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On December 14 2013 23:17 roym899 wrote:
I have a question regarding ZvZ. I actually kinda like the matchup when muta/ling vs muta/ling. But I'm a bit lost currently now that there are a lot more players going for some kind of 2 base roach timing where they get +1/+1 quite early and can push out vs my mutas which won't arrive in time to defend. Is it even possible to defend these timings going muta? Or should I get a roach warren myself once I scout very early double evolution chambers?
Yes it's possible to defend these timings. For starters being on top of your scouting is very important because the sooner you can see it coming the easier you can defend. You should be making a lot of spines when you see he's doing a roach timing and your mutas won't be too much later once he pushes out. Just make sure you make enough spines + ling support then mutas and you'll be ahead.
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Hi blade,
What are your third and fourth gas timings for your zvp swarm host builds?
I don't believe I see it in the guide.
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On December 17 2013 07:29 Bulgogi wrote:
Hi blade,
What are your third and fourth gas timings for your zvp swarm host builds?
I don't believe I see it in the guide.
3rd/4th when lair finishes and 5th/6th once 3rd is completely saturated are my normal timings.
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First, thanks blade for this awesome guide or maybe thanks for the second awesome guide from you.
In the period of time, since the start from HOTs until now you helped me a lot, improving my playstyle and especially my ZvP.
I have a question about the Muta vs Roach/Hydra in ZvZ.
If i play Muta and see him not going Muta aswell and i do not stop at arround 8-10 Mutas and instead go to 20-25. How would you switch? Or would you even switch? Would you get melee upgrades and play with ling bane muta until infestors and ultras? Or would you start range upgrades and go into hydra roach as well? Because if i go bane ling muta, i don´t know when to switch into infestors as well. Because if he does and i do not scout it, its game over because if he engages in a good position my banes are fucked.
Hope you can read it, english is not my mother tongue.
Greetings!
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United States113 Posts
very informative thread, i'm just getting back into sc2 after almost 2 years of not playing and i have to relearn everything so this has been a great help
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On December 18 2013 05:51 EXRNaRa wrote:
First, thanks blade for this awesome guide or maybe thanks for the second awesome guide from you.
In the period of time, since the start from HOTs until now you helped me a lot, improving my playstyle and especially my ZvP.
I have a question about the Muta vs Roach/Hydra in ZvZ.
If i play Muta and see him not going Muta aswell and i do not stop at arround 8-10 Mutas and instead go to 20-25. How would you switch? Or would you even switch? Would you get melee upgrades and play with ling bane muta until infestors and ultras? Or would you start range upgrades and go into hydra roach as well? Because if i go bane ling muta, i don´t know when to switch into infestors as well. Because if he does and i do not scout it, its game over because if he engages in a good position my banes are fucked.
Hope you can read it, english is not my mother tongue.
Greetings!
this is based on how you want to play. You can make 20-25 mutalisks (be wary of fungal) and go into ultralisks, you can go into roach, you can go into swarmhosts, etc. It's really based on how you want to play. There is no right or wrong answer in what to go to.
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On December 17 2013 10:23 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 07:29 Bulgogi wrote:
Hi blade,
What are your third and fourth gas timings for your zvp swarm host builds?
I don't believe I see it in the guide. 3rd/4th when lair finishes and 5th/6th once 3rd is completely saturated are my normal timings.
Does that go for the ZvT (muta/ling/bling) builds as well? Sorry if I missed it, thanks for a great guide. 
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On December 18 2013 21:39 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 10:23 blade55555 wrote:On December 17 2013 07:29 Bulgogi wrote:
Hi blade,
What are your third and fourth gas timings for your zvp swarm host builds?
I don't believe I see it in the guide. 3rd/4th when lair finishes and 5th/6th once 3rd is completely saturated are my normal timings. Does that go for the ZvT (muta/ling/bling) builds as well? Sorry if I missed it, thanks for a great guide.
Yeah, after I start 1/1 and start lair I start gas 3 + 4, then once I know my 3rd is about to be saturated I get my 5th and 6th.
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Hey Blade, i am a bit frustrated atm but what am i supposed to do against kiting?
I am maxed on ca. 20 SH 4 Vipers and rest hydra. I am killing parts of his army over and over again and than he just starts moving arround the map killing my bases and running away. Spines do not give a fuck about 200 supply protoss and he just moves away because my SH are too slow and my hydras are not good fighting alone.
This is so frustrating, got this game at 20min mark won and he just moves arround another 20min and at any point he just says hello carrier because i have no money left. I can not kill his bases and defend mine at the same time. when i wanted to attack one of his bases he just moved to one of mine, if i stayed at mine he just took 3 more.
Cannons also say good bye small unit packages.
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Hi Blade, do you plan to release another replay pack soon? Would be great to have some material to compare with the guide
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I've been trying to work banelings into my ZvP
How do you feel about 2 base Ling/bane all in vs Protoss FFE?
How about banes instead of roaches for FE 4 gate timings?
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On December 21 2013 18:01 EXRNaRa wrote:
Hey Blade, i am a bit frustrated atm but what am i supposed to do against kiting?
I am maxed on ca. 20 SH 4 Vipers and rest hydra. I am killing parts of his army over and over again and than he just starts moving arround the map killing my bases and running away. Spines do not give a fuck about 200 supply protoss and he just moves away because my SH are too slow and my hydras are not good fighting alone.
This is so frustrating, got this game at 20min mark won and he just moves arround another 20min and at any point he just says hello carrier because i have no money left. I can not kill his bases and defend mine at the same time. when i wanted to attack one of his bases he just moved to one of mine, if i stayed at mine he just took 3 more.
Cannons also say good bye small unit packages.
Ok first thing, 20 SH is too much. I would limit myself to 12 max. Having mass spines is helpful but having some roaches there as well once you see the warp prism.
On December 21 2013 19:49 PoulsenB wrote:Hi Blade, do you plan to release another replay pack soon? Would be great to have some material to compare with the guide
Some point I will not sure when yet.
On December 23 2013 16:03 StutteR wrote:
I've been trying to work banelings into my ZvP
How do you feel about 2 base Ling/bane all in vs Protoss FFE?
How about banes instead of roaches for FE 4 gate timings?
Not a huge fan of 2 base allins vs protoss, MSC makes 2 base pushes pretty bad and in general FF negates a ling/bane bust. I wouldn't recommend it. Same with vs 4 gate timings because banelings just aren't that good versus protoss.
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When facing gateway expand, there is always the possibility of a 4-gate timing designed to kill your third base. This attack can be held relatively easily as long as the Zerg player sees it coming. The easiest way to deal with this attack is to prevent the pylon from going up, which is possible as long as the Zerg player has speedlings looking around.
A good way to prevent it is to have six lings scouting around for common pylon locations and making sure to keep tabs on the Protoss army when it moves out. If you don't manage to deny the pylon, you'll be forced to make a ton of speedlings and overwhelm the push before he gets many warp-ins done.
Throwing down a roach warren is never a bad idea at around 6:15-6:30 if you think the Protoss is going to be very aggressive. Otherwise you can just wait start lair then get a roach warren and evolution chamber.
I loose every game vs Protoss if he does his dumb 4 Gate from 2 bases. He warps in at 6:15 and my roachwarren is started at six. Lings do not give a fuck about the first 4 Zealots, and than there come the next 4 + MS. What should you do? I just dont get it. The moment the pylon is up i loose the game, thats a joke. There is not enough larva at my just finished 3 to build roaches there and if my roaches spawn they are way too far away. My 3 goes down for sure and i have lost the game with to a dumb 2 base allin.
Do you have any VODs where you face this?
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On December 26 2013 20:55 EXRNaRa wrote:Show nested quote +When facing gateway expand, there is always the possibility of a 4-gate timing designed to kill your third base. This attack can be held relatively easily as long as the Zerg player sees it coming. The easiest way to deal with this attack is to prevent the pylon from going up, which is possible as long as the Zerg player has speedlings looking around.
A good way to prevent it is to have six lings scouting around for common pylon locations and making sure to keep tabs on the Protoss army when it moves out. If you don't manage to deny the pylon, you'll be forced to make a ton of speedlings and overwhelm the push before he gets many warp-ins done.
Throwing down a roach warren is never a bad idea at around 6:15-6:30 if you think the Protoss is going to be very aggressive. Otherwise you can just wait start lair then get a roach warren and evolution chamber. I loose every game vs Protoss if he does his dumb 4 Gate from 2 bases. He warps in at 6:15 and my roachwarren is started at six. Lings do not give a fuck about the first 4 Zealots, and than there come the next 4 + MS. What should you do? I just dont get it. The moment the pylon is up i loose the game, thats a joke. There is not enough larva at my just finished 3 to build roaches there and if my roaches spawn they are way too far away. My 3 goes down for sure and i have lost the game with to a dumb 2 base allin. Do you have any VODs where you face this?
1. 4 gate off 2 bases is not dumb nor an all-in.
2. The standard vs 4gate is not 6 min RW but 5:30 (if you want to go for it, I prefer to deny pylons with more or less 14 speedlings).
3. You reacting badly to a scouted build and losing is not a joke, it's you doing errors.
4. Your second queen should spread creep and head to the third base (so you inject when it pops and have larvae ready to make your roaches from there).
5. Still, make some lings to scout around the pylons, that helps a lot because you can delay his attack or make him not do it at all.
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On December 26 2013 20:55 EXRNaRa wrote:Show nested quote +When facing gateway expand, there is always the possibility of a 4-gate timing designed to kill your third base. This attack can be held relatively easily as long as the Zerg player sees it coming. The easiest way to deal with this attack is to prevent the pylon from going up, which is possible as long as the Zerg player has speedlings looking around.
A good way to prevent it is to have six lings scouting around for common pylon locations and making sure to keep tabs on the Protoss army when it moves out. If you don't manage to deny the pylon, you'll be forced to make a ton of speedlings and overwhelm the push before he gets many warp-ins done.
Throwing down a roach warren is never a bad idea at around 6:15-6:30 if you think the Protoss is going to be very aggressive. Otherwise you can just wait start lair then get a roach warren and evolution chamber. I loose every game vs Protoss if he does his dumb 4 Gate from 2 bases. He warps in at 6:15 and my roachwarren is started at six. Lings do not give a fuck about the first 4 Zealots, and than there come the next 4 + MS. What should you do? I just dont get it. The moment the pylon is up i loose the game, thats a joke. There is not enough larva at my just finished 3 to build roaches there and if my roaches spawn they are way too far away. My 3 goes down for sure and i have lost the game with to a dumb 2 base allin. Do you have any VODs where you face this?
I have some on my stream and youtube. But as I said in there it's easy to kill as long as you see it coming. If it catches you by surprise you are going to probably take a lot of damage from it. If you have speedlings scouting everywhere and overlords in common pylon positions you won't be surprised by this. You'll be able to deny the pylon and if not you'll be able to make a round of lings and overwhelm it before he gets too many zealots.
You are making mistakes if you are scouting it and still taking a lot of damage (not making enough units or attacking in a bad position, either way if you scout it before he even has his first warp in a round of lings and you should be able to clean it up before it gets to scary.)
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What do you do against mass voidray + archon + maybe some carriers + high templars ?
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On December 27 2013 05:39 nucLeaRTV wrote:
What do you do against mass voidray + archon + maybe some carriers + high templars ?
Swarmhost/viper/hydra, sometimes add in a few ultras for that and then use abduct + hydra to kill the air.
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Do you have any replays of the Roach Allin Build against gateway expands? And are you supposed to have full saturation on both bases, or cut drones?
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On December 27 2013 09:14 CivilAnarchy wrote:
Do you have any replays of the Roach Allin Build against gateway expands? And are you supposed to have full saturation on both bases, or cut drones?
You won't have 2 saturated bases, well in terms of mineral you will be but you will only be mining off of 2-3 gas.
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Hey Blade! I just played a ZvT on Daidalos. So its quite a big map with Tons of open space. I have problems facing mech so or so but this time he did something that made it unbeatable for me.
I went to like 12-14 SH after i defended arround 5 Blueflame helion attacks with 6 helions with roaches (Weird sentence).
So i was on 4 Bases had my economy going and started teching into hydras (for banshee defence ect.) and build my hive and greater spire.
He took his third and spread tanks in a huge line in front of his third which made it untouchable.
I got my BL up with some corrupters and my SH and thats it. I did not want to make too much ground units because he had a shittone of Tanks and Thors and the rest of the usual mech stuff. So i attacked with my force at his third, and he just split his army and moved arround to kill my 4th and 5th the same time. My BL were too slow and i could not catch his army.
What to do against a mech terran who just counter attacks with his huge ground force and avoid your BL?
My army was quite immobile with the BL as my main army comp. I could have beat his army with ease, but the map did not allowed me to prevent him from running arround me. Are BL not good for fighting mech or is there a limit for a BL count? So you can have still a mobile ground force. Because normaly i dislike it to have a lot of roach hydra like you recommend it most of the time in this guide, because it just melts vs tanks.
And if i just send my Roach Hydra (Viper) back he kills my BL or if i sent everything back my BLs are too slow and get shot down by Vikings. Hard to describe.
Hope you can read it, excuse my english please.
PS: Do you offer coaching?
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EPT
