit over stalkers/immortals/etc.
If my opponent is going heavy colossi (like 6+) I will do corruptors, but if it's just 4-5 vipers are just fine. Even vs 6+ vipers are still good obviously, but corruptors are actually useful then as well.
Blade, if you do end up going with corruptors, do you transition to Brood Lords instead of Ultras?
Depends on the situation such as map and opponents units comp
On October 16 2013 04:26 Insoleet wrote: In ZvZ, how do you defend the melee build (upgraded ling into ultra) when you are going muta into ling upgrade + SH ?
And same question for an opponent going mass muta ?
Well muta/swarmhost will kinda shit on that build really hard as he won't have much to take on sh + mass muta.
If opponents going mass muta should be going muta yourself so it goes into a muta war you don't transition into sh in muta wars unless you want to lose xD
On October 16 2013 04:26 Insoleet wrote: In ZvZ, how do you defend the melee build (upgraded ling into ultra) when you are going muta into ling upgrade + SH ?
And same question for an opponent going mass muta ?
Well muta/swarmhost will kinda shit on that build really hard as he won't have much to take on sh + mass muta.
If opponents going mass muta should be going muta yourself so it goes into a muta war you don't transition into sh in muta wars unless you want to lose xD
Yes but the mass 1/1 ling harass is really cripping hard your economy, delay your third, because your lings are not strong enough. Shoud l defend with splitted mutas ?
And against mass muta I tried to got muta into double ling upgrade + Infestors but that didnt work. So many muta, my infestors couldnt kill them all. Maybe muta into roach/hydra/infestors would have worked better... I really hate muta wars. But I guess its the best way to play vs muta when you are starting with mutas ?
On October 16 2013 04:26 Insoleet wrote: In ZvZ, how do you defend the melee build (upgraded ling into ultra) when you are going muta into ling upgrade + SH ?
And same question for an opponent going mass muta ?
Well muta/swarmhost will kinda shit on that build really hard as he won't have much to take on sh + mass muta.
If opponents going mass muta should be going muta yourself so it goes into a muta war you don't transition into sh in muta wars unless you want to lose xD
Yes but the mass 1/1 ling harass is really cripping hard your economy, delay your third, because your lings are not strong enough. Shoud l defend with splitted mutas ?
And against mass muta I tried to got muta into double ling upgrade + Infestors but that didnt work. So many muta, my infestors couldnt kill them all. Maybe muta into roach/hydra/infestors would have worked better... I really hate muta wars. But I guess its the best way to play vs muta when you are starting with mutas ?
When you face the 1/1 ling harass you need to make more banelings then normal and I would start +1 melee before mutalisks as well so that banelings can 1 shot lings again.
In a muta war you can't go muta into double ling upgrade then infestors you will always have a timing where he can kill you. If you hate muta wars you might want to avoid going mutalisks then as (for me anyway) seems like muta wars are pretty common.
This guide is my bible. It's the first thing I open up when I'm in the mood to ladder. Thanks Blade!
Questions for anyone willing:
zvp...
I only watched a couple of your reps, but I noticed you go sh range before making any sh. Do you ever skip range for more sh if being all inned or do you ever wait to get it?
Do you have burrow and unburrow on r hotkey? I find it annoying when you add new sh to a control group they will unburrow before reburrowing.
What's an approx timing for the 4th base and do you add on macro hatches?
On October 22 2013 20:18 TRaFFiC wrote: This guide is my bible. It's the first thing I open up when I'm in the mood to ladder. Thanks Blade!
Questions for anyone willing:
zvp...
I only watched a couple of your reps, but I noticed you go sh range before making any sh. Do you ever skip range for more sh if being all inned or do you ever wait to get it?
Do you have burrow and unburrow on r hotkey? I find it annoying when you add new sh to a control group they will unburrow before reburrowing.
What's an approx timing for the 4th base and do you add on macro hatches?
I will skip range if I think they are doing a timing and I need sh asap, otherwise no.
Yes burrow/unburrow is same hotkey.
I get my 4th base when I saturate my bases normally, earlier if it's zvt (9 minutes if they do standard 3 CC). ZvP depends on what protoss is doing for my 4th timing.
Hi everyone! Is possible to beat a Terran 4M with infestors instead of mutas? The big problem I see is mutas are too weak on direct battles. I know I should make more defense for drops with infestors. Thanks
On October 22 2013 23:49 Destruktor wrote: Hi everyone! Is possible to beat a Terran 4M with infestors instead of mutas? The big problem I see is mutas are too weak on direct battles. I know I should make more defense for drops with infestors. Thanks
Roach hydra into infestor is somewhat viable, but you definitely have to do damage or delay the third. I haven't seen many (any) top level games where zergs go ling/bane/infestor.
Blade in ZvP i encounter more and more void ray into 3rd openings into void ray collo compositions. I need hydra along with my SH to stay alive early but when it goes to late game do i have to rely on creep with spores and 60min games? Nothing i try seems to be able to counter that deathball and while retreating with SHs buys me time, at somepoint i have nowhere to go to. I was thinking of skipping hydras for mass corruptors, but SHs will have to be the core still right? Maybe infestors instread of vipers?
On October 28 2013 03:41 kotsosh wrote: Blade in ZvP i encounter more and more void ray into 3rd openings into void ray collo compositions. I need hydra along with my SH to stay alive early but when it goes to late game do i have to rely on creep with spores and 60min games? Nothing i try seems to be able to counter that deathball and while retreating with SHs buys me time, at somepoint i have nowhere to go to. I was thinking of skipping hydras for mass corruptors, but SHs will have to be the core still right? Maybe infestors instread of vipers?
Do you have any replays vs that style?
I' m diamond
There should be replays in the thread, but vs void/colossi ultra/hydra/infestor/viper/swarmhost is really strong versus that composition. You do not have to do spores and play 60 minute games to beat this style.
Blade, how do you feel about 3 hatch before pool vs gate expands? I've seen pros use it pretty frequently, and it seems to work vs the late scouting that toss usually do. to me it seems risky, and very vulnerable to pylon blocks or zealot/stalker/msc pokes. When and how should one execute a 3-hatch before pool build? only when toss doesn't scout and you suspect a gate expand? if you see a gate expand? Only to metagame your opponent?
On November 05 2013 07:38 Lobotomist wrote: Blade, how do you feel about 3 hatch before pool vs gate expands? I've seen pros use it pretty frequently, and it seems to work vs the late scouting that toss usually do. to me it seems risky, and very vulnerable to pylon blocks or zealot/stalker/msc pokes. When and how should one execute a 3-hatch before pool build? only when toss doesn't scout and you suspect a gate expand? if you see a gate expand? Only to metagame your opponent?
Hm I am not a fan of 3 hatch before pool because of how late the ling upgrade is and I feel vulnerable. It's viable, just my cup of tea I swear every time I do it I get punished for it lol.
I would 3 hatch before pool if I scout it (or nexus first), if protoss doesn't scout at all I would as well (I would scout for potential proxies though).
On November 05 2013 17:27 Zorkmid wrote: In the Hatch into Pool - vs 1 Rax expand, also viable against reaper expand.
I think that you can overlord at 18 and not miss out on anything whatsoever. It's slightly more economical i think.
by hatch into pool do you mean can you do it vs rax expand? Any kind of expand is good versus that I guess I am not sure what you are saying/asking here.
No if you overlord at 18 you will be supply blocked once your pool finishes (unless you 3 hatch before pool) for a few seconds. It's not better.
On November 05 2013 17:27 Zorkmid wrote: No if you overlord at 18 you will be supply blocked once your pool finishes (unless you 3 hatch before pool) for a few seconds. It's not better.
I'm talking about 15 hatch, 16 pool, 18 overlord vs Terran. Ovie pops at same time the pool finishes.
On November 08 2013 18:52 THAmarx wrote: hey blade,
If i like to do hatch first vs toss.... but how do i deal with pylon blocks?
If a protoss is committing to a pylon block you will have to pool first. Unless you want to take the 3rd as your base first which he can still pylon block as well which then just forces you to pool first.
Do you think your ZvP build is still the best ? I see nowadays that pros use a lot of hydras timing push with a lot of mutas switches as well. I really need to improve my ZvP to punish protoss players, after Jaedong lost yesterday :p
On November 10 2013 21:59 SkullZ9 wrote: Hi Blade,
Do you think your ZvP build is still the best ? I see nowadays that pros use a lot of hydras timing push with a lot of mutas switches as well. I really need to improve my ZvP to punish protoss players, after Jaedong lost yesterday :p
There are a lot of ways to play zvp now, I think playing like the style jaedong plays is good and then doing some of the styles I written is good as well.
Don't look that hard at jaedongs losses to sos yesterday, game 1 he just messed up badly, game 2 cannon rush through him and did a lot more damage and sos just played really cheesy and did some weird stuff that threw jaedong off. Jaedongs style of zvp is really strong would definitely look at him if you want to see other zvp builds.
On November 11 2013 01:13 blade55555 wrote: Don't look that hard at jaedongs losses to sos yesterday, game 1 he just messed up badly, game 2 cannon rush through him and did a lot more damage and sos just played really cheesy and did some weird stuff that threw jaedong off. Jaedongs style of zvp is really strong would definitely look at him if you want to see other zvp builds.
Don't remind me. For me that was the least satisfying end to WCS imaginable. If you can imagine Rita Skeeter wandering in and shooting Harry Potter just after he kills Voldemort, that's what it felt like.
No disrespect to SoS implied. It's just that I'd followed JD all year and never seen SoS play a single match, and then he wins (partly) by doing the most infuriating thing a Protoss can do. Kinda hard to get behind that
On November 14 2013 18:24 Solanek wrote: This guide will be update with new patch changes like widow mine nerf,,oracle boost speeed etc?? Great guide !!
There isn't really a need to update with the mine nerf or oracle boost speed. Playing against oracles is same as before (spore at each base with some queens). Widow mine same thing except if you mess up it doesn't punish you as hard.
How do i take the third against reapers? They just camp on my third and when my queens are there, the hellions are already there and start damaging my queens. I always lose all my queens against reapers + 6 hellions. But if i dont to my third they kill my third with the reapers and hellions. How do i deal with that? (Mid Master Level)
On November 15 2013 22:16 ArkanTos wrote: How do i take the third against reapers? They just camp on my third and when my queens are there, the hellions are already there and start damaging my queens. I always lose all my queens against reapers + 6 hellions. But if i dont to my third they kill my third with the reapers and hellions. How do i deal with that? (Mid Master Level)
I take my third before the hellions are out. Metabolic boost upgrade should be done before they arrive (and if not just send 6-8 slow lings at the reaper and then a drone behind it to take it). That's how I take my third before hellion/reaper.
Okay, so first of all, I haven't played starcraft seriously in a while. I played "seriously" in late 2012, and I did pretty well thanks to blades youtube guides and was playing people high on the masters ladder (thanks blade!).
But I have a question, I just played a guy who called me a dirty whore after I said gl hf. As soon as I knew I won the game, (when he made like 10 drones at his expo) I started talking shit to him. I easily overran him with lings and he claimed I won because he was high. Did I respond correctly? I was pretty drunk at the time. I think that an experienced high player will usually beat a drunk player. But it really depends on a lot of other factors.
I can't believe I just wrote this all out, fuck me.
On a standar macro game against Toss I use the standard gasless opening and I try to make drones until 8:00 ( 3 saturated bases) but usually I lose vs 2 base all-ins like 7 gates, inmortal all-in and stuff like this I think because overdrone. Question:
When I have to cut my drone production vs 2 base all-in to have enough economy to hold it? Maybe when I see it or when I have 2 base saturation?
On November 17 2013 06:21 Destruktor wrote: Hi Blade! Plat. Zerg here!
On a standar macro game against Toss I use the standard gasless opening and I try to make drones until 8:00 ( 3 saturated bases) but usually I lose vs 2 base all-ins like 7 gates, inmortal all-in and stuff like this I think because overdrone. Question:
When I have to cut my drone production vs 2 base all-in to have enough economy to hold it? Maybe when I see it or when I have 2 base saturation?
Thanks in advanced.
You should be droning based on what your opponent is doing. Don't always drone until 8:00 because a 7 gate hits before that and you will just die.
Scouting with overlords and having good map awareness is very important, especially versus protoss (you see a probe leaving you want to follow it, want to know when protoss moves out and what he's doing).
If you sacrifice an overlord and see 5 gateways being morphed in (and he's on 2 bases) you don't want to continue droning, that's a situation you start making units to prepare for the all in.
Knowing when to stop droning all depends on what you scout and what your opponent is up to. For example a protoss who takes a greedy 3rd you can either try to punish it or be extremely greedy yourself. I
Just have to react to what you scout!
On November 16 2013 15:18 Rotodyne wrote: Okay, so first of all, I haven't played starcraft seriously in a while. I played "seriously" in late 2012, and I did pretty well thanks to blades youtube guides and was playing people high on the masters ladder (thanks blade!).
But I have a question, I just played a guy who called me a dirty whore after I said gl hf. As soon as I knew I won the game, (when he made like 10 drones at his expo) I started talking shit to him. I easily overran him with lings and he claimed I won because he was high. Did I respond correctly? I was pretty drunk at the time. I think that an experienced high player will usually beat a drunk player. But it really depends on a lot of other factors.
I can't believe I just wrote this all out, fuck me.
A good response to greedy play can be an all in, but there could be other situations to look out for as he probably could have held it if he had a baneling nest and you started making units after he made 10 drones he could have held assuming he wasn't being super super super greedy.
Big props to Blade for the write up. I can say from personal experience that that's the culmination of many hours of hard work. Big thanks
One thing I've always disliked about writing though is it doesn't have a visual element; it's hard to read a book about learning to cook, for instance, unless you're already pretty damn good at it In that vain, I took the most game changing part of this guide, for me at least, and made a video about it that I hope everyone else can enjoy. Namely, it's the ZvZ style blade seems to advocate, mutaling blind swarmhost into fast ultralisks. Simply amazing Hope I did it justice, but here's a link to my TL thread on it if anyone wants to check it out: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=434913#6
Ik have a question for zvt.. what usually happens is that terran is going for a reaper opening into hellion. Then the common options are => -fast cc with rax into bio mine push -fast starport with cloaked banshee harras -fast starport and raxs for a fast double drop with stimmed marines. depending on this i will have to react differently... so i have to know this. Can is send my first overlord that checked the nat into his main to have this information and get out... or how are you getting this information? Or maby don't you need it and you see it a different way.
On November 20 2013 21:37 THAmarx wrote: happy birthday blade,
Ik have a question for zvt.. what usually happens is that terran is going for a reaper opening into hellion. Then the common options are => -fast cc with rax into bio mine push -fast starport with cloaked banshee harras -fast starport and raxs for a fast double drop with stimmed marines. depending on this i will have to react differently... so i have to know this. Can is send my first overlord that checked the nat into his main to have this information and get out... or how are you getting this information? Or maby don't you need it and you see it a different way.
thx in advance
I sacrifice an overlord at 6-6:15 through the main (and have the natural overlord take a little peak in natural). If I don't see anything I pay attention to his hellion timing and how many. His hellion count can give away if he's going into banshee/hellion or not. Also with how popular it is seeing if he 3 CC's is another thing to look out for.
If you don't see anything at all I am throwing down 1 spore at least and if I see a banshee throw down another 2, 1 at each base.
Do you have any thoughts yet on tanks in zvt? I don't know whether they have become a LOT stronger, but people are certainly doing tank marine a lot more often and I had trouble with that in WoL already, without the Infestor nerf. So what do you do against that?
Blade, what are your thoughts on muta/corruptor in zvp? I watched the day 9 daily you linked in the OP, which made the style seem very strong. However, the build it was used against is very specific (1 Phoenix into voidray with fast 3rd into 2 more stargates into templar). Soulkey skipped the hydra den entirely (and the roach warren I believe) which you couldn't do unless you had a very good read on his gateway count. Also, its not uncommon (from what I've seen) for toss to build 4+ Phoenix instead of transitioning directly into voidray, at which point you probably don't want to go directly for muta. How viable are muta/corruptor compositions in the mid game when faced with situations other than the one the OP shows?
On November 20 2013 22:57 blarkh wrote: Happy birthday!
Do you have any thoughts yet on tanks in zvt? I don't know whether they have become a LOT stronger, but people are certainly doing tank marine a lot more often and I had trouble with that in WoL already, without the Infestor nerf. So what do you do against that?
Not sure I rarely faced tanks before in hots so I never knew how weak/good they are in general. I know people say they were bad, not sure though since I never played it hehe. But I would do ling/bane/muta with flanking and it works well against tanks. Also engaging when they aren't sieged is a plus if possible.
On November 21 2013 05:21 Lobotomist wrote: Blade, what are your thoughts on muta/corruptor in zvp? I watched the day 9 daily you linked in the OP, which made the style seem very strong. However, the build it was used against is very specific (1 Phoenix into voidray with fast 3rd into 2 more stargates into templar). Soulkey skipped the hydra den entirely (and the roach warren I believe) which you couldn't do unless you had a very good read on his gateway count. Also, its not uncommon (from what I've seen) for toss to build 4+ Phoenix instead of transitioning directly into voidray, at which point you probably don't want to go directly for muta. How viable are muta/corruptor compositions in the mid game when faced with situations other than the one the OP shows?
It's a strong style, I would never do it versus a player going heavy air though (3 stargates constantly pumping for example). I would do it against a phoenix if they only make 4-5 and I can kill some of them (or all of them).
It's a very viable strategy, but does require control and all that fun stuff.
On November 22 2013 22:45 blarkh wrote: Fair enough. What about mech with the tank buff though? I feel like SH are pretty useless against 5 or more tanks now.
On November 22 2013 22:45 blarkh wrote: Fair enough. What about mech with the tank buff though? I feel like SH are pretty useless against 5 or more tanks now.
Um it's always been that way with sh vs tank, the tank buff didn't change anything with it. SH is still the best way to play vs mech and getting vipers hydra/roach/ling, muta switch or bl/corr if you want are all strong versus mech. Vipers are what make mech not so broken, if it weren't for vipers zvt mech would probably be terran favored.
On November 22 2013 22:45 blarkh wrote: Fair enough. What about mech with the tank buff though? I feel like SH are pretty useless against 5 or more tanks now.
Um it's always been that way with sh vs tank, the tank buff didn't change anything with it. SH is still the best way to play vs mech and getting vipers hydra/roach/ling, muta switch or bl/corr if you want are all strong versus mech. Vipers are what make mech not so broken, if it weren't for vipers zvt mech would probably be terran favored.
I'd even dare to say that Viper are actually Imbalanced vs mech... >_<
On November 23 2013 07:37 Slapsticks wrote: Little bit confused about the Zergling/Baneling/Mutalisk/Swarm Host Build.
If I decide to build a 15 hatch, when do I build my pool? Likewise, if I go for a 15 pool, when should my hatch go down?
Should be in the builds but same time, 15 hatch 16 pool (or 3 hatch before pool). Imo you should never 15 pool versus terran, but if you ever 15 pool either 15 hatch or 16 hatch.
On November 25 2013 17:52 CutTheEnemy wrote: Any chance of updated replays since the patch? It takes forever to watch old replays every time they friggin patch the game...
Would love this too But I think as Blade already said, focusing on a few players (Jaedong for ZvP for example) is a good idea as well!
excellent guide as usual, good to brush up on my "standard" lair and gas timings for each matchup to get some refined builds going - its amazing what a difference the smallest adjustments can make in your play. my gas timings were a tiny bit off for the standard muta macro zvz and my winrate was awful, but that one small adjustment made the matchup my second strongest.
one thing i notice in the muta zvz build is that you take +1 air for it - is that under the assumption that your opponent isnt going muta? i just ran 10 mutas with +1 air versus 10 mutas with +1 carapace in the unit tester to be sure and carapace upgrades seem to scale extremely well especially at low numbers. should we be taking +1 carapace if we scout spire?
hmm ok I suppose. as of late ive been struggling against early helions from kr diamond players. try and get surrounds and ect but their control is always good enough to get the better engagement. maybe just work on my micro again.
do you still get a roach warren defensivly ? To be honest i only make it reactionary when spotting hellbats/blueflame or when i want to do a roach bane all in. I feel like a baneling nest can deal with the rest of the agression terran put up with. It's only hard to deal with banshee hellion marine agression. But some extra queens fill the gap untill mutas come out and chase it away.
On November 27 2013 23:15 THAmarx wrote: do you still get a roach warren defensivly ? To be honest i only make it reactionary when spotting hellbats/blueflame or when i want to do a roach bane all in. I feel like a baneling nest can deal with the rest of the agression terran put up with. It's only hard to deal with banshee hellion marine agression. But some extra queens fill the gap untill mutas come out and chase it away.
Yeah I do get it defensively. Is it a must? No, it all goes down to preference and I just prefer it unless I see my opponent is not doing hellions or something.
do you still get a roach warren defensivly ? To be honest i only make it reactionary when spotting hellbats/blueflame or when i want to do a roach bane all in. I feel like a baneling nest can deal with the rest of the agression terran put up with. It's only hard to deal with banshee hellion marine agression. But some extra queens fill the gap untill mutas come out and chase it away.
Yeah I do get it defensively. Is it a must? No, it all goes down to preference and I just prefer it unless I see my opponent is not doing hellions or something.
me with my big mouth... after i posted this i got hellbat pushed 3 times in a row. Roach warren would been helpfull ^^
It does depend a lot on variables.... Do you drone scout? How afraid are you of vikings/phoenix, what do you want the overlord to do, what is the general playstyle of your opponent, locations on the map, opponents opening, opportunity costs of having overlords in scouting position as opposed to defensive, etc.
Furthermore, any kind of dead space on the map OR unaccessible/hard to get vision of high-ground is a suitable location.
Hey Blade, great guide there. I am a bit lost in ZvZ now (EU mid master) and the match up is holding me back a lot. Which of the styles you mentioned do you think will work out the most in ladder? I just need a style to focus on in order to improve with that and general ZvZ mechanics.
On December 05 2013 03:12 Karpfen wrote: Hey Blade, great guide there. I am a bit lost in ZvZ now (EU mid master) and the match up is holding me back a lot. Which of the styles you mentioned do you think will work out the most in ladder? I just need a style to focus on in order to improve with that and general ZvZ mechanics.
Right now mutalisks are the most common on the ladder for sure. Most of my zvz's are muta wars.
hey blade, I am watching a lot of gm streams. I noticed a lot of gm open muta in tvz. They go instead of fast upgrades for a spire and make around 10 mutas. Getting map control over the hellion reaper / sometimes banshee. And then getting upgrades more bases and stuff. Is this a style you would recommend?
edit: when i asked the gm when he would do this he replied, only if they opened reaper.
On December 11 2013 21:49 THAmarx wrote: hey blade, I am watching a lot of gm streams. I noticed a lot of gm open muta in tvz. They go instead of fast upgrades for a spire and make around 10 mutas. Getting map control over the hellion reaper / sometimes banshee. And then getting upgrades more bases and stuff. Is this a style you would recommend?
edit: when i asked the gm when he would do this he replied, only if they opened reaper.
Um like fast 2 base muta? Opening muta is very common zvt but if it's 2 base muta it can be risky doing it but it can also be very good as well.
hey blade, I am watching a lot of gm streams. I noticed a lot of gm open muta in tvz. They go instead of fast upgrades for a spire and make around 10 mutas. Getting map control over the hellion reaper / sometimes banshee. And then getting upgrades more bases and stuff. Is this a style you would recommend?
edit: when i asked the gm when he would do this he replied, only if they opened reaper.
Um like fast 2 base muta? Opening muta is very common zvt but if it's 2 base muta it can be risky doing it but it can also be very good as well.
i would like to do the standard opener version. I like to have mapcontrol vs the reaper hellion and doing some presure forcing them to invest in missleturrets. My only problem is i dont know the optimal timings.
Standard opener is a 3rd around 6 minutes but you will have to make speedlings to defend against hellion reaper with that. If you want to push back the terran with mutas only you have to stay on 2 base. In any case you should start your lair at 100 gas and add 3 more gases imidiatly, you will have enaugh gas for 10 mutas when the spire finishes. For 2 base muta the earliest lair can start at 5:00 before that you hurt your mineral income too much. It is up to you how greedy you are going to be (skipping ling speed, late spine crawler, no 3rd queen). I personally dont like the risk/reward of 2 base muta but i'm just a low master scrub who likey theorycrafting so feel free to coppy the pros, i have seen scarlett do it and she is very good. If you want to go for the more standard 3 base opener and just skip the upgrades get your lair at 6:30. You will need speedlings to defend the early harass but you will have mutas earlier than most terrans expect it.
hey blade, I am watching a lot of gm streams. I noticed a lot of gm open muta in tvz. They go instead of fast upgrades for a spire and make around 10 mutas. Getting map control over the hellion reaper / sometimes banshee. And then getting upgrades more bases and stuff. Is this a style you would recommend?
edit: when i asked the gm when he would do this he replied, only if they opened reaper.
Um like fast 2 base muta? Opening muta is very common zvt but if it's 2 base muta it can be risky doing it but it can also be very good as well.
i would like to do the standard opener version. I like to have mapcontrol vs the reaper hellion and doing some presure forcing them to invest in missleturrets. My only problem is i dont know the optimal timings.
the OP has a standard zvt muta build that I still do today and most zergs do some sort of variation of it.
I have a question regarding ZvZ. I actually kinda like the matchup when muta/ling vs muta/ling. But I'm a bit lost currently now that there are a lot more players going for some kind of 2 base roach timing where they get +1/+1 quite early and can push out vs my mutas which won't arrive in time to defend. Is it even possible to defend these timings going muta? Or should I get a roach warren myself once I scout very early double evolution chambers?
On December 14 2013 23:17 roym899 wrote: I have a question regarding ZvZ. I actually kinda like the matchup when muta/ling vs muta/ling. But I'm a bit lost currently now that there are a lot more players going for some kind of 2 base roach timing where they get +1/+1 quite early and can push out vs my mutas which won't arrive in time to defend. Is it even possible to defend these timings going muta? Or should I get a roach warren myself once I scout very early double evolution chambers?
Yes it's possible to defend these timings. For starters being on top of your scouting is very important because the sooner you can see it coming the easier you can defend. You should be making a lot of spines when you see he's doing a roach timing and your mutas won't be too much later once he pushes out. Just make sure you make enough spines + ling support then mutas and you'll be ahead.
First, thanks blade for this awesome guide or maybe thanks for the second awesome guide from you. In the period of time, since the start from HOTs until now you helped me a lot, improving my playstyle and especially my ZvP. I have a question about the Muta vs Roach/Hydra in ZvZ. If i play Muta and see him not going Muta aswell and i do not stop at arround 8-10 Mutas and instead go to 20-25. How would you switch? Or would you even switch? Would you get melee upgrades and play with ling bane muta until infestors and ultras? Or would you start range upgrades and go into hydra roach as well? Because if i go bane ling muta, i don´t know when to switch into infestors as well. Because if he does and i do not scout it, its game over because if he engages in a good position my banes are fucked.
Hope you can read it, english is not my mother tongue.
very informative thread, i'm just getting back into sc2 after almost 2 years of not playing and i have to relearn everything so this has been a great help
On December 18 2013 05:51 EXRNaRa wrote: First, thanks blade for this awesome guide or maybe thanks for the second awesome guide from you. In the period of time, since the start from HOTs until now you helped me a lot, improving my playstyle and especially my ZvP. I have a question about the Muta vs Roach/Hydra in ZvZ. If i play Muta and see him not going Muta aswell and i do not stop at arround 8-10 Mutas and instead go to 20-25. How would you switch? Or would you even switch? Would you get melee upgrades and play with ling bane muta until infestors and ultras? Or would you start range upgrades and go into hydra roach as well? Because if i go bane ling muta, i don´t know when to switch into infestors as well. Because if he does and i do not scout it, its game over because if he engages in a good position my banes are fucked.
Hope you can read it, english is not my mother tongue.
Greetings!
this is based on how you want to play. You can make 20-25 mutalisks (be wary of fungal) and go into ultralisks, you can go into roach, you can go into swarmhosts, etc. It's really based on how you want to play. There is no right or wrong answer in what to go to.
Hey Blade, i am a bit frustrated atm but what am i supposed to do against kiting? I am maxed on ca. 20 SH 4 Vipers and rest hydra. I am killing parts of his army over and over again and than he just starts moving arround the map killing my bases and running away. Spines do not give a fuck about 200 supply protoss and he just moves away because my SH are too slow and my hydras are not good fighting alone. This is so frustrating, got this game at 20min mark won and he just moves arround another 20min and at any point he just says hello carrier because i have no money left. I can not kill his bases and defend mine at the same time. when i wanted to attack one of his bases he just moved to one of mine, if i stayed at mine he just took 3 more. Cannons also say good bye small unit packages.
On December 21 2013 18:01 EXRNaRa wrote: Hey Blade, i am a bit frustrated atm but what am i supposed to do against kiting? I am maxed on ca. 20 SH 4 Vipers and rest hydra. I am killing parts of his army over and over again and than he just starts moving arround the map killing my bases and running away. Spines do not give a fuck about 200 supply protoss and he just moves away because my SH are too slow and my hydras are not good fighting alone. This is so frustrating, got this game at 20min mark won and he just moves arround another 20min and at any point he just says hello carrier because i have no money left. I can not kill his bases and defend mine at the same time. when i wanted to attack one of his bases he just moved to one of mine, if i stayed at mine he just took 3 more. Cannons also say good bye small unit packages.
Ok first thing, 20 SH is too much. I would limit myself to 12 max. Having mass spines is helpful but having some roaches there as well once you see the warp prism.
On December 21 2013 19:49 PoulsenB wrote: Hi Blade, do you plan to release another replay pack soon? Would be great to have some material to compare with the guide
Some point I will not sure when yet.
On December 23 2013 16:03 StutteR wrote: I've been trying to work banelings into my ZvP
How do you feel about 2 base Ling/bane all in vs Protoss FFE? How about banes instead of roaches for FE 4 gate timings?
Not a huge fan of 2 base allins vs protoss, MSC makes 2 base pushes pretty bad and in general FF negates a ling/bane bust. I wouldn't recommend it. Same with vs 4 gate timings because banelings just aren't that good versus protoss.
When facing gateway expand, there is always the possibility of a 4-gate timing designed to kill your third base. This attack can be held relatively easily as long as the Zerg player sees it coming. The easiest way to deal with this attack is to prevent the pylon from going up, which is possible as long as the Zerg player has speedlings looking around.
A good way to prevent it is to have six lings scouting around for common pylon locations and making sure to keep tabs on the Protoss army when it moves out. If you don't manage to deny the pylon, you'll be forced to make a ton of speedlings and overwhelm the push before he gets many warp-ins done.
Throwing down a roach warren is never a bad idea at around 6:15-6:30 if you think the Protoss is going to be very aggressive. Otherwise you can just wait start lair then get a roach warren and evolution chamber.
I loose every game vs Protoss if he does his dumb 4 Gate from 2 bases. He warps in at 6:15 and my roachwarren is started at six. Lings do not give a fuck about the first 4 Zealots, and than there come the next 4 + MS. What should you do? I just dont get it. The moment the pylon is up i loose the game, thats a joke. There is not enough larva at my just finished 3 to build roaches there and if my roaches spawn they are way too far away. My 3 goes down for sure and i have lost the game with to a dumb 2 base allin. Do you have any VODs where you face this?
When facing gateway expand, there is always the possibility of a 4-gate timing designed to kill your third base. This attack can be held relatively easily as long as the Zerg player sees it coming. The easiest way to deal with this attack is to prevent the pylon from going up, which is possible as long as the Zerg player has speedlings looking around.
A good way to prevent it is to have six lings scouting around for common pylon locations and making sure to keep tabs on the Protoss army when it moves out. If you don't manage to deny the pylon, you'll be forced to make a ton of speedlings and overwhelm the push before he gets many warp-ins done.
Throwing down a roach warren is never a bad idea at around 6:15-6:30 if you think the Protoss is going to be very aggressive. Otherwise you can just wait start lair then get a roach warren and evolution chamber.
I loose every game vs Protoss if he does his dumb 4 Gate from 2 bases. He warps in at 6:15 and my roachwarren is started at six. Lings do not give a fuck about the first 4 Zealots, and than there come the next 4 + MS. What should you do? I just dont get it. The moment the pylon is up i loose the game, thats a joke. There is not enough larva at my just finished 3 to build roaches there and if my roaches spawn they are way too far away. My 3 goes down for sure and i have lost the game with to a dumb 2 base allin. Do you have any VODs where you face this?
1. 4 gate off 2 bases is not dumb nor an all-in. 2. The standard vs 4gate is not 6 min RW but 5:30 (if you want to go for it, I prefer to deny pylons with more or less 14 speedlings). 3. You reacting badly to a scouted build and losing is not a joke, it's you doing errors. 4. Your second queen should spread creep and head to the third base (so you inject when it pops and have larvae ready to make your roaches from there). 5. Still, make some lings to scout around the pylons, that helps a lot because you can delay his attack or make him not do it at all.
When facing gateway expand, there is always the possibility of a 4-gate timing designed to kill your third base. This attack can be held relatively easily as long as the Zerg player sees it coming. The easiest way to deal with this attack is to prevent the pylon from going up, which is possible as long as the Zerg player has speedlings looking around.
A good way to prevent it is to have six lings scouting around for common pylon locations and making sure to keep tabs on the Protoss army when it moves out. If you don't manage to deny the pylon, you'll be forced to make a ton of speedlings and overwhelm the push before he gets many warp-ins done.
Throwing down a roach warren is never a bad idea at around 6:15-6:30 if you think the Protoss is going to be very aggressive. Otherwise you can just wait start lair then get a roach warren and evolution chamber.
I loose every game vs Protoss if he does his dumb 4 Gate from 2 bases. He warps in at 6:15 and my roachwarren is started at six. Lings do not give a fuck about the first 4 Zealots, and than there come the next 4 + MS. What should you do? I just dont get it. The moment the pylon is up i loose the game, thats a joke. There is not enough larva at my just finished 3 to build roaches there and if my roaches spawn they are way too far away. My 3 goes down for sure and i have lost the game with to a dumb 2 base allin. Do you have any VODs where you face this?
I have some on my stream and youtube. But as I said in there it's easy to kill as long as you see it coming. If it catches you by surprise you are going to probably take a lot of damage from it. If you have speedlings scouting everywhere and overlords in common pylon positions you won't be surprised by this. You'll be able to deny the pylon and if not you'll be able to make a round of lings and overwhelm it before he gets too many zealots.
You are making mistakes if you are scouting it and still taking a lot of damage (not making enough units or attacking in a bad position, either way if you scout it before he even has his first warp in a round of lings and you should be able to clean it up before it gets to scary.)
On December 27 2013 09:14 CivilAnarchy wrote: Do you have any replays of the Roach Allin Build against gateway expands? And are you supposed to have full saturation on both bases, or cut drones?
You won't have 2 saturated bases, well in terms of mineral you will be but you will only be mining off of 2-3 gas.
Hey Blade! I just played a ZvT on Daidalos. So its quite a big map with Tons of open space. I have problems facing mech so or so but this time he did something that made it unbeatable for me. I went to like 12-14 SH after i defended arround 5 Blueflame helion attacks with 6 helions with roaches (Weird sentence). So i was on 4 Bases had my economy going and started teching into hydras (for banshee defence ect.) and build my hive and greater spire. He took his third and spread tanks in a huge line in front of his third which made it untouchable. I got my BL up with some corrupters and my SH and thats it. I did not want to make too much ground units because he had a shittone of Tanks and Thors and the rest of the usual mech stuff. So i attacked with my force at his third, and he just split his army and moved arround to kill my 4th and 5th the same time. My BL were too slow and i could not catch his army. What to do against a mech terran who just counter attacks with his huge ground force and avoid your BL? My army was quite immobile with the BL as my main army comp. I could have beat his army with ease, but the map did not allowed me to prevent him from running arround me. Are BL not good for fighting mech or is there a limit for a BL count? So you can have still a mobile ground force. Because normaly i dislike it to have a lot of roach hydra like you recommend it most of the time in this guide, because it just melts vs tanks. And if i just send my Roach Hydra (Viper) back he kills my BL or if i sent everything back my BLs are too slow and get shot down by Vikings. Hard to describe.
Around what timing do you want to take your 5th and 6th gas in ZvP? Im trying to move away from roaches as much as possible since swarm hosts are much more cost effective and worth the mid game investment.
I want to be able to safely defend against a possible sentry/immortal all in (when I scout robo) and then either pressure or prevent them from getting their 3rd with ling/hydra/swarm host. Is this possible or should I just expand and tech to vipers from here. Assuming he gets Collossus and does manage to secure a third, is it worth it to build corruptors anymore outside of the intention to make Broodlords?
Edit: assuming he goes Robo and tries to expand with it rather than attack, would my swarm host/ling/hydra timing work?
On January 07 2014 06:40 EXRNaRa wrote: Hey Blade! I just played a ZvT on Daidalos. So its quite a big map with Tons of open space. I have problems facing mech so or so but this time he did something that made it unbeatable for me. I went to like 12-14 SH after i defended arround 5 Blueflame helion attacks with 6 helions with roaches (Weird sentence). So i was on 4 Bases had my economy going and started teching into hydras (for banshee defence ect.) and build my hive and greater spire. He took his third and spread tanks in a huge line in front of his third which made it untouchable. I got my BL up with some corrupters and my SH and thats it. I did not want to make too much ground units because he had a shittone of Tanks and Thors and the rest of the usual mech stuff. So i attacked with my force at his third, and he just split his army and moved arround to kill my 4th and 5th the same time. My BL were too slow and i could not catch his army. What to do against a mech terran who just counter attacks with his huge ground force and avoid your BL? My army was quite immobile with the BL as my main army comp. I could have beat his army with ease, but the map did not allowed me to prevent him from running arround me. Are BL not good for fighting mech or is there a limit for a BL count? So you can have still a mobile ground force. Because normaly i dislike it to have a lot of roach hydra like you recommend it most of the time in this guide, because it just melts vs tanks. And if i just send my Roach Hydra (Viper) back he kills my BL or if i sent everything back my BLs are too slow and get shot down by Vikings. Hard to describe.
Hope you can read it, excuse my english please.
PS: Do you offer coaching?
Against a mech terran go for the base trade (his army is very immobile as well) just make sure you get rid of his tech in his main so that he isn't rebuilding. You do this then go kill his army and make sure you get your drones out while saturating your bases. You can also make a lot of mutalisks to deal with the mech counter attack as well (sacrifice any ground forces except sh).
I do offer coaching but it's not free (I charge 20$ an hour).
On January 09 2014 14:33 sagefreke wrote: Around what timing do you want to take your 5th and 6th gas in ZvP? Im trying to move away from roaches as much as possible since swarm hosts are much more cost effective and worth the mid game investment.
I want to be able to safely defend against a possible sentry/immortal all in (when I scout robo) and then either pressure or prevent them from getting their 3rd with ling/hydra/swarm host. Is this possible or should I just expand and tech to vipers from here. Assuming he gets Collossus and does manage to secure a third, is it worth it to build corruptors anymore outside of the intention to make Broodlords?
Edit: assuming he goes Robo and tries to expand with it rather than attack, would my swarm host/ling/hydra timing work?
I take my 5th and 6th gases once my 3rd is saturated. I would go vipers, you can go corruptors if he's making a lot of colossi though. Any swarmhost timing can work but most likely not if the protoss is smart, but you can keep chipping away while teching and all that.
15- hatch/pool (up to you) 16h (if 15 pool) 4:00 - get gas 5:50 - get 2nd gas 6:00 - start lair, roach warren, evo chamber +1 missile attack asap 6:30 - third gas third gas finishes - get fourth gas 7:00 - get third Lair finishes - get roach speed
What are the gas timings for a build where you take your Gas like at 16 or 17? When you play it with a Bane Nest to be safe in the early game and than go into roaches. I don´t want to play gasless until 4min and also don´t want to go Muta. Is there a build by Blade or someone else?
15- hatch/pool (up to you) 16h (if 15 pool) 4:00 - get gas 5:50 - get 2nd gas 6:00 - start lair, roach warren, evo chamber +1 missile attack asap 6:30 - third gas third gas finishes - get fourth gas 7:00 - get third Lair finishes - get roach speed
What are the gas timings for a build where you take your Gas like at 16 or 17? When you play it with a Bane Nest to be safe in the early game and than go into roaches. I don´t want to play gasless until 4min and also don´t want to go Muta. Is there a build by Blade or someone else?
16 is 3:00, 17 is 3:10 more or less.
"Safe Roach Opener" ZvZ by Violet 9 Overlord 15 Pool 16 Hatch 15 Overlord 15 Queen + Gas *Ling scout Queen (3:50) Speed (4:15) Baneling Nest (5:00) Lingxx3 (5:30) Lingxx3 (6:10) Lair (6:20) Evo chamber (6:45) Gasx3 (7:00) Roach Warren (7:15) +1 Ranged (7:45) Roach Speed (8:10)
I took it from the op of the zerg help me thread. it's a very safe way (even a bit too much imo) to get to roaches.
On February 27 2014 01:14 Zorkmid wrote: The spire swarm host ZvZ doesnt get much econ. Not a great build.
It's actually really awesome build. You get a huge tech lead and he can't just expand either since you got mutas while you actually can. Someone did an.. episode about his style in a game where i took out revival. It's the part of the guide i like the most and use every zvz.
On February 27 2014 01:14 Zorkmid wrote: The spire swarm host ZvZ doesnt get much econ. Not a great build.
It's actually really awesome build. You get a huge tech lead and he can't just expand either since you got mutas while you actually can. Someone did an.. episode about his style in a game where i took out revival. It's the part of the guide i like the most and use every zvz.
Doesn't even allow you to get a queen when your pool finishes.
I use this ZvZ style at top dia and win 80% of the games in which I don"t get 2 base ling bane all-inned (a weak point of mine). It is great, and the funny thing about it is my opponents don't understand what is happening and why then can't kill me with their R/H push like they were supposed to according to their play experience. I completely throws them off guard and they don't make the right decisions. It's quite funny that nobody seem to know this build, maybe because i'm playing in EU. I guess this guide has a lot more readers here on US server.
On February 27 2014 01:14 Zorkmid wrote: The spire swarm host ZvZ doesnt get much econ. Not a great build.
It's actually really awesome build. You get a huge tech lead and he can't just expand either since you got mutas while you actually can. Someone did an.. episode about his style in a game where i took out revival. It's the part of the guide i like the most and use every zvz.
Doesn't even allow you to get a queen when your pool finishes.
Uh the spire/sh build zvz doesn't sacrifice queen timing lol. It's a normal muta build zvz I don't get how you are saying you can't get a queen when your pool finishes this is 100% wrong.
On February 27 2014 01:14 Zorkmid wrote: The spire swarm host ZvZ doesnt get much econ. Not a great build.
It's actually really awesome build. You get a huge tech lead and he can't just expand either since you got mutas while you actually can. Someone did an.. episode about his style in a game where i took out revival. It's the part of the guide i like the most and use every zvz.
Doesn't even allow you to get a queen when your pool finishes.
Uh the spire/sh build zvz doesn't sacrifice queen timing lol. It's a normal muta build zvz I don't get how you are saying you can't get a queen when your pool finishes this is 100% wrong.
If you go 15 pool, 16 hatch (as I assume your build is meant to do) you can't. Havent' tried the 15 hatch 16 pool variant.
On March 01 2014 04:27 Zorkmid wrote: If you go 15 pool, 16 hatch (as I assume your build is meant to do) you can't. Havent' tried the 15 hatch 16 pool variant.
Yes you can.. But you should get it before an additional drone if that's what you mean. 15p 16h 15ol 15q 17ling 18gas
and then you start second queen just when the first one finish.. i usually que it up just a few sec before and this isn't specific to his zvz style this is just the opening.. a very standard opening most people use.
On February 27 2014 01:14 Zorkmid wrote: The spire swarm host ZvZ doesnt get much econ. Not a great build.
It's actually really awesome build. You get a huge tech lead and he can't just expand either since you got mutas while you actually can. Someone did an.. episode about his style in a game where i took out revival. It's the part of the guide i like the most and use every zvz.
Doesn't even allow you to get a queen when your pool finishes.
Uh the spire/sh build zvz doesn't sacrifice queen timing lol. It's a normal muta build zvz I don't get how you are saying you can't get a queen when your pool finishes this is 100% wrong.
If you go 15 pool, 16 hatch (as I assume your build is meant to do) you can't. Havent' tried the 15 hatch 16 pool variant.
I am not sure why you are saying you can't get a queen and stating it as a fact when you are wrong. You can and I do every time. And the build that I do is meant to do either hatch first or 15P, both work. The better one is obviously hatch first.
On February 27 2014 01:14 Zorkmid wrote: The spire swarm host ZvZ doesnt get much econ. Not a great build.
It's actually really awesome build. You get a huge tech lead and he can't just expand either since you got mutas while you actually can. Someone did an.. episode about his style in a game where i took out revival. It's the part of the guide i like the most and use every zvz.
Doesn't even allow you to get a queen when your pool finishes.
Uh the spire/sh build zvz doesn't sacrifice queen timing lol. It's a normal muta build zvz I don't get how you are saying you can't get a queen when your pool finishes this is 100% wrong.
If you go 15 pool, 16 hatch (as I assume your build is meant to do) you can't. Havent' tried the 15 hatch 16 pool variant.
I am not sure why you are saying you can't get a queen and stating it as a fact when you are wrong. You can and I do every time. And the build that I do is meant to do either hatch first or 15P, both work. The better one is obviously hatch first.
I would challenge anyone to go 9 overlord, 15 pool, 16 hatch, 17 gas, 17 overlord and be able to make an ovie as soon as the pool finishes.
On February 27 2014 01:14 Zorkmid wrote: The spire swarm host ZvZ doesnt get much econ. Not a great build.
It's actually really awesome build. You get a huge tech lead and he can't just expand either since you got mutas while you actually can. Someone did an.. episode about his style in a game where i took out revival. It's the part of the guide i like the most and use every zvz.
Doesn't even allow you to get a queen when your pool finishes.
Uh the spire/sh build zvz doesn't sacrifice queen timing lol. It's a normal muta build zvz I don't get how you are saying you can't get a queen when your pool finishes this is 100% wrong.
If you go 15 pool, 16 hatch (as I assume your build is meant to do) you can't. Havent' tried the 15 hatch 16 pool variant.
I am not sure why you are saying you can't get a queen and stating it as a fact when you are wrong. You can and I do every time. And the build that I do is meant to do either hatch first or 15P, both work. The better one is obviously hatch first.
I would challenge anyone to go 9 overlord, 15 pool, 16 hatch, 17 gas, 17 overlord and be able to make an ovie as soon as the pool finishes.
For team games I do 15 pool, 16 gas, 17 hatch, 16 queen, 18 OL. You will collect 2 larva while waiting for the OL to pop, but shouldn't go to three, so no larva wasted. If case you scout and hunt scouts or are behind with your OL compared to larva for whatever reason, you can build 2 OLs to not waste larva. Should work as well, or better, for pool hatch gas.
I am silver though, so don't trust the information with your life. :o)
Blade, how often do you end up building roaches in ZvT these days? Most pro ZvT games i see vs reaper openings get the third hatch started right when ling speed finishes and you have a brief map control window before hellion/reaper pressure begins. Then, they defend with queens/lings. I like the value of having a RW if you find they're going mech, but it seems less optimal to defend standard hellion/reaper pressure with roaches.
Sorry if this question has been answered already. Thanks!
Edit: Also! How do you feel about builds that choose lair before +1/+1? With the return of hellion/banshee openers to the meta, seems like faster overseers could be nice, though spores would work if you're careful about not getting them killed by ground units.
On March 07 2014 10:00 Lobotomist wrote: Blade, how often do you end up building roaches in ZvT these days? Most pro ZvT games i see vs reaper openings get the third hatch started right when ling speed finishes and you have a brief map control window before hellion/reaper pressure begins. Then, they defend with queens/lings. I like the value of having a RW if you find they're going mech, but it seems less optimal to defend standard hellion/reaper pressure with roaches.
Sorry if this question has been answered already. Thanks!
Edit: Also! How do you feel about builds that choose lair before +1/+1? With the return of hellion/banshee openers to the meta, seems like faster overseers could be nice, though spores would work if you're careful about not getting them killed by ground units.
I am not playing sc2 these days and I wasn't building roaches unless I saw a lot of hellions or if I knew hellion/banshee. Vs reaper opening I would always get my 3rd 5:30-6 unless their reaper could delay it, then it would be as soon as my third finished as well.
Going lair before 1/1 is fine, but I know I prefer those upgrades even vs reaper/banshee.
On February 27 2014 01:14 Zorkmid wrote: The spire swarm host ZvZ doesnt get much econ. Not a great build.
It's actually really awesome build. You get a huge tech lead and he can't just expand either since you got mutas while you actually can. Someone did an.. episode about his style in a game where i took out revival. It's the part of the guide i like the most and use every zvz.
Doesn't even allow you to get a queen when your pool finishes.
Uh the spire/sh build zvz doesn't sacrifice queen timing lol. It's a normal muta build zvz I don't get how you are saying you can't get a queen when your pool finishes this is 100% wrong.
If you go 15 pool, 16 hatch (as I assume your build is meant to do) you can't. Havent' tried the 15 hatch 16 pool variant.
I am not sure why you are saying you can't get a queen and stating it as a fact when you are wrong. You can and I do every time. And the build that I do is meant to do either hatch first or 15P, both work. The better one is obviously hatch first.
I would challenge anyone to go 9 overlord, 15 pool, 16 hatch, 17 gas, 17 overlord and be able to make an ovie as soon as the pool finishes.
why did you ignore incand's post? he correctly explained it to you: the author assumes you know how to adjust OL and gas timings when switching from 15h to 15p. you don't build OL on 17 for 15p, you build it on 15.
On March 07 2014 10:00 Lobotomist wrote: Blade, how often do you end up building roaches in ZvT these days? Most pro ZvT games i see vs reaper openings get the third hatch started right when ling speed finishes and you have a brief map control window before hellion/reaper pressure begins. Then, they defend with queens/lings. I like the value of having a RW if you find they're going mech, but it seems less optimal to defend standard hellion/reaper pressure with roaches.
Sorry if this question has been answered already. Thanks!
Edit: Also! How do you feel about builds that choose lair before +1/+1? With the return of hellion/banshee openers to the meta, seems like faster overseers could be nice, though spores would work if you're careful about not getting them killed by ground units.
I am not playing sc2 these days and I wasn't building roaches unless I saw a lot of hellions or if I knew hellion/banshee. Vs reaper opening I would always get my 3rd 5:30-6 unless their reaper could delay it, then it would be as soon as my third finished as well.
Going lair before 1/1 is fine, but I know I prefer those upgrades even vs reaper/banshee.
EPT
Liquipedia(ZvT)![[image loading]](/staff/wo1fwood/TLStrategy/Guides/proj6/zvt2.png)
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DongraeGu vs Innovation on Whirlwind from WCS Season 3 Korea.
Blade's game on Akilon Wastes Muta ling bane into ultralisks![[image loading]](/staff/wo1fwood/TLStrategy/Guides/proj6/zvz.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/wo1fwood/TLStrategy/Guides/proj6/zvz2.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/wo1fwood/TLStrategy/Guides/proj6/zvp.png)
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