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I imagine i'm one of the many Zerg players who were very curious what Blade would have to say about late game comps vs Protoss. I feel a bit disappointed. I'm sorry but ultra/hydra/swarm host/infestor/viper just doesn't seem like a really viable composition, since it presupposes mining from 8 - 10 gases with virtually no harassment. Lose one base to zealots or lose more than 10 workers and getting almost every late-game zerg unit simultaneously is not realistic. I know this is an ideal comp, but still am frustrated that you actually need to get all that and have perfect micro to have a chance.
2 things. 1st, it's obvious you haven't played with this unit composition often, if at all. 2nd, It's painfully obvious you haven't watched many of Blades games. He's got literally hundreds of games (lots of replay packs), all on the Korean server vs nothing but High Masters and GMs. Now I can't speak for Blades exact Z vs P win percentage but from all the games I've watched it has to be something at least 75% + (probably much higher). He laughably crushes most opponents with this exact unit composition.
Anyways, Z vs P is by far Blades best MU.......so that unit composition that your bashing works REMARKABLY well.
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On September 08 2013 15:33 xxjcdentonxx wrote:Show nested quote +The last common reaction to the muta/swarm host players composition is for the other Zerg to tech to mutalisks himself. Their goal is to kill the swarm hosts and regain map control. This shouldn’t ever really work because the muta/swarm host player will have +1 attack and he can add more mutalisks to supplement his count. This strategy is more of a desperate gamble from an opponent and shouldn’t work, even if un-scouted. I didn't understand this, because if the other player skips swarm hosts and continuously makes mutalisks, they can also have +1 attack as well as more mutalisks.
It's when the zerg is transitioning from roach/hydra/infestor into muta. So no his attack will still be later.
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I have a question, the first ZvT build is 16 pool 16 gas against reaper expand.
Why not 15-15? I saw life doing it plenty of time and it works better for when the reaper comes into your main your lings are more near to completing then with the 16-16. Ofc it depends on the map. Also your queens are out a bit earlier.
It is maybe something small but it could save you a drone or 2 
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On September 08 2013 20:57 AmuseD wrote:I have a question, the first ZvT build is 16 pool 16 gas against reaper expand. Why not 15-15? I saw life doing it plenty of time and it works better for when the reaper comes into your main your lings are more near to completing then with the 16-16. Ofc it depends on the map. Also your queens are out a bit earlier. It is maybe something small but it could save you a drone or 2
The 16 pool 16 gas you get lings out as well. A zerg shouldn't lose drones to the reaper with the 16 pool 16 gas as lings pop out in time.
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On September 09 2013 01:06 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2013 20:57 AmuseD wrote:I have a question, the first ZvT build is 16 pool 16 gas against reaper expand. Why not 15-15? I saw life doing it plenty of time and it works better for when the reaper comes into your main your lings are more near to completing then with the 16-16. Ofc it depends on the map. Also your queens are out a bit earlier. It is maybe something small but it could save you a drone or 2 The 16 pool 16 gas you get lings out as well. A zerg shouldn't lose drones to the reaper with the 16 pool 16 gas as lings pop out in time.
Ofcourse, BUt don't you think that 15-15 is a bit safer for the lower leagues?
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Nice guide well written overall. although i'd say the standard ling baneling muta zvt is poorly detailed (talk flanking/scouting/positioning/decision making/unit control vs mines nextime), while mech isnt used at all because much less powerful than terran bio. I'd expected a much more thorough guide than standard benchmarks and all-ins options.
being highmasters myself, this thread doesnt adress the struggles i have zvt.
my very own zvt suggestions :+ Show Spoiler +
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blade thanks first of all for writing this guide, it's pretty helpful and a great place to start out with. I'm curious though about the zvz 3queen roach build. You didn't list any timing for getting a baneling nest, thus meaning you have to defend with queens, wall, etc vs speedling allins, but on some maps you can't wall off before the zerg hits you with their mass speedlings or banelings, etc. You have any suggestions for this or do I just need to try a different build on those maps that are hard to wall off?
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On September 09 2013 09:39 Gojira621 wrote:
blade thanks first of all for writing this guide, it's pretty helpful and a great place to start out with. I'm curious though about the zvz 3queen roach build. You didn't list any timing for getting a baneling nest, thus meaning you have to defend with queens, wall, etc vs speedling allins, but on some maps you can't wall off before the zerg hits you with their mass speedlings or banelings, etc. You have any suggestions for this or do I just need to try a different build on those maps that are hard to wall off?
To be honest I just put it in because a friend of mine wrote the build order down and all that. I have never done it, but normally with these roach builds you get a roach warren instead of the baneling nest.
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On September 09 2013 09:41 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 09:39 Gojira621 wrote:
blade thanks first of all for writing this guide, it's pretty helpful and a great place to start out with. I'm curious though about the zvz 3queen roach build. You didn't list any timing for getting a baneling nest, thus meaning you have to defend with queens, wall, etc vs speedling allins, but on some maps you can't wall off before the zerg hits you with their mass speedlings or banelings, etc. You have any suggestions for this or do I just need to try a different build on those maps that are hard to wall off? To be honest I just put it in because a friend of mine wrote the build order down and all that. I have never done it, but normally with these roach builds you get a roach warren instead of the baneling nest.
oh. well the build order says to get roach warren at 6 min and thats around the time youll get hit with 30 speedlings, thus leaving you with nothing to defend.
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On September 09 2013 09:43 Gojira621 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2013 09:41 blade55555 wrote:On September 09 2013 09:39 Gojira621 wrote:
blade thanks first of all for writing this guide, it's pretty helpful and a great place to start out with. I'm curious though about the zvz 3queen roach build. You didn't list any timing for getting a baneling nest, thus meaning you have to defend with queens, wall, etc vs speedling allins, but on some maps you can't wall off before the zerg hits you with their mass speedlings or banelings, etc. You have any suggestions for this or do I just need to try a different build on those maps that are hard to wall off? To be honest I just put it in because a friend of mine wrote the build order down and all that. I have never done it, but normally with these roach builds you get a roach warren instead of the baneling nest. oh. well the build order says to get roach warren at 6 min and thats around the time youll get hit with 30 speedlings, thus leaving you with nothing to defend.
Well with queens + evo chamber + roach warren + spine crawler you should be able to wall off no problem. I can't think of a map that you can't wall off with tbh.
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Hey, I asked this earlier but maybe you missed it. When are the normal gas timings for 3rd-6th gas if you open gasless 4 queen? Thanks!
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On September 09 2013 12:53 schwza wrote:
Hey, I asked this earlier but maybe you missed it. When are the normal gas timings for 3rd-6th gas if you open gasless 4 queen? Thanks!
In zvz? You take your gas once you saturate both bases (the 3-4 gas). The 5th-6th gas really depends on what you want to go into. If you plan on doing pure roaches you don't need to take them for awhile unless you are doing a more passive roach style, if you are doing that then you should take them once your third is about to be saturated.
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Thanks for posting, great guide.
The muta/swarm host zvz build is awesome - I've been using it since you posted it a couple of months ago. Quite a few people on the ladder are surprised and have never seen it before. I'm curious - what is the best counter to it do you think? The only times I lose zvz now is either a surprise early ling rush or in a muta/ling/bling war.
Also, is the +1 air attack really worth it? I've found I only build about 8-9 mutas for map control and to hold off the roach rush - by the time +1 kicks in the mutas aren't that important anymore.
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Thank you, this will me a lot.
i changed my race two months ago , so thaat was what i needed :-)
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I love you Blade, and everyone who helped in the redaction of this awesome guide. Exactly what I needed to get back on track.
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A work of art Blade & TL team! I like clear principles laid out: Prioritize the 2/2 over more mutalisks.
I was hoping that you could expand on the Ling/Bane/Muta. One my biggest challenges has been deciding spending gas on banelings or mutas - which do you prioritise and to what mix/level? Seems that banes can spend ALOT of gas quickly.
Lastly, when do you prioritise overlord speed: "Zerg should have overlord speed while teching to lair". Is it before or after Bane Nest?
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We want protoss guide too! =) well done anyway
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Would you accept it, if i would translate this guide into german and post it in the Battle.net forums?
There is already a thread but i think you would get even more readers if there would be a version in another language.
Many people do not have the time translating everything if there english isn´t well enough :-)
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i got a question blade55555 .. do you know any vods of pros/high master/gm in zvt where they incorporate swarmhost vs bio-mine ? or if ever you have played one .. i would love to see it .. thanks
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EPT
