|
Around what timing do you want to take your 5th and 6th gas in ZvP? Im trying to move away from roaches as much as possible since swarm hosts are much more cost effective and worth the mid game investment.
I want to be able to safely defend against a possible sentry/immortal all in (when I scout robo) and then either pressure or prevent them from getting their 3rd with ling/hydra/swarm host. Is this possible or should I just expand and tech to vipers from here. Assuming he gets Collossus and does manage to secure a third, is it worth it to build corruptors anymore outside of the intention to make Broodlords?
Edit: assuming he goes Robo and tries to expand with it rather than attack, would my swarm host/ling/hydra timing work?
|
On January 07 2014 06:40 EXRNaRa wrote:
Hey Blade! I just played a ZvT on Daidalos. So its quite a big map with Tons of open space. I have problems facing mech so or so but this time he did something that made it unbeatable for me.
I went to like 12-14 SH after i defended arround 5 Blueflame helion attacks with 6 helions with roaches (Weird sentence).
So i was on 4 Bases had my economy going and started teching into hydras (for banshee defence ect.) and build my hive and greater spire.
He took his third and spread tanks in a huge line in front of his third which made it untouchable.
I got my BL up with some corrupters and my SH and thats it. I did not want to make too much ground units because he had a shittone of Tanks and Thors and the rest of the usual mech stuff. So i attacked with my force at his third, and he just split his army and moved arround to kill my 4th and 5th the same time. My BL were too slow and i could not catch his army.
What to do against a mech terran who just counter attacks with his huge ground force and avoid your BL?
My army was quite immobile with the BL as my main army comp. I could have beat his army with ease, but the map did not allowed me to prevent him from running arround me. Are BL not good for fighting mech or is there a limit for a BL count? So you can have still a mobile ground force. Because normaly i dislike it to have a lot of roach hydra like you recommend it most of the time in this guide, because it just melts vs tanks.
And if i just send my Roach Hydra (Viper) back he kills my BL or if i sent everything back my BLs are too slow and get shot down by Vikings. Hard to describe.
Hope you can read it, excuse my english please.
PS: Do you offer coaching?
Against a mech terran go for the base trade (his army is very immobile as well) just make sure you get rid of his tech in his main so that he isn't rebuilding. You do this then go kill his army and make sure you get your drones out while saturating your bases. You can also make a lot of mutalisks to deal with the mech counter attack as well (sacrifice any ground forces except sh).
I do offer coaching but it's not free (I charge 20$ an hour).
On January 09 2014 14:33 sagefreke wrote:
Around what timing do you want to take your 5th and 6th gas in ZvP? Im trying to move away from roaches as much as possible since swarm hosts are much more cost effective and worth the mid game investment.
I want to be able to safely defend against a possible sentry/immortal all in (when I scout robo) and then either pressure or prevent them from getting their 3rd with ling/hydra/swarm host. Is this possible or should I just expand and tech to vipers from here. Assuming he gets Collossus and does manage to secure a third, is it worth it to build corruptors anymore outside of the intention to make Broodlords?
Edit: assuming he goes Robo and tries to expand with it rather than attack, would my swarm host/ling/hydra timing work?
I take my 5th and 6th gases once my 3rd is saturated. I would go vipers, you can go corruptors if he's making a lot of colossi though. Any swarmhost timing can work but most likely not if the protoss is smart, but you can keep chipping away while teching and all that.
|
Russian Federation262 Posts
Could we get an update for this?
Or it is still viable?
|
On January 27 2014 17:59 wishr wrote:
Could we get an update for this?
Or it is still viable?
Still works fine. But you may want to check out things like his ZvMech guide and such to complement it.
|
15- hatch/pool (up to you)
16h (if 15 pool)
4:00 - get gas
5:50 - get 2nd gas
6:00 - start lair, roach warren, evo chamber
+1 missile attack asap
6:30 - third gas
third gas finishes - get fourth gas
7:00 - get third
Lair finishes - get roach speed
What are the gas timings for a build where you take your Gas like at 16 or 17?
When you play it with a Bane Nest to be safe in the early game and than go into roaches.
I don´t want to play gasless until 4min and also don´t want to go Muta.
Is there a build by Blade or someone else?
|
It's amazing how useful this still is!! Though, it may soon be time for an update (esp. If the balance map goes through)
|
On January 29 2014 04:27 EXRNaRa wrote:Show nested quote + 15- hatch/pool (up to you)
16h (if 15 pool)
4:00 - get gas
5:50 - get 2nd gas
6:00 - start lair, roach warren, evo chamber
+1 missile attack asap
6:30 - third gas
third gas finishes - get fourth gas
7:00 - get third
Lair finishes - get roach speed What are the gas timings for a build where you take your Gas like at 16 or 17? When you play it with a Bane Nest to be safe in the early game and than go into roaches. I don´t want to play gasless until 4min and also don´t want to go Muta. Is there a build by Blade or someone else?
16 is 3:00, 17 is 3:10 more or less.
"Safe Roach Opener" ZvZ by Violet
9 Overlord
15 Pool
16 Hatch
15 Overlord
15 Queen + Gas
*Ling scout
Queen (3:50)
Speed (4:15)
Baneling Nest (5:00)
Lingxx3 (5:30)
Lingxx3 (6:10)
Lair (6:20)
Evo chamber (6:45)
Gasx3 (7:00)
Roach Warren (7:15)
+1 Ranged (7:45)
Roach Speed (8:10)
I took it from the op of the zerg help me thread. it's a very safe way (even a bit too much imo) to get to roaches.
|
The spire swarm host ZvZ doesnt get much econ. Not a great build.
|
On February 27 2014 01:14 Zorkmid wrote:
The spire swarm host ZvZ doesnt get much econ. Not a great build.
It's actually really awesome build. You get a huge tech lead and he can't just expand either since you got mutas while you actually can. Someone did an.. episode about his style in a game where i took out revival. It's the part of the guide i like the most and use every zvz.
|
Wow ! We need a guide like this for Terran, this looks amazing ! Congratz 
|
On February 27 2014 02:30 Incand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 01:14 Zorkmid wrote:
The spire swarm host ZvZ doesnt get much econ. Not a great build. It's actually really awesome build. You get a huge tech lead and he can't just expand either since you got mutas while you actually can. Someone did an.. episode about his style in a game where i took out revival. It's the part of the guide i like the most and use every zvz.
Doesn't even allow you to get a queen when your pool finishes.
|
I use this ZvZ style at top dia and win 80% of the games in which I don"t get 2 base ling bane all-inned (a weak point of mine). It is great, and the funny thing about it is my opponents don't understand what is happening and why then can't kill me with their R/H push like they were supposed to according to their play experience. I completely throws them off guard and they don't make the right decisions. It's quite funny that nobody seem to know this build, maybe because i'm playing in EU. I guess this guide has a lot more readers here on US server.
|
On February 27 2014 16:35 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 02:30 Incand wrote:On February 27 2014 01:14 Zorkmid wrote:
The spire swarm host ZvZ doesnt get much econ. Not a great build. It's actually really awesome build. You get a huge tech lead and he can't just expand either since you got mutas while you actually can. Someone did an.. episode about his style in a game where i took out revival. It's the part of the guide i like the most and use every zvz. Doesn't even allow you to get a queen when your pool finishes.
Uh the spire/sh build zvz doesn't sacrifice queen timing lol. It's a normal muta build zvz I don't get how you are saying you can't get a queen when your pool finishes this is 100% wrong.
|
On February 27 2014 21:37 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 16:35 Zorkmid wrote:On February 27 2014 02:30 Incand wrote:On February 27 2014 01:14 Zorkmid wrote:
The spire swarm host ZvZ doesnt get much econ. Not a great build. It's actually really awesome build. You get a huge tech lead and he can't just expand either since you got mutas while you actually can. Someone did an.. episode about his style in a game where i took out revival. It's the part of the guide i like the most and use every zvz. Doesn't even allow you to get a queen when your pool finishes. Uh the spire/sh build zvz doesn't sacrifice queen timing lol. It's a normal muta build zvz I don't get how you are saying you can't get a queen when your pool finishes this is 100% wrong.
If you go 15 pool, 16 hatch (as I assume your build is meant to do) you can't. Havent' tried the 15 hatch 16 pool variant.
|
On March 01 2014 04:27 Zorkmid wrote:
If you go 15 pool, 16 hatch (as I assume your build is meant to do) you can't. Havent' tried the 15 hatch 16 pool variant.
Yes you can.. But you should get it before an additional drone if that's what you mean.
15p
16h
15ol
15q
17ling
18gas
and then you start second queen just when the first one finish.. i usually que it up just a few sec before
and this isn't specific to his zvz style this is just the opening.. a very standard opening most people use.
|
On March 01 2014 04:27 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 21:37 blade55555 wrote:On February 27 2014 16:35 Zorkmid wrote:On February 27 2014 02:30 Incand wrote:On February 27 2014 01:14 Zorkmid wrote:
The spire swarm host ZvZ doesnt get much econ. Not a great build. It's actually really awesome build. You get a huge tech lead and he can't just expand either since you got mutas while you actually can. Someone did an.. episode about his style in a game where i took out revival. It's the part of the guide i like the most and use every zvz. Doesn't even allow you to get a queen when your pool finishes. Uh the spire/sh build zvz doesn't sacrifice queen timing lol. It's a normal muta build zvz I don't get how you are saying you can't get a queen when your pool finishes this is 100% wrong. If you go 15 pool, 16 hatch (as I assume your build is meant to do) you can't. Havent' tried the 15 hatch 16 pool variant.
I am not sure why you are saying you can't get a queen and stating it as a fact when you are wrong. You can and I do every time. And the build that I do is meant to do either hatch first or 15P, both work. The better one is obviously hatch first.
|
On March 01 2014 05:01 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2014 04:27 Zorkmid wrote:On February 27 2014 21:37 blade55555 wrote:On February 27 2014 16:35 Zorkmid wrote:On February 27 2014 02:30 Incand wrote:On February 27 2014 01:14 Zorkmid wrote:
The spire swarm host ZvZ doesnt get much econ. Not a great build. It's actually really awesome build. You get a huge tech lead and he can't just expand either since you got mutas while you actually can. Someone did an.. episode about his style in a game where i took out revival. It's the part of the guide i like the most and use every zvz. Doesn't even allow you to get a queen when your pool finishes. Uh the spire/sh build zvz doesn't sacrifice queen timing lol. It's a normal muta build zvz I don't get how you are saying you can't get a queen when your pool finishes this is 100% wrong. If you go 15 pool, 16 hatch (as I assume your build is meant to do) you can't. Havent' tried the 15 hatch 16 pool variant. I am not sure why you are saying you can't get a queen and stating it as a fact when you are wrong. You can and I do every time. And the build that I do is meant to do either hatch first or 15P, both work. The better one is obviously hatch first.
I would challenge anyone to go 9 overlord, 15 pool, 16 hatch, 17 gas, 17 overlord and be able to make an ovie as soon as the pool finishes.
|
On March 06 2014 18:00 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2014 05:01 blade55555 wrote:On March 01 2014 04:27 Zorkmid wrote:On February 27 2014 21:37 blade55555 wrote:On February 27 2014 16:35 Zorkmid wrote:On February 27 2014 02:30 Incand wrote:On February 27 2014 01:14 Zorkmid wrote:
The spire swarm host ZvZ doesnt get much econ. Not a great build. It's actually really awesome build. You get a huge tech lead and he can't just expand either since you got mutas while you actually can. Someone did an.. episode about his style in a game where i took out revival. It's the part of the guide i like the most and use every zvz. Doesn't even allow you to get a queen when your pool finishes. Uh the spire/sh build zvz doesn't sacrifice queen timing lol. It's a normal muta build zvz I don't get how you are saying you can't get a queen when your pool finishes this is 100% wrong. If you go 15 pool, 16 hatch (as I assume your build is meant to do) you can't. Havent' tried the 15 hatch 16 pool variant. I am not sure why you are saying you can't get a queen and stating it as a fact when you are wrong. You can and I do every time. And the build that I do is meant to do either hatch first or 15P, both work. The better one is obviously hatch first. I would challenge anyone to go 9 overlord, 15 pool, 16 hatch, 17 gas, 17 overlord and be able to make an ovie as soon as the pool finishes.
For team games I do 15 pool, 16 gas, 17 hatch, 16 queen, 18 OL. You will collect 2 larva while waiting for the OL to pop, but shouldn't go to three, so no larva wasted. If case you scout and hunt scouts or are behind with your OL compared to larva for whatever reason, you can build 2 OLs to not waste larva. Should work as well, or better, for pool hatch gas.
I am silver though, so don't trust the information with your life. :o)
|
Blade, how often do you end up building roaches in ZvT these days? Most pro ZvT games i see vs reaper openings get the third hatch started right when ling speed finishes and you have a brief map control window before hellion/reaper pressure begins. Then, they defend with queens/lings. I like the value of having a RW if you find they're going mech, but it seems less optimal to defend standard hellion/reaper pressure with roaches.
Sorry if this question has been answered already. Thanks!
Edit: Also! How do you feel about builds that choose lair before +1/+1? With the return of hellion/banshee openers to the meta, seems like faster overseers could be nice, though spores would work if you're careful about not getting them killed by ground units.
|
On March 07 2014 10:00 Lobotomist wrote:
Blade, how often do you end up building roaches in ZvT these days? Most pro ZvT games i see vs reaper openings get the third hatch started right when ling speed finishes and you have a brief map control window before hellion/reaper pressure begins. Then, they defend with queens/lings. I like the value of having a RW if you find they're going mech, but it seems less optimal to defend standard hellion/reaper pressure with roaches.
Sorry if this question has been answered already. Thanks!
Edit: Also! How do you feel about builds that choose lair before +1/+1? With the return of hellion/banshee openers to the meta, seems like faster overseers could be nice, though spores would work if you're careful about not getting them killed by ground units.
I am not playing sc2 these days and I wasn't building roaches unless I saw a lot of hellions or if I knew hellion/banshee. Vs reaper opening I would always get my 3rd 5:30-6 unless their reaper could delay it, then it would be as soon as my third finished as well.
Going lair before 1/1 is fine, but I know I prefer those upgrades even vs reaper/banshee.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
